'11 SC QB Everett Golson (FSU transfer)

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koonja

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A few things, I think.

1. A lot of people just "accepted" 8-5 at the beginning of last season as soon as Golson was suspended.

2. There wasn't a chorus of pro-Tommy people talking about how glorious he is. I said before that I'm not anti-Golson per-se, but I'm anti-pro-Golson.

3. Tommy had no viable replacement whatsoever.

Who would you want at the helm this year, a last year's Tommy or a this year's Golson? Golson is a starter because he earned the job, Tommy was the starter because we had nobody else. We aren't option less behind Golson this year, we were behind Rees last year. The expectations were low because so is the ceiling for Rees. This year they were high because we all thought the floor and ceiling for Golson was too.

Golson, obvi. And both of you make good points. Tommy's play was acceptable since his ceiling was so low and Golson's is high. But it's not like Tommy was great outside of his physical limitations. He had his share of ball issues/fumbles, throwing into double coverage, and how many mental mistakes at the line trying to be Peyton Manning?
 

wizards8507

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Golson, obvi. And both of you make good points. Tommy's play was acceptable since his ceiling was so low and Golson's is high. But it's not like Tommy was great outside of his physical limitations. He had his share of ball issues/fumbles, throwing into double coverage, and how many mental mistakes at the line trying to be Peyton Manning?
Outside of clock management, not many really. Kelly always reiterated after the games that Tommy was checking us into the right plays on a consistent basis.
 

Irish Insanity

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I'd prefer Golson too. But man I wish Rees was still around to step in when needed. We may easily be undefeated right now.
 

Rocket89

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Carving out an anti-Golson position unless he's a QB God just seems really damn depressing. I can't think of any other way to put it. Why would any Irish fan voluntarily back themselves into that corner?

It seems like there's this weird fetish this year that extends beyond the typical championing of the unproven backup quarterback. Almost like some aren't comfortable or content unless there's a quarterback controversy.

3,500+ passing yards is pretty awesome. A projected school record 42 total touchdowns is pretty awesome. A Kelly-era high 8.2 YPA is pretty awesome. A Kelly-era high in offensive scoring is pretty awesome. A Kelly-era high in yards per play is pretty awesome.

Yes, let's not throw the turnovers to the side. But let's not also throw all the positives away either. And there a lot of positives to talk about.

I know there's frustration with the 7-4 record but it's been truly bizarre to see so many Irish fans ignore Golson's productivity. That production is kind of a big deal, especially behind a disappointing offensive line.

Golson is a weird cat but even with the mistakes he's been on the nuggets for the bulk of this season. Do some of ya'll enjoy any of that?

Wanting the backup to play is pretty normal but Zaire isn't starting absent injury until 2016. To put yourself in that corner against Golson for the next year seems completely miserable.
 

irishfan

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He did not run a 2-QB system at UC.

This. He played Collaros when Pike got hurt, and the offense somewhat improved. When Pike came back for the end of the season, he switched it up and would play the 2 QBs, but his hands were tied there.
 

BobbyMac

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Can they win it all next year with Golson?

If yes, carry on as usual. If not, let him graduate and hand it off to Malik. I think ND peaks in '16-'17. Let the guy who'll lead your team grow with them on Saturday's when it matters, not during the week in limited snaps when the lights aren't on.

That being said, I wish Malik's RT would have been on the field this year for the experience. Sounds like it will be McGlinchey and that will be an important position as Malik's a lefty.

.
 

IrishBlood81

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Unless Golson drastically changes his attitude, becomes a man, so to speak, and really grows up, I don't think he will be successful at ND. The pressure is too much, you either thrive or die from it. So far, Golson had died by it. I personally can't imagine him changing as much as he needs too. He's got great talent but great talent without great character/personality/attide does not carry a team or individuals to greatness.
 
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BobbyMac

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Unless Golson drastically changes his attitude, becomes a man, so to speak, and really grows up, I don't think he will be successful at ND. The pressure is too much, you either thrive or die from it. So far, Golson had died by it. I personally can't imagine him change as much as he needs too. He's got great talent but great talent without great character/personality/attide doesn't not carry a team or individual to greatness.

So as the head coach, you would start Malik on Saturday(?)

.
 

ulukinatme

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Can they win it all next year with Golson?

If yes, carry on as usual. If not, let him graduate and hand it off to Malik. I think ND peaks in '16-'17. Let the guy who'll lead your team grow with them on Saturday's when it matters, not during the week in limited snaps when the lights aren't on.

That being said, I wish Malik's RT would have been on the field this year for the experience. Sounds like it will be McGlinchey and that will be an important position as Malik's a lefty.

.

I imagine they'll switch RT and LT when Malik gets snaps.
 

IrishBlood81

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So as the head coach, you would start Malik on Saturday(?)

.

Thats hard to say. I obviously don't know what Malik looks like as a player, as a leader and as an individual. Personally, I would have definitely played him sooner in the year, possibly vs ASU or Louisville.
Not saying that would've been the right thing to do, could have made us lose even worse, but we need to know what kind of back up we have.
Sometimes people play better than they practice. Malik could be a superstar and he's just wasted...he could be a loser. We don't know. Golson though, we do know pretty well. So heck, probably not start Malik vs USC but I would put him in at some point.
What if Golson gets injured? If we're too scared to play Malik when Golson is messing up horribly, then we better be terrified if Golson gets injured.
 

Irish#1

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Are you making a wish or a prediction? I'd be SHOCKED if Malik starts a game while Golson is a student at Notre Dame.

Just saying I hope Kelly isn't blind to EG's issues and opens up the position to all.


I'm worried that, while we will have a lot of returning guys in 2016, inexperience at QB could sink us. What good will it matter if Robinson, Fuller, Folston, Bryant, Hunter, Brent, and Adams are all there if the QB isn't ready? A 2 QB system could help us right now AND help us build for the future.

There's an old coaches saying, "If you have two QB's, you have no QB's".
 

Booslum31

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It might be good if Zaire got about 30-40% of first team snaps this week and then the first time Golson puts the ball on the ground or throws a stupid pass he get's hooked. I still think he represents our best chance to win but that's mainly because i've only seen tidbits of Zaire.
 

BobbyMac

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It might be good if Zaire got about 30-40% of first team snaps this week and then the first time Golson puts the ball on the ground or throws a stupid pass he get's hooked. I still think he represents our best chance to win but that's mainly because i've only seen tidbits of Zaire.

That's fair. In a comparable situation, tOSU fans thought the sky was falling when Miller went down, JT Barrett has turned out to be a better QB IMO. He and Malik have a similar skill set and coming out of high school were rated neck and neck.

.
 

IrishinSyria

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Unless Golson drastically changes his attitude, becomes a man, so to speak, and really grows up, I don't think he will be successful at ND. The pressure is too much, you either thrive or die from it. So far, Golson had died by it. I personally can't imagine him changing as much as he needs too. He's got great talent but great talent without great character/personality/attide does not carry a team or individuals to greatness.

So just to be clear, when it was 4th and 11 in the freezing rain against Stanford and ND needed a touchdown to win, Golson couldn't handle the pressure?

Or when ND got the ball at FSU's 49 yard line with 2:53 left in the 4th, Golson couldn't take the national spotlight and choked?

Or in 2012, when the #5 Irish were tied at 13-13 with the #8 Sooners with 8 minutes to go, it was Golson who folded under the pressure in his 8th start as an NCAA quarterback, right?

Don't get me wrong, Golson's turnover bug has become a huge issue. But it's absolutely crazy that people are saying he can't handle the pressure/isn't a leader/whatever. He's consistently shown he's got balls of steel in high pressure situations.
 

pkt77242

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So just to be clear, when it was 4th and 11 in the freezing rain against Stanford and ND needed a touchdown to win, Golson couldn't handle the pressure?

Or when ND got the ball at FSU's 49 yard line with 2:53 left in the 4th, Golson couldn't take the national spotlight and choked?

Or in 2012, when the #5 Irish were tied at 13-13 with the #8 Sooners with 8 minutes to go, it was Golson who folded under the pressure in his 8th start as an NCAA quarterback, right?

Don't get me wrong, Golson's turnover bug has become a huge issue. But it's absolutely crazy that people are saying he can't handle the pressure/isn't a leader/whatever. He's consistently shown he's got balls of steel in high pressure situations.

I was completely with you till the bold. I agree that he doesn't fold under pressure but I think criticism of his leadership is definitely fair game.
 

IrishinSyria

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I was completely with you till the bold. I agree that he doesn't fold under pressure but I think criticism of his leadership is definitely fair game.

To be fair, I don't have as much of a read on that as I do on his ability under pressure, because I can't directly observe the impact he has on the guys around him. I certainly don't read as much into his interactions on the sideline with Kelly as others on this board do, because players looking like they'd rather be anywhere else while Kelly turns purple screaming at them is a long tradition at ND. It's happened to Crist, Rees, T.J. Jones, Golson, etc...

That being said, I do get the sense that the team truly believes in Golson. If you could get the honest opinion of every player in that locker room, I don't think one would point to Golson as a reason why the season has taken an ugly turn. With one exception. I think Golson would blame Golson. He's taken full accountability for his mistakes. He didn't point the finger at his O-line or the coaches or the defense or CRob after the ASU game. He pointed the finger at himself.

So yea, somebody who rises up to the big moments, who has the respect of his teammates and his coaches, and who takes responsibility for his mistakes... that sounds a lot like a leader to me.
 

pkt77242

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To be fair, I don't have as much of a read on that as I do on his ability under pressure, because I can't directly observe the impact he has on the guys around him. I certainly don't read as much into his interactions on the sideline with Kelly as others on this board do, because players looking like they'd rather be anywhere else while Kelly turns purple screaming at them is a long tradition at ND. It's happened to Crist, Rees, T.J. Jones, Golson, etc...

That being said, I do get the sense that the team truly believes in Golson. If you could get the honest opinion of every player in that locker room, I don't think one would point to Golson as a reason why the season has taken an ugly turn. With one exception. I think Golson would blame Golson. He's taken full accountability for his mistakes. He didn't point the finger at his O-line or the coaches or the defense or CRob after the ASU game. He pointed the finger at himself.

So yea, somebody who rises up to the big moments, who has the respect of his teammates and his coaches, and who takes responsibility for his mistakes... that sounds a lot like a leader to me.

On the opposite spectrum I would point out that he has very poor body language on the sideline and doesn't really cheer for the D, he just sits on the bench when the O isn't on the field. I am not saying that he isn't a leader, but there is some question of his leadership so I think that it is a fair thing to discuss and debate.
 

IrishinSyria

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One last thing about EG: for as good as the 2012 team was, especially the D, I don't think 12-0 happens without him. Even though Kelly had him on a tight leash, he made a ton of huge plays when the team needed him to. I watched ND beat USC to finish 12-0 from Afghanistan. That was a highlight of the deployment for me, and the best moment for Notre Dame football in 20 years.

Maybe I'm soft as a fan, but I am thankful to EG for his role in that moment. So unless it becomes crystal freaking clear that he is a net negative to the team, I'm never going to be rooting for the next man in to come up and take his spot.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/3qfgese3lgM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

IrishinSyria

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On the opposite spectrum I would point out that he has very poor body language on the sideline and doesn't really cheer for the D, he just sits on the bench when the O isn't on the field. I am not saying that he isn't a leader, but there is some question of his leadership so I think that it is a fair thing to discuss and debate.

I don't buy into the theory that good leadership is observable to fans. Some people say he sulks on the sidelines, I think he looks focused. Cheerleaders and walk-ons are there to cheer.
 

pkt77242

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I don't buy into the theory that good leadership is observable to fans. Some people say he sulks on the sidelines, I think he looks focused. Cheerleaders and walk-ons are there to cheer.

I disagree completely. Look at the best leaders out their in football and you can see them active on the sideline. Pumping players up, coaching other players, encouraging a player that just made a bad play, or even sometimes getting in the face of a player that needs that. He doesn't do those things. Sorry. He might be a good leader off the field, or even on the practice field but when the game starts he fades to the background.
 

IrishinSyria

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I disagree completely. Look at the best leaders out their in football and you can see them active on the sideline. Pumping players up, coaching other players, encouraging a player that just made a bad play, or even sometimes getting in the face of a player that needs that. He doesn't do those things. Sorry. He might be a good leader off the field, or even on the practice field but when the game starts he fades to the background.

I think that's a fine and pretty traditional point of view. I completely disagree with it (though I wouldn't say that good leaders necessarily don't do any of the things you listed). My experience with sports is that people tune out the loud people pretty quickly. I don't know what you mean when you say "look at the best leaders out there in football." I think leadership is so intertwined with trust that it's not really possible to get a sense of who is really perceived as a good leader within the brotherhood of a team. Watch any sideline and you'll see a lot of activity: yelling, talking, encouraging, etc... If the camera catches a guy who does a lot of that and is also good, they will identify him as a good leader. I don't think that is necessarily true.
 

BobbyMac

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Body language and physical mannerisms are very important when it comes to leadership. Ask Jay Cutler. That's partly why EG is now known as Black Cutler in our circle... the other part is his penchant for turnovers.
 

IrishJayhawk

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I think that's a fine and pretty traditional point of view. I completely disagree with it (though I wouldn't say that good leaders necessarily don't do any of the things you listed). My experience with sports is that people tune out the loud people pretty quickly. I don't know what you mean when you say "look at the best leaders out there in football." I think leadership is so intertwined with trust that it's not really possible to get a sense of who is really perceived as a good leader within the brotherhood of a team. Watch any sideline and you'll see a lot of activity: yelling, talking, encouraging, etc... If the camera catches a guy who does a lot of that and is also good, they will identify him as a good leader. I don't think that is necessarily true.

I tend to agree. Loud leadership is very often for show. I think of a guy like Tom Brady who was getting lambasted earlier in the year for "sulking" on the sidelines. He's the perfect example of a guy who doesn't get too high and doesn't get too low. But he does his work, earns his respect, and is having another sick season.
 
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Rocket89

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Body language and physical mannerisms are very important when it comes to leadership. Ask Jay Cutler. That's partly why EG is now known as Black Cutler in our circle... the other part is his penchant for turnovers.

It certainly is for fans who are only making this basis during games. And during the few moments when things go badly. And during a few snippets of camera time. Without any context of speech and communication. You're not only missing the behind the scenes leadership the other 6 days of the week, it's a judgement based on roughly 20 seconds of camera time on a Saturday only.

On top of that, these highly subjective leadership tests based on body language have become a self-fulfilling prophesy in most regards, which this past weekend's Louisville game proved.

"Golson looked defeated after the fumble, sit him down for a series or two."

Boom, leadership evaluation complete. What happens after that is immaterial and here we are several days later using that contortion of face muscles as ammo against Golson's leadership. The fact that he re-grouped and balled out in the second half? That's not important.

A lot of this is really silly. It's one thing when Dayne Crist gets that deer in the headlights look and follows it up by being unproductive on the field. Then it's fair to make an inference to his body language and how that is affecting the team via leadership. But I really see none of that with Golson.

At any rate, I think there are 2 reasons why people jump to a lot of conclusions with Golson's body language:

1) When mistakes happen he tends toward 'sad' more than 'angry.' Not always though. And this certainly doesn't make him much different than hundreds of other quarterbacks.

2) His "look to the sidelines for calls" face has a natural wide-eyed glance to it that makes him look unsure of himself. I honestly don't read that much into it. Winston squints and looks like a 'tard quite often in the same situations.
 

NDohio

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I disagree completely. Look at the best leaders out their in football and you can see them active on the sideline. Pumping players up, coaching other players, encouraging a player that just made a bad play, or even sometimes getting in the face of a player that needs that. He doesn't do those things. Sorry. He might be a good leader off the field, or even on the practice field but when the game starts he fades to the background.

The bolded is completely untrue. I have seen EG approach Carlisle, and Chris Brown a ton this year when they have run wrong routes or had bad drops. In the beginning of the year he was all over Will Fuller when he had a few drops. C-Rob has publicly stated that EG rallies the offense on a regular basis when they are down or not performing well. EG was one of the first people to approach Cam after the fumble. Remember his reaction when Malik had his long run against Rice? He was ecstatic for him.

I don't like his body language after he makes a mistake and BK is talking to him, but he doesn't show the same mannerisms towards his teammates when they make mistakes.
 

ThePiombino

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It might be good if Zaire got about 30-40% of first team snaps this week and then the first time Golson puts the ball on the ground or throws a stupid pass he get's hooked. I still think he represents our best chance to win but that's mainly because i've only seen tidbits of Zaire.

Zaire would need a HELLUVA lot more 1st team snaps than that to be even remotely ready to take the reigns against SC.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Winston squints and looks like a 'tard quite often in the same situations.

djrqq6

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IrishBlood81

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So just to be clear, when it was 4th and 11 in the freezing rain against Stanford and ND needed a touchdown to win, Golson couldn't handle the pressure?

Or when ND got the ball at FSU's 49 yard line with 2:53 left in the 4th, Golson couldn't take the national spotlight and choked?

Or in 2012, when the #5 Irish were tied at 13-13 with the #8 Sooners with 8 minutes to go, it was Golson who folded under the pressure in his 8th start as an NCAA quarterback, right?

Don't get me wrong, Golson's turnover bug has become a huge issue. But it's absolutely crazy that people are saying he can't handle the pressure/isn't a leader/whatever. He's consistently shown he's got balls of steel in high pressure situations.

I should have been more clear. Its not in game pressure that I was talking about really, performance-wise, he has done pretty well as you stated.
Its the fact that he makes a game altering mistake and walks away from his Coach when Kelly was talking to him. That shows he cannot take the pressure of what it means to be a Quarterback at ND. In press conferences...he is a very poor communicator.
He doesn't seem, and this is all just my perception and imho, like he thrives in the light of a Notre Dame quarterback. I would almost call him disrespectful to the position. I don't see that he is just in love with Notre Dame and what I represents...like Joe Schmidt per say.
He doesn't exude an aura of winning and energy.
I definitely do not agree that he is much of a leader. You just see his body language, his communication with the players and it does not come off as inspiring or motivating.
Hopefully he comes around...and besides, what do I know?
 
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