Rumored Violations

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

If found guilty, they're not "our players." They're "dishonest individuals who tried to undermine the academic integrity of the University of Notre Dame."

If found guilty, they aren't your players. You may not speak for me, they are my players unless they do something egregious and cheating is not egregious to me. It's dishonest and deserving of punishment but they are the same players that signed to play for Notre Dame.

You may wipe your hands and move on. I will mourn their loss.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I don't know if I'm not being clear or what. I'm NOT outraged because Phillip Daniels is outraged. I understand FERPA. Nothing more needs to be said about this....

I'm NOT outraged by the result of the decision (unless it's something completely ridiculous) because we don't have one.

I'm outraged by the fact that it's been a month, the investigation ended two Thursdays ago, and they still have not made a decision. So what you're trying to pin me on isn't accurate.

You clearly understand FERPA. But Philip Daniels (and some in the media) doesn't. That's all I was saying.

 

[wizards8507]

It's been said that nothing good takes this long. Even with that, nothing takes this long. If they happen to be sent packing, the time it's taken is still beyond ridiculous.

April 2, 2010, Ohio State coach Jim Tressel receives an e-mail outlining concerns that players were improperly selling signed memorabilia in violation of NCAA rules. December 19, 2010 (eight months later), Ohio State delivers a self-report to the NCAA.

Reggie Bush receives improper benefits at the University of Southern California in 2004. Trojan football is hit with NCAA sanctions in 2010. After appeal, USC was stripped of the 2004 BCS championship in 2011 (seven years after the alleged improprieties).

Jerry Sandusky abuses children for over a decade starting in 1998 (likely earlier). The Freeh investigation begins in 2011 and publishes their report in 2012. The investigation began (at least) 13 years after the crimes started, and the report was published 8 months after that.

 

[pkt77242]

If found guilty, they aren't your players. You may not speak for me, they are my players unless they do something egregious and cheating is not egregious to me. It's dishonest and deserving of punishment but they are the same players that signed to play for Notre Dame.

You may wipe your hands and move on. I will mourn their loss.

Depends on what type of cheating. Someone helping you write one paper is not egregious but it is if you have someone write 20 papers for you. One person made a one time mistake while the other had no interest in "playing school".

 

[ACamp1900]

Those weren't investigation times wiz... I mean I get where you are coming from for the most part... but even if the players are guilty, the school is moving far too slowly and should warp this up soon so all involved can move forward.

 

[ab2cmiller]

It's been said, but it's worth repeating...the University can't legally talk to Philip Daniels. It's a violation of FERPA, which applies automatically unless DD has signed a release of some kind that allows his parents access to his academic records.

I would be shocked if Dad didn't tell his son that he had to sign the waiver. I personally don't have any problem with that. I'm guessing that FERPA has nothing to do with why Dad hasn't been told anything yet.

 

[koonja]

You clearly understand FERPA. But Philip Daniels (and some in the media) doesn't. That's all I was saying.

No worries, I was repsonding to Wizard, not you.

FWIW, not listed is the tweet to Phillip D where someone points out FERPA and he thanks them for the tweet and says it's a NCAA law that needs to be changed.

So I think he understands now, but might not hav ebefore.

 

[wizards8507]

Those weren't investigation times wiz... I mean I get where you are coming from for the most part... but even if the players are guilty, the school is moving far too slowly and should move forward soon so all involved can move forward.

Yeah, but far too slowly based on whose timeline? I'd love it if this thing had been wrapped after three days. I'm sure Ishaq's mom feels the same way. Everyone seems to be acting like this is the only investigation, disciplinary issue, or whatever you want to call it, that hasn't been wrapped up by the time Jeopardy comes on at 7:30.

 

[woolybug25]

Yeah, but far too slowly based on whose timeline? I'd love it if this thing had been wrapped after three days. I'm sure Ishaq's mom feels the same way. Everyone seems to be acting like this is the only investigation, disciplinary issue, or whatever you want to call it, that hasn't been wrapped up by the time Jeopardy comes on at 7:30.

Welp... I guess we would know that answer if there was any level of honest communication going on. Shoot... even the head coach of the football team is clueless on how long the process is supposed to be. This isn't a situation where its getting dragged out by legal process, there is simply no set agenda either outlined nor agreed upon by any party. It's a complete circus based off of unknown factors on the side of the university. There should be definitive timetables for the process. There should be a standard operating procedure. Guilty or Not Guilty... coming up with the process on the fly is inexcusable.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

April 2, 2010, Ohio State coach Jim Tressel receives an e-mail outlining concerns that players were improperly selling signed memorabilia in violation of NCAA rules. December 19, 2010 (eight months later), Ohio State delivers a self-report to the NCAA.

Reggie Bush receives improper benefits at the University of Southern California in 2004. Trojan football is hit with NCAA sanctions in 2010. After appeal, USC was stripped of the 2004 BCS championship in 2011 (seven years after the alleged improprieties).

Jerry Sandusky abuses children for over a decade starting in 1998 (likely earlier). The Freeh investigation begins in 2011 and publishes their report in 2012. The investigation began (at least) 13 years after the crimes started, and the report was published 8 months after that.

Those are three of the most egregious NCAA violations that have been uncovered in the last several years. And the lack of institutional control they revealed is a big reason why all three of those programs got hammered. None of that is relevant in the present case.

 

[wizards8507]

Welp... I guess we would know that answer if there was any level of honest communication going on. Shoot... even the head coach of the football team is clueless on how long the process is supposed to be. This isn't a situation where its getting dragged out by legal process, there is simply no set agenda either outlined nor agreed upon by any party. It's a complete circus based off of unknown factors on the side of the university. There should be definitive timetables for the process. There should be a standard operating procedure. Guilty or Not Guilty... coming up with the process on the fly is inexcusable.

You're conflating two different issues. What they do (the procedure) and when they do it (the timeline) are two different things. The procedure is very well defined and has been outlined and discussed here ad nauseam. The timeline is another question and doesn't appear all that clear.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Depends on what type of cheating. Someone helping you write one paper is not egregious but it is if you have someone write 20 papers for you. One person made a one time mistake while the other had no interest in "playing school".

This is the problem. Where is your line? Cheating is not egregious to me. It's dishonest. It's either one time dishonesty or a pattern of dishonesty but it's still simply dishonest. They chose an easy path, they didn't beat a woman. They didn't brutalize someone for fun.

Give them an F for the paper, an F for the class or an F for all classes they cheated in but it's still not something that warrants me to wipe my hands and detest them nor would it make me laugh hardily at everyone for the posts in this thread.

 

[wizards8507]

Those are three of the most egregious NCAA violations that have been uncovered in the last several years. And the lack of institutional control they revealed is a big reason why all three of those programs got hammered. None of that is relevant in the present case.

I'm not equating academic dishonesty with a decades long child sex scandal. I'm merely suggesting that maybe (just maybe) three weeks isn't that long in the grand scheme of things and that this has had a bigger magnifying glass than normal because it happened right at the beginning of the season/semester.

There's probably way too much bureaucracy and perhaps a dash of incompetence going on here, but I think people are going way overboard when they suggest (or state explicitly) that Notre Dame is somehow unique in its bureaucracy.

 

[woolybug25]

You're conflating two different issues. What they do (the procedure) and when they do it (the timeline) are two different things. The procedure is very well defined and has been outlined and discussed here ad nauseam. The timeline is another question and doesn't appear all that clear.

That's my point, the timeline should be clear, that is all part of due process. The timely and fair set of procedure. How would that fly in actual judicial proceedings if the courts simply followed the procedure, but at whatever pace they chose to? That's not how it's supposed to work.

There's probably way too much bureaucracy and perhaps a dash of incompetence going on here, but I think people are going way overboard when they suggest (or state explicitly) that Notre Dame is somehow unique in its bureaucracy.

I'm also not with you here, either. How is this level of bureaucracy not unique to Notre Dame? What other set of investigated violations have ever had this level? Most universities within the NCAA have even shown that they value "timeliness" over "truth", with UNC being a clear example of this. No one would have faulted the university for setting out a clear schedule of events for the rulings once they deemed the investigation complete. That's the issue here, no one is blaming Notre Dame for incompetency regarding the investigation. The university itself deemed the investigation complete. At that point, when it came down to actually having the hearings, they have handled this with vagueness and inconsistency.

 

[BobD]

Finally! nothing has happened

 

[Irish#1]

But every post gets us closer to the truth.

Does the OP get credit when they post? About 2,000 of these are Cali's! lol

 

[Irish#1]

It's been said that nothing good takes this long. Even with that, nothing takes this long. If they happen to be sent packing, the time it's taken is still beyond ridiculous.

Ernest and Julio Gallo would disagree with you.

 

[woolybug25]

Does the OP get credit when they post? About 2,000 of these are Cali's! lol

I'll tell you what! He has a racket going on with this thread.

He's the Jimmy Hoffa of IE.

If we don't reel this fella in, next thing you know, he'll have every trash truck in this town. Watch, next thing you know... he'll be shaking down the Gentleman's Club for "protection money".

 

[Cali_domer]

Does the OP get credit when they post? About 2,000 of these are Cali's! lol

I'll tell you what! He has a racket going on with this thread.

He's the Jimmy Hoffa of IE.

If we don't reel this fella in, next thing you know, he'll have every trash truck in this town. Watch, next thing you know... he'll be shaking down the Gentleman's Club for "protection money".

My only concern is the welfare of those affected.

 

[IrishLion]

I will lock this racket up, shut it down, and then start my own thread when news comes out.

But, I'm willing to listen to offers, Cali.

Don't make me strong-arm you into paying for protection.

 

[koonja]

I will lock this racket up, shut it down, and then start my own thread when news comes out.

But, I'm willing to listen to offers, Cali.

Don't make me strong-arm you into paying for protection.

We're not locking the thread, are we? It's not like we're getting out of control or ripping players.

 

[Cali_domer]

I will lock this racket up, shut it down, and then start my own thread when news comes out.

But, I'm willing to listen to offers, Cali.

Don't make me strong-arm you into paying for protection.

I'll split all earned money from this post on?

 

[GATTACA!]

April 2, 2010, Ohio State coach Jim Tressel receives an e-mail outlining concerns that players were improperly selling signed memorabilia in violation of NCAA rules. December 19, 2010 (eight months later), Ohio State delivers a self-report to the NCAA.

Reggie Bush receives improper benefits at the University of Southern California in 2004. Trojan football is hit with NCAA sanctions in 2010. After appeal, USC was stripped of the 2004 BCS championship in 2011 (seven years after the alleged improprieties).

Jerry Sandusky abuses children for over a decade starting in 1998 (likely earlier). The Freeh investigation begins in 2011 and publishes their report in 2012. The investigation began (at least) 13 years after the crimes started, and the report was published 8 months after that.

 

[IrishLax]

It's really absurd how far those incidents are away from what's being discussed here.

This isn't a case of counting the days between violation => report. If that were the case, you'd also be talking about "years" since most of what's in question.

No, instead what we're talking about is how from start of investigation => close of investigation => hearings => delivery of findings. Everything else is obfuscation.

From A to B seems reasonable considering length of the probe. From B to C is where we're at and what people are questioning what the heck is going on.

What's messed up is that it really seems like these kids are getting strung along. All sources on the "investigation" side think they're (mostly) done for... yet many of them are really under the impression that they're going to be reinstated, and are anxiously waiting for that moment.

Why do they think that? My baseless explanation is that they got "good copped" during the investigation and have an unrealistic expectation of what happens when you cheat at Notre Dame. I think everyone in the athletic department (save the people way up the food chain or in compliance) were getting strung along on how this would end and are starting to come around to it not being pretty.

 

[pkt77242]

We're not locking the thread, are we? It's not like we're getting out of control or ripping players.

Koon try reading. He was trying to exhort Cali to pay him to keep it open (all in good fun). Calm down.

 

[Cali_domer]

Koon try reading. He was trying to exhort Cali to pay him to keep it open (all in good fun). Calm down.

Usually extorting doesn't happen in such a public forum to be fair to koon. lol

 

[Bogtrotter07]

It's really absurd how far those incidents are away from what's being discussed here.

This isn't a case of counting the days between violation => report. If that were the case, you'd also be talking about "years" since most of what's in question.

No, instead what we're talking about is how from start of investigation => close of investigation => hearings => delivery of findings. Everything else is obfuscation.

From A to B seems reasonable considering length of the probe. From B to C is where we're at and what people are questioning what the heck is going on.

What's messed up is that it really seems like these kids are getting strung along. All sources on the "investigation" side think they're (mostly) done for... yet many of them are really under the impression that they're going to be reinstated, and are anxiously waiting for that moment.

Why do they think that? My baseless explanation is that they got "good copped" during the investigation and have an unrealistic expectation of what happens when you cheat at Notre Dame. I think everyone in the athletic department (save the people way up the food chain or in compliance) were getting strung along on how this would end and are starting to come around to it not being pretty.

I love my influence around here! I have seen obfuscation and conflation used correctly around here!

But here is what gets me now; hypocrisy. As many shades as possible.

Everyone has their own agenda with this situation, pro-football, anti-football, anti-admin, pro-mid-west-Ivy, anti-Kelly, it all has helped to spin this thing out of control. And only within the last few (relatively) posts have I seen someone even claim that their only interest is in the kids. This is very interesting, when looking at the furor of this thread before the Michigan jail-sex, beat-down, versus after. (Oh, I guess we are going to be just fine, depends on who is "we!")

And my last two favorite groups are the "pro-process admin apologists" (does anyone really need it) versus the "due process - that's what makes America great" group. We seem to have a number of people wanting to get into a fight about how great the process at Notre Dame is (right!?!?!), and those that consider it a slap in the face abridgement of our basic fundamental rights.

You know who the winners appear to be to me? Kelly, the team, and the staff? They have been business as usual and even keeled about this, logging the greatest victory since the end of the Holtz era! And the losers besides these kids are anyone with an ND degree. Regardless of how the process is going, the fact that the investigation was leaked by someone at ND with knowledge of it (confirmed), and someone from the NCAA to sports reporters (confirmed), with all the pissing in the public forum about it, diminishes that which is special about the mystique, just a little bit.

Sure people would have figured something was up when five players missed practice for a protracted period, but it wouldn't have been the same ugly thing. Although it may not have pointed out so clearly the length of time it took to adjudicate versus investigate.

 

[IrishLion]

We're not locking the thread, are we? It's not like we're getting out of control or ripping players.

Find the Godfather video game for the most basic crash-course on rackets, protection businesses, and strong-arming locals. I was just joining on the racket talk haha. Not shutting anything down.

Usually extorting doesn't happen in such a public forum to be fair to koon. lol

The Tony Soprano gif was much less subtle.

 

[Irish#1]

I love my influence around here! I have seen obfuscation and conflation used correctly around here!

But here is what gets me now; hypocrisy. As many shades as possible.

Everyone has their own agenda with this situation, pro-football, anti-football, anti-admin, pro-mid-west-Ivy, anti-Kelly, it all has helped to spin this thing out of control. And only within the last few (relatively) posts have I seen someone even claim that their only interest is in the kids. This is very interesting, when looking at the furor of this thread before the Michigan jail-sex, beat-down, versus after. (Oh, I guess we are going to be just fine, depends on who is "we!")

And my last two favorite groups are the "pro-process admin apologists" (does anyone really need it) versus the "due process - that's what makes America great" group. We seem to have a number of people wanting to get into a fight about how great the process at Notre Dame is (right!?!?!), and those that consider it a slap in the face abridgement of our basic fundamental rights.

You know who the winners appear to be to me? Kelly, the team, and the staff? They have been business as usual and even keeled about this, logging the greatest victory since the end of the Holtz era! And the losers besides these kids are anyone with an ND degree. Regardless of how the process is going, the fact that the investigation was leaked by someone at ND with knowledge of it (confirmed), and someone from the NCAA to sports reporters (confirmed), with all the pissing in the public forum about it, diminishes that which is special about the mystique, just a little bit.

Sure people would have figured something was up when five players missed practice for a protracted period, but it wouldn't have been the same ugly thing. Although it may not have pointed out so clearly the length of time it took to adjudicate versus investigate.

You've been rep'd my friend.

 

[WestCoast]

Usually extorting doesn't happen in such a public forum to be fair to koon. lol

When you have a lion who can roll on his back and touch his toes, you can exhort or extort in public as much as you want.