Culture

[Emcee77]

26 yrs old here. I've been in a relationship for a long time but almost all of my friends/roommates use dating apps. From my experience that article is very extreme. Idk I'm sure it's different in the south than in New York like that article was focused on, but that seemed way over the top from what I've experienced/seen.

Agreed. There is certainly plenty of that grossness here in Chicago, but almost all the single people I know, the vast majority of whom are not gross, creepy, sexually amoral people, use dating apps.

I'm very cynical about most claims that social media fundamentally change the way we interact. There are a lot of creeps out there, but there always were. The apps make it easier for the creeps to meet people, but I don't think the apps make the people using them creeps. In fact, I doubt the people using those apps interact much differently than they would if they met at a bar. One guy even suggests that in the article right? "It's just a numbers game." These apps are just an easier way to meet people, and plenty of perfectly nice, non-creepy people use them. My wife's best friend is on the verge of engagement to a guy she met on Hinge.

At the risk of sounding NRA-ish, my position is that it's not the technology. It's (some of) the people using it.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

At the risk of sounding NRA-ish, my position is that it's not the technology. It's (some of) the people using it.

I don't disagree with that at all. The problem is that our culture now tolerates such selfish antisocial behavior, and it's becoming more normalized with each passing year. Several decades ago, these sorts of practices would have been unthinkable, even if the technology to facilitate them had existed.

 

[gkIrish]

I don't disagree with that at all. The problem is that our culture now tolerates such selfish antisocial behavior, and it's becoming more normalized with each passing year. Several decades ago, these sorts of practices would have been unthinkable, even if the technology to facilitate them had existed.

It doesn't help that you can find the following articles on the front page of cnn.com today:

Monogamy: Who needs it? - CNN.com
Scheduling sex: How much sex should you be having? - CNN.com

 

[Whiskeyjack]

It doesn't help that you can find the following articles on the front page of cnn.com today:

Monogamy: Who needs it? - CNN.com
Scheduling sex: How much sex should you be having? - CNN.com

#Decline

 

[wizards8507]

I don't disagree with that at all. The problem is that our culture now tolerates such selfish antisocial behavior, and it's becoming more normalized with each passing year. Several decades ago, these sorts of practices would have been unthinkable, even if the technology to facilitate them had existed.

It's really sad how pervasive it is, too. You kind of expect this sort of thing with urban twenty-somethings, but it's also infecting families. I was at Walt Disney World for nine nights last week, and the amount of parents and children alike completely buried in their devices was heartbreaking.

 

[pkt77242]

It doesn't help that you can find the following articles on the front page of cnn.com today:

Monogamy: Who needs it? - CNN.com
Scheduling sex: How much sex should you be having? - CNN.com

While I understand your point with the first one, the second one doesn't seem to fit your point.

 

[gkIrish]

While I understand your point with the first one, the second one doesn't seem to fit your point.

The whole point of the article is to investigate what amount of sex is the right amount of sex. To me, sex shouldn't be something you schedule ahead of time or make sure you do X amount of times per week. It's about expressing your love and affection for another person.

 

[ACamp1900]

The whole point of the article is to investigate what amount of sex is the right amount of sex. To me, sex shouldn't be something you schedule ahead of time or make sure you do X amount of times per week. It's about expressing your love and affection for another person, or in some cases, numerous other people....

.

 

[pkt77242]

The whole point of the article is to investigate what amount of sex is the right amount of sex. To me, sex shouldn't be something you schedule ahead of time or make sure you do X amount of times per week. It's about expressing your love and affection for another person.

Because you are single. Wait till you are married, and have 3 small children running around (or even that first one when they are real small). Time, energy, etc. run low.

 

[zelezo vlk]

.

 

[ACamp1900]

For the record, "Steak and BJ Thursday" is something that by it's very nature must be scheduled and it's all about "love and affection".....

 

[connor_in]

...and you guys haven't even brought up the married douchenozzles that use those or an ashley madison and other sites to hook up and cheat on their spouse

 

[GoldenDome]

I don't disagree with that at all. The problem is that our culture now tolerates such selfish antisocial behavior, and it's becoming more normalized with each passing year. Several decades ago, these sorts of practices would have been unthinkable, even if the technology to facilitate them had existed.

I don't want to sound rude, but can't this argument be said about any older age cohort to a younger? I would say that people, no matter what age cohort were selfish and self absorbed, technology just is a more public avenue of broadcasting it.

 

[gkIrish]

Because you are single. Wait till you are married, and have 3 small children running around (or even that first one when they are real small). Time, energy, etc. run low.

I get what you are saying and I'm sure I'll do the same thing when I get married. I'm just commenting on American culture in general. Sex is now all about numbers. How many people have you had sex with? How many times? How long did you last? It's just disheartening to me.

I'm as horny as any other guy and I've had my fair share of the pie so to speak so I'm being a bit hypocritical. But I do genuinely wish the dating app culture and the need for all my friends to discuss our sexcapades went away. How am I going to look my future daughter in the eye and give her advice on boys if I go around looking for skanks every day. Sex should be fun and private IMO, not pervasive throughout our culture.

As a wise man once said...

I want a lady in the streets but a freak in the bed.

 

[pkt77242]

I might be misinterpreting, but I think he meant that the premise of the article treats sex as a vitamin or supplement where you just hit your quota, as opposed to a loving act between man and wife. A loving act, that can be planned and scheduled, but it's not anywhere near the same good as a daily multivitamin or a biweekly trip to the gym. It's much better and more important.

But I can't read minds, so I can be wrong.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

Huh? I didn't get that vibe at all from the article.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Huh? I didn't get that vibe at all from the article.

Well my bad.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

 

[pkt77242]

I get what you are saying and I'm sure I'll do the same thing when I get married. I'm just commenting on American culture in general. Sex is now all about numbers. How many people have you had sex with? How many times? How long did you last? It's just disheartening to me.

I'm as horny as any other guy and I've had my fair share of the pie so to speak so I'm being a bit hypocritical. But I do genuinely wish the dating app culture and the need for all my friends to discuss our sexcapades went away. How am I going to look my future daughter in the eye and give her advice on boys if I go around looking for skanks every day. Sex should be fun and private IMO, not pervasive throughout our culture.

As a wise man once said...

I want a lady in the streets but a freak in the bed.

I completely agree with what you are saying.

But I just thought that the second article didn't articulate that (the first article you linked to did). The second article is about people in committed relationships finding a balance in their sex life that makes them happy and that studies show that happiness generally plateaus around once a week (having more sex doesn't make people less happy it just doesn't increase happiness). To me that is the kind of advice that many couples need but won't actively seek. Especially when you see all the magazines having the latest fads i.e. "have sex every day for a month".

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I don't want to sound rude, but can't this argument be said about any older age cohort to a younger? I would say that people, no matter what age cohort were selfish and self absorbed, technology just is a more public avenue of broadcasting it.

Nothing rude there. That's actually a very common defense of the status quo; that all previous generations have been just like we are now, only we're finally being honest about it. And there's some truth to it. People have always been tempted to act selfishly (fallen state of man, etc.)

But the most important function of culture is in discouraging selfish behavior, and channeling our desires and instincts in a way that is socially beneficially. Different cultures have achieved that end through different ways and with varying degrees of success over time. My argument is that our modern culture, under the pretense of "liberating" individuals to pursue their own ends, has become alarmingly ineffective at discouraging selfish behavior.

That's a big problem because civilization is only made possible by shared moral norms which encourage people toward discipline and cooperation. When those moral norms start to fray, it undermines the basic fabric of society. The ancient Greeks and Romans built impressive civilizations long before our own, but they fell due to the same sort of cultural decline we're witnessing today within the West.

 

[gkIrish]

I completely agree with what you are saying.

But I just thought that the second article didn't articulate that (the first article you linked to did). The second article is about people in committed relationships finding a balance in their sex life that makes them happy and that studies show that happiness generally plateaus around once a week (having more sex doesn't make people less happy it just doesn't increase happiness). To me that is the kind of advice that many couples need but won't actively seek. Especially when you see all the magazines having the latest fads i.e. "have sex every day for a month".

That's a fair way to interpret the article. Even if my interpretation is wrong, I think the headline itself is harmful enough, though.

I'm not saying people shouldn't have lots of sex, I'm just saying it shouldn't be a bragging point or a quota.

 

[NorthDakota]

That's a fair way to interpret the article. Even if my interpretation is wrong, I think the headline itself is harmful enough, though.

I'm not saying people shouldn't have lots of sex, I'm just saying it shouldn't be a bragging point or a quota.

I'm with you, brother. I'd be more than happy to facilitate an arranged marriage between you and my sister. How do you feel about pharmacists?

 

[pkt77242]

That's a fair way to interpret the article. Even if my interpretation is wrong, I think the headline itself is harmful enough, though.

I'm not saying people shouldn't have lots of sex, I'm just saying it shouldn't be a bragging point or a quota.

Agreed about the headline, pure clickbait.

 

[gkIrish]

I'm with you, brother. I'd be more than happy to facilitate an arranged marriage between you and my sister. How do you feel about pharmacists?

 

[Irish#1]

Nothing rude there. That's actually a very common defense of the status quo; that all previous generations have been just like we are now, only we're finally being honest about it. And there's some truth to it. People have always been tempted to act selfishly (fallen state of man, etc.)

But the most important function of culture is in discouraging selfish behavior, and channeling our desires and instincts in a way that is socially beneficially. Different cultures have achieved that end through different ways and with varying degrees of success over time. My argument is that our modern culture, under the pretense of "liberating" individuals to pursue their own ends, has become alarmingly ineffective at discouraging selfish behavior.

That's a big problem because civilization is only made possible by shared moral norms which encourage people toward discipline and cooperation. When those moral norms start to fray, it undermines the basic fabric of society. The ancient Greeks and Romans built impressive civilizations long before our own, but they fell due to the same sort of cultural decline we're witnessing today within the West.

You can blame Helen Gurley Brown and Gloria Steinem.

 

[GoldenDome]

Nothing rude there. That's actually a very common defense of the status quo; that all previous generations have been just like we are now, only we're finally being honest about it. And there's some truth to it. People have always been tempted to act selfishly (fallen state of man, etc.)

But the most important function of culture is in discouraging selfish behavior, and channeling our desires and instincts in a way that is socially beneficially. Different cultures have achieved that end through different ways and with varying degrees of success over time. My argument is that our modern culture, under the pretense of "liberating" individuals to pursue their own ends, has become alarmingly ineffective at discouraging selfish behavior.

That's a big problem because civilization is only made possible by shared moral norms which encourage people toward discipline and cooperation. When those moral norms start to fray, it undermines the basic fabric of society. The ancient Greeks and Romans built impressive civilizations long before our own, but they fell due to the same sort of cultural decline we're witnessing today within the West.

Cultural decline or just closing a distance gap of foreign behaviors? Again, had similar behavior gone on 30 years ago, I doubt anyone would know about it because of the technology available. In years past, behaviors such as these were not exactly extinct from humanity, such as visiting brothels to massage parlors to LA Weekly back page. One can argue that culture has improved in areas and declined in others, such as improved women's rights to declined human interaction.

But even as we communicate through Irish Envy, you have to admit there are some social benefits as far as diversity of thought through social discourse occurring. Take the good with the bad I guess.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Cultural decline or just closing a distance gap of foreign behaviors? Again, had similar behavior gone on 30 years ago, I doubt anyone would know about it because of the technology available. In years past, behaviors such as these were not exactly extinct from humanity, such as visiting brothels to massage parlors to LA Weekly back page.

It's not the specific harm caused by each discreet instance of such behavior, but the harm done to our culture that normalizing such behavior causes. Yes, there have always been brothels; and this side of the Second Coming, there always will be. But in years past, men could not openly enjoy casual extra-marital sex, and few women (aside from those who had no other choice) would accept the risks it carried. Now it's portrayed as perfectly normal in our media; with some even arguing that this development is a good thing.

It's not, because as I touched on before, civilization is contingent upon a shared culture that encourages discipline and self-sacrifice. Forming stable marriages and rearing children is crucial to the survival of any society; yet that's becoming more and more difficult in the West because we're unable to condemn selfish and antisocial sexual behaviors.

One can argue that culture has improved in areas and declined in others, such as improved women's rights to declined human interaction.

But even as we communicate through Irish Envy, you have to admit there are some social benefits as far as diversity of thought through social discourse occurring. Take the good with the bad I guess.

Absolutely. A big part of the reason we're so much wealthier today than our forebears is because our society has become radically more inclusive (which tends to vindicate several foundational aspects of Catholic social thought about what human flourishing entails and what makes us truly happy, but I digress...)

The problem comes in when the pursuit of inclusion causes us to reject truth; when we give up our religion in the interest of diversity. As any married man can tell you, love does not consist of affirming another's lifestyle choices, regardless of what they might be; love consists of wanting the Good for another person, and doing whatever is possible to help them achieve it. That often involves saying no, and prodding others to do the needful thing, to put others before themselves.

But that's not what modern gender and sexual ideology is about.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I am sorry for bringing in low brow humor to this conversation, but this whole conversation today has been reminding me of this line from Fast Times.....You see this month's Playboy? Bo Derek's tits... I like sex.

 

[ACamp1900]

I am sorry for bringing in low brow humor to this conversation, but this whole conversation today has been reminding me of this line from Fast Times.....You see this month's Playboy? Bo Derek's tits... I like sex.

It fascinated me how serious everyone took the topic, I was throwing out a few cracks like:

 

[greyhammer90]

It's not the specific harm caused by each discreet instance of such behavior, but the harm done to our culture that normalizing such behavior causes. Yes, there have always been brothels; and this side of the Second Coming, there always will be. But in years past, men could not openly enjoy casual extra-marital sex, and few women (aside from those who had no other choice) would accept the risks it carried. Now it's portrayed as perfectly normal in our media; with some even arguing that this development is a good thing.

It's not, because as I touched on before, civilization is contingent upon a shared culture that encourages discipline and self-sacrifice. Forming stable marriages and rearing children is crucial to the survival of any society; yet that's becoming more and more difficult in the West because we're unable to condemn selfish and antisocial sexual behaviors.



Absolutely. A big part of the reason we're so much wealthier today than our forebears is because our society has become radically more inclusive (which tends to vindicate several foundational aspects of Catholic social thought about what human flourishing entails and what makes us truly happy, but I digress...)

The problem comes in when the pursuit of inclusion causes us to reject truth; when we give up our religion in the interest of diversity. As any married man can tell you, love does not consist of affirming another's lifestyle choices, regardless of what they might be; love consists of wanting the Good for another person, and doing whatever is possible to help them achieve it. That often involves saying no, and prodding others to do the needful thing, to put others before themselves.

But that's not what modern gender and sexual ideology is about.

Whiskeyjack saying that what he perceives to be positive social changes are in line with Catholic doctrine, but that the negative social changes that are slowly dooming us all are not in line with Catholic doctrine?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Whiskeyjack saying that what he perceives to be positive social changes are in line with Catholic doctrine, but that the negative social changes that are slowly dooming us all are not in line with Catholic doctrine?

"... at least it's an ethos."

Having recourse to 2,000 years of coherent scholarship on morality is helpful.

 

[Legacy]

Perhaps it's worth considering the changes in another culture which have an Asian concept of sex and arguably more rapid changes in urbanization, financial opportunities, increased individualism, generational differences, feminine role transformations, acceptance of alternative sexual roles - China.

China's Generational Cultural Change

China's Sexual Revolution Has Reached The Point Of No Return

Women's Roles in China: Changes Over Time

How would you frame the discussion on their cultural changes with respect to their religious and traditional cultural beliefs?