UFOs, Paranormal, Pseudoscience Thread

[Giddyup]

Well suit yourself but it doesn't belong here.
We have threads on "Culture", "Politics", "Economics", "another shooting" all if you're hinting at something conspiratorial. Obviously we have a thread on terrorism too.

Me?

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

There’s a statistical certainty there is other life in one of the other of trillions of galaxies. There’s also a statistical certainty/probability no form of life can meet each other due to the length of space between each galaxy that people can’t even fathom.

Untrue on the meeting part. You assume humans have a complete knowledge of physics when we don’t. We are evolutionary babies not even in the galactic kindergarten class. We’ll be lucky to grow up before we destroy ourselves.

 

[IrishLion]

There’s a statistical certainty there is other life in one of the other of trillions of galaxies. There’s also a statistical certainty/probability no form of life can meet each other due to the length of space between each galaxy that people can’t even fathom.

The thing that trips me out isn’t even the space between potential life forms, but the time

The odds that a species has figured out interstellar/inter dimensional travel are already long… but you’re also counting on multiple species not only figuring out how to break natural laws allowing the travel, but also overlapping existences over the course of millions of years.

 

[GATTACA!]

Not sure where to put this. Two aviation attacks in two days.

The helicopter knew it should be under 200 but raised straight north a half a mile from the crash. Now Philly gets hit with a plane

No plane crashes while Biden was in office.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

The thing that trips me out isn’t even the space between potential life forms, but the time

The odds that a species has figured out interstellar/inter dimensional travel are already long… but you’re also counting on multiple species not only figuring out how to break natural laws allowing the travel, but also overlapping existences over the course of millions of years.

I’ll say it again gently. Just because we can’t understand it doesn’t rule it out. Bending space time, point jumping, inter dimensional travel are not ruled out by even our limited understanding of physics. It’s highly plausible that any civilization that not only has dominion of its home planets resources but can utilize the resources of its stars will have the sail able resources to do all kinds of things we can’t even dream of.

 

[GATTACA!]

Me?

No. He's talking about post #1,288.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Please leave the politics out of this thread.

 

[Giddyup]

Untrue on the meeting part. You assume humans have a complete knowledge of physics when we don’t. We are evolutionary babies not even in the galactic kindergarten class. We’ll be lucky to grow up before we destroy ourselves.

We should have all started at the same time. If big bang is real

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

We should have all started at the same time. If big bang is real

Nope. Not even remotely accurate. There is no reason to think all civilizations would exist simultaneously or evolve at the exact same rate. That’s not how evolution works. Like at all. Galaxies form at different rates as well and have already come and gone, stars form and explode some of which we are just now seeing but they exploded billions of years ago.

Complex life on this planet only began evolving relatively recently. 500 million years is a small portion of 13 bullion. Every individual population evolves at a different rate in this planet.

 

[Giddyup]

Nope. Not even remotely accurate. There is no reason to think all civilizations would exist simultaneously when galaxies form at different rates and have already come and gone, stars for and explode some of which we are just now seeing but they exploded billions of years ago.

Touche. . I was just guessing

 

[Giddyup]

Ok. I was wrong. Jeez 😂

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Fun fact whenever I travel with my family either flying or driving I make my kid calculate the time dilation due to our slowed down personal time clocks

 

[Old Man Mike]

Against my better judgement, I'll enter this (theoretical) discussion space with a hit-and-run remark:

The recent set of papers sent the government's UAP data collection directorate (as part of a grant to Bigelow Aerospace) were (with one exception) all --- about 20 --- papers exploring means whereby faster-than-light travel might be possible and pursued. Some of these papers (all by theoretical physicists) were directly on that topic, others in supporting areas.

The military (and its military-industrial complex aerospace partners) have been interested in the topic since the 1950s and held think tanks across the decades. One guy that I knew attended and presented at one in the late 1970s. Top level people in military and civilian physics have NOT thought of this as a useless pursuit nor outside the bounds of physics. ... I wish people would get off "I just can't imagine ..." style commentary when they have made no effort to TRY to expand their "imaginations" by finding out what is actually going on.

As to simultaneous civilizations: the SETI community has used the Drake equation to engage in very deep discussions over 5 decades about the likelihood of ETI advanced tech cultures. With very few exceptions, the consensus has been that our galaxy (given its star types and planet production --- and even multiplied by the modern planets-in-the-Goldilocks-Zone findings) should produce about one such civilization per year. (Take something like control of nuclear power as the arbitrary golden moment). If so, the number of them flying around today would be your best guess as to how many years such a hi-tech civilization will survive before being wiped out somehow.

Most SETIans are optimists. They believe that the average advanced tech civilization will be too smart and too aware to do themselves in, and the survival factor will be many many years. Many many civilizations will therefore overlap. If our current theoretical physicists are correct about there being faster-than-light drives, they might be interacting all over the galaxy. (See the Alcubierre Drive as one such concept.)

 

[Old Man Mike]

Supplementary cartoonish thing: back in the 1980s when I wanted to present the SETI Optimistic scenario where advanced civilizations DON'T destroy themselves but only die off due to cosmic catastrophes like supernovas or ultra-effective plagues, I'd put this attached graph up on the screen. As you see, the galaxy wouldn't lack for inhabitants.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

I love Mr. Ballen.

 

[rikkitikki08]

Fun fact whenever I travel with my family either flying or driving I make my kid calculate the time dilation due to our slowed down personal time clocks

Fun Fact, you’re a much better parent than me haha

All my son wants to talk about are farts and sports

 

[Old Man Mike]

I can't get into this topic here on IE (WAY too complex in every claimed experience for a format like this) but with apologies for the inadequate comment, I'll say:

1. Most of my colleagues prefer to call this type of claim a CE4/onboard experience. "Abduction" it might be, but there are a small number where the claim is a voluntary walk-on. And I just don't like the word. An irrational prejudice.

2. Most of my colleagues, and myself, rate the following two cases much higher than Walton: a.) Betty and Barney Hill ; and b.) The Buff Ledge Incident. The primary researcher in both of those was Walt Webb, pretty much a legend for thoroughness.

3. I met Walton briefly once. He was very "talk shy" at that time. I have a rare cassette of him talking with Dr. Hynek and Coral Lorenzen which is better. The most serious ufo researchers get a bit queasy about his case because his boss on the lumber gang, Mike Rogers, has been a little too loose about involving money into the case. We'd like to have things as clean of ulterior motives as possible. Walton is a bit of an odd character for me in that he has almost changed his personality as regards media (and just people) interactions several times. One could view that as a positive I guess, but again, I like things clean.

4. For me there are very few CE4s which I credit. But there might be as many as a couple of dozen in the files which I'm "patient" about. On the other hand, there are probably 100+ good credibility humanoid reports not involving "inside looks."

5. I knew Budd Hopkins and Dave Jacobs and even John Mack personally (Budd and Dave far more) and I can state with strong assurance that Budd and Dave's hypnosis techniques generally sucked --- so take all of their "details" with large deposits of salt.

I've probably said too much for this format, but I know some are interested and open-minded and willing to learn. Remember that you don't need hundreds of Zebras in your local zoo for there to be real Zebras. If really interested in finding a Zebra, maybe read Walt Webb's book The Buff Ledge Incident --- very impressive due to the independence of the testimony of the two on-board claimants.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

I can't get into this topic here on IE (WAY too complex in every claimed experience for a format like this) but with apologies for the inadequate comment, I'll say:

1. Most of my colleagues prefer to call this type of claim a CE4/onboard experience. "Abduction" it might be, but there are a small number where the claim is a voluntary walk-on. And I just don't like the word. An irrational prejudice.

2. Most of my colleagues, and myself, rate the following two cases much higher than Walton: a.) Betty and Barney Hill ; and b.) The Buff Ledge Incident. The primary researcher in both of those was Walt Webb, pretty much a legend for thoroughness.

3. I met Walton briefly once. He was very "talk shy" at that time. I have a rare cassette of him talking with Dr. Hynek and Coral Lorenzen which is better. The most serious ufo researchers get a bit queasy about his case because his boss on the lumber gang, Mike Rogers, has been a little too loose about involving money into the case. We'd like to have things as clean of ulterior motives as possible. Walton is a bit of an odd character for me in that he has almost changed his personality as regards media (and just people) interactions several times. One could view that as a positive I guess, but again, I like things clean.

4. For me there are very few CE4s which I credit. But there might be as many as a couple of dozen in the files which I'm "patient" about. On the other hand, there are probably 100+ good credibility humanoid reports not involving "inside looks."

5. I knew Budd Hopkins and Dave Jacobs and even John Mack personally (Budd and Dave far more) and I can state with strong assurance that Budd and Dave's hypnosis techniques generally sucked --- so take all of their "details" with large deposits of salt.

I've probably said too much for this format, but I know some are interested and open-minded and willing to learn. Remember that you don't need hundreds of Zebras in your local zoo for there to be real Zebras. If really interested in finding a Zebra, maybe read Walt Webb's book The Buff Ledge Incident --- very impressive due to the independence of the testimony of the two on-board claimants.

OMM …I’m extremely interested in this stuff. At the risk of seeming naive, I am curious on how the community rates CE4 type events versus observational type events. I understand that sometimes these things overlap like the Walton event but I mean we all also understand eyewitness testimony is not totally accurate all the time but how are CE4 type events understood to be credible if it’s a solitary individual? It would seem to me that these types of events are almost immediately dismissible since the only eyewitness is the person it happened to. Are there paths of investigation that can provide backup to their stories? Regressive hypnosis? Physical or mental trauma that can be revealed and documented?

 

[IrishLion]

Encounter at Buff Ledge : a UFO case history : Webb, Walter N : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

xxx, 306 p. : 24 cm

archive.org

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Encounter at Buff Ledge : a UFO case history : Webb, Walter N : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

xxx, 306 p. : 24 cm

archive.org

Thanks guy!

 

[IrishLion]

There’s also a very detailed rundown on Reddit. Interesting because it relates part of their experience to other cases where abductees were “transported” to similar locations with purple/red sky, unique architecture/nature, and other people sharing the space, before returning to Earth in a discombobulated state.

My amateur belief is that people are shown a vision or preview of elsewhere as either a “thank you” or a “fair trade” from the visitors, but in such a way that the humans’ brains aren’t totally melted by the disclosure (possibly a simulation… like if we used VR to show an alien a very small sampling of our environment)

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

There’s also a very detailed rundown on Reddit. Interesting because it relates part of their experience to other cases where abductees were “transported” to similar locations with purple/red sky, unique architecture/nature, and other people sharing the space, before returning to Earth in a discombobulated state.

My amateur belief is that people are shown a vision or preview of elsewhere as either a “thank you” or a “fair trade” from the visitors, but in such a way that the humans’ brains aren’t totally melted by the disclosure (possibly a simulation… like if we used VR to show an alien a very small sampling of our environment)

Yeah. I have read stories essentially saying that the people were provided information but that it wasn’t accessible until needed and their memories are essentially what the visitors wanted them to remember and nothing more

All the talk about human psionic capabilities and being able to communicate with alien tech and occupants is extremely wild.

 

[Old Man Mike]

As I said: can't give good answers in this simple format --- way too complex questions (even though I realize that you cannot know what you're asking.) I will violate my standards now with the strong hope that you will not take my shallow thoughts too "authoritatively."

What can I say?: Let me make a scattered list and see if it goes anywhere.

A. The researcher handles all UFO claims identically. Whether a distant object or a CE4, they are all approached similarly in general outline. All UFO cases if they are to be given any importance must have "STRANGENESS" at some significant level, and CREDIBILITY at some highly respectable level. This is why a military case with testimony of officers that the objects flew their pants off begins with such strength.

B. CE4s hardly lack for STRANGENESS in the reports so we can forget that half of this for this discussion. That leaves CREDIBILITY. We research credibility in any case that we take seriously.

C. How? Who is the person doing the claiming? Are they respected by colleagues, employers, neighbors --- yes there is often such a detective element in the heavyweight cases (softly done if possible, but some "character" elements looked for.) This is why so much weight is placed on military and police witnesses --- character check comes almost automatically. Are there multiple witnesses? Betty AND Barney Hill; Two independent (hardly knew each other) witnesses at Buff Ledge; Walton and the lumber team; Three Kentucky ladies in their automobile, etc. Almost never is a CE4 independently attested, though Buff Ledge is the White Crow here. LOTS of other types of close encounters have independent witnesses. Is the commentary of the witness consistent over several weeks? Does the witness claim great things for themselves? Does the witness try to make a buck out of it? More importantly, is the witness in a place, time, and circumstance before, during, and after the claimed event that has solid real world context for them in their lives? Lastly (not really, I'm just quitting), if there is other supportive evidence (traces, even bad photos let alone radar and military instruments) these things are NOT the "proof" but if they fit the flow of the report they help corroborate it. NOBODY views any civilian photography as "proof" given what you can do. Shallow debunkers throw that red herring up all the time in their intellectual laziness.

D. CE4s have this extra ingredient of the witness not having much conscious recall. This is why I tend to toss them in the gray basket. But others like hypnosis so they use it. There is a LOT of BAD hypnosis going on out there, plus ever since Hopkins'first book there has been a game plan for any wannabe to follow to get taken seriously by bad researchers. (BIG story there and I am NOT going into it.) Betty Hill herself wrote to UFO researchers warning them that bad hypnotists were roaming around screwing up people's heads. And many people's heads are already screwed up --- a test of a bunch of CE4 claimants shows a way-abnormally-large amount of PTSD AND Child abuse in the cohort. People can choose to dance with some of that in more than one way. I do not. I view it as possible bad contamination and don't like it.
..... and I don't need it. I know what the objects can do. Don't know HOW they do it, but damm sure WHAT they can do. I also know that what's behind them has had (and demonstrated --- see Minot) plenty of opportunity to really mess us up, and has not done so. But folks argue: you don't know what's inside! The CE4-ers do! Do they? Even if I credited the stories, why would I assume that "The Great and Powerful OZ" was showing ANYONE the real stuff behind the Curtain (inside the craft)? The game has been a display performance. It shows us what IT can do, but nothing ever about how it does it. .... and isn't that exactly what we'd do?

Anyway --- I have to be done. This is far more complicated than even that last gush can honorably say.

p.s. Old Man has badly hurting muscle and big pain for several days. I hitting the sack. If you respond and think I'm ignoring you, well, I guess, in some sense I am. Wish me luck on the sleep; have to set up Mass tomorrow morning for Father Don here ---probably a mixed blessing.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

I appreciate the response OMM.

 

[Sea Turtle]

I can't get into this topic here on IE (WAY too complex in every claimed experience for a format like this) but with apologies for the inadequate comment, I'll say:

1. Most of my colleagues prefer to call this type of claim a CE4/onboard experience. "Abduction" it might be, but there are a small number where the claim is a voluntary walk-on. And I just don't like the word. An irrational prejudice.

2. Most of my colleagues, and myself, rate the following two cases much higher than Walton: a.) Betty and Barney Hill ; and b.) The Buff Ledge Incident. The primary researcher in both of those was Walt Webb, pretty much a legend for thoroughness.

3. I met Walton briefly once. He was very "talk shy" at that time. I have a rare cassette of him talking with Dr. Hynek and Coral Lorenzen which is better. The most serious ufo researchers get a bit queasy about his case because his boss on the lumber gang, Mike Rogers, has been a little too loose about involving money into the case. We'd like to have things as clean of ulterior motives as possible. Walton is a bit of an odd character for me in that he has almost changed his personality as regards media (and just people) interactions several times. One could view that as a positive I guess, but again, I like things clean.

4. For me there are very few CE4s which I credit. But there might be as many as a couple of dozen in the files which I'm "patient" about. On the other hand, there are probably 100+ good credibility humanoid reports not involving "inside looks."

5. I knew Budd Hopkins and Dave Jacobs and even John Mack personally (Budd and Dave far more) and I can state with strong assurance that Budd and Dave's hypnosis techniques generally sucked --- so take all of their "details" with large deposits of salt.

I've probably said too much for this format, but I know some are interested and open-minded and willing to learn. Remember that you don't need hundreds of Zebras in your local zoo for there to be real Zebras. If really interested in finding a Zebra, maybe read Walt Webb's book The Buff Ledge Incident --- very impressive due to the independence of the testimony of the two on-board claimants.

There is alot of pushback on the Betty and Barney Hill case by people with an open mind.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Perhaps I shouldn't note this since it's a personal publication, but I know that some are interested in the area. The Center for UFO Studies (CUFOS; of which I'm a board member) asked me if I'd add something to the website --- "just for fun and novel thinking's sake" --- since it's hard to keep the outside world interested. Life here at the retirement home has settled enough (post all the water damages and moving about), so I wrote a short piece called "Bubbles." It's about how the ET tech might be involved in spatial manipulation. If anyone wishes, you can just Google CUFOS and go there. Doesn't cost anything (didn't use to anyway.) It's on the first page and the site editor has called it "Caught in a Bubble."

FWIW

 

[ColoradoIrish]

Wasn't sure where to post this article, but this seemed like the best thread

Promising hints of life found on distant planet K2-18b

Scientists find new but tentative evidence that a faraway world orbiting another star may be home to life.

www.bbc.com

 

[Old Man Mike]

The dimethylsulfide discovery is interesting but we're in unknown territory here so far as cosmic biogenesis is concerned.

The reason is that: DMS is such a simple molecule (two methyl [CH3] groups and a sulfur atom.) You can produce it on the lab bench without "Life" helping. That action requires only methanol and hydrogen sulfide. What holds out hope is that the lab bench (industrial style) synthesis DOES use a metal catalyst probably not found readily in nature en masse. We've got "tons" of DMS all over the Earth (literally) but our microorganisms make it using clever organic catalysts. BUT ...

Unfortunately for Romanticism, scientists have found DMS in a comet. Our views about comet formation would then make as a primary assumption that the DMS in this comet was formed in space itself Abiotically (NOT needing life to help out.) Also unfortunately, other examinations of meteoric debris, have shown that space seems to be able to produce many interesting pre-Life molecules (such as almost all of the protein-unit amino-acids, plus some nucleic acid parts, plus sugars, glycol, alcohols, etc.) --- I personally own two pieces of carbonaceous chondrite meteorites (the Murchison and the Allende) which contain most of these molecules, though not to my knowledge DMS.

So, my best guess on the status of this discovery is:
1. The discovery seems solid. That is, DMS' presence there has been confirmed;
2. Currently, the scientific community doesn't see how Nature can make this in high quantities without Life;
3. Currently, the scientific community DOES see Nature as likely making it in SOME quantity without Life;
4. Therefore, the alternative hypothesis would involve unusual force relationships at that planet allows such abiotic synthesis.

so, we still wait for the undeniable hard fact.

 

[calvegas04]

What blows my mind is how they can see/detect molecules that are trillions of miles away

 

[greyhammer90]

What blows my mind is how they can see/detect molecules that are trillions of miles away

Same here. If anybody who has knowledge can do an "Explain like I'm 5 years old" on how they do this, I'd be interested to read it. I would assume it has to be related to light refraction since light is the only thing reaching us from that distance but how you would use that to determine the amount of a particular molecule from hundreds of LYs away is lost on me.