George Zimmerman Trial

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GoIrish41

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Serious question, not rhetorical... have you ever:
1. Taken courses on law.
2. Worked in anything related to law (paralegal, expert witness, etc.).

I'm curious because it seems like you have a very interesting grasp of the legal tenets involved here... and from what I understand, they aren't correct. But I could be wrong. I've only taken a handful of courses and they were all related to engineering law/ethics.

The reason why yelling fire in a movie theater is illegal is because, to paraphrase what you said, it has a bad intent and effect... and there is no other reason to do it except to endanger people.

Wearing a subjectively (this cannot be stressed enough...) offensive article of clothing is not equivalent to that. For example, if a woman walked into a mosque in Iran in shorts and a tank top they would find that HIGHLY offensive. That would not give them the right to beat the crap out of her, and she would have the right to defend herself if attacked.

The very nature of being "offended" is that it is a subjective emotion that comes from your own very personal reaction to something. In no universe does the original example -- wearing a shirt with a Confederate flag on it -- in and of itself possibly preclude someone from the right to self-defense. For the same logic as why someone wearing a pro-choice shirt with a chopped up baby on it into a church wouldn't lose the right to self-defense, etc.

It was years ago that I read something on what is known as the "Fighting Words Doctrine." I've attached a link to a scholarly paper on the topic. The law is not as cut and dried as you are suggesting. Anyway, you can read about it here http://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/vi...Ooy4g#search="case+law+fighting+words+upheld"
 

Irish Houstonian

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It was years ago that I read something on what is known as the "Fighting Words Doctrine." I've attached a link to a scholarly paper on the topic. The law is not as cut and dried as you are suggesting. Anyway, you can read about it here http://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/vi...Ooy4g#search="case+law+fighting+words+upheld"

But that only has to do with what the State can make criminal under the First Amendment. The doctrine itself literally has nothing to do with Self-Defense.
 

irishog77

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I kind of wish the ucla lawyer would come back on here and comment.


What did phork say to him? Something like, "I don't want to live anymore, will you represent me in my capital trial?" Ha! The Lax comments were great too.
 

GoIrish41

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But that only has to do with what the State can make criminal under the First Amendment. The doctrine itself literally has nothing to do with Self-Defense.

It has to do what is protected speech and what is simple unprotected provocation, no?
 

Irish Houstonian

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It has to do what is protected speech and what is simple unprotected provocation, no?

No. "Protected" in this context means what the State can't criminalize under the 1st. There's no legal doctrine w/in Self Defense called "unprotected provocation". (I mean, you can call something that if you want, but it has no legal significance. At least not in the U.S.)
 

GoIrish41

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No. "Protected" in this context means what the State can't criminalize under the 1st. There's no legal doctrine w/in Self Defense called "unprotected provocation". (I mean, you can call something that if you want, but it has no legal significance. At least not in the U.S.)

Clearly I'm not an attorney. I just remember reading about this years ago, and the piece tht stuck with me is that not all speech is free. I concede that my understanding of it my not be that deep, but I was always under the impression that purposefully provocative speech in not necessarily protected under the first amendment.
 

IrishLax

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It was years ago that I read something on what is known as the "Fighting Words Doctrine." I've attached a link to a scholarly paper on the topic. The law is not as cut and dried as you are suggesting. Anyway, you can read about it here http://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/vi...Ooy4g#search="case+law+fighting+words+upheld"

Yeah, I'm pretty familiar with this. Which is why I said above:
If you had eye witness testimony saying he went up all belligerent in the guy's face yelling and screaming racist stuff you'd (likely) get manslaughter.

The bottom line is that the act of wearing an "offensive" shirt in and of itself is not illegal nor does it cause the wearer to forfeit their right to self-defense. Other acts in conjunction with that is a potentially different story.

With respect to the Zimmerman trial, I've said from the beginning that there were a number of conditions that could've potentially caused Zimmerman to forfeit his right to self defense, including:
1. Having the gun drawn from the beginning.
2. Approaching Martin in any kind of threatening manner with (yelling, raised balled fists, saying anything racist, etc.)
3. Initiating physical contact.
etc.
etc.

Unfortunately, there were no witnesses to the beginning of the encounter that could testify to what happened... and all we had was Zimmerman's account. You are 100% right that there are things you cannot say or do... but it is my understanding that wearing a t-shirt with a Confederate flag on it is not one of them.
 

Whiskeyjack

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From the Economist:

Perhaps Mr Zimmerman would have been tripped up and found guilty of rashly killing an innocent were defendants in criminal trials forced to take the stand, but I'm glad they aren't. Perhaps the prosecution could have pinned it on him were it harder and generally less effective to plead self-defence, but I'm mostly glad it's not. I'm certainly open to the possibility that Florida's "stand your ground" law had something to do with the reasons the Sanford police initially declined to arrest Mr Zimmerman, or to investigate Mr Martin's death with all due care and zeal. Yet, as a general matter, the problem with America's criminal-justice system is not that it affords defendants too many protections.

In Texas you can get away with shooting someone to death if they're running away with your property. That's insane, and it's easy to see how a law like that rigs the system in favour of people with a lot of property—a class that remains disproportionately white and male. However, on the whole, our criminal-justice system is so frightfully racist because it's too easy for prosecutors, not because it's too hard. Of course, in a racist society, rules that help defendants are going to help the most privileged defendants the most, and that's maddening. But that shouldn't stop us from recognising that the least privileged, the most oppressed, the most discriminated against, are far and away most likely to stand accused. That's why I suspect that a legal system making it harder for the likes of Mr Zimmerman to get away with it would be a system of even more outrageous racial inequity.
 

woolybug25

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The whole Wooley scenario has one thing that would get the Confederate Flag wearing individual in a lil trouble, and that is you are not legally allowed to have a firearm in a bar, even with a CCW (not in FL). So, I have to say in Wooley's scenario, he probably would be charged with, at the very least, manslaughter.

Touché .... Change the location to a basketball court or restaraunt. Anywhere that its legal to conceal carry in.
 

RDU Irish

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In every state he is not guilty of anything if he reasonably believes he is in imminent danger of substantial physical injury.

But, if he is in a non-Stand Your Ground state, then he could have a duty to try and retreat first before shooting, if a reasonable person would have believed that such was possible.

Zimmerman's lack of attempt to retreat is clear evidence he is a racist for stereotyping TM as faster than him.

This whole thing was a joke. I hope the DA gets in front of a camera and gives the finger to the world for making them prosecute. I am just happy I haven't wasted any more time than necessary on this circus.
 

Irish Houstonian

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Clearly I'm not an attorney. I just remember reading about this years ago, and the piece tht stuck with me is that not all speech is free. I concede that my understanding of it my not be that deep, but I was always under the impression that purposefully provocative speech in not necessarily protected under the first amendment.

Basically, if it's a time-place-manner restriction, that's content-neutral (like needing a permit to have a rally in a park) then it's generally ok. But banning or prohibiting certain words based on their content or offensiveness will almost certainly be struck down under modern 1st jurisprudence. And that's whether they're provocative on purpose or not.

For example, a kid in a courtroom was ruled to be able to wear his "F@ck The Draft" t-shirt in a courtroom, free from criminal contempt (this was during Viet Nam). And a school was prohibted from suspending a student for a "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" parade float. The Court believes that government agencies just can't ban certain words because of their offensive content.
 

GoIrish41

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It's not a big assumption. If you completely disregard the defenseand rely solely on the evidence presented by the state, you could not reasonably conclude TM kindly introduced himself to GZ in an effort to avoid confrontation.

I assume, based on your previous posts, you really don't care about TM's response. Seems as though you believe GZ provoked the entire incident b/c he followed him, TM's response is irrelevant and GZ was not entitled to self defense b/c he aggressor. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I gather. If that is your position, we simply disagree. I believe GZ was well within his rights to follow him.

If the state had provided any evidence to suggest GZ initiated the confrontation (through physical contact or threatening words), I would have given him 20 years for manslaughter. They didn't. They did nothing. It's glaringly apparent TM sympathizers do not care about law and fact. They want "justice".

On the surface, you have nailed my position, but I have also played the scenario out in my mind a thousand times, and Zimmerman's story makes no sense. He was afraid of Martin, who was pacing around his truck and staring at him, so he says. It doesn't make too much sense that a guy who was frightened of another person would follow them into the darkness ... unless they knew they had an ace up their sleeve (a gun). If you follow that logic, you will come to the conclusion, as I have that the thought that is likely to have been going through his head at that point is, "if he jumps out at me, I'll put a cap in his *ss." That is a very likely mindset that was not even hinted at during the trial (one of the many failures of the prosecution in my estimation). I've also detailed the specifics of the fight that I find hard to believe in earlier posts. Now, as far as the beginning of the confrontation. There are a dozen things that make more sense than Martin lept out from behind the bushes and just coldcocked Zimmerman. This is the hazy part of the whole situation that nobody knows (except Zimmerman and Martin, until he was dead).

Perhaps the frightened man followed Martin into the darkness and because he was concerned for his own personal safety, pulled the gun before he did so. That is a plausible explaination for why Martin might have attacked him first (if, in fact, he did). The objects strewn all over the yard suggest a fight that covered a considerable amount of ground and, as eyewitness testimony suggested, the upper hand in the fight changed during the course of the fight.

Maybe, Zimmerman grabbed Martin by the arm, at which time Martin confronted him verbally and Zimmerman paniced and pulled his gun causing a physical confrontation because Martin was then fighting for his life, not the other way around. That, to me, makes more sense than Zimmerman's story, too.

It's not that I'm not concerned with Martin's reaction, it is just that whatever that was is not in evidence and we are left to speculate (or believe the self-serving and incoherent story of Zimmerman) to connect the dots. I think it is clear that Zimmerman misrepresented several facts in his account and if he was willing to lie about the details, who would anyone simply believe the rest of his account without trying to determine what makes more sense.
 

ACamp1900

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In my area of Cali we have a lot of Mexican-Americans (I guess) that wear a line of shirts that say something to the effect of "Not white, not Hispanic, not American... I'M MEXICAN" The shirts then goes into various details (there are a few differnt ones i have seen) on how Mexicans are at war with Americans, or how this is their land, etc. just various claims... I have seen some be very in your face about it with seemingly random people... I have witnessed arguments over these shirts but no violence... I cannot believe for the life of me that if some white guy went after one of these guys that the prosecutor’s office would go after the Hispanic/Mexican/whatever... sorry.

This is the only thing I could find online... one of the milder ones, but this is bascially what i am talking about just FYI...
Google Image Result for http://www.mexicauprising.net/images/zapata_small_tshirt.png
 
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drayer54

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Zimmerman's lack of attempt to retreat is clear evidence he is a racist for stereotyping TM as faster than him.

This whole thing was a joke. I hope the DA gets in front of a camera and gives the finger to the world for making them prosecute. I am just happy I haven't wasted any more time than necessary on this circus.

Nailed it!

If you think this guy
521832536_george_zimmerman_hearing_10_043013_xlarge.jpeg
is slower than this guy
Pg-12s-chamber-afp.jpg
then you must be an evil profiler!
 

GoIrish41

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Basically, if it's a time-place-manner restriction, that's content-neutral (like needing a permit to have a rally in a park) then it's generally ok. But banning or prohibiting certain words based on their content or offensiveness will almost certainly be struck down under modern 1st jurisprudence. And that's whether they're provocative on purpose or not.

For example, a kid in a courtroom was ruled to be able to wear his "F@ck The Draft" t-shirt in a courtroom, free from criminal contempt (this was during Viet Nam). And a school was prohibted from suspending a student for a "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" parade float. The Court believes that government agencies just can't ban certain words because of their offensive content.

Thanks for the clarification.
 

Emcee77

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Clearly I'm not an attorney. I just remember reading about this years ago, and the piece tht stuck with me is that not all speech is free. I concede that my understanding of it my not be that deep, but I was always under the impression that purposefully provocative speech in not necessarily protected under the first amendment.

Basically, if it's a time-place-manner restriction, that's content-neutral (like needing a permit to have a rally in a park) then it's generally ok. But banning or prohibiting certain words based on their content or offensiveness will almost certainly be struck down under modern 1st jurisprudence. And that's whether they're provocative on purpose or not.

For example, a kid in a courtroom was ruled to be able to wear his "F@ck The Draft" t-shirt in a courtroom, free from criminal contempt (this was during Viet Nam). And a school was prohibted from suspending a student for a "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" parade float. The Court believes that government agencies just can't ban certain words because of their offensive content.

Right. It's been a while but don't the Fighting Words cases involve police arresting someone to stop a fight from happening? It's a very different context from a self-defense case. And IIRC they really have to be fighting words. "Your mother is a ****ing c*cks*cking **** bitch!!!" etc. Wearing a confederate flag in a black neighborhood wouldn't do it.

The fighting words doctrine has no application to self-defense. You can defend yourself if you have a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm; if your fear of death or great bodily harm comes from retaliation for your initial act of physical aggression, any harm you commit in self-defense is no longer justified. But as far as I know it's never been held the fact that the government can interfere with your right to use "fighting words" means that "fighting words" can make a person an initial aggressor who loses his right to self-defense.
 

Irish Houstonian

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^Yeah, it isn't really germane to the Zimmerman case, but it came up so I thought we'd just run with it...It definitely isn't the most irrelevant thing that's been discussed so far...
 

Emcee77

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^Yeah, it isn't really germane to the Zimmerman case, but it came up so I thought we'd just run with it...It definitely isn't the most irrelevant thing that's been discussed so far...

Haha no, definitely not the most irrelevant. It was worth addressing. The magic of Lexis shows me that fighting words doctrine has come up in the context of self-defense before:

Defendants rely on the case of Terminiello v. Chicago, 337 U.S. 1 [69 S.Ct. 894, 93 L.Ed. 1131]. Terminiello was convicted of disorderly conduct after speaking in an auditorium under [*366] the auspices of the Christian Veterans of America. Outside the auditorium an angry and turbulent crowd gathered to protest the meeting. The crowd hurled rocks through the windows, broke down doors, and threatened to get beyond police control while Terminiello vigorously condemned them. Terminiello's speech, including his anti-Jewish epithets, provoked the audience to expressions of immediate anger, unrest, and alarm. The trial court instructed the jury it might find Terminiello guilty of inducing a breach of the peace if his behavior stirred the public to anger, invited dispute, brought about a condition of unrest, created a disturbance, or [***8] molested the inhabitants in the enjoyment of peace and quiet by arousing alarm.

Terminiello's conviction was held to violate the constitutional guarantee of free speech. "The ordinance as construed by the trial court seriously invaded this province. It permitted conviction of petitioner if his speech stirred people to anger, invited public dispute, or brought about a condition of unrest. A conviction resting on any of those grounds may not stand." (337 U.S. at p. 5.)

The prosecution challenges the applicability of Terminiello and in its brief squarely poses the legal issue between the parties to this case thus: "There emerges from this position [of defendants] the following legal proposition: That these five pickets had a constitutional right to dress in Nazi uniforms with helmets and swastika armbands, to go to the Shrine Auditorium carrying placards saying, 'Zionism is Treason', [etc.]; to march into a dense crowd they knew to be mostly Jewish, attending a celebration of the 15th Anniversary of Israel, and that the pickets had a right to do this regardless of the fact that it would inflame the crowd to violence. We are unable to agree that this is the law."

The prosecution [***9] goes on to argue that this activity of the defendants "was a highly insulting and aggressive act that does not permit [them] to claim that when the expectable violence occurred they were merely acting in self-defense."

CA(1)(1) Nonetheless, we think the existence of a constitutional right to speak, demonstrate, and picket on behalf of causes known [**60] to be highly offensive to those picketed was settled in Terminiello, where the court upheld such a right in sweeping terms and ruled that HN1under the First Amendment it cannot be made an offense "merely to invite dispute, or to bring about a condition of unrest." (337 U.S. at p. 6.)

People v. Huss, 241 Cal. App. 2d 361, 365-369 (Cal. App. 2d Dist. 1966)
 

IrishLax

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@Emcee/Houstonian

Not specifically talking about the "fighting words" doctrine specifically, but isn't it true that verbal actions can compromise your self defense argument under similar logic?

For instance, if you come up to someone saying "I'm going to kill you" or otherwise threatening them, and then they attack you, and you kill them in "self defense"... isn't there a valid legal argument to be made that the person who threatened cannot claim self defense?

Alternatively, can't you extend that to something like.... I don't know... Person A saying "I've got a gun" and then reaching in their jacket... doesn't Person B being threatened then have a right to self-defense at that point? Right? Because they reasonably fear for their life/bodily harm? So then by that fact, doesn't that undermine the ability for Person A to claim self-defense?

I guess what I'm getting at is that the same logic used for why a governing body can make "fighting words" illegal is also used for how words can undermine a self defense argument. Correct or incorrect?
 

GoIrish41

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@Emcee/Houstonian

Not specifically talking about the "fighting words" doctrine specifically, but isn't it true that verbal actions can compromise your self defense argument under similar logic?

For instance, if you come up to someone saying "I'm going to kill you" or otherwise threatening them, and then they attack you, and you kill them in "self defense"... isn't there a valid legal argument to be made that the person who threatened cannot claim self defense?

Alternatively, can't you extend that to something like.... I don't know... Person A saying "I've got a gun" and then reaching in their jacket... doesn't Person B being threatened then have a right to self-defense at that point? Right? Because they reasonably fear for their life/bodily harm? So then by that fact, doesn't that undermine the ability for Person A to claim self-defense?

I guess what I'm getting at is that the same logic used for why a governing body can make "fighting words" illegal is also used for how words can undermine a self defense argument. Correct or incorrect?

I'm not sure of the legal argument -- obviously I was wrong about the "fighting words" idea, but your logic seems very similar to what I was thinking. Welcome aboard :) I'd also be interested to hear the answer to this question.
 

GoIrish41

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If racism was ever a part of this whole tragic event, it is on full display now.

I don't disagree (believe it or not). What the media is doing right now is absolutely absurd. You would think this was a civil rights case, which it never has been. As I've said before, the only part of this case that had a racial element is that, IMO, Zimmerman profiled Martin and that is why he followed him. Everything that happened after that had nothing to do with race -- again, just my opinion.
 

Irish Houstonian

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@Emcee/Houstonian

Not specifically talking about the "fighting words" doctrine specifically, but isn't it true that verbal actions can compromise your self defense argument under similar logic?

For instance, if you come up to someone saying "I'm going to kill you" or otherwise threatening them, and then they attack you, and you kill them in "self defense"... isn't there a valid legal argument to be made that the person who threatened cannot claim self defense?

Alternatively, can't you extend that to something like.... I don't know... Person A saying "I've got a gun" and then reaching in their jacket... doesn't Person B being threatened then have a right to self-defense at that point? Right? Because they reasonably fear for their life/bodily harm? So then by that fact, doesn't that undermine the ability for Person A to claim self-defense?

I guess what I'm getting at is that the same logic used for why a governing body can make "fighting words" illegal is also used for how words can undermine a self defense argument. Correct or incorrect?

That's basically correct. Self-defense can only be invoked to repel "unlawful force". So if someone is already lawfully defending themselves against you, then you're not entitled to kill them under your own theory of self-defense.
 

Whiskeyjack

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That's basically correct. Self-defense can only be invoked to repel "unlawful force". So if someone is already lawfully defending themselves against you, then you're not entitled to kill them under your own theory of self-defense.

That's my understanding as well. If you're the aggressor, self-defense won't likely be available as a justification. Similarly, if you had a reasonable opportunity to deescalate-- say, when someone challenges you to fight in a bar-- and you don't at least try to avoid conflict... same result.

Assuming the prosecutor will have all the relevant facts (not the case in Zimmerman), you can't actively provoke an assault and then claim self-defense.
 

ShawneeIrish

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Easy there buddy, saying hoodies haven't become part of the hoodlum uniform speaks more to your lack of awareness of the real world. Don't ever, even for a second pretend you know anything about my character. There are a lot of things hoodlums wear that good people also wear. One of the favorite jackets of gang bangers here in the bay area is an Oakland Raiders jacket. That doesn't mean everyone wearing one is a hoodlum, just that hoodlums like them.

I stand by my comment. What people say can reflect on their character. What you said reflected poorly. I don't know anything about you, you could be an upstanding citizen of fine character, but I do know that comment reflected poorly.

Also I do live in the real world. Yes, some people who wear hoodies are up to no good, so are some people in virtually every type of clothing. Hoodies are a very item of clothing. Also the type of dress I have heard many talk about like sagging pants, hoodies, bandanas, etc. are a part of black youth culture (and other races as well) most of the people that dress that way are not fearsome criminals. Lastly, these "hoodlums" that everyone is so afraid of and worried about in the "real world" are often involved in drugs and crime because of the poverty and broken communities they come from. I have lived in an area like this, done work in jails, etc. so I do not think this is coming from a "lack of awareness." Most often acts of violence in rundown areas and by "hoodlum" drug dealers are directed at other "hoodlum" drug dealers. Yes, innocent people get caught up in it. Yes, property crime befalls innocent people. Yes, you could be a victim of violent crime. However, these threats are not nearly as great as many make them out to be. Certainly not so great as to justify following a kid around with a gun because he is in a "hoodlum uniform." Have a good day in your "real world."
 

ACamp1900

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Another meme attempt:

tevudu3y.jpg

smh, geez... I don't think a more attractive figure has been this ruined by plain stupidity... I honestly don't think I would touch it in a hypothetical world where she for some strange reason wanted me... honestly.
 

BobD

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I stand by my comment. What people say can reflect on their character. What you said reflected poorly. I don't know anything about you, you could be an upstanding citizen of fine character, but I do know that comment reflected poorly.

Also I do live in the real world. Yes, some people who wear hoodies are up to no good, so are some people in virtually every type of clothing. Hoodies are a very item of clothing. Also the type of dress I have heard many talk about like sagging pants, hoodies, bandanas, etc. are a part of black youth culture (and other races as well) most of the people that dress that way are not fearsome criminals. Lastly, these "hoodlums" that everyone is so afraid of and worried about in the "real world" are often involved in drugs and crime because of the poverty and broken communities they come from. I have lived in an area like this, done work in jails, etc. so I do not think this is coming from a "lack of awareness." Most often acts of violence in rundown areas and by "hoodlum" drug dealers are directed at other "hoodlum" drug dealers. Yes, innocent people get caught up in it. Yes, property crime befalls innocent people. Yes, you could be a victim of violent crime. However, these threats are not nearly as great as many make them out to be. Certainly not so great as to justify following a kid around with a gun because he is in a "hoodlum uniform." Have a good day in your "real world."


RRnhhqW.gif
 
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Polish Leppy 22

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1) This never had a shot of being a second degree murder case.

2) Feel awful for both families. One lost a son and Zimmerman (half joking) might need 24/7 security for the rest of his life. Crazy @$$holes on twitter threatening his life.

3) If GZ were black, this case wouldn't be national news and we never would have heard of these two guys. See: Chicago last week, Philadelphia just this past weekend. GZ has as much white in him as our president.

4) Damn the media for all they're doing to tear us apart. I listened to the "reverand" Sharpton last night and he talked like we were re-living Selma, AL.

5) For anyone who says, "why do you need a gun?", see Oakland, CA the past few days. Self defense.

6) This whole circus, and that's what the case was from the start, has brought out the worst in Hollywood actors and a few idiots from the NBA and NFL who have their foot in their mouth after sick, sometimes threatening posts on Twitter.

7) Glad we can come on here and, for the most part, talk about this all sensibly. I learned more about FL law in this thread than I ever anticipated when I joined the site in 2007.
 

ACamp1900

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1) This never had a shot of being a second degree murder case.

2) Feel awful for both families. One lost a son and Zimmerman (half joking) might need 24/7 security for the rest of his life. Crazy @$$holes on twitter threatening his life.

3) If GZ were black, this case wouldn't be national news and we never would have heard of these two guys. See: Chicago last week, Philadelphia just this past weekend. GZ has as much white in him as our president.

4) Damn the media for all they're doing to tear us apart. I listened to the "reverand" Sharpton last night and he talked like we were re-living Selma, AL.

5) For anyone who says, "why do you need a gun?", see Oakland, CA the past few days. Self defense.

6) This whole circus, and that's what the case was from the start, has brought out the worst in Hollywood actors and a few idiots from the NBA and NFL who have their foot in their mouth after sick, sometimes threatening posts on Twitter.

7) Glad we can come on here and, for the most part, talk about this all sensibly. I learned more about FL law in this thread than I ever anticipated when I joined the site in 2007.

agreed on all but points seven... it wasn't all sensible... lol

The Sharpton thing... smh... Selma???
 
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