Government Spying on Millions (Verizon)

chicago51

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The 2008 financial crisis which occurred largely because of Reagan's own deregulation of everything. Reagan may be the worst President ever yet is sanctified in modern America.

As to the spying Holder is a joke and should have lost his job a long time ago. Obama's foreign policy and intelligence gather policies are atrocious. Obama is substantively not different from W in these areas, he merely talks a better game.

Yes. He says things I agree with like getting rid of the "authorization of force" which is essentially a blank check to kill people anywhere. However the policies that have actually happened are not that different at all from George W Bush.
 

chicago51

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What if I ask him for the Slacky Discount???

ACamp to Holder:

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Wasn't implying you were worked up. But many of our posters here are clearly strong partisans, which frustrates me (particularly becomes some of them are quite intelligent). Why bother emotionally investing oneself (let alone publicly defending) one side in a contrived contest meant to distract the masses from the fact that 1% of the population is shamelessly f*cking over the rest of us?

This NSA scandal comes on the heels of the Supreme Court's decision that, if arrested for any reason whatsoever, the authorities can swab your DNA and store it in a national database:



Orwellian nightmare, anyone?

Come%20at%20me%20bro!.jpg
 
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Cackalacky

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Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) said Thursday that he was "glad" the National Security Agency is collecting the phone records of Verizon Communications customers, The Washington Times reported.

Speaking on Fox News, Graham explained that he was a Verizon customer and was happy to have his service provider handing over phone records to the government in an effort to track suspected terrorists.

"I'm a Verizon customer," Graham said. "I don't mind Verizon turning over records to the government if the government is going to make sure that they try to match up a known terrorist phone with somebody in the United States."

Graham clarified that under the law, "you just can't track people's phone calls," and said there must be a reasonable belief that the people being surveilled are involved in terrorism.

"I don’t think you're talking to the terrorists. I know you're not. I know I'm not, so we don't have anything to worry about," he said. "I am glad that NSA is trying to find out what terrorists are up to overseas and inside the country."

According to exclusive reports from The Guardian on Wednesday, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court issued a secret court order in April requiring Verizon to release communication records on millions of Americans.

The Obama administration also defended the order on Thursday, referring to it as "a critical tool in protecting the nation from terrorist threats."

Representin the 864, 803, and 843!
 
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Cackalacky

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Don't fret precious I'm here,
step away from the window
and go back to sleep

Lay your head down child
I won't let the boogeyman come
Countin' bodies like sheep
To the rhythm of the war drums
Pay no mind to the rabble
Pay no mind to the rabble
Head down, go to sleep
To the rhythm of the war drums

Pay no mind what other voices say
They don't care about you, like I do, (like I do)
Safe from pain, and truth, and choice, and other poison devils,
See, they don't give a **** about you, like I do.

Just stay with me,
safe and ignorant, go,
back to sleep, go
back to sleep

Lay your head down child
I won't let the boogeyman come
Countin' bodies like sheep
To the rhythm of the war drums
Pay no mind to the rabble
Pay no mind to the rabble
Head down, go to sleep
To the rhythm of the war drums

I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices son
They're one and the same
I must isolate you
Isolate and save you from yourself

Swayin' to the rhythm of the new world order and
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
The boogeymen are coming
The boogeymen are coming
Keep your head down, go to sleep
To the rhythm of the war drums

Stay with me
Safe and ignorant
Just stay with me
I'll hold you and protect you from the other ones,
The evil ones, don't love you son,
Go back to sleep.
 

GO IRISH!!!

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My cell phone is listening to me, my XBox will be watching me, they have drones the size of hummingbirds in the skies, and cameras that can read a newspaper from outer space. There are vans driving around with enormous x-ray systems scanning our cars and homes, the supermarket tracks my spending habits, and my bank reports whenever I make a withdrawal they deem is "large". My Amazon Wishlist is set to "public" as its default and my Social Security numer is required on so many forms, I can't keep track. Even my gym did away with membership cards and wants me to scan my thumbprint whenever I want to work out.

Does anyone know how to build one of those buildings like Gene Hackman had in "Enemy of the State"?
 

NDFan4Life

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Representin the 864, 803, and 843!

Something that everyone is overlooking in the article you posted:

According to exclusive reports from The Guardian on Wednesday, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court issued a secret court order in April requiring Verizon to release communication records on millions of Americans.

NSA's Verizon Spying Order Specifically Targeted Americans, Not Foreigners

The National Security Agency has long justified its spying powers by arguing that its charter allows surveillance on those outside of the United States, while avoiding intrusions into the private communications of American citizens. But the latest revelation of the extent of the NSA’s surveillance shows that it has focused specifically on Americans, to the degree that its data collection has in at least one major spying incident explicitly excluded those outside the United States.

In a top secret order obtained by the Guardian newspaper and published Wednesday evening, the FBI on the NSA’s behalf demanded that Verizon turn over all metadata for phone records originating in the United States for the three months beginning in late April and ending on the 19th of July. That metadata includes all so-called “non-content” data for millions of American customers’ phone calls, such as the subscriber data, recipients, locations, times and durations of every call made during that period.

Aside from the sheer scope of that surveillance order, reminiscent of the warrantless wiretapping scandal under the Bush administration, the other shocking aspect of the order its target: The order specifically states that only data regarding calls originating in America are to be handed over, not those between foreigners.

“It is hereby ordered that [Verizon Business Network Services'] Custodian of Records shall produce to the National Security Agency…all call detail records or ‘telephony metadata’ created by Verizon for communications (i) between the United States and abroad; or (ii) wholly within the United States, including local telephone calls,” the Guardian’s copy of the order reads. “This Order does not require Verizon to include telephony metadata for communications wholly originating and terminating in foreign countries.”

Though the classified, top secret order comes from the FBI, it clearly states that the data is to be given to the NSA. That means the leaked document may serve as one of the first concrete pieces of evidence that the NSA’s spying goes beyond foreigners to include Americans, despite its charter specifically disallowing surveillance of those within the United States.

“In many ways it’s even more troubling than [Bush era] warrantless wiretapping, in part because the program is purely domestic,” says Alex Abdo, a staff attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union’s National Security Project.”But this is also an indiscriminate dragnet. Say what you will about warrantless wiretapping, at least it was targeted at agents of Al Qaeda. This includes every customer of Verizon Business Services.”

The leaked document, in fact, is labelled as an order from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, a body whose powers were created under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 and then broadened after the September 11th, 2001 attacks, with the purpose of intercepting communications between foreign agents and those between enemies abroad and their agents within the U.S. Similarly, the NSA’s charter states that it focuses on interception and analysis of foreign communications, not those within the United States.

But the Verizon order seems to show that the NSA, using FISA, has specifically gathered communications data that both begins and ends with Americans. That domestic surveillance may be allowed under FISA’s low standard for the “relevance” of the data demanded from Internet companies and telephone carriers in the investigations of foreigners, says Julian Sanchez, a research fellow with the CATO Institute focused on privacy and civil liberties. ”The overall purpose of this program is to identify foreign terrorists,” says Julian Sanchez. “But in fact it extends well beyond whether the individual you’re investigating is foreign. If you think an American citizens’s email has information about what a foreign power or individual is doing, that’s ‘relevant.’ The purpose of the investigation is not a constraint on the target or the people from whom the information is sought.”

“If they data mine huge blocks of call records, they’re getting lots of innocent Americans’ data,” adds Sanchez, “But the argument, I imagine, is ‘we’re doing data mining to look for suspicious patterns to help us identify foreign terrorists.’”

My colleague Kashmir Hill has contacted the NSA and Verizon for comment, and I’ll update this post if we hear back from either of the two. Update: Verizon has declined to comment.

In fact, the Verizon order may be just a glimpse of a much larger surveillance program. It’s unclear whether other carriers, not to mention Internet giants like Google, Microsoft and Facebook, have been caught up in similar domestic surveillance, or how long that surveillance has been taking place. But as the Guardian notes, Senators Ron Wyden and Mark Udall have issued cryptic warnings for the last two years that the Obama administration has engaged in widespread surveillance of Americans.

Other phone carriers including AT&T, T-Mobile and Sprint all responded to a congressional inquiry on government surveillance last year, stating that they had turned over hundreds of thousands of users’ records to law enforcement agencies, though that inquiry didn’t focus on intelligence agency requests.

In a congressional hearing in March of last year, the NSA’s Director Keith Alexander responded to questions from Georgia Congressman Hank Johnson, who brought up allegations of the NSA’s domestic spying made in a Wired magazine article earlier that month, denying fourteen times that the NSA intercepted Americans’ communications.

“What judicial consent is required for NSA to intercept communications and information involving American citizens?” Johnson asked at the time.

“Within the United States, that would be the FBI lead,” responded Alexander. “If it were a foreign actor in the United States, the FBI would still have to lead. It could work that with NSA or other intelligence agencies as authorized. But to conduct that kind of collection in the United States it would have to go through a court order, and the court would have to authorize it. We’re not authorized to do it, nor do we do it.”

In light of this latest leak and the surveillance it’s exposed, the NSA may have some more explaining to do.

NSA's Verizon Spying Order Specifically Targeted Americans, Not Foreigners - Forbes
 

WaveDomer

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A White House Special Assistant just read a press release calling FISA the Federal Intelligence Surveillance Act. Sorry buddy, the "F" actually stands for "Foreign" ...There lies your problem you criminal. (I'm posting this not for IE readers. The White House won't read the email I sent them but the NSA will pass this along, surely.)
 

BobD

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as long as they're only listening in on terrorist and the tea party, who cares?

In all seriousness, I don't do illegal things, so I personally don't care if someone checked up on me to make sure I wasn't a terrorist or criminal. They'd be laughing their a$$es off when my wife puts me on speaker phone to talk to the dogs.

I'm also surprised that people don't know the US government can monitor any electronic communication in the world and they do......been doing it a loooong time.
 

WaveDomer

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as long as they're only listening in on terrorist and the tea party, who cares?

In all seriousness, I don't do illegal things, so I personally don't care if someone checked up on me to make sure I wasn't a terrorist or criminal. They'd be laughing their a$$es off when my wife puts me on speaker phone to talk to the dogs.

I'm also surprised that people don't know the US government can monitor any electronic communication in the world and they do......been doing it a loooong time.

No offense, but this is the worst argument IMHO. So, you don't mind if they search your home? take your DNA? Look through your sock drawer? Look through your Internet search? Why would you if you have nothing to hide? I'd rather not live like that. And I especially don't get this attitude after what has gone down with the IRS. The government is really not your friend and is, in itself, a big business that cares mostly about its own survival.
 

tadman95

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I caught the tail end of an interview of a former whistle blower but didn't catch his name. He thought this wasn't that big of a deal and here's how he rationalized it.

If the NSA is looking for a needle in a haystack, they have to have access to the haystack. They can glean information by tracking calls, their destination and origin, frequency, developing patterns can be telling.

Now listening to the conversations is a different matter, and we all probably agree that's not cool. They probably do that too.

I really don't have a problem with it. This post is probably being read in a dark government room at the same time as any of you.

And Whiskey, I agree with everything you said. We're both probably on a new list now. Cheers!
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Seriously. Why bother getting worked up over partisan political theater? It's little more than a gladiatorial contest meant to distract you from the real business of power politics. Virtually no one in Washington is representing your interests. They largely come from and work for the 1%.

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Hopefully this will get some partisans to open their eyes. But I'm not holding my breath.

Why? Because people need to get worked up enough to do something about it. This dunderheads, (ALL PARTIES) are ruining America. And if we don't do something about it will be too damn late.

It is like my dad always said, all politics is like a magician, watch this hand while the other hand is doing the work. The proof of what I said is in the terms you use, "political theater." Everything in a theater is entertainment, even if it is a commencement!

Someone referred to my signature. The most bovine of human tendencies is to heckle the opposing political belief. Cheer the heckler; praise the political agenda. None of these guys believe anything they say, they just want you to bite. And when you do they can fleece you, rape you and yours, and rob you blind. And it is all of them. Truly, the saddest thing is someone who stands on his political principles. That is like building a mansion on the desert sands before the windstorm . . .
 
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MJ12666

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The biggest problem with a democracy is not money or corporations, it is quite simply an uneducated voting public. There is no better example of this then the vast majority of posts under this particular topic.

First, as was posted (and ignored) by Anchorman, any information gathered under this program was done after the necessary warrants have been signed by a judge or panel of judges.

Second, reading these posts you would think that most of you believe that Verizon is handing over audio records of telephone conversations that are being listened to by a group of "CIA spooks". Being employed by a major telecommunication company I can assure you that this is not what Verizon is providing the government. My guess is that Verizon is providing (after receipt of the signed warrant) a data base of telephone numbers by points of origination and termination. This data is then probably run through a computer program that "kicks out" calls based on the criteria established by the program. At that point if it is determined further investigation is necessary, an additional warrant presented to a judge (or panel) and additional investigative work is completed.

Now personally I don't have any problem with this. But that is me. If you think this is too intrusive that's fine, but please understand what is happening before jumping to erroneous conclusions.
 

NDdomer2

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oh well if they wanna hear my gf ramble about her job and how her day went and read all of you azzholes on here then so be it
 

Rizzophil

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The 2008 financial crisis which occurred largely because of Reagan's own deregulation of everything. Reagan may be the worst President ever yet is sanctified in modern America.

As to the spying Holder is a joke and should have lost his job a long time ago. Obama's foreign policy and intelligence gather policies are atrocious. Obama is substantively not different from W in these areas, he merely talks a better game.

This is completely false
 

Whiskeyjack

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Now personally I don't have any problem with this. But that is me. If you think this is too intrusive that's fine, but please understand what is happening before jumping to erroneous conclusions.

If you focus on just this event and take the government's professed motives at face value, then it's not too controversial. But that's an overly simplistic way to approach this issue, as it ignores the trends and the potential for abuse. Here's an article from Julian Sanchez on why this is problematic:

Privacy advocates and surveillance experts have suspected for years that the government was using an expansive interpretation of the Patriot Act’s §215 “business record” authority to collect bulk communications records indiscriminately. We now have confirmation in the form of a secret order from the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to Verizon — and legislators are saying that such orders have been routinely served on phone carriers for at least seven years. (It seems likely that similar requests are being served on Internet providers — increasingly the same companies that provide us with wireless phone services).

Some stress that what is being collected is “just metadata”—a phrase I’m confident you’ll never see a computer scientist or data analyst use. Metadata—the transactional records of information about phone and Internet communications, as opposed to their content—can be incredibly revealing, as the recent story about the acquisition of Associated Press phone logs underscores. Those records, as AP head Gary Pruitt complained, provide a comprehensive map of reporters’ activities, telling those who know how to look what stories journalists are working on and who their confidential sources are. Metadata can reveal what Websites you read, who you communicate with, which political or religious groups you’re affiliated with, even your physical location.

In a way, the ground was prepared for this indiscriminate collection of Americans’ data way back in the 1970s, when the Supreme Court held, implausibly, that we surrender our expectation of privacy—and with it, the protection of the Fourth Amendment—just by using modern technology that leaves traces of our activity on someone else’s computers. But Americans were also sold a false bill of goods when Congress passed and reauthorized the Patriot Act powers used here—which we were repeatedly assured were only intended to be used to track “bad guys.” What we weren’t told was that, if the government thinks datamining ALL our records might help identify “bad guys,” then that information too is “relevant” to an investigation.

This collection is probably well enough intentioned. The problem is that these records are likely to be retained in databases indefinitely. Which means we don’t just need to worry about whether the government’s motives are pure when they collect the information. Even if they are, someone with access to that data, maybe in five or ten years, may be unable to resist the temptation to use that information for other purposes. That could mean investigating ordinary crimes: If you can data mine for suspicious terrorist activity patterns—which as Jim Harper and Jeff Jonas have pointed out is likely to be extremely difficult—you can plug in “suspicious patterns” that may identify drug dealers and tax cheats as well. Still more disturbing is the possibility that, the intelligence community has repeatedly done historically, those records could be exploited for illegitimate political purposes, or even simple greed. (Imagine probing communications for signs of an impending corporate merger, product launch, or lawsuit.)

We are, predictably, being told that this program is essential to protecting us from terrorist attacks. But the track record of such claims is unimpressive: They were made about fusion centers, and the original NSA warrantless wiretap program, and in each case collapsed under scrutiny. No doubt some of these phone records have proven useful in some investigation, but it doesn’t follow that the indiscriminate collection of such records is necessary for investigations, any more than general warrants to search homes are necessary just because sometimes searches of homes are useful to police.

In the short term, we should hope for an Inspector General audit of this program, both to look for abuses—as a similar audit of National Security Letters uncovered “widespread and serious” misuse of authority—and to skeptically interrogate the claim that such sweeping collection is somehow indispensable to national security. In the longer term, we need to follow the suggestion of Justice Sotomayor in United States v. Jones and think hard about the “third party doctrine,” which leaves all this increasingly voluminous and revealing metadata stripped of constitutional protection.
 
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HereComeTheIrish

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Maybe it's that everybody is so busy pointing fingers at each other, looking to place blame......Maybe we're so busy passing the buck, looking to preserve our own arse(I'm looking at you Congress), that we're in the situation we are..........and there's no "maybe" about" this... I'm fed up with the federal gov't
 

BobD

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We live in the greatest country in the world, second best isn't even close. Our government is imperfect by design. We do have a leadership problem because the people currently in Washington know and take advantage of one thing.....the American public complains about almost everything, but they tend to avoid actually doing anything about it.
 

Whiskeyjack

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We live in the greatest country in the world, second best isn't even close. Our government is imperfect by design. We do have a leadership problem because the people currently in Washington know and take advantage of one thing.....the American public complains about almost everything, but they tend to avoid actually doing anything about it.

Roman citizens surely once said the same thing.
 

BobD

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Roman citizens surely once said the same thing.

The only thing throughout history that all governments have in common......they all eventually fall. We've got a ways to go IMO.
 

NDWorld247

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We live in the greatest country in the world, second best isn't even close. Our government is imperfect by design. We do have a leadership problem because the people currently in Washington know and take advantage of one thing.....the American public complains about almost everything, but they tend to avoid actually doing anything about it.

We kicked *** in the 20th century. The 21st isn't going so well...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MRFFL9TR0mY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

phgreek

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No offense, but this is the worst argument IMHO. So, you don't mind if they search your home? take your DNA? Look through your sock drawer? Look through your Internet search? Why would you if you have nothing to hide? I'd rather not live like that. And I especially don't get this attitude after what has gone down with the IRS. The government is really not your friend and is, in itself, a big business that cares mostly about its own survival.

I agree. Makes my head hurt...

Look...rarely are powers yielded to the government immediately abused...nor can those seeking the power contemplate how those in the future would abuse it...there is always a good reason to cede power/privacy/liberty today.... One thing is clear...power is always abused by someone within the government eventually. Considered in their sum, the powers the government enjoys today coupled with the apparent rampant abuse...come on....this is dumb.

The premise "I've done nothing illegal" no longer holds water in light of what the IRS has been up to...they were able to hurt folks that never did anything illegal either. The most apolitical, ethical, by-the-book part of government (supposedly) broke federal acquisition regulations, targeted based on political view, and under that targeting operation, disseminated privacy act data to political competitors...I mean seriously are there three worse things the IRS could have done ...NO!

So, what we see is broad powers allow for such heinous transgressions as to yield a government entity operating 180 degrees out of their charter.

...so some of you think its just ok to have your entire digital life on file, and see no cause for concern...because government can't harm me with that information...Yea...whatever.

One irony in all of this that I see ...I have helped folks retiring from the military establish companies...so tell me how we have an NSA staffed and facilitized to do all of this, and the VA can't scan in a guy's medical history without sending it to them 3 times...and why it'd need to be "scanned" in the first place...Shameful.
 

BGIF

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We kicked *** in the 20th century. The 21st isn't going so well...

That because this is our apology century.

In 1492 if we had told Columbus to P.O. and go home think how much better the world would be today.
 
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