'13 CA CB Chris Hawkins (USC Verbal)

[greyhammer90]

Remind me why we're letting this kid visit again?

For the dream dude... for the dream.

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[Whiskeyjack]

This strikes me as a incredibly f*cked up. Hawkins is a consensus 4 CB who has professed, along with his parents, that he's 100% Trogan. Yet there's legitimate concern that USC won't honor his scholarship offer, and so he's taking visits in case his dream school decides to f*ck him over.

Why do parents entrust their children to this institution?

And getting back to my earlier questions, according to Hawkins' own words, he doesn't have legitimate interest in ND. We're simply an insurance policy for him (though he deserves some credit for realizing that he may need one in dealing with Kiffin).

Isn't there risk involved with inviting kids like this to our big recruiting extravaganza? I'm sure SC will have offered several other big names there, and this will be an opportunity for Hawkins to recruit them for the Trogans.

 

[simets99]

This strikes me as a incredibly f*cked up. Hawkins is a consensus 4 CB who has professed, along with his parents, that he's 100% Trogan. Yet there's legitimate concern that USC won't honor his scholarship offer, and so he's taking visits in case his dream school decides to f*ck him over.

Why do parents entrust their children to this institution?

And getting back to my earlier questions, according to Hawkins' own words, he doesn't have legitimate interest in ND. We're simply an insurance policy for him (though he deserves some credit for realizing that he may need one in dealing with Kiffin).

Isn't there risk involved with inviting kids like this to our big recruiting extravaganza? I'm sure SC will have offered several other big names there, and this will be an opportunity for Hawkins to recruit them for the Trogans.

He shouldn't recruit too hard the guy he recruits might take his spot.

 

[Cackalacky]

Imagine this..... Chris gets his dismissal from USC and actually enjoys his ND visit, then swears by vehement oath to personally destroy all Trojans in his path onwards to a national championship alongside this top notch defense we are currently building...... eh.... eh...



one can dream LOL

 

[NDinL.A.]

This strikes me as a incredibly f*cked up. Hawkins is a consensus 4 CB who has professed, along with his parents, that he's 100% Trogan. Yet there's legitimate concern that USC won't honor his scholarship offer, and so he's taking visits in case his dream school decides to f*ck him over.

Why do parents entrust their children to this institution?

And getting back to my earlier questions, according to Hawkins' own words, he doesn't have legitimate interest in ND. We're simply an insurance policy for him (though he deserves some credit for realizing that he may need one in dealing with Kiffin).

Isn't there risk involved with inviting kids like this to our big recruiting extravaganza? I'm sure SC will have offered several other big names there, and this will be an opportunity for Hawkins to recruit them for the Trogans.

I don't even think he takes his visit here. USC will let him know how they feel about it, and he'll decide against it. And IF USC lets him visit, then we'll know something's up and they might have some bigger fish to fry.

But knowing what we know, I doubt he even visits.

 

[Wizzle32]

I don't even think he takes his visit here. USC will let him know how they feel about it, and he'll decide against it. And IF USC lets him visit, then we'll know something's up and they might have some bigger fish to fry.

But knowing what we know, I doubt he even visits.

After Hargreaves visit to USC he named them their leader. With that said Ramsey is a sure lock and Priest has USC high on his list as well. My question is, do you think this is why he is visiting other schools? Will they be able to take 4 CBs?

 

[Emcee77]

Yes, this is exactly why he is considering other visits. That's what we're saying. And it's effed up. We didn't tell McGlinchey to take a hike because Dorian Johnson wanted in and he is a better prospect. If you make an offer you should honor it; how else can you expect the kids to honor their commitments?

 

[irishfanjho15]

Yes, this is exactly why he is considering other visits. That's what we're saying. And it's effed up. We didn't tell McGlinchey to take a hike because Dorian Johnson wanted in and he is a better prospect. If you make an offer you should honor it; how else can you expect the kids to honor their commitments?

Lets hope, in U$C's case, they don't.

 

[Cackalacky]

Seriously, I dont like USC and I really dont like Kiffin, but if you were limited in scholarships, are y'all telling me you would not take the best of the commitments come NSD?

I mean we all sit here and bitch and moan about nothing is settled until NSD anyway. We speculate to no end about stuff like this everyday. I would love to be in the position USC is in with recruits every year, even with their sanctions.

Maybe Kiffin told Hawkins " hey man you can commit but we are waiting for some guys and if that comes through you may not have a spot." Maybe he told him " we're recruitng Vernon Hargreaves as a RB." Does anyone know this for sure? I doubt it...

If I was Kiffin, I would take the best of the crop no doubt. I would be honest about it and I would hope he would be too, but none of us know why and under what circumstances Hawkins committed.

Nothing is actionable till NSD and these kids know that. That is their leverage. This is the only leverage they have until they graduate and hopefully go to the NFL, cause once they sign that line, the school can do whatever (i.e one year scholarships).

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Even if Kiffin has been upfront with Hawkins about other prospects being higher on their board (of which I have my doubts), no school should accept a verbal commitment from a kid unless it's prepared to give him a scholarship in February. It's unethical.

 

[Cackalacky]

Whiskey, in yours and my minds, and many others here, it is unethical, but not illegal. Nothing is set until NSD. I agree parents and the student athletes should be wary of USC, but they are not in fact doing anything wrong. Scholarships are according to the NCAA only year by year anyway, and it is pertinent under what circumstances he commited. After reading the 1st two pages, this kid seemed wishy-washy the whole time. What did he do or say to Stanford? Did he say to them he would commit if did not USC offer? What about any of the other schools he visited? As soon as he got his USC offer he commited.... is that unethical too......

I like that ND honors commitments for 4-5 years and we have our own way of doing things, though I think it hamstrings our football program to an extent. I think that it is also a great selling point for us.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Whiskey, in yours and my minds, and many others here, it is unethical, but not illegal. Nothing is set until NSD. I agree parents and the student athletes should be wary of USC, but they are not in fact doing anything wrong.

So we agree that it's unethical, but not illegal.

Scholarships are according to the NCAA only year by year anyway, and it is pertinent under what circumstances he commited. After reading the 1st two pages, this kid seemed wishy-washy the whole time. What did he do or say to Stanford? Did he say to them he would commit if did not USC offer? What about any of the other schools he visited? As soon as he got his USC offer he commited.... is that unethical too......

Not really following you here. Your previous comment about recruits having little leverage, and virtually none after signing a LOI, is exactly why it's imperative for schools to treat them ethically. As in, to not offer a scholarship, accept a verbal commitment, and then rescind that offer when a better prospect comes calling closer to NSD.

I like that ND honors commitments for 4-5 years and we have our own way of doing things, though I think it hamstrings our football program to an extent. I think that it is also a great selling point for us.

I agree it cuts both ways for us, but it's also the right thing to do. I hope that never changes.

 

[Wizzle32]

Brian Kelly and the staff is the type of recruiter that gives all the negatives along with the positives and then lets the recruit decide without pressure. He wants to make sure the recruit really wants to go to ND but more important He wants the recruit to know it was his decision. Kelly and staff makes it all about what is best for the recruit as a student, football player and fitting in at ND meaning the recruit will be happy there.

Kiffin on the other hand talks the recruit into going to USC and making him think it was his choice but in reality it is all about what is best for the school as a football team. He doesn’t care a lot about the recruit as a person. If the player can’t help USC he will get rid of him one way or another.

thats my take on things but im sure a lot of people will disagree

 

[Emcee77]

I agree it cuts both ways for us, but it's also the right thing to do. I hope that never changes.

Exactly. Its just unfair to the kids. A football program might have to stick with a guy with a 91 rating on 247 and tell that 95-rated guy that there is no room, but that's way less serious than the risk that a kid might be left out in the cold because his scholarship to his dream school was pulled out from under him for no reason other than that someone else came along. I just don't feel ok about that. Call me a softie.

 

[Cackalacky]

So we agree that it's unethical, but not illegal.



Not really following you here. Your previous comment about recruits having little leverage, and virtually none after signing a LOI, is exactly why it's imperative for schools to treat them ethically. As in, to not offer a scholarship, accept a verbal commitment, and then rescind that offer when a better prospect comes calling closer to NSD.



I agree it cuts both ways for us, but it's also the right thing to do. I hope that never changes.

You misunderstand or I misspoke. I intended to say that this time before NSD is the only time they do have leverage.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

You misunderstand or I misspoke. I intended to say that this time before NSD is the only time they do have leverage.

I think we're on the same page here. So why does an unsigned recruit having some small measure of leverage prior to signing his LOI (and losing all of it) make it OK for Kiffin to pull an accepted offer in favor of a higher ranked prospect? I understand it's legal, but it's also clearly unethical; you seem to disagree with the latter assertion, or I'm misunderstanding you.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Just want to point out there is zero evidence that kiffy is even thinking of doing what's been said here. All we know is Chrus is the one still accepting calls from other coaches. Every USC tidbit I've seen or heard has Chris being a part of this class. Could be that he just likes to play the recruiting game, could be him scared of being bumped. No kne knows.

And to answer an earlier question, USC plans on taking 5 DB's this class...

 

[ndcoltsfan2010]

Yes, this is exactly why he is considering other visits. That's what we're saying. And it's effed up. We didn't tell McGlinchey to take a hike because Dorian Johnson wanted in and he is a better prospect. If you make an offer you should honor it; how else can you expect the kids to honor their commitments?

Its called integrity. Some folks have it and some dont. Enough said. I feel for this young man and truly hope the right thing is done. We'll see.

 

[Wizzle32]

Just want to point out there is zero evidence that kiffy is even thinking of doing what's been said here. All we know is Chrus is the one still accepting calls from other coaches. Every USC tidbit I've seen or heard has Chris being a part of this class. Could be that he just likes to play the recruiting game, could be him scared of being bumped. No kne knows.

And to answer an earlier question, USC plans on taking 5 DB's this class...

very well said and thanks for the answer

 

[Cackalacky]

I think we're on the same page here. So why does an unsigned recruit having some small measure of leverage prior to signing his LOI (and losing all of it) make it OK for Kiffin to pull an accepted offer in favor of a higher ranked prospect? I understand it's legal, but it's also clearly unethical; you seem to disagree with the latter assertion, or I'm misunderstanding you.

In my mind it is unethical, but NCAA football is a big business and as we all know (most)business is amoral,. The NCAA has an established "rule book- established code of ethics" with "regulators to monitor actions of those taking part of the NCAA"..... and I guess what I am getting at is this:

To the extreme, look at what the #1 recruit is doing to Clemson. He is using his personal recruiting "leverage" to get a scholarship for his buddy whose otherwise best offer is to Ole Miss, where the #1 recruits brother already plays. He is leveraging Clemson by saying get this guy a scholarship and I am done, no more talking to any schools.....That is a lot of leverage for one person. Dabo Swinney is in a precarious position and it is public info this is going on. All the talk radio down here where I live is "lets see if Dabo has any balls" and "if Dabo let's this kid get away he should demoted to waterboy"..."SoCar got a #1 recruit, Clemson better get this one...etc." Believe me it is a big deal here in SC and Dabo is feeling the public pressure to get this kid. How does he do it? We will see.....

In general all of these guys tend to play this amoral game at some level to get the best opportunity for themselves, because in the end, some will go onto NFL, some will get hurt, some will transfer away, some are just damn glad to be there on a full ride, and some will try hard to get a valuable degree. A student-athlete may have his dream school, but that does not mean he will not be able to leverage a bettter position at another school, say with more playing time, or a better depth chart, or a better educational opportunity, should he have an injury that no one knows about..... I have always wondered what could have made Greenberry drop us on NSD for Houston.... not that I am upset about it, but what did the Houston coach promise, and what did Greenberry tell ND to convince them he was Irish up until NSD.... ? who knows....?

My main point is that the kids play the game (to some extent) just like the schools do. I know we like to gleam the possibility that we know whats going on from the recruitniks and Wiltfong's of the world but we really don't know but what is given to us and then we speculate or assert.

And I agree with LA that there are no indications Kiffin considereds Hawkins anything but part of the team. Hawkins on the otherhand may be looking at all of the DBs coming in and may feel he may not ever see the field. So he could leverage himself at another school in some manner just by taking visits and seing what other schools are willing to "offer" him because he is already a USC commit, but with the knowledge, that the rug could be pulled out from under him. USCs roster is full of just as equally talented Dbs from the incoming class, to those in the last two classes...but I would gladly take Hawkins at ND this year and I am sure Kelly would too. Its just the position we need most and I have always seen him as a possible flip (total speculation on my part). Whats to say Hawkins doesnt come in to ND and say "I'm going to give the Irish a much harder look now."?

Anyway, I just dont think it is all the schools fault, and I am certainly not going to blame them for playing the game as the rules are set, just as in any business. Though I do think the kids are not always aware of what they are getting themselves into with some schools and should beware.... because once you have signed that LOI, you are said property of school for at least 1-year.

I apologize for the long post.

If this topic belongs in its own thread, so be it. I just felt I needed to clarify my earlier posts......

 

[me9rob]

Just want to point out there is zero evidence that kiffy is even thinking of doing what's been said here. All we know is Chrus is the one still accepting calls from other coaches. Every USC tidbit I've seen or heard has Chris being a part of this class. Could be that he just likes to play the recruiting game, could be him scared of being bumped. No kne knows.

And to answer an earlier question, USC plans on taking 5 DB's this class...

This^ I gotta say I think most USC posters were a little surprised to see that Chris wanted to take visits. And in all honesty, it'd be in our (USC's) best interest to make sure Chris is a part of this class instead of risking an OOS guy who could burn us come NSD. It's a risk that Lane Kiffin has said he doesn't want to take.

 

[beryirish]

This^ I gotta say I think most USC posters were a little surprised to see that Chris wanted to take visits. And in all honesty, it'd be in our (USC's) best interest to make sure Chris is a part of this class instead of risking an OOS guy who could burn us come NSD. It's a risk that Lane Kiffin has said he doesn't want to take.

Hence pry why they are higher on Willis than Vernon due to proximity. Willis is in AZ and Vernon is from FL. He could have a change of heart at the 11th hour wanting to stay closer to home. Both great talents and with space closing up better to take the sure shot at not wavering.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Normally, I always say to let these kids OV, because you never know what happens once you get a kid at ND's campus. But with Hawkins, it's different, at least for me. He is all over USC's rivals premium site, with multiple posts talking about USC and the greatness and closely of their class and who he is recruiting and what-not. Hell, he even broke news for them when he corrected everyone on when a DL from Kentucky (Hatcher) was actually going to commit (this Friday instead of Tuesday). His dad has said he won;t let him decommit (but that can change of course), and his family is so pro-USC that his dad has "fight on" as his ring tone.

So having said that, I don't want Hawkins anywhere near ND when all those other recruits are there at the all-important Michigan game. Let him come on his own dime this summer, or let him come for the BYU game or something. Again, normally I welcome all kids coming, but this kid is all-Trogan, so why don't need to even bother...

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Normally, I always say to let these kids OV, because you never know what happens once you get a kid at ND's campus. But with Hawkins, it's different, at least for me. He is all over USC's rivals premium site, with multiple posts talking about USC and the greatness and closely of their class and who he is recruiting and what-not. Hell, he even broke news for them when he corrected everyone on when a DL from Kentucky (Hatcher) was actually going to commit (this Friday instead of Tuesday). His dad has said he won;t let him decommit (but that can change of course), and his family is so pro-USC that his dad has "fight on" as his ring tone.

So having said that, I don't want Hawkins anywhere near ND when all those other recruits are there at the all-important Michigan game. Let him come on his own dime this summer, or let him come for the BYU game or something. Again, normally I welcome all kids coming, but this kid is all-Trogan, so why don't need to even bother...

/cosigned x 1000

Why open the gates for a Trogan horse during our most important recruiting event of the year? It's just asking for trouble.

 

[Irish Fam]

This was a big issue at the USC game last year. We had so many kids come that were not giving us a serious look that it just turned into a chance for kids to recruit kids to other schools.

 

[NDPhilly]

Yeah John Theus went last year basically making sure that Keith Marshall wouldn't get swayed.

 

[Damion704]

Well someone give a coach or an player the "heads up". Im sure someone has some connects with the program.

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

Yes, yes, and yes. Agree with all.

 

[yankeeND]

Thanks but no thanks Mr. Hawkins, we don't take to kindly too people who don't take too kindly around here. Thanx

 

[GBdomer]

He won't sway anyone to USC because they will basically be full. But Kyle fitts will be at the Michigan game just to make sure they all go to USC. As long as he doesn't talk to priest willis