'11 NY OLB Ishaq Williams (Signed ND LOI-EE)

Emcee77

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There may be rules that state he counts as scholarship if he is enrolled being that he once was a full scholarship athlete. There have been times in the past 20 years when you couldn't bust someone down to a PWO to free up a scholarship. I don't know what this year's NCAA bylaws state. I guess it would be possible for the program to sever ties with him for rules violations if they don't want him on the team for whatever reason.

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Yeah, I'm not certain myself but my understanding is that if he plays, he counts, regardless of whether he is actually receiving scholarship aid or not, because he was recruited as a scholarship athlete. If he wants to pay his way, he can work out with the team and practice with the team, but he can't play unless we have a spot for him within the 85 limit.
 

yankeeND

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Awesome! Congrats Ishaq! Get that degree brother! Whether he plays again or not, this is one of those character defining moments of his life that will make him a better person. Pesistence, not willing to quit, and facing consequences are tough qualities to find in today's youth. This right here tells me plenty about this young man. I hope to see you running out of the tunnel this fall, but no matter what, I will be rooting for you!
 

BobbyMac

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Yeah, I'm not certain myself but my understanding is that if he plays, he counts, regardless of whether he is actually receiving scholarship aid or not, because he was recruited as a scholarship athlete. If he wants to pay his way, he can work out with the team and practice with the team, but he can't play unless we have a spot for him within the 85 limit.

If he plays, he DEFINITELY counts. What I'm saying is in the past, there has been times when the NCAA made you count him even if he wasn't playing and was simply enrolled in school without getting a medical waiver. It's impossible to keep up with NCAA bylaws, they change yearly and since it's a organization of lawyers, you'll have that. Sorry to the 9,378 lawyers that regularly post here. No Italics.

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ulukinatme

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If he plays, he DEFINITELY counts. What I'm saying is in the past, there has been times when the NCAA made you count him even if he wasn't playing and was simply enrolled in school without getting a medical waiver. It's impossible to keep up with NCAA bylaws, they change yearly and since it's a organization of lawyers, you'll have that. Sorry to the 9,378 lawyers that regularly post here. No Italics.

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Wait a minute, so grey shirting is okay, but the reverse isn't cool? If the kid gets kicked out and later gets readmitted he can't pay his own way and not count against scholarship numbers? Some bullshit there on the NCAA's part if that's true.
 

Emcee77

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If he plays, he DEFINITELY counts. What I'm saying is in the past, there has been times when the NCAA made you count him even if he wasn't playing and was simply enrolled in school without getting a medical waiver. It's impossible to keep up with NCAA bylaws, they change yearly and since it's a organization of lawyers, you'll have that. Sorry to the 9,378 lawyers that regularly post here. No Italics.

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Is that true? Enrolled in school, receiving no aid, not playing, still counts against the scholarship limits? Even I think that is totally illogical, and I'm a lawyer. ;)
 

ndcoltsfan2010

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Awesome news! Very proud of this young man's dedication and big effort! He has shown his true grit and proven he has the heart to succeed.
 

ulukinatme

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Is that true? Enrolled in school, receiving no aid, not playing, still counts against the scholarship limits? Even I think that is totally illogical, and I'm a lawyer. ;)

Yeah, that's what I was saying. It's like a reverse of a grey shirt essentially. The guy would be a walk on for all intents and purposes, I don't see how he could count against scholarship numbers. The NCAA is a fickle animal though, Crusader sounds like he knows more about these bylaws.
 

IrishLax

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If you're off the team but enrolled in school you do not count unless you are still receiving scholarship money. The only way to still be 1) enrolled and 2) receiving "athletic" aid and not count towards the 85 is if you take a medical.

If he is only receiving normal financial aid per University procedures applicable to all students and no "scholarship" money he can be enrolled in school and not count towards the 85.
 

Emcee77

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Yeah, that's what I was saying. It's like a reverse of a grey shirt essentially. The guy would be a walk on for all intents and purposes, I don't see how he could count against scholarship numbers. The NCAA is a fickle animal though, Crusader sounds like he knows more about these bylaws.

Oh, I thought you were saying the rule doesn't make sense even as applied to a player who IS playing in games. I think it makes at least some twisted sense in that context because teams could drop scholarship players who come from families of means as a way of getting around the 85 rule (although I might agree with you that, all things considered, it's the wrong rule, because after all, that's not that far different from what we do with our PWO program, is recruit rich kids who can afford to be PWOs -- only difference is we don't formally "recruit" them within the meaning of the NCAA rules) (But then again, the PWO "market" is a different talent level, so you could argue that it isn't nearly as bad as recruiting a kid on the premise that he WILL have a schollie and then dropping him and expecting him to pay his way) (but I'm veering off on a tangent ...).

But if the player isn't playing in games, I don't see anything at all that could properly be called a "reason" why that player should count against the scholarship limit. I kinda doubt that was ever the rule.
 
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IrishLax

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The reason why you can't move people on and off scholarship in "head count" sports is that it would be abused. "Head count" sports and "equivalency" sports are completely different animals.

With the "head count" sports the rules are extremely complex with regards to "counters", "initial counters", "participants", what constitutes a "recruited athlete", etc. The reason the rules are complex is that the NCAA wants to make it virtually impossible to find loop holes to circumvent scholarship limits. Even with these steps, you still saw SEC schools oversign and use blue-grey-purple-brown-fuscia-whatever "shirts" to try to gain a competitive advantage.

Oversimplifying things for brevity's sake... if a "recruited athlete" that was an "initial counter" is receiving scholarship money in any way they are still a "counter" towards whatever the "head count" limit is. Otherwise, teams would find a way to play the shell game with "participants" versus "non-participants" to keep the guys they know aren't going to play uncounted in a given year.

If a student-athlete is removed from the team, enrolled in school, and not on scholarship they generally are not a counter but there are also lots of times where technicalities would make them a counter depending on timing and eligibility. It's really case-by-case... but yes, you can be off scholarship and still count towards the "head count" for the year if certain criteria are met.

Finally, generally you can receive scholarship and not be a counter if and only if you sign something forfeiting your eligibility (e.g. a medical, etc.). If you have eligibility remaining that would allow you to be a "participant" in the future then you generally can't be taking any money that isn't strictly need based without counting.
 

Irish YJ

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This is great new regardless if he ever plays a down again for ND. Kid has an awesome dad. Wish more player's fathers were like him.

A billion Vbucks says he plays for us this year.
 

pumpdog20

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How special is Notre Dame?

-The starting QB from a championship game gets booted. He can go where he wants, he waits it out, and comes back for the degree.

-Preseaon all American DB gets kicked out of school. He can go anywhere and play. He waits it out to come back and get his degree.

-Former 5 star player gets kicked out. He can go anywhere and play. He waits it out to come back and get his degree. Including up to having to pay $60K+ of his own money to do it.

Man, that's some heavy stuff.
 

NDBoiler

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What do you think about this latest development, Hollywood? Is this counter to what you have been hearing, i.e. Should I not get too excited yet?
 

ND NYC

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How special is Notre Dame?

-The starting QB from a championship game gets booted. He can go where he wants, he waits it out, and comes back for the degree.

-Preseaon all American DB gets kicked out of school. He can go anywhere and play. He waits it out to come back and get his degree.

-Former 5 star player gets kicked out. He can go anywhere and play. He waits it out to come back and get his degree. Including up to having to pay $60K+ of his own money to do it.

Man, that's some heavy stuff.

special indeed!
 

PANDFAN

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According to 1 source Hansen spoke to, he will be on the team ....tifwiw
 

stlnd01

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How special is Notre Dame?

-The starting QB from a championship game gets booted. He can go where he wants, he waits it out, and comes back for the degree.

-Preseaon all American DB gets kicked out of school. He can go anywhere and play. He waits it out to come back and get his degree.

-Former 5 star player gets kicked out. He can go anywhere and play. He waits it out to come back and get his degree. Including up to having to pay $60K+ of his own money to do it.

Man, that's some heavy stuff.

That says a lot. About the school and the young men involved.
For that matter, aside I guess from Davaris Daniels, none of the Frozen Five or Golson have really had anything bad to say about the university, despite what must've been an incredibly frustrating experience for all involved.
 

dublinirish

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That says a lot. About the school and the young men involved.
For that matter, aside I guess from Davaris Daniels, none of the Frozen Five or Golson have really had anything bad to say about the university, despite what must've been an incredibly frustrating experience for all involved.

lol i dont think they would have gained anything from dissing ND, particularly when the university hasn't ever specified what their cheating entailed..
 

ThePiombino

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This is great new regardless if he ever plays a down again for ND. Kid has an awesome dad. Wish more player's fathers were like him.

A billion Vbucks says he plays for us this year.

I'll take that bet. I'm definitely rooting for him to play - I truly think he would be a net-positive - but I also wouldn't mind hedging my bets and making it interesting lol

So, I wage 1B vBucks that he does NOT play. Deal?
 

Irish#1

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lol i dont think they would have gained anything from dissing ND, particularly when the university hasn't ever specified what their cheating entailed..

Same logic as this........No matter how pissed you are or how much you hate your boss or job, never burn a bridge when you leave. Never know when it could come back to bite you in the cheeks.
 

dublinirish

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Same logic as this........No matter how pissed you are or how much you hate your boss or job, never burn a bridge when you leave. Never know when it could come back to bite you in the cheeks.

haha yep and down the line it will be ND alums they might go to when looking for a leg up in their career, not a wise idea to tarnish the university so :)

To quote the wise Gareth Keenan "don't shit on your own doorstep"
 

Irish YJ

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I'll take that bet. I'm definitely rooting for him to play - I truly think he would be a net-positive - but I also wouldn't mind hedging my bets and making it interesting lol

So, I wage 1B vBucks that he does NOT play. Deal?

Dealio!!!
 

PANDFAN

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COACH D SAID : I've mentioned this before. I don't see a scenario where Williams gets enough passed credit hours by the time the season starts to be eligible per NCAA standards. Each year (Sophomore, Junior, Senior, 5th year) you have to have passed a certain number of credit hours to be eligible to play. I don't see how Williams could be in a situation where he is at that point since he didn't take any classes during the spring semester.

Also, I believe's Notre Dame policy when it comes to 5th year players is they have to graduate on time. He won't. The second part I'm less certain on, so someone correct me if I'm wrong on ND's policy. But I'm confident in the NCAA's policy, so unless Williams has more credit hours than his dad said in an interview with someone else, I don't see how he gets cleared by the NCAA.
 

woolybug25

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COACH D SAID : I've mentioned this before. I don't see a scenario where Williams gets enough passed credit hours by the time the season starts to be eligible per NCAA standards. Each year (Sophomore, Junior, Senior, 5th year) you have to have passed a certain number of credit hours to be eligible to play. I don't see how Williams could be in a situation where he is at that point since he didn't take any classes during the spring semester.

Also, I believe's Notre Dame policy when it comes to 5th year players is they have to graduate on time. He won't. The second part I'm less certain on, so someone correct me if I'm wrong on ND's policy. But I'm confident in the NCAA's policy, so unless Williams has more credit hours than his dad said in an interview with someone else, I don't see how he gets cleared by the NCAA.

This is where CoachD needs to clarify whether he thinks that Ishaq was given incompletes in classes he already passed. Otherwise, both of his comments are clearly untrue. IF... again, he very well may have been given incompletes on past classes... but IF Ishaq was only given incompletes in the classes he was enrolled in at the time of the Frozen 5 then he clearly would have enough credits to be NCAA eligible and on track to graduate.

I don't want to raise neckhairs on anyone, but CoachD needs to specifically state whether he thinks Ishaq was given incompletes on classes he already passed. Because if he doesn't know or believe that, then his math makes zero sense.
 

PANDFAN

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This is where CoachD needs to clarify whether he thinks that Ishaq was given incompletes in classes he already passed. Otherwise, both of his comments are clearly untrue. IF... again, he very well may have been given incompletes on past classes... but IF Ishaq was only given incompletes in the classes he was enrolled in at the time of the Frozen 5 then he clearly would have enough credits to be NCAA eligible and on track to graduate.

I don't want to raise neckhairs on anyone, but CoachD needs to specifically state whether he thinks Ishaq was given incompletes on classes he already passed. Because if he doesn't know or believe that, then his math makes zero sense.

THIS WAS SOMEONE'S ADDED INFO TO WHAT COACH D SAID :TIFWIW
I believe the NCAA rule is that an athlete must have earned 80% of the credits needed to graduate by the end of his 4th year in order to be eligible for a 5th year. Regardless of what the Notre Dame requirements are, I think it would be hard for Williams to meet the 80% threshold after missing two complete semesters plus losing what ever prior earned credits he lost in those classes where he had the academic improprieties.
 

irishfan

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COACH D SAID : I've mentioned this before. I don't see a scenario where Williams gets enough passed credit hours by the time the season starts to be eligible per NCAA standards. Each year (Sophomore, Junior, Senior, 5th year) you have to have passed a certain number of credit hours to be eligible to play. I don't see how Williams could be in a situation where he is at that point since he didn't take any classes during the spring semester.

Also, I believe's Notre Dame policy when it comes to 5th year players is they have to graduate on time. He won't. The second part I'm less certain on, so someone correct me if I'm wrong on ND's policy. But I'm confident in the NCAA's policy, so unless Williams has more credit hours than his dad said in an interview with someone else, I don't see how he gets cleared by the NCAA.

Is he technically a 5th year academically? He was gone his whole senior year. I know for NCAA purposes he is a 5th year, but for ND's purposes he should still academically be in his 4th year in 2015 right?

It will just come down to how many classes that he received incompletes for, since in theory he should have been ahead prior to the Frozen 5 scandal being an EE and with the summer sessions.
 
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