RallySonsOfND
All-Snub Team Snubbed
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Spell his name right then.
'12 MD ATH Ronald Darby (Florida State Signee)
- Thread starter TerryTate
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Spell his name right then.
HawaiianIrish
Imua Irish
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damn i phone.... KeiVarae..:embar:
woolybug25
#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
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Better yet... he better hope that his head coach doesn't bail for the Auburn gig.
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No. By that logic, a football player could get an "excellent education" by reading wikipedia articles in his free time. The "school is what you make of it" argument is a truism. Individual effort is obviously important, but that doesn't diminish the importance of how the market values an average undergraduate degree from X institution.
If FSU was in the business of providing its students with an excellent education, it would rank higher than 523rd nationally in 30y ROI. It is, in fact, an objectively bad investment; most high school seniors would be better off economically getting a job right out of high school than going to FSU.
What's the hang-up here? You, mriguy and a few others get really uptight whenever I reference this ranking. Did you go to a school with a low 30y ROI, so you feel like it's not an accurate reflection of educational quality? It's an average, and there are outliers everywhere. That doesn't mean the metric is useless.
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In Lou I Trust
Offseason gon' be long
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FrankMA
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It means he isn't very bright!
MrIrishCanadian1
Douche Lord
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Spell it right! It's iPhone!
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That's all it takes to win ACC Defensive RoY? Russell has 50 tackles (34 solo), 2 INTs, 2 PBUs, 1 QB hurry, 0.5 sacks, and 2 TFL.
FLDomer
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Im hearing Tenn
In Lou I Trust
Offseason gon' be long
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My thought exactly.
For the purposes of this argument, I'll ignore that an education is not measured solely by money gleaned--a notion particularly championed at Notre Dame. I'll also ignore the fact that ROI doesn't apply well to elite FBS athletes. Your numbers aren't taking into account probability of making it to the NFL from a given program, the positions they tend to send to the NFL, the pay of particular players/positions, the fact that the "investment" isn't monetary for them, the value of a given football experience at a given school, etc.
Furthermore, your ROI is slanted by ND offering an undergrad business school as opposed to many schools who do not. This is compounded by it not taking post-bachelors degrees, meaning people who get into business via MBAs instead of undergrad aren't taken into account.
When it comes to an education, a kid like Darby, or Anzalone when he flirted with UF, is miles ahead by wanting an education. The difference between ND and FSU is less the education to be had, but the requirement that one get that education. For FSU, if the athlete wants an education it is theirs to be had--but they won't force it. Myron Prolle was a f*cking Rhodes Scholar. McElroy at Bama was a finalist. Christian Ponder finished a Finance Degree with the same GPA as Abromaitis, in 1 less semester. He got an MBA, and then worked on another grad degree.
Pretending the products of FSU educationally are a bunch of illiterate degenerates is pathetic, both in terms of reality and in terms of perpetuating the view of the ND fanbase as a bunch of elitist pricks. Darby can find a phenomenal education that will serve him well at either location, as well as at dozens of other schools. If he wants it, he will find it. The same goes for kids who want an education, whether they go to Duke or Stanford, BC or ND, FSU or Little Sisters of the Poor. ND's biggest selling point, IMO, is not so much towards these kids who know they want to get an education, but to the parents of those who may or may not.
Anway.
Outside of the ROI thing, can people stop crapping on decommits? Its sad. The kid is going to be a stud and so far has been a stud. Russell has done much better than we expected, no doubt. But I would wager Kelly accepts Darby as a transfer tomorrow if he called. 5* Corners don't come around every day, and we took Prestwood.
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NDBoiler
The Rep Machine
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If this is the case, then BK and his staff don't seem as astute as you regarding this "fact", because it is well documented that they use this as a major recruiting pitch.
I'm not BK and I'm not trying to recruit athletes to come play for me. Obviously you use the statistics that benefit you. Its a useful statistic, I'm just saying its not the end-all-be-all of educational prowess and how to decide where to go.
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I've never stated that an education is nothing more than an investment in future earning potential, but my goal is to create an objective method by which to compare academic quality. I'll address this further in a bit.
As you mentioned, the expected return from an NFL career fluctuates wildly depending on position, whether one gets drafted, etc. I could add a simplistic NFL element by estimating % chance to get drafted from ND multiplied by the average NFL salary and the average career duration, but it still wouldn't be very accurate. Undergraduate degrees are best marketed to blue-chip recruits as insurance policies, and the Football ROI ranking does a good job of showing who's offering the best coverage.
See above. The Football ROI ranking is intended for blue-chip football recruits. Thus, undergraduate degrees are insurance policies to them, to protect themselves in the (overwhelmingly likely) case that they don't get rich in the NFL. It does a good job of showing which schools are offering the best insurance policies. 40% of ND's current roster are enrolled in the ND's #1 ranked Mendoza College of Business, and they're probably going to make a lot more money post-graduation than their teammates who are enrolled in Arts and Letters. ND doesn't have some sort of unfair advantage by offering an elite business education.
And again, we're shooting for an objective metric here, so those who choose to get a post-graduate degree have to be excluded.
Here's the truism bullsh!t. The fact that those institutions produced some successful scholars does not in any way disprove the notion that there are significant disparities in educational quality between schools. It's objective market data! People with ND degrees make on average 4x what kids with FSU degrees do. All of that differential probably can't be attributed to the superiority of the institution, but you're trying to use a few statistical anomalies to discredit the whole thing.
I never argued that FSU students are "illiterate degenerates". But the objective market data indicates that an undergraduate degree from FSU is a poor investment. And when I point out that, if Darby had access to this data, choosing FSU over ND indicates he didn't weigh academics much in his final decision, it doesn't make me an elitist prick. He either wasn't concerned about maximizing degree value (for whatever reason), or he was misinformed.
You, on the other hand, are guilty of willful blindness here. It smacks of the same bullsh!t political narrative you often hear from the right: "Anyone, no matter how poor, can make it in this country if they're willing to work hard enough!" Technically true, yes. But possible != probable. An inner-city kid attending a bad school has a much poorer chance of succeeding than a rich suburbanite. By the same token, Darby has a much poorer chance of receiving an excellent education at a football factory that offers terrible degree value than he would have at ND.
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IrishJayhawk
Rock Chalk
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This is my hang up. I didn't go to a DI school for undergrad, so it's not that. (I do have lots of ties to some of those other schools, but I won't get into that). I don't have a problem with anyone positively talking about Notre Dame. It is an outstanding university...no argument. ND football players get a good education and have lots of avenues available after football.
However, this board frequently makes judgements on kids and their intentions with very little information about them outside of their college choice. "Well, he didn't pick Notre Dame, so I guess he doesn't want to study." No one but the kid can know that. I find it distasteful to put those judgements on 18 year olds.
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this is what I was thinking. I watched a decent amount of fsu games, specifically trying to see what kind of impact Darby was having and he was never on the field. Congrats to him but wow.
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Nothing against Darby, but I would have thought this would have gone to Deon Bush despite his team's defensive woes.
Bush had 28 solo tackles, 6 assisted tackles, 3 passes broken up, and 3 forced fumbles.
The 7 pass break ups must have been really nice.
Bush had 28 solo tackles, 6 assisted tackles, 3 passes broken up, and 3 forced fumbles.
The 7 pass break ups must have been really nice.
If you took 9,000 "average" FSU students and replaced the student body at ND with them, would the ROI for Notre Dame stay the same?
Is it the actual education? Or the type of men and women that admissions/the University enrolls? Or a bit of both?
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Absolutely. As I mentioned in my post above, ND benefits from selection bias in these types of rankings. But it's no coincidence that the schools at the top of the ranking are also the most selective. It's a "chicken and egg" dilemma, and I have no idea how to go about separating them.
But these motivated and intelligent students that attend the top ROI schools also pay a lot of money for that privilege. If the desire for a good education and a willingness to work hard were all that mattered, then such students wouldn't be fighting tooth and nail for the right to take on massive amounts of student loan debt to attend them. It's much more likely that such schools are offering a very real and valuable benefit (networks, superior education, etc.) that lower ranked schools aren't.
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tussin
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Honestly, I think these stats are quite misleading. The US News rankings are a more accurate representation of how effective a college is. Notre Dame is top 20, outstanding to say the least, but FSU is still top 100 (which indicates that plenty of students there have positive experiences). All that being said, everyone knows that Notre Dame is easily the best combination of academics and athletics.
Bottom line, college is what you make of it and those statistics are more a reflection of the lax football recruiting standards at FSU and not the institution itself. A bright young kid that goes to FSU can certainly get an outstanding education if he has the right mindset and pushes himself. Myron Rolle is a perfect example of that.
By the way, thought you were referencing the Football ROI metric that you throw around a bit.
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Have a look at USN&WR's methodology. It includes a lot of subjective crap such as "Alumni Giving Rate". And for their most heavily weighted metric, "Undergraduate Academic Reputation", they poll high school guidance counselors (among others). Does this strike you as a very scientific process? It's basically just a glorified reputation poll, which is only tangentially correlated to degree value. For instance, Harvey Mudd is ranked #1 for degree value, but it's only the #12 liberal arts college according to USN&WR. Why is that? Because a lot of people haven't heard of it. Hell, if a high school student made the mistake of looking only at their National University ranking, he might not even apply to it.
The GSR figures reflect the lax recruiting standards and the football factory culture at a school like FSU, but not the degree value stats. As I mentioned previously, FSU is ranked 523rd nationally for 30y ROI; that ranking is based on objective salary data, and it strongly indicates that paying to attend FSU is a poor investment.
And make no mistake, football players "pay" to attend their schools. They just pay with their sweat and time instead of taking out student loans.
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Emcee77
latress on the men-jay
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Well, surely some people aren't interested in maximizing the return on their investment. If that were everyone's concern, no one would become a social worker or prosecutor or teacher. The ROI figures aren't the be-all-end-all.
But I don't think Whiskey is saying they are; his point is that football recruits tend to view a college degree as insurance against failing to make the NFL, and viewed from from that perspective the ROI/GSR figures make a compelling argument. Isn't that point strong? It certainly did seem to me like Darby was picking a place to play football/run track first and a place to get an education second. Wasn't that Whiskey's original point about him? Whiskey's figures aren't the only way to look at the college decision but 99% of the time recruits will find them helpful, I'd think, and that's coming from someone with a pretty romantic view of education that is not super-compatible with Whiskey's perspective. (I recently argued fervently on this site for the value of liberal arts education.) It's just realistic. I don't know why everyone is so offended.
But I don't think Whiskey is saying they are; his point is that football recruits tend to view a college degree as insurance against failing to make the NFL, and viewed from from that perspective the ROI/GSR figures make a compelling argument. Isn't that point strong? It certainly did seem to me like Darby was picking a place to play football/run track first and a place to get an education second. Wasn't that Whiskey's original point about him? Whiskey's figures aren't the only way to look at the college decision but 99% of the time recruits will find them helpful, I'd think, and that's coming from someone with a pretty romantic view of education that is not super-compatible with Whiskey's perspective. (I recently argued fervently on this site for the value of liberal arts education.) It's just realistic. I don't know why everyone is so offended.
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Irish To The Core
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A few comments. I am happy with KeiVarae, we lucked out on that one. I can't ever recall a freshman switching positions to a pretty damned technical spot (corner) and picking it up so quickly then advancing during the season to the level that he has. Did you see his one on one coverage against Lee in that game? Even the interference penalty (the first one that really was interference) was a veteran sort of move. I can't imagine where Russell's ceiling might be...he has obviously worked hard to get where he is, but the guy is just a 'baller pure and simple. He knows the game.
Secondly, if a recruit gives a damn about getting an education, he doesn't head to FSU on a football scholarship. They are notorious for steering players away from academically beneficial courses and couselling players to take the easy road. Bowden's remedial University for the Illiterate program may have been glossed over, but the atmosphere at FSU remains the same. Where ND has awesome academic supports for athletes that enable our players to succeed in legitimate programs, FSU's support is geared towards steering players clear of legitimate programs. In Bowden's day they added the extra support of creating new classes with teachers hired to pass illiterate players giving them enough credits to stay eligible.
So...Darby's success is irrelevent to me and I am pretty sure he is not getting an education equivolent to the guys he ditched.
Finally I will make this bold prediction: KeiVarae is drafted higher than Darby.(probably a year later b/c Darby will likely forego the last valuable year of FSU education to go to the NFL)
Secondly, if a recruit gives a damn about getting an education, he doesn't head to FSU on a football scholarship. They are notorious for steering players away from academically beneficial courses and couselling players to take the easy road. Bowden's remedial University for the Illiterate program may have been glossed over, but the atmosphere at FSU remains the same. Where ND has awesome academic supports for athletes that enable our players to succeed in legitimate programs, FSU's support is geared towards steering players clear of legitimate programs. In Bowden's day they added the extra support of creating new classes with teachers hired to pass illiterate players giving them enough credits to stay eligible.
So...Darby's success is irrelevent to me and I am pretty sure he is not getting an education equivolent to the guys he ditched.
Finally I will make this bold prediction: KeiVarae is drafted higher than Darby.(probably a year later b/c Darby will likely forego the last valuable year of FSU education to go to the NFL)
12-0. Who cares?
Junkhead
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This. He had like 18 tackles this season and no INTs was it?