George Zimmerman Trial

Status
Not open for further replies.

kmoose

Banned
Messages
10,298
Reaction score
1,181
What it does is demonstrate that Zimmerman was not truthful in his account. That leads to the question, "why would he embellish?" The logical answer to that question is that the fight did not occur in the way he is describing it (which is to say that the clarity of the self-defense argument was likely not apparent). Without a self-defense claim, Zimmerman would be waking up in prison this morning.

That's one explanation for Zimmerman telling the story wrong (which is just speculation, that he is telling it wrong), but not the only one. He obviously had head injuries. Perhaps one of the blows against the concrete concussed him, however slightly, and altered his recollection of the incident? Assuming that, because maybe Zimmerman got some of the details wrong, he is automatically lying and covering up, and therefore Martin was a completely innocent victim, is a serious stretch.
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,119
That's one explanation for Zimmerman telling the story wrong (which is just speculation, that he is telling it wrong), but not the only one. He obviously had head injuries. Perhaps one of the blows against the concrete concussed him, however slightly, and altered his recollection of the incident? Assuming that, because maybe Zimmerman got some of the details wrong, he is automatically lying and covering up, and therefore Martin was a completely innocent victim, is a serious stretch.

In fairness they were pretty big details that he repeated over and over again. Never suggested that Martin was a completely innocent victim, but he is not around to tell his version of the story and all we are left with is one that doesn't pass the sniff test.
 

ACamp1900

Counting my ‘bet against ND’ winnings
Messages
48,944
Reaction score
11,224
In fairness they were pretty big details that he repeated over and over again. Never suggested that Martin was a completely innocent victim, but he is not around to tell his version of the story and all we are left with is one that doesn't pass the sniff test.

Forgive me, because I am sure you have gone there already... but is a few setences could you state what you DO feel actually happened?? I'm curious as to how far off it is from Zimmerman's story.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
In fairness they were pretty big details that he repeated over and over again. Never suggested that Martin was a completely innocent victim, but he is not around to tell his version of the story and all we are left with is one that doesn't pass the sniff test.

Which, if we're being objective about it, means that the jury rendered a just verdict, and that this case is simply a tragedy in which both parties lost. Assuming the worst about Zimmerman is no more justifiable than profiling Martin as a dangerous thug.
 
Last edited:

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,119
Forgive me, because I am sure you have gone there already... but is a few setences could you state what you DO feel actually happened?? I'm curious as to how far off it is from Zimmerman's story.

My theory is that he pulled the gun out at the moment he decided he was going to follow Trayvon into the darkness behind the condos. With a gun in his hand, he confronted Martin and Martin logically viewed that as a threat and slugged Zimmerman in the face and a fight began. According to eyewitness testimony, Martin was on top AND Zimmerman was on top. I believe that is not conflicting testimony and, because there is a long trail of items belonging to both Zimmerman and Martin, it suggests a struggle was more than the stationary scuffle that Zimmerman said occurred with Zimmerman's head on the sidewalk and his body in the grass.

This paragraph explains why I believe the gun had to already be out (or at least it didn't come out when Zimmerman claims) In my view, there is absolutely no way he could have pulled the weapon out with Travon's knees in his armpits (as he described to his best friend the night of the incident), the gun snugly tucked into a holster inside the right, back hip and covered by a shirt and a jacket. If his story is to be believed, he reached around Travon's legs (instead of blocking some of the 25 blows that were being rained down upon him or cushioning the back of his head with a hand to keep Martin from continuing to bash his head onto the cement), under his body and maneuver his hand under two layers of clothing, over his belt and grab the gun, pull it from the holster and pull it back around the body of a man (who presumably did not try to stop him from doing this, even though he was supposedly in a dominent postition to prevent him from using the gun).

If Zimmerman had his gun out when the confrontation started, he can hardly claim self defense. I know it was more than a couple of sentences, but that is the scenario that I think makes the most sense, given what I know about the case.
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,119
Which, if we're being objective about it, means that the jury rendered a just verdict, and that this case is simply a tragedy in which both parties lost. Assuming the worst about Zimmerman is no more justifiable than profiling Martin as a dangerous thug.

He had no reason to profile Martin. He was walking home from the store minding his own business. Zimmerman told a false story -- a lie -- and therefore I have a reason not to believe him. I'm not arguing with the verdict at all. I think given the way the prosecution presented the evidence, the jury was right in finding him not guilty.
 

Rhode Irish

Semi-retired
Messages
7,057
Reaction score
900

That woman also referred to Trayvon Martin as a "colored boy" and has already signed a book deal, so forgive me for not caring all that much about what she has to say.

Maybe a little besides the point, but she also basically bragged about how uninformed she was (doesn't read/listen/watch any media), which obviously (and unfortunately) made her an ideal candidate to be a juror. It doesn't make me feel great about our system when people like this who are intentionally ignorant are the most likely to sit on a jury. I wouldn't let this woman bag my groceries based on the things she has said, and if I were ever falsely accused of a crime it would be people like this that I would have to depend on to save my life. Gives me chills.
 

magogian

New member
Messages
1,467
Reaction score
155
Dershowitz is not a fan of Angela Corey:

"MIKE HUCKABEE: You have said that you thought the prosecutor ought to be disbarred, that's a pretty serious type of violation to get a person disbarred. It is that serious to you?

ALAN DERSHOWITZ: Right, it is. She submitted an affidavit that was, if not perjurious, completely misleading. She violated all kinds of rules of the profession, and her conduct bordered on criminal conduct. She, by the way, has a horrible reputation in Florida. She's known for overcharging, she's known for being highly political. And in this case, of course she overcharged. Halfway through the trial she realized she wasn't going to get a second degree murder verdict, so she asked for a compromised verdict, for manslaughter. And then, she went even further and said that she was going to charge him with child abuse and felony murder. That was such a stretch that it goes beyond anything professionally responsible. She was among the most irresponsible prosecutors I've seen in 50 years of litigating cases, and believe me, I've seen good prosecutors, bad prosecutors, but rarely have I seen one as bad as this prosecutor, [Angela] Cory."

Alan Dershowitz: Zimmerman Special Prosecutor Angela Corey Should Be Disbarred | RealClearPolitics

No doubt he often has an interesting perspective on criminal law issues.
 

connor_in

Oh Yeeaah!!!
Messages
11,433
Reaction score
1,006
My theory is that he pulled the gun out at the moment he decided he was going to follow Trayvon into the darkness behind the condos. With a gun in his hand, he confronted Martin and Martin logically viewed that as a threat and slugged Zimmerman in the face and a fight began. According to eyewitness testimony, Martin was on top AND Zimmerman was on top. I believe that is not conflicting testimony and, because there is a long trail of items belonging to both Zimmerman and Martin, it suggests a struggle was more than the stationary scuffle that Zimmerman said occurred with Zimmerman's head on the sidewalk and his body in the grass.

This paragraph explains why I believe the gun had to already be out (or at least it didn't come out when Zimmerman claims) In my view, there is absolutely no way he could have pulled the weapon out with Travon's knees in his armpits (as he described to his best friend the night of the incident), the gun snugly tucked into a holster inside the right, back hip and covered by a shirt and a jacket. If his story is to be believed, he reached around Travon's legs (instead of blocking some of the 25 blows that were being rained down upon him or cushioning the back of his head with a hand to keep Martin from continuing to bash his head onto the cement), under his body and maneuver his hand under two layers of clothing, over his belt and grab the gun, pull it from the holster and pull it back around the body of a man (who presumably did not try to stop him from doing this, even though he was supposedly in a dominent postition to prevent him from using the gun).

If Zimmerman had his gun out when the confrontation started, he can hardly claim self defense. I know it was more than a couple of sentences, but that is the scenario that I think makes the most sense, given what I know about the case.

Ok...we get what you believe is the only logical way the situation occurred ... however, due to either the evidence available or the incompetence of the prosecution or the disturbing idiocy of the jury, GZ was acquitted.

Now what? He got a fair trial, now we hang him? Yes, there will be a civil case brought but its not like he has much and will be basically a pariah until he changes his name and adjusts his weight again to lose himself in the crowd.

Basically what do you want to happen from here?

(PS. GZ is not the first guy to get off even if you believe him guilty of murder two...do you share your outrage at the other "traveties of justice" that occur all the time?)
 

magogian

New member
Messages
1,467
Reaction score
155
Either way. What is this? 1937?

"How to Explain George Zimmerman's Verdict to Future Children of Color" Gabrielle Dunkley: How to Explain George Zimmerman's Verdict to Future Children of Color

The Wire's creator: "He added that "If I were a person of color in Florida, I would pick up a brick and start walking toward that courthouse" where George Zimmerman was found not guilty Saturday in Martin's shooting." Wire's' David Simon: 'If you stand your ground with your fists and you're black, you're dead' - chicagotribune.com

"Parents of children of color are struggling to process their own fears and cultivate meaningful conversations with their children about personal safety . . . " ‘Everything will be ok. I love you.’ Parenting after Trayvon — MSNBC

From one quick Google search. I guess you are the futuristic spaceman.
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,119
I've read through all the legal opinions on here and endured criticism for not knowing anything about the law. Can someone please tell me about, if the jury thinks the defendent's heart was in the right place, he can get away with shooting a kid in the street. This after acknowledging that he exercised poor judgment and never should have got out of his car. Oh, and obviously it was Zimmerman screaming on the tape because he is the one who has injuries and a single witness said Zimmerman was on top during the fight (even though others said the opposite). If this was the nature of their jury deliberations, it was a complete waste of 15 hours. I really wish I hadn't heard that interview.
 

magogian

New member
Messages
1,467
Reaction score
155
According to eyewitness testimony, Martin was on top AND Zimmerman was on top.

Very deceptive if not flatly incorrect. The only eyewitness testimony of the incident prior to the shooting was that Martin was on top. There was an eyewitness to the post-shooting portion that said Zimmerman was top, but Zimmerman had admitted he was on top after shooting Martin.
 
Last edited:

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,119
Ok...we get what you believe is the only logical way the situation occurred ... however, due to either the evidence available or the incompetence of the prosecution or the disturbing idiocy of the jury, GZ was acquitted.

Now what? He got a fair trial, now we hang him? Yes, there will be a civil case brought but its not like he has much and will be basically a pariah until he changes his name and adjusts his weight again to lose himself in the crowd.

Basically what do you want to happen from here?

(PS. GZ is not the first guy to get off even if you believe him guilty of murder two...do you share your outrage at the other "traveties of justice" that occur all the time?)

Look pal, I was asked to provide my theory of what happened and I provided it. Did I say we should "hang him?" Didn't think so.
 

Rhode Irish

Semi-retired
Messages
7,057
Reaction score
900
"How to Explain George Zimmerman's Verdict to Future Children of Color" Gabrielle Dunkley: How to Explain George Zimmerman's Verdict to Future Children of Color

The Wire's creator: "He added that "If I were a person of color in Florida, I would pick up a brick and start walking toward that courthouse" where George Zimmerman was found not guilty Saturday in Martin's shooting." Wire's' David Simon: 'If you stand your ground with your fists and you're black, you're dead' - chicagotribune.com

"Parents of children of color are struggling to process their own fears and cultivate meaningful conversations with their children about personal safety . . . " ‘Everything will be ok. I love you.’ Parenting after Trayvon — MSNBC

From one quick Google search. I guess you are the futuristic spaceman.

Does not seem like the way people usually speak. But OK, I guess if some people say it then it must be OK.
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,119
Very deceptive if not flatly incorrect. The only eyewitness testimony prior to the shooting was that Martin was on top. There was an eyewitness to the post-shooting portion that said Zimmerman was top, but Zimmerman had admitted he was on top after shooting Martin.

There were 3 or 4 eyewitnesses who said Zimmerman was on top.
 

NDWorld247

New member
Messages
2,474
Reaction score
302
I agree and have said as much in previous posts.

And that's probably the great travesty I take away from this trial. Personal beliefs aside, Trayvon Martin received p*** poor representation from the state of Florida. Was the trial "fair"? Lawfully, yes, but in reality the defense was playing chess while the state was playing checkers. If the attorneys switched sides, Zimmerman would probably be sitting in jail on, at a minimum, a manslaughter conviction right now.
 

magogian

New member
Messages
1,467
Reaction score
155
First, that's one, not three or four.

Second, that article does not appear to be accurate. Here are other sources: "Selma Mora testified that after she heard what she now believes was a gunshot, she rushed outside and saw the man who survived the fight on his knees straddling Trayvon. That man then stood up and began pacing, she said." George Zimmerman trial: Key witness says Zimmerman was aggressor - Orlando Sentinel

"Another former neighbor, Selma Mora, testified that she heard a crying sound outside her home. She then heard a "dry" sound "which I have described as the thump of a child falling," Mora said in Spanish, through an interpreter.

When she went outside, she said, she two people on the ground. One was on top, she said, in the position of a "rider."
George Zimmerman trial: Neighbor of accused Trayvon Martin killer says she heard "yelps" and cries for help - Crimesider - CBS News

Try again.

Edit: If you watch her testimony, she is describing what she saw after the gunshot. Sorry GoIrish, you got screwed by GMA. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJmHzKK9e14
 
Last edited:

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,119
And that's probably the great travesty I take away from this trial. Personal beliefs aside, Trayvon Martin received p*** poor representation from the state of Florida. Was the trial "fair"? Lawfully, yes, but in reality the defense was playing chess while the state was playing checkers. If the attorneys switched sides, Zimmerman would probably be sitting in jail on, at a minimum, a manslaughter conviction right now.

I agree with all of this. I've never been in a courtroom in my life, but I think I could have made a better closing argument than the prosecution did.
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,119
Very deceptive if not flatly incorrect. The only eyewitness testimony of the incident prior to the shooting was that Martin was on top. There was an eyewitness to the post-shooting portion that said Zimmerman was top, but Zimmerman had admitted he was on top after shooting Martin.

That's one, not three or four.

It also shows that the only testimony of the incident prior to the shooting was not the one who put Martin on top. This means, that I have disproved your statement I just don't feel like going and finding the other three, so you can keep your vbucks. Next time be careful about telling people they are wrong when you don't know the facts. I watched nearly every minute of this trial and I know what I heard.
 

magogian

New member
Messages
1,467
Reaction score
155
It also shows that the only testimony of the incident prior to the shooting was not the one who put Martin on top. This means, that I have disproved your statement I just don't feel like going and finding the other three, so you can keep your vbucks. Next time be careful about telling people they are wrong when you don't know the facts. I watched nearly every minute of this trial and I know what I heard.

Dude. Try reading the posts and sources. The GMA article is completely wrong. And you are completely wrong.

Second, when I made the challenge, I quoted your assertion that there were 3 or 4 witnesses that testify that Zimmerman was on top before the gun shot, and I said you couldn't prove it.

If actually care at all about this trial (and you obviously do very much), you owe it to yourself to get your facts straight. And not rely on what you think you heard.

Edit: I'll cut you some slack. Mora's testimony is a bit confusing. But, it seems clear that she didn't actually see Zimmerman and Martin until after the gunshot. Although, she did hear the fighting before the gunshot.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top