Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

[kmoose]

We've had recruiting classes averaging around #10 since 2011, meaning anything worse than top 10 is underperforming.

Alabama has had recruiting classes averaging around #1, since 2011. I suppose anything other than the National Championship will be underperforming?

 

[ACamp1900]

Alabama has had recruiting classes averaging around #1, since 2011. I suppose anything other than the National Championship will be underperforming?

I haven't read a bama board in my life, but I'll just about guarantee this is exactly how their boards sound/feel currently...

 

[gkIrish]

Alabama has had recruiting classes averaging around #1, since 2011. I suppose anything other than the National Championship will be underperforming?

Actually, yes!

*edit: yes, in terms of their fans expectation. Would I consider a top 5 finish underperforming? No. But when we have top 10 classes, we should have top 10 finishes once every other year or so. So far, just once in five years.

 

[NDohio]

I think that BK had to learn how to recruit to ND. I truly believe that with his first few classes he wasn't in tune to the kind of student-athlete that could handle ND. These last two classes have been stellar in that area(except Koon's hero) and the results on the field are showing that.

Top ten classes are worthless if they can't handle the rigor of football and academics.

Ultimately, I guess I am not sure why we are revisiting BK from the past. 2015 BK has improved on his ability to build a better staff, recruit to the ND standards, hire a good play-caller, actually have a special teams, etc.

I think BK is moving in the right direction.

 

[ND NYC]

not trolling...(thought I saw/heard this somewhere)...and im old so my memory not what it used to be to actually recalll, but has BK ever had a win over a top 5 team? over a top 10 team?

 

[IrishSteelhead]

Brian Kelly Revisited

not trolling...(thought I saw/heard this somewhere)...and im old so my memory not what it used to be to actually recalll, but has BK ever had a win over a top 5 team? over a top 10 team?

2012 Stanford finished 7th off the top of my head


*2013 MSU finished 3rd

 

[IrishLion]

I think that BK had to learn how to recruit to ND. I truly believe that with his first few classes he wasn't in tune to the kind of student-athlete that could handle ND. These last two classes have been stellar in that area(except Koon's hero) and the results on the field are showing that.

Top ten classes are worthless if they can't handle the rigor of football and academics.

Ultimately, I guess I am not sure why we are revisiting BK from the past. 2015 BK has improved on his ability to build a better staff, recruit to the ND standards, hire a good play-caller, actually have a special teams, etc.

I think BK is moving in the right direction.

This is an excellent post. The '13 and '14 classes have built a foundation that the '11 and '12 couldn't provide. And the way this team has responded to injuries and transfers thus far reflect that.

 

[Buster Bluth]

But when we have top 10 classes, we should have top 10 finishes once every other year or so. So far, just once in five years.

Yeah but you have to give him time to get the program up, so any logical person would have to hold off from counting 2010 and 2011, no? I mean that's just unrealistic considering the situation Weis left.

As for 2012 onward, well if they finish in the top ten this year, which seems fairly likely, that'd be 2/4 years. So in my view it's right on pace with your requirement.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Alabama has had recruiting classes averaging around #1, since 2011. I suppose anything other than the National Championship will be underperforming?

The answer to that is simply... yes. Bama has the talent every year to win the NC. But I don't know if fans of any team realize just how hard that is these days. I still think the 2010 team was Bama's most talented team during Saban's tenure and they stunk the place up.

As far as this particular thread.....I think the jury is still out on Kelly. He is a good coach but hasn't been able to make that leap to the elite category. Just can't be satisfied with making the playoffs. There are no participation trophy's in CFB.

 

[fightingirish26]

If you guys had just followed a simple rule of thumb in this world (to never listen to a man united fan's opinion) then none of this would've ever happened

 

[Irish#1]

Brian Kelly has been able to recruit top 10 classes on average since he started here. Therefore he has, in fact, had the talent to be a top 10 team on a consistent basis.

Yet, since 2010, we have finished in the top 15......



ONCE

And the top 25 only twice.
If that doesn't blow your mind I don't know what else I can say. Debunk that one.

The problem is the unknown variables. A top ten recruiting class simply means you have the physical talent to be a good football team. The mental aspect once a kid takes a leap from HS to college is the biggest unknown variable. How do they adapt? Do they struggle with classes, do they get homesick, do they let other distractions (girls, parties, etc.) take up time that should be devoted to football or the classroom? How many kids never live up to their rankings? Happens everywhere all the time. The academic side at ND makes that more difficult than most, so you have to get the highly ranked kids that fit the ND mold. While BK has had ranked classes, his first few years we saw where we lost some because they weren't a good fit for ND. Look at BK's classes recently and the makeup of the kids is considerably different IMO. I think BK had to learn that and he did.

 

[Irish YJ]

The problem is the unknown variables. A top ten recruiting class simply means you have the physical talent to be a good football team. The mental aspect once a kid takes a leap from HS to college is the biggest unknown variable. How do they adapt? Do they struggle with classes, do they get homesick, do they let other distractions (girls, parties, etc.) take up time that should be devoted to football or the classroom? How many kids never live up to their rankings? Happens everywhere all the time. The academic side at ND makes that more difficult than most, so you have to get the highly ranked kids that fit the ND mold. While BK has had ranked classes, his first few years we saw where we lost some because they weren't a good fit for ND. Look at BK's classes recently and the makeup of the kids is considerably different IMO. I think BK had to learn that and he did.

Agree with all the above. But all the above is also a coaches responsibility. I'd also add the depth issues and how those issues were exposed due to injury. We have had some just-plain-bad-luck in the injury category, but that in itself should not kill a team. Injuries combined with poor positional planning/recruiting will.

From a development perspective, pretty happy on the O side of the ball. Development of players on the D side,,,, is another questions all together. I do believe we have significant talent, but lack of development in key areas combined with lack of depth in certain positions has really hurt.

Throw in a complex D (perhaps too complex for level of depth and development), and well,,, we have what we have (inconsistency and young studs not able to contribute).

 

[BleedBlueGold]

The problem is the unknown variables. A top ten recruiting class simply means you have the physical talent to be a good football team. The mental aspect once a kid takes a leap from HS to college is the biggest unknown variable. How do they adapt? Do they struggle with classes, do they get homesick, do they let other distractions (girls, parties, etc.) take up time that should be devoted to football or the classroom? How many kids never live up to their rankings? Happens everywhere all the time. The academic side at ND makes that more difficult than most, so you have to get the highly ranked kids that fit the ND mold. While BK has had ranked classes, his first few years we saw where we lost some because they weren't a good fit for ND. Look at BK's classes recently and the makeup of the kids is considerably different IMO. I think BK had to learn that and he did.

Great post. I just wanted to add to the bolded:

2010: #14
2011: #10
2012: #20
2013: #3
2014: #11
2015: #11

Average: #11.5

Now consider that players still on the list of commits (on Rivals) include guys who either transferred due to one reason or the other, suffered career ending injury, or left early for the draft or other reason ("early" as in left eligibility on the table, even a 5th year). BTW, I'm sure I've missed some or have mislabeled some. Go easy on me...

2010: Danny Spond (4*), Matt James (4*), Cam Roberson (4*), Louis Nix (4*), Kendall Moore (4*), and a couple other 3* players

2011: Ishaq Williams (5*), Stephon Tuitt (5*), Aaron Lynch (4*), Eilar Hardy (4*), Troy Niklas (4*), Ben Councell (4*), Davaris Daniels (4*), Matt Hegarty (4*), GAIII (4*), Golson (3*), and a couple others

2012: Gunner Kiel (5*), Will Mahone (4*), Davonte Neal (4*), Tee Shepard (4*), Justin Ferguson (3*)

2013: Eddie Vanderdoes (5*), Greg Bryant (5*), Mike Heuerman (4*), Rashad Kinlaw (3*)

2014: Kolin Hill (3*), Johnnie Williams (3*)

2015: Bo Wallace (3*)

Note: I'm not even including the guys from the Weis era who left early. Guys like Clausen, Tate, Rudolph, Armando Allen, Shaq Evans, Wood (I think)...I'm sure there are plenty of others.


Again, I'm sure I've missed some but look at that attrition! I'm not saying that other schools don't experience this, but this is exactly why you cannot look at recruiting rankings and expect outcomes on the field to reflect said ranking. I'm sure if Rivals re-ranked the classes after seeing how many guys either didn't step foot on campus or who eventually transferred, it'd drastically drop that ranking. So while BK has "technically" averaged a #11.5 recruiting ranking (per Rivals), I bet with all the attrition that it's closer to #25 (or maybe even worse).

(You have no idea how gut wrenching it was to make that list. My God, what could have been...)

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Great post. I just wanted to add to the bolded:

2010: #14
2011: #10
2012: #20
2013: #3
2014: #11
2015: #11

Average: #11.5

Now consider that players still on the list of commits (on Rivals) include guys who either transferred due to one reason or the other, suffered career ending injury, or left early for the draft or other reason ("early" as in left eligibility on the table, even a 5th year). BTW, I'm sure I've missed some or have mislabeled some. Go easy on me...

2010: Danny Spond (4*), Matt James (4*), Cam Roberson (4*), Louis Nix (4*), Kendall Moore (4*), and a couple other 3* players

2011: Ishaq Williams (5*), Stephon Tuitt (5*), Aaron Lynch (4*), Eilar Hardy (4*), Troy Niklas (4*), Ben Councell (4*), Davaris Daniels (4*), Matt Hegarty (4*), GAIII (4*), Golson (3*), and a couple others

2012: Gunner Kiel (5*), Will Mahone (4*), Davonte Neal (4*), Tee Shepard (4*), Justin Ferguson (3*)

2013: Eddie Vanderdoes (5*), Greg Bryant (5*), Mike Heuerman (4*), Rashad Kinlaw (3*)

2014: Kolin Hill (3*), Johnnie Williams (3*)

2015: Bo Wallace (3*)

Note: I'm not even including the guys from the Weis era who left early. Guys like Clausen, Tate, Rudolph, Armando Allen, Shaq Evans, Wood (I think)...I'm sure there are plenty of others.


Again, I'm sure I've missed some but look at that attrition! I'm not saying that other schools don't experience this, but this is exactly why you cannot look at recruiting rankings and expect outcomes on the field to reflect said ranking. I'm sure if Rivals re-ranked the classes after seeing how many guys either didn't step foot on campus or who eventually transferred, it'd drastically drop that ranking. So while BK has "technically" averaged a #11.5 recruiting ranking (per Rivals), I bet with all the attrition that it's closer to #25 (or maybe even worse).

(You have no idea how gut wrenching it was to make that list. My God, what could have been...)

To be fair...guys like Nix, Rudolph, and Tuitt are the good kind of leave early. It's the 2012 and 2013 classes that went Lemony Snicket on us. Kiel, Mahone, Neal, Tee, Venderdoes, and Bryant...some of those names were anchors of those highly rated classes. Every program has transfers. ND just has less margin for error.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

To be fair...guys like Nix, Rudolph, and Tuitt are the good kind of leave early. It's the 2012 and 2013 classes that went Lemony Snicket on us. Kiel, Mahone, Neal, Tee, Venderdoes, and Bryant...some of those names were anchors of those highly rated classes. Every program has transfers. ND just has less margin for error.

I figured someone would bring up the guys who left early for the NFL. I get it. You can't blame any of them and I certainly do not. But I didn't want to leave them off of my list because in all actuality, they did leave eligibility on the table at ND. Considering the post was in regards to a combination of recruiting rankings+attrition+results on the field. Michael Floyd and Teo are guys who come to mind where eligibility was exhausted AND they went pro. (I can't recall if Eifert left early or not). And I realize that the 5th year option is asking a lot, especially a pro prospect, but for sake of argument, I just included everyone I could think of. The point still stands that one cannot expect the on-the-field results to reflect directly what the recruiting rankings were.

 

[gkIrish]

I figured someone would bring up the guys who left early for the NFL. I get it. You can't blame any of them and I certainly do not. But I didn't want to leave them off of my list because in all actuality, they did leave eligibility on the table at ND. Considering the post was in regards to a combination of recruiting rankings+attrition+results on the field. Michael Floyd and Teo are guys who come to mind where eligibility was exhausted AND they went pro. (I can't recall if Eifert left early or not). And I realize that the 5th year option is asking a lot, especially a pro prospect, but for sake of argument, I just included everyone I could think of. The point still stands that one cannot expect the on-the-field results to reflect directly what the recruiting rankings were.

If you're going to include guys that left early then our "attrition" is likely very similar to Alabama or LSU or USC or any other school with big time talent. They have guys leave early much more often than we do.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

If you're going to include guys that left early then our "attrition" is likely very similar to Alabama or LSU or USC or any other school with big time talent. They have guys leave early much more often than we do.

ND doesn't get to plug a JUCO in their place or oversign, so I don't think you're comparing apples to apples.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Also, I clearly stated that ND isn't the only program effected by attrition. It happens everywhere. All I'm saying is that you can't make a direct correlation between recruiting rankings and actual seasonal team rankings. Just because BK averages a #11.5 recruiting ranking doesn't mean ND should automatically be averaging #11.5 on the field ranking. It doesn't work that way. See Irish#1's post as well as the point I'm trying to make with attrition (kids on the commit list aren't even on the team).

 

[Irish YJ]

ND doesn't get to plug a JUCO in their place or oversign, so I don't think you're comparing apples to apples.

But we should...

 

[BleedBlueGold]

But we should...

Getting 5th year transfers is a good start. Credit BK for getting that ball rolling.

 

[gkIrish]

Also, I clearly stated that ND isn't the only program effected by attrition. It happens everywhere. All I'm saying is that you can't make a direct correlation between recruiting rankings and actual seasonal team rankings. Just because BK averages a #11.5 recruiting ranking doesn't mean ND should automatically be averaging #11.5 on the field ranking. It doesn't work that way. See Irish#1's post as well as the point I'm trying to make with attrition (kids on the commit list aren't even on the team).

I don't think anyone is arguing that top 10 rankings should correlate to top 10 finishes every single year. But finishing in the top 15 once and top 25 twice isn't even close to meeting expectations.

 

[Irish#1]

I don't think anyone is arguing that top 10 rankings should correlate to top 10 finishes every single year. But finishing in the top 15 once and top 25 twice isn't even close to meeting expectations.

Why do I have the feeling if I were to say "the sky is blue", you'd say, "but it's not dark blue"? lol

 

[kmoose]

I don't think anyone is arguing that top 10 rankings should correlate to top 10 finishes every single year. But finishing in the top 15 once and top 25 twice isn't even close to meeting expectations.

Brian Kelly is obviously meeting his boss' expectations. Wins and losses at ND are such a small part of the equation, I would venture to say that he is performing the rest of his duties in a highly successful manner. You don't fire a great salesman because he is always just a little late turning in his expense reports. You don't like it, and you remind him, but you accept it as the "cost" of the revenue he brings in.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I don't think anyone is arguing that top 10 rankings should correlate to top 10 finishes every single year. But finishing in the top 15 once and top 25 twice isn't even close to meeting expectations.

I may be on my own here, but during any coaching transition, there's generally a period of time to rebuild. My estimation is that people are accepting of mediocrity in the first season or two but expect results in year three and beyond. Maybe you agree, maybe you don't. My point is that based on my own personal fanatic viewpoint, I don't expect Top 25 finishes in the first two years. So starting in 2012, BK has finished #4, #20, just outside the Top 25 (first in line to get in based on received votes), and currently #11. I know it doesn't work this way, but if you give 2014 a ranking of #26 and include where they currently stand in 2015, BK has ND averaging a #15.25 ranking. Again, maybe you don't view it that way but I do and I think it's why I'm a lot less stressed about the BK era than some. I've had my issues and we'll see how this year plays out. But at the moment, I just don't see things the way you do when it comes to this particular argument.

 

[JughedJones]

I don't think anyone is arguing that top 10 rankings should correlate to top 10 finishes every single year. But finishing in the top 15 once and top 25 twice isn't even close to meeting expectations.

Just to be clear, when you say "finishing in the top 15 once," you mean that year we went undefeated in the regular season and played in the National Championship?

Why wouldn't you say "finishing in the top 5 once"?

Doesn't fit the narrative?

 

[Irish Insanity]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">If <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Giants?src=hash">#Giants</a> have an opening after this year, <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NotreDame?src=hash">#NotreDame</a>’s Brian Kelly is a name that GMs pair with that job, based on his traits.</p>— Ian Rapoport (@RapSheet) <a href="https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/658294394576117760">October 25, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Cali_domer]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">If <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Giants?src=hash">#Giants</a> have an opening after this year, <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NotreDame?src=hash">#NotreDame</a>’s Brian Kelly is a name that GMs pair with that job, based on his traits.</p>— Ian Rapoport (@RapSheet) <a href="https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/658294394576117760">October 25, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I wonder what Swarbrick's shortlist would look like? he has to have one after the last flirtation.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Please God, no. Screw the NFL. Leave our Coach alone.

p.s. what do the rather constant NFL rumors do to the also rather constant IE griping about whether our great Coach is one of college's best?

But I guess somehow those two things are not relevant to each other................

 

[zelezo vlk]

Well the Giants job is considered the best in the NFL, so if they want Coach Kelly...it means he must finally be good.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

 

[Grahambo]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">If <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Giants?src=hash">#Giants</a> have an opening after this year, <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NotreDame?src=hash">#NotreDame</a>’s Brian Kelly is a name that GMs pair with that job, based on his traits.</p>— Ian Rapoport (@RapSheet) <a href="https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/658294394576117760">October 25, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I wonder what Swarbrick's shortlist would look like? he has to have one after the last flirtation.

Please God, no. Screw the NFL. Leave our Coach alone.

p.s. what do the rather constant NFL rumors do to the also rather constant IE griping about whether our great Coach is one of college's best?

But I guess somehow those two things are not relevant to each other................

Well the Giants job is considered the best in the NFL, so if they want Coach Kelly...it means he must finally be good.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

I'm just a regular Joe with no sources but as a life long Giants fan, that would be a true stunner and something I just don't see happening. Assuming TC doesn't retire, they would look for a more established NFL coach and most likely one who already has NFL experience.