Rumored Violations

[Huntr]

Well it doesn't seem like we'll hear anything today, but maybe someone will poop in a sink?

That's disgusting!
- Najeh Davenport

 

[Cali_domer]

So I assume nothing happened...

 

[CarrollVermin]

So I assume nothing happened...

No...nothing happened today, and nothing will happen until the Dean's decide that their asses have been kissed enough to do something about it...which by normal clocks should be next to never.

 

[BigIrish]

I've worked in higher education for more than 14 years now. I'm not sure I buy the notion that the deans would be holding up this process out of spite, conceit, arrogance or otherwise. In higher ed, even on the academic side of things, MOST administrators are really trying to play on the same team and work toward a common goal. An administrator that was intentionally being obstructionist and holding up the process would in all likelihood get called out on the carpet by a superior.

People like to think that higher ed leadership is comprised of a bunch of academic purists who live in their ivory towers, immune to the pressures of the outside world. While that mentality exists to a certain degree among the faculty, most of the leadership know like the rest of us that money makes the world go around, and in Notre Dame's case, aren't interested in killing off the cash cow that helps to pay for their lofty salaries.

That said, higher education moves at a glacially slow pace. It's nothing like the corporate environment that most you are used to. I think that's the hardest part for a lot of fans - accepting the fact that there's probably not a conspiracy to exert control over ND athletics, and that it's more likely just the fact that the gears of progress move very, very slowly in higher education.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I've worked in higher education for more than 14 years now. I'm not sure I buy the notion that the deans would be holding up this process out of spite, conceit, arrogance or otherwise. In higher ed, even on the academic side of things, MOST administrators are really trying to play on the same team and work toward a common goal. An administrator that was intentionally being obstructionist and holding up the process would in all likelihood get called out on the carpet by a superior.

People like to think that higher ed leadership is comprised of a bunch of academic purists who live in their ivory towers, immune to the pressures of the outside world. While that mentality exists to a certain degree among the faculty, most of the leadership know like the rest of us that money makes the world go around, and in Notre Dame's case, aren't interested in killing off the cash cow that helps to pay for their lofty salaries.

That said, higher education moves at a glacially slow pace. It's nothing like the corporate environment that most you are used to. I think that's the hardest part for a lot of fans - accepting the fact that there's probably not a conspiracy to exert control over ND athletics, and that it's more likely just the fact that the gears of progress move very, very slowly in higher education.

Good post.

 

[wizards8507]

I've worked in higher education for more than 14 years now. I'm not sure I buy the notion that the deans would be holding up this process out of spite, conceit, arrogance or otherwise. In higher ed, even on the academic side of things, MOST administrators are really trying to play on the same team and work toward a common goal. An administrator that was intentionally being obstructionist and holding up the process would in all likelihood get called out on the carpet by a superior.

People like to think that higher ed leadership is comprised of a bunch of academic purists who live in their ivory towers, immune to the pressures of the outside world. While that mentality exists to a certain degree among the faculty, most of the leadership know like the rest of us that money makes the world go around, and in Notre Dame's case, aren't interested in killing off the cash cow that helps to pay for their lofty salaries.

That said, higher education moves at a glacially slow pace. It's nothing like the corporate environment that most you are used to. I think that's the hardest part for a lot of fans - accepting the fact that there's probably not a conspiracy to exert control over ND athletics, and that it's more likely just the fact that the gears of progress move very, very slowly in higher education.

Standing ovation.

 

[IrishLion]

Which ultimately is the disfunction of this thread. This is sloppy. Pham.... Get on your boys!!!!!!!

When there is ACTUAL news, it will dominate the conversation in this thread. It will go back on-topic when the time is right.

Having said that, the jesters have been allowed their prevalent fun in this thread because no fan base is better with misery and gallows humor than the ND fan base.

Laugh and embrace the random, rather than being a miserable IrishPat about everything.

 

[CarrollVermin]

I've worked in higher education for more than 14 years now. I'm not sure I buy the notion that the deans would be holding up this process out of spite, conceit, arrogance or otherwise. In higher ed, even on the academic side of things, MOST administrators are really trying to play on the same team and work toward a common goal. An administrator that was intentionally being obstructionist and holding up the process would in all likelihood get called out on the carpet by a superior.

People like to think that higher ed leadership is comprised of a bunch of academic purists who live in their ivory towers, immune to the pressures of the outside world. While that mentality exists to a certain degree among the faculty, most of the leadership know like the rest of us that money makes the world go around, and in Notre Dame's case, aren't interested in killing off the cash cow that helps to pay for their lofty salaries.

That said, higher education moves at a glacially slow pace. It's nothing like the corporate environment that most you are used to. I think that's the hardest part for a lot of fans - accepting the fact that there's probably not a conspiracy to exert control over ND athletics, and that it's more likely just the fact that the gears of progress move very, very slowly in higher education.

As a guy that has worked in academics for ten years and a graduate of ND, I would agree with you that lumping the profession together can be difficult. However, having experience on that campus and understanding how things work there, I would have to disagree with a lot of what you are saying.

An academic Dean has one large responsibility, and that is to preserve the integrity and rigor of their program. They also have a secondary responsibility to provide for the continued growth and development of their students, while ensuring that they are making satisfactory and timely progress towards graduation. It is this secondary responsibility, that I strongly believe that they have failed.

I do not believe that there is a conspiracy, but as you noted the academic process can be slow. Still, that is not an excuse to hold a student in academic limbo for this long. Once the preliminary investigation had been completed and the information was provided to the proper channels, it is in their best interest, and the interest of the student, to render a decision as quickly as possible. With the semester in its infancy, the student athlete who faced academic suspension could have then enrolled at a community college to ensure that they continued to make timely progress towards completion. Further, it makes no sense to delay such hearings or decisions as it places an undue financial burden on the student (yes, these are athletes, thus they are covered by scholarship...but in general) to have to pay for a semester that they will not be able to complete (in the institutions that I have been at, the last day to withdraw is early, and there are no refunds, not sure what the ND policy is).

With all of the evidence presumably in front of them, they should have a desire to act in the best interest of all parties and make this a top priority. It is here that I feel the respective Dean(s) have failed. I tend to be of the opinion that they enjoy the attention and being in control. That may be different from your view point, but I play off of my personal experience (and certainly respect yours).

 

[luckathe1]

I've worked in higher education for more than 14 years now. I'm not sure I buy the notion that the deans would be holding up this process out of spite, conceit, arrogance or otherwise. In higher ed, even on the academic side of things, MOST administrators are really trying to play on the same team and work toward a common goal. An administrator that was intentionally being obstructionist and holding up the process would in all likelihood get called out on the carpet by a superior.

People like to think that higher ed leadership is comprised of a bunch of academic purists who live in their ivory towers, immune to the pressures of the outside world. While that mentality exists to a certain degree among the faculty, most of the leadership know like the rest of us that money makes the world go around, and in Notre Dame's case, aren't interested in killing off the cash cow that helps to pay for their lofty salaries.

That said, higher education moves at a glacially slow pace. It's nothing like the corporate environment that most you are used to. I think that's the hardest part for a lot of fans - accepting the fact that there's probably not a conspiracy to exert control over ND athletics, and that it's more likely just the fact that the gears of progress move very, very slowly in higher education.

Then feed the cow already.

 

[aubeirish]

This thread has gotten pretty shiity!

Yea, a month ago. I am hoping for a new thread if something does happen.

 

[Irish#1]

I am proud to say I have nothing important or intelligent to add to this thread at the moment.

 

[BigIrish]

As a guy that has worked in academics for ten years and a graduate of ND, I would agree with you that lumping the profession together can be difficult. However, having experience on that campus and understanding how things work there, I would have to disagree with a lot of what you are saying.

An academic Dean has one large responsibility, and that is to preserve the integrity and rigor of their program. They also have a secondary responsibility to provide for the continued growth and development of their students, while ensuring that they are making satisfactory and timely progress towards graduation. It is this secondary responsibility, that I strongly believe that they have failed.

I do not believe that there is a conspiracy, but as you noted the academic process can be slow. Still, that is not an excuse to hold a student in academic limbo for this long. Once the preliminary investigation had been completed and the information was provided to the proper channels, it is in their best interest, and the interest of the student, to render a decision as quickly as possible. With the semester in its infancy, the student athlete who faced academic suspension could have then enrolled at a community college to ensure that they continued to make timely progress towards completion. Further, it makes no sense to delay such hearings or decisions as it places an undue financial burden on the student (yes, these are athletes, thus they are covered by scholarship...but in general) to have to pay for a semester that they will not be able to complete (in the institutions that I have been at, the last day to withdraw is early, and there are no refunds, not sure what the ND policy is).

With all of the evidence presumably in front of them, they should have a desire to act in the best interest of all parties and make this a top priority. It is here that I feel the respective Dean(s) have failed. I tend to be of the opinion that they enjoy the attention and being in control. That may be different from your view point, but I play off of my personal experience (and certainly respect yours).

I wouldn't venture a guess as to when ND's withdrawal deadlines are or what the cutoff might be for a refund on tuition. Those are valid points that you make. But I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the semester being in its infancy. At this point in time, two weeks into the semester, academic administrators are awash in meetings and processes that are often shelved for the summer due to faculty departures associated with summer vacations, etc. As I'm sure you're aware, the first few weeks of the fall semester are among the busiest times of the entire calendar year, as the university, in a lot of respects, emerges from the slumber of the summer months. (I work in corporate fundraising, so we don't get the lull that comes with the summer season.)

Getting on a dean's or VP's schedule at the moment would be a nightmare for me, and pulling together multiples with such titles in the same room for an extended period of time would be near impossible. I'm sure it's no better at ND. I would certainly like to see ND's administrators clear their calendars and get this wrapped up - no doubt about it. But realistically, that would likely mean rescheduling meetings that have already been in the works for weeks or months. The timing of this investigation is what is most unfortunate...Had this happened at the end of the spring semester with the summer to mull it over, I'm confident we'd have brought the matter to a close by the start of the fall semester.

Acknowledging once again that we don't know what we don't know (i.e., there may be complicating matters that we're entirely unaware of) I'm still confident that they'll have it wrapped up prior to the Syracuse game, and for the ND fan in me, that's not nearly fast enough. But realistically, that's probably a reasonable time frame considering the pace of higher ed and the input that needs to be considered. Setting aside the philosophical questions about the honor code and how to enforce it, the mere question of going back over prior semesters, adjusting grades (possibly to class failures), calculating new GPAs, and determining eligibility is in and of itself a substantial, lengthy process.

 

[Cali_domer]

Yea, a month ago. I am hoping for a new thread if something does happen.

I certainly hope not, this thread needs a conclusion and that will happen when the 5 fate is decided.

 

[BGIF]

Then feed the cow already.

Just because they aren't interested in killing off the cow doesn't mean they're going to feed it BGH either.

 

[WestCoast]

I once worked with a guy named Ed who was taller than me. Hard worker. Nice guy that higher Ed was.

 

[BGIF]

I've worked in higher education for more than 14 years now. I'm not sure I buy the notion that the deans would be holding up this process out of spite, conceit, arrogance or otherwise. In higher ed, even on the academic side of things, MOST administrators are really trying to play on the same team and work toward a common goal. An administrator that was intentionally being obstructionist and holding up the process would in all likelihood get called out on the carpet by a superior.

People like to think that higher ed leadership is comprised of a bunch of academic purists who live in their ivory towers, immune to the pressures of the outside world. While that mentality exists to a certain degree among the faculty, most of the leadership know like the rest of us that money makes the world go around, and in Notre Dame's case, aren't interested in killing off the cash cow that helps to pay for their lofty salaries.

That said, higher education moves at a glacially slow pace. It's nothing like the corporate environment that most you are used to. I think that's the hardest part for a lot of fans - accepting the fact that there's probably not a conspiracy to exert control over ND athletics, and that it's more likely just the fact that the gears of progress move very, very slowly in higher education.

Thank you!

 

[Blaise]

hey man i dont know but you may want to pick a user name that isnt your email address.

True... I wouldn't want my user name to be TailHunter69@PlayonPlayer.com

 

[BGIF]

As a guy that has worked in academics for ten years and a graduate of ND, I would agree with you that lumping the profession together can be difficult. However, having experience on that campus and understanding how things work there, I would have to disagree with a lot of what you are saying.

An academic Dean has one large responsibility, and that is to preserve the integrity and rigor of their program. They also have a secondary responsibility to provide for the continued growth and development of their students, while ensuring that they are making satisfactory and timely progress towards graduation. It is this secondary responsibility, that I strongly believe that they have failed.

I do not believe that there is a conspiracy, but as you noted the academic process can be slow. Still, that is not an excuse to hold a student in academic limbo for this long. Once the preliminary investigation had been completed and the information was provided to the proper channels, it is in their best interest, and the interest of the student, to render a decision as quickly as possible. With the semester in its infancy, the student athlete who faced academic suspension could have then enrolled at a community college to ensure that they continued to make timely progress towards completion. Further, it makes no sense to delay such hearings or decisions as it places an undue financial burden on the student (yes, these are athletes, thus they are covered by scholarship...but in general) to have to pay for a semester that they will not be able to complete (in the institutions that I have been at, the last day to withdraw is early, and there are no refunds, not sure what the ND policy is).

With all of the evidence presumably in front of them, they should have a desire to act in the best interest of all parties and make this a top priority. It is here that I feel the respective Dean(s) have failed. I tend to be of the opinion that they enjoy the attention and being in control. That may be different from your view point, but I play off of my personal experience (and certainly respect yours).

Thank you both!

 

[BGIF]

FYI

FYI

Official University of Notre Dame and St. Mary's College Joint Academic Year Calendar For 2014-2015

http://registrar.nd.edu/pdf/yr2014_15.pdf

Oct 31 Friday Last day for course discontinuance at Notre Dame

 

[Cackalacky]

I have sent a PM to the user so lets not get out of hand here. I will be deleting those posts.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I don't think that whatever happens, this semester academically is in doubt. I think that they would be able to complete the semester, and have it count. Wouldn't one expect a suspension to start next semester?

And if it were an expulsion, having one more semester of credit on scholarship would be a plus, wouldn't it?

The think I cannot get is why no one would know if the offense was academic dishonesty; and if player eligibility was affected so games had to be vacated. Because if that is true, and the way this thing unfolded was to avoid improprieties and getting slapped with an institutional control violation by the NCAA, wouldn't quicker, decisive resolution be what everyone was after?

The longer it goes on, the less any of it makes sense.

 

[BigIrish]

I don't think that whatever happens, this semester academically is in doubt. I think that they would be able to complete the semester, and have it count. Wouldn't one expect a suspension to start next semester?

And if it were an expulsion, having one more semester of credit on scholarship would be a plus, wouldn't it?

The think I cannot get is why no one would know if the offense was academic dishonesty; and if player eligibility was affected so games had to be vacated. Because if that is true, and the way this thing unfolded was to avoid improprieties and getting slapped with an institutional control violation by the NCAA, wouldn't quicker, decisive resolution be what everyone was after?

The longer it goes on, the less any of it makes sense.

The players are still in classes, so at this point, their academic standing on the semester is not in jeopardy.

To your point about institutional control and the NCAA, I would make a couple of observations...First and foremost, taking one-two months to come to a resolution to an investigation that results in expulsions and vacated games is, in the eyes of the NCAA, a pretty darn fast and decisive resolution. We have not come close to dragging out this process too long in the eyes of anybody but ND fans.

Toward that end, a resolution that came any quicker might have the opposite effect with regard to the NCAA, who would like to be assured that a thorough, exhaustive investigation was conducted. Anything shorter could reasonably result in NCAA compliance officers scheduling a visit to check up on your work. I'm not sure anybody wants that.

 

[BGIF]

I don't think that whatever happens, this semester academically is in doubt. I think that they would be able to complete the semester, and have it count. Wouldn't one expect a suspension to start next semester?

And if it were an expulsion, having one more semester of credit on scholarship would be a plus, wouldn't it?

The think I cannot get is why no one would know if the offense was academic dishonesty; and if player eligibility was affected so games had to be vacated. Because if that is true, and the way this thing unfolded was to avoid improprieties and getting slapped with an institutional control violation by the NCAA, wouldn't quicker, decisive resolution be what everyone was after?

The longer it goes on, the less any of it makes sense.

The Stallings, Paterno, Tressel instant gratification approach.

 

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

 

[aubeirish]

I certainly hope not, this thread needs a conclusion and that will happen when the 5 fate is decided.

Or a mod could just close the thread then...

 

[CarrollVermin]

The players are still in classes, so at this point, their academic standing on the semester is not in jeopardy.

To your point about institutional control and the NCAA, I would make a couple of observations...First and foremost, taking one-two months to come to a resolution to an investigation that results in expulsions and vacated games is, in the eyes of the NCAA, a pretty darn fast and decisive resolution. We have not come close to dragging out this process too long in the eyes of anybody but ND fans.

Toward that end, a resolution that came any quicker might have the opposite effect with regard to the NCAA, who would like to be assured that a thorough, exhaustive investigation was conducted. Anything shorter could reasonably result in NCAA compliance officers scheduling a visit to check up on your work. I'm not sure anybody wants that.

I don't know on that one, and understand that each university is different. Largely, it will depend on what the outcome of the hearing is.

Should the student athletes take an "F" in the course, then their GPA would have to be re-calculated (which is a two minute process at the Registrar). If their overall GPA drops to below academic progression, they could be ineligible for the semester and could then continue on academic probation.

If they are suspended from the university, that should start immediately. I know that with other non-academic suspensions (caught smoking pot) those have begun immediately, and then the committee has the right to determine if the student can be eligible for re-admission.

So it largely will be determined by what the action on the part of the honesty committee is.

 

[ACamp1900]

FWIW,

Just got off the phone with our Academic Dean regarding a grade appeal that was submitted by my campus last month,... they just now got to the point of looking at it... was given the time frame of 3-6 weeks from today.

 

[TheSunIsRising]

The Stallings, Paterno, Tressel instant gratification approach.

In fairness, Gene Smith invested about 20 billion nanoseconds personally investigating the original tat-gate in December 2010. It's not like he rushed anything

 

[OCIrish]

Which ultimately is the disfunction of this thread. This is sloppy. Pham.... Get on your boys!!!!!!!

You've obviously missed the first 160 pages of this $hitty, fukking thread......just learn to roll with the crap, and other meaningless drivel that has been posted here, as about 95% of the posts do not really pertain to anything, that would otherwise mean anything.

 

[Cackalacky]

Yet 1/3 of all posts complain about how there is nothing to see, report, hear, post, address, or otherwise concern one's grey-matter with. I would just posit that if there is anything to know, it won't be posted here first.