[NFL] vBook: Colts vs Patriots (Deflategate)

FightingIrishLover7

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Can't blame him at all for not handing over his phone. I'm sure he has a ton of personal things on there that he didn't want to be leaked (and with the way these things go, they would get leaked). Much to do about nothing but it gives the Pats haters something to hang their hat on.
Are the Wells investigators going to leak out his banking information or nudes of Gisele?

Come on now. This isn't deadspin he'd be handing his phone over to.

If Brady wants to prove his innocence, he would have over his phone. Until then, I'll believe there is/was damming evidence on his phone.

This would be similar to an "innocent" murder suspect not letting a ballistics team test a firearm, because of "personal reasons" and "freedoms".

Transparency clears names, and Brady isn't going that route for a reason.
 

IrishLax

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LAX, it is the Boston Globe...

I deleted my post because it's just not worth it. There are 95% of people who understand that it's completely implausible that Brady 1) wasn't an active participant in a plan to circumvent the rules for a competitive advantage 2) lied and continues to lie about the situation.

The other 5% are Patriots fans. Just is what it is. I agree with them that it isn't a "big deal" and that there isn't a "smoking gun" (like what were people expecting? a picture of Brady with two forms of ID smiling at the camera while he sticks a needle in a ball?) but there is honestly 10x the circumstantial evidence I expected there to be. You have to do serious mental gymnastics to get to the place where either the world is being unfair to them or Brady doesn't deserve punishment.

Reminds me of this scene:
<div style="background-color:#000000;width:520px;"><div style="padding:4px;"><iframe src="http://media.mtvnservices.com/embed/mgid:arc:video:comedycentral.com:98fd7c72-ed00-11e0-aca6-0026b9414f30" width="512" height="288" frameborder="0"></iframe><p style="text-align:left;background-color:#FFFFFF;padding:4px;margin-top:4px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><b><a href="http://www.cc.com/shows/chappelle-s-show">Chappelle's Show</a></b><br/>Get More: <a href="http://www.comedycentral.com">Comedy Central</a>,<a href="http://www.comedycentral.com/funny-videos">Funny Videos</a>,<a href="http://www.comedycentral.com/shows">Funny TV Shows</a></p></div></div>
 
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Rhode Irish

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I deleted my post because it's just not worth it. There are 95% of people who understand that it's completely implausible that Brady 1) wasn't an active participant in a plan to circumvent the rules for a competitive advantage 2) lied and continuous to lie about the situation.

The other 5% are Patriots fans. Just is what it is. I agree with them that it isn't a "big deal" and that there isn't a "smoking gun" (like what were people expecting? a picture of Brady with two forms of ID smiling at the camera while he sticks a needle in a ball?)but there is honestly 10x the circumstantial evidence I expected there to be. You have to do serious mental gymnastics to get to the place where either the world is being unfair to them or Brady doesn't deserve punishment.

I'm a Patriots fan. I've also said from the jump that if anyone had knowledge of what went on with the footballs, it would be Brady not Belichick, and that I would not be surprised to find out that the balls were being messed with. Quite honestly, I think it is probably commonplace around the league. That isn't an excuse nor am I offering it as a mitigating factor. If everyone speeds and you get caught, you get the ticket, yada yada. If you go back through this thread, I definitely argued that I didn't think the league would find anything, but not that the Patriots didn't do anything. If those idiot ball boys had kept their mouths shut, I would have been right (which is support for the idea that this is a common practice in two ways: if they thought there was anything really nefarious about what they were doing, they'd have covered it up better; and you wouldn't know about anyone else doing this unless you investigated every team and confiscated peoples' phones).

However, having said all of that, and conceding that common sense and basic human intuition leads you to conclude that Brady probably did know about what was going on, I think there is some merit to what Volin wrote. At least enough merit that should this go before a neutral arbitrator (on appeal of a suspension), Brady and his world-class attorneys certainly have a shot at plausible deniability.

Personally, I do think Brady should be suspended for one game for not owning this up front as soon as the story broke and putting the league through this embarrassing ordeal. But I don't believe that the actual infraction is suspension-worthy. It is just too inconsequential of an infraction to lose 1/16th of your season over. It would be like suspending a baseball player 10 games or more for using too much pine tar or something. Hit him with a fine - a big one if it makes you feel better - and let the guy play. What is more damaging to the integrity of the game: playing with a ball with an imperceptible amount of air missing or taking the best player in the league off the field for doing so?
 
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Irish YJ

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I deleted my post because it's just not worth it. There are 95% of people who understand that it's completely implausible that Brady 1) wasn't an active participant in a plan to circumvent the rules for a competitive advantage 2) lied and continuous to lie about the situation.

The other 5% are Patriots fans. Just is what it is. I agree with them that it isn't a "big deal" and that there isn't a "smoking gun" (like what were people expecting? a picture of Brady with two forms of ID smiling at the camera while he sticks a needle in a ball?)but there is honestly 10x the circumstantial evidence I expected there to be. You have to do serious mental gymnastics to get to the place where either the world is being unfair to them or Brady doesn't deserve punishment.

completely agree.
But yep, I'm sure a bunch of folks in the NE are doing mental uneven bars, and will be for the foreseeable future.
 

NDRock

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Are the Wells investigators going to leak out his banking information or nudes of Gisele?

Come on now. This isn't deadspin he'd be handing his phone over to.

If Brady wants to prove his innocence, he would have over his phone. Until then, I'll believe there is/was damming evidence on his phone.

This would be similar to an "innocent" murder suspect not letting a ballistics team test a firearm, because of "personal reasons" and "freedoms".

Transparency clears names, and Brady isn't going that route for a reason.

Are you kidding me? Things get leaked all the time. We can discount the countless military and political leaks and stick to sports. Remember baseball's steroid list that was supposed to be kept secret? How about Bond's grand jury testimony being leaked?

You don't think that if Brady had texts on his phone talking shit about Gronk, or Kraft or Belichick that it wouldn't somehow get out? You comparing the situation to a murder suspect is quite comical and those "freedoms" you allude to are our Constitutional rights, which I consider pretty important. YMMV.
 

Irish Insanity

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I'm not a Pats or Brady fan. I actually hate the Pats. Brady lied and knew and was involved. As far as punishment. A game during the suspension may be to much as far as I'm concerned. Suspend him for all of the preseason games and call it good.
 

connor_in

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I deleted my post because it's just not worth it. There are 95% of people who understand that it's completely implausible that Brady 1) wasn't an active participant in a plan to circumvent the rules for a competitive advantage 2) lied and continues to lie about the situation.

The other 5% are Patriots fans. Just is what it is. I agree with them that it isn't a "big deal" and that there isn't a "smoking gun" (like what were people expecting? a picture of Brady with two forms of ID smiling at the camera while he sticks a needle in a ball?) but there is honestly 10x the circumstantial evidence I expected there to be. You have to do serious mental gymnastics to get to the place where either the world is being unfair to them or Brady doesn't deserve punishment.
QUOTE]

So basically NE fans be like...


58364831.jpg
?
 

FightingIrishLover7

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Are you kidding me? Things get leaked all the time. We can discount the countless military and political leaks and stick to sports. Remember baseball's steroid list that was supposed to be kept secret? How about Bond's grand jury testimony being leaked?

You don't think that if Brady had texts on his phone talking shit about Gronk, or Kraft or Belichick that it wouldn't somehow get out? You comparing the situation to a murder suspect is quite comical and those "freedoms" you allude to are our Constitutional rights, which I consider pretty important. YMMV.
Brady is violating NFL policy by withholding evidence in a formal report.

Do you think Brady would violate NFL policies for personal reasons?

This is a case of, "I'll take the lesser of two punishments".

He would rather withhold damming evidence, pay the fines, and retain evidence that could get him into deeper shit.

That is why he's holding onto his phone, period.
 

Irish#1

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It would have been very easy for Brady to meet with Wells and show him his text messages without Wells having to look at phone numbers of celebs and pics of his wife.

Wells: Tom I need to see your phone.
Brady: Sorry can't do.
Wells: Why not?
Brady: Personal information I don't want leaked.
Wells: No problem, I can meet with you and you can simply show me the text messages and emails. That way I don't see anything else on the phone.
Brady: Hmmm, Oh wait, can't do that.
Wells: Why not?
Brady: I'll be out of the country vacationing in Indonesia.
Wells: No problem, I can meet you there.
Brady: Well uh, I don't think I can let you do that.
Wells: Why not?
Brady: Damn it Wells quit making me come up with excuses. Call my agent. He'll help you out.
 

IrishLion

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The Wells report even states at one point that they did not request access to his entire phone, they only wanted records of any communications with parties involved.

It's not like they were going to data dive and leak all of his secret Ugg Boots orders.
 

irishfan

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The Wells report even states at one point that they did not request access to his entire phone, they only wanted records of any communications with parties involved.

It's not like they were going to data dive and leak all of his secret Ugg Boots orders.

Any texts or calls he sent/received from these equipment guys were in the report since they had access to the equipment guys' phones. They show a text from one of these guys that he sent to his fiancée (the text actually makes Brady look good/fairly innocent) which shows that they were clearly looking at all texts if you handed over your phone. His fiancée wasn't a "party involved."

This isn't the Pats-homer in me speaking: I wouldn't hand my phone over to anyone under any scenario if I could avoid it.

There could literally be anything in that phone and since texts to fiancées are on the table. Why wouldn't Wells release any text Brady had referring to the equipment guys or any staff? Maybe Brady called one of these guys a "fag" in a text to someone else. Now all of a sudden Brady has to go on the apology tour. That might be a far fetched example, but I can guarantee that guy has some stuff on his phone that he doesn't need the public seeing.
 
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Irish Insanity

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The Wells report even states at one point that they did not request access to his entire phone, they only wanted records of any communications with parties involved.

It's not like they were going to data dive and leak all of his secret Ugg Boots orders.

He was also offered the option for his attorney to only show specific texts requested for the investigation and he wouldn't even let that happen.
 

Irish#1

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Any texts or calls he sent/received from these equipment guys were in the report since they had access to the equipment guys' phones. They show a text from one of these guys that he sent to his fiancée (the text actually makes Brady look good/fairly innocent) which shows that they were clearly looking at all texts if you handed over your phone. His fiancée wasn't a "party involved."

This isn't the Pats-homer in me speaking: I wouldn't hand my phone over to anyone under any scenario if I could avoid it.

There could literally be anything in that phone and since texts to fiancées are on the table. Why wouldn't Wells release any text Brady had referring to the equipment guys or any staff? Maybe Brady called one of these guys a "fag" in a text to someone else. Now all of a sudden Brady has to go on the apology tour. That might be a far fetched example, but I can guarantee that guy has some stuff on his phone that he doesn't need the public seeing.

We all get the privacy issue, but it really isn't hard to just show Wells what he wants to see without compromising anything else. It's not like he opens his phone and the entire contents are displayed on a 60" plasma.
 

irishfan

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We all get the privacy issue, but it really isn't hard to just show Wells what he wants to see without compromising anything else. It's not like he opens his phone and the entire contents are displayed on a 60" plasma.

True but what conversations would they want to peruse? They have all the text history between Brady and the 2 equipment guys. No one else has been fingered in the investigation. Did they want to look in Brady/Belichick texts as well? I'm sure there's some discussion of personnel in there that Brady doesn't want seen by anyone.

Either way, Gostowski also was asked to hand over his phone and he declined, so I'm pretty positive they both were advised by the NFLPA to avoid handing over their phones for the sh!t precedent it would send. There's a lot of things in that report that could inciminate Brady, but I don't think the phone-issue is one of them.
 

ND NYC

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True but what conversations would they want to peruse? They have all the text history between Brady and the 2 equipment guys. No one else has been fingered in the investigation. Did they want to look in Brady/Belichick texts as well? I'm sure there's some discussion of personnel in there that Brady doesn't want seen by anyone.

Either way, Gostowski also was asked to hand over his phone and he declined, so I'm pretty positive they both were advised by the NFLPA to avoid handing over their phones for the sh!t precedent it would send. There's a lot of things in that report that could inciminate Brady, but I don't think the phone-issue is one of them.

they better not mess with gostkowski he's my fantasy kicker.
kick this shady brady character out of the league for all I care but gostokowski and his inflating/deflating of the kicking balls is off limits damnit.
 

Redbar

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I'm not a Pats or Brady fan. I actually hate the Pats. Brady lied and knew and was involved. As far as punishment. A game during the suspension may be to much as far as I'm concerned. Suspend him for all of the preseason games and call it good.

Bill Polian nailed it when he said there are a lot of Saints fans watching how this shakes out. Bounty gate was not, per se cheating, in a competitive advantage way, and the Head Coach claimed he was unaware, so the league hasn't allowed that excuse. Vilma got 8 games, Payton got a year. Not saying these guys are going to get anything like that. But cheating is not nothing, and it can't be dealt with like "No big deal!"
 

NDRock

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Bill Polian nailed it when he said there are a lot of Saints fans watching how this shakes out. Bounty gate was not, per se cheating, in a competitive advantage way, and the Head Coach claimed he was unaware, so the league hasn't allowed that excuse. Vilma got 8 games, Payton got a year. Not saying these guys are going to get anything like that. But cheating is not nothing, and it can't be dealt with like "No big deal!"

The big difference is the NFL is not in any danger of having to pay out $765 million because of under inflated balls. Bounty gate was all about the NFL wanting to look like they care about player safety.

I can understand Saints fans being pissed about that whole deal but I can't imagine the Pats get anything near what the Saints got.
 

irishfan

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Bill Polian nailed it when he said there are a lot of Saints fans watching how this shakes out. Bounty gate was not, per se cheating, in a competitive advantage way, and the Head Coach claimed he was unaware, so the league hasn't allowed that excuse. Vilma got 8 games, Payton got a year. Not saying these guys are going to get anything like that. But cheating is not nothing, and it can't be dealt with like "No big deal!"

From Payton's wiki. He claimed he was unaware but that was proved false.

On March 2, 2012, the NFL concluded after a thorough investigation that from 2009 to 2011, the Saints implemented a bounty program which rewarded players for deliberately attempting to knock opposing players out of games. The slush fund was determined to be administered by defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, who joined the team in 2009. An extensive league investigation found that Payton was implicated in the Bounty Scandal. The league determined Payton went as far as to orchestrate a cover-up when the league first investigated it in the 2009-10 offseason. When informed that the league was investigating reports of a bounty program, Payton met with Williams and assistant head coach Joe Vitt and told them, "Let's make sure our ducks are in a row."[28]

According to a league memo, the NFL reopened its investigation late in the 2011 season. Just before the Saints' playoff game against the Detroit Lions, league officials alerted Saints owner Tom Benson that they had found irrefutable evidence of the Saints' bounty program.[29][30] When general manager Mickey Loomis informed Payton that the league had reopened its investigation, Payton failed to shut the alleged program down.[28]

On March 22, 2012, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell suspended Payton for the entire 2012 season, effective April 1. Payton became the first head coach in modern NFL history to be suspended for any reason. Goodell was particularly upset that Payton and other Saints officials had lied to him about the scheme. For instance, during its investigation, the league uncovered an email that Michael Ornstein, the agent for former Saints running back Reggie Bush, had sent to Payton. In reality, the Ornstein email wasn’t directly sent to Payton, instead it came to team spokesman Greg Bensel, who then forwarded it to the coaching staff with this message: “email from Orny (he asked that I send it) the dude is in prison so I told him I would.” [31] The email stated "put me down for $5000 on "Green Bay Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers".[30] "It's a running joke going for three years," Ornstein said. "Ornstein's email is just another example of the speciousness of the quote-unquote evidence that Commissioner (Roger) Goodell claims to have to support his erroneous accusations against Jonathan and the other players," lawyer Peter Ginsberg said. "As more of the evidence is revealed in the media, it is becoming more and more apparent how irresponsible the NFL's actions have been." [32] When confronted with the email, Payton initially claimed he never read it, but subsequently admitted that he had.[29][33] In an interview with ESPN's Adam Schefter, Goodell implied that Payton would have faced significant punishment even if he'd been more forthcoming. In Goodell's view, Payton's contractual obligation to supervise his assistants meant that, at the very least, he should have known about the scheme and shut it down immediately.[34] In the league's announcement of sanctions against the Saints, Payton was faulted for violating a provision of the league constitution that requires coaches to inform their owners about team operations, as well as to "avoid actions that undermine or damage the club's reputation or operating success."[28]
 

IrishLax

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">BREAKING: Tom Brady suspended 4 games for <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/DeflateGate?src=hash">#DeflateGate</a>. Patriots fined $1 million, lose 2016 1st-, 4th-round picks. <a href="http://t.co/m3s3y0G9uX">pic.twitter.com/m3s3y0G9uX</a></p>— NBC Sports (@NBCSports) <a href="https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status/597877734535073792">May 11, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

nlroma1o

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Its about time those cheaters have to face some type of punishment.
 

yankeeND

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Seems a little over the top on the punishment, but it's going to be alright. I hope we can at least split the first 4 games until he gets back. Gonna be an interesting year that's for sure.
 
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