Torture Report

Whiskeyjack

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Since you mentioned 9/11 I would like to point out that none of us have a clear understanding of what lead to and happened that day but according to the congressmen who have seen the full report... we will be shocked when we do find out.

The redacted portions of the 9/11 report would have cast the House of Saud in a very unfavorable light. But our mandarins find it convenient to maintain an "alliance" with Saudia Arabia, so that piece of the report remains unfit for public consumption.
 
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tussin

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Am I missing anything in this timeline?

My point is that there is a big jump from me saying this:

This report was clearly written with a anti-CIA bias and I think the truth/effectiveness of the tactics lie somewhere in the middle.

Which in turn causes you to repeatedly insist this:

You didn't know anything about the report.

I know the facts that were presented and the interpretation by the Senate Committee. You read the entire document (good job) and I did not. You and I disagree on some of the conclusions drawn. We can end our pissing match now.
 

Fbolt

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i find it humorous that reading the report suddenly makes you knowledgeable on the CIA detainee program. I recently saw a post by WB using "presumably". Key IMO, as that is all this report can be taken as, a presumption of knowledge. This report was started, prepared, and released with a political agenda and is an opinion piece.
 

woolybug25

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My point is that there is a big jump from me saying this:



Which in turn causes you to repeatedly insist this:



I know the facts that were presented and the interpretation by the Senate Committee. You read the entire document (good job) and I did not. You and I disagree on some of the conclusions drawn. We can end our pissing match now.

Convenient of you to take one of your first comments, and my last, and act like nothing was written in between. Like the calling my posts "garbage", insinuating that I didn't have a job, responding to others with snide comments regarding our argument and trying to change the subject in order to save face. But ok...

You're right, we can end the pissing match any time you are ready.
 

T Town Tommy

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The redacted portions of the 9/11 report would have cast the House of Saud in a very unfavorable light. But our mandarins find it convenient to maintain an "alliance" with Saudia Arabia, so that piece of the report remains unfit for public consumption.

Agree... but right now our "friends" are putting a hurting on Iran and Russia by refusing to lower their oil production. But alas... that's for another thread.
 

woolybug25

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i find it humorous that reading the report suddenly makes you knowledgeable on the CIA detainee program.

No, but it makes you more knowledgeable about what the report actually states.

I recently saw a post by WB using "presumably". Key IMO, as that is all this report can be taken as, a presumption of knowledge. This report was started, prepared, and released with a political agenda and is an opinion piece.

It was started long ago with support from many sides. The report itself, has three parts, so it has three political agendas. Finally, what committee report throughout the history of time is not "an opinion piece". It's literally the entire reason the report is created, to get an opinion of what happened. In this case, three opinions that btw, agree on a lot of the torture.
 

Irish#1

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There is a Republican part and a CIA rebuttal.

C'mon guys... are you even freaking reading the thing? John McCain even wants this information out and has made public comments regarding the need for us to address this.

I didn't read the report, but I heard the accounts on the news including McCain's. Personally, I'm not against some forms of torture if the circumstances dictate it. I'm not for torture that involves penetrating the body.
 

nsideirish

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The argument that these people were terrorists and deserved to be tortured irks me to no end. Even if you believe that actual terrorists do deserve to be tortured (personally, I do not), you have to understand that so many of these detainees were being held (and subjected to torture) without any real evidence against them or any chance to plead their case.

Take, for example, Lakhdar Boumediene, a Bosnian native. He was detained in the months following 9/11 for just being an "acquaintance" of a man who had made phone calls into Pakistan and Afghanistan. That was the only "evidence" against him. He was held for seven years away from his family and homeland without ANY chance to present his case.

Read about his ordeal here: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/opinion/sunday/my-guantanamo-nightmare.html?_r=0

One quote that stands out:

"I still had faith in American justice. I believed my captors would quickly realize their mistake and let me go. But when I would not give the interrogators the answers they wanted — how could I, when I had done nothing wrong? — they became more and more brutal. I was kept awake for many days straight. I was forced to remain in painful positions for hours at a time. These are things I do not want to write about; I want only to forget."

And he was one of many that faced similar circumstances. But yeah, Go USA! Go get dose dere terrorists!
 

phork

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Torturing suspects makes us no different than terrorists. To me, there is a sense that being an American is more than just a happy accident of geographical birthplace. Our sacred documents describe a nation that was conceived under a higher standard of human digity and greater ideals. If we are willing to use barbaric and sadistic means to extract information, what is the moral foundation on which we are committing these vile acts? Are we abandoning those ideals to somehow protect them and the people who hold them dear? These acts were committed by people who will insist they are patriots of the highest order, yet they led us to a dark and disturbing place against the national will. As a citizen of this country, I feel shame as I read exerpts from this report.

Well quite frankly the "powers that be" (whoever you want to label this as, the US or specifically people in the US Government), caused a lot of this. Installing puppet regimes, aiding and abetting terrorists vs the Russians, removing "unfriendly" leaders of other countries, lobbing tomahawks from afar (and now drones).

There was a time I was sympathetic to the loss of life on all sides. That was until beheadings of innocent people. Not even military personel, though I despise it all, you could reason it a war casualty. Yes I am aware that most Muslims are not terrorists, No I have no respect for anyone who takes up arms against innocents and would love to see them dipped (only half way) into a cauldron of boiling oil. This politcal correctness needs to stop. There are bad people in this world. There are people in this world who would rape your mother in front of you as they sliced your throat from ear to ear, praising God the whole time. If you happen to associate with those people thats a poor decision you made and if you end up as collateral damage, meh. I don't hang out in crack houses, I don't expect to be raided and carted off to jail.

If those "actions" include torturing of human beings, then those actions are contrary to American ideals. I knew people who were in the World Trade Center and in the Pentagon during the attacks, so you don't really have to tell me what happened on 9/11. Our beliefs are only such if they can stand up to circumstances that test them. In this test, we failed as a nation. We do not torture people, period.

American ideals, LOLZ.

Two things are important to me:

#1: CIA lied to Congress and american peolple... once again!

#2: There is a clear lack of empathy for other human beings on this board. I truly hope this is not reflective of what the majority think. I've read more than a few times that torture is justified based on they have done to the US in the past. Guess what... it isn't and as human being we should protect the lives of the innocent. On that last point. A study came out last week I believe that showed that US drone strikes kill 28 innocent/unknown for every intended target.

I am comfortable giving an intelligence agency some freedom, because some times you just have to get dirty.
Lack of empathy? I empathize with the hundreds or thousands of Christians heads who are now on spikes and line streets in Syria. I would like to see the same fate happen to their murderers, except slower and more painful.
 

jerboski

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Very well justified but in the end they lied because they were ashamed of what they did. Since you mentioned 9/11 I would like to point out that none of us have a clear understanding of what lead to and happened that day but according to the congressmen who have seen the full report... we will be shocked when we do find out.

I don't have a perfect solution but it could be easily be argued that the US has "created" more terrorists themselves by their actions. So stop the actions that create terrorists.

You have no concrete knowledge for the reason for them "lying" to associate they are ashamed is quite an assumption in my opinion. I am sure the CIA lies routinely to protect sources and valuable intel which they use to keep our country and military abroad safe so I wouldn't be so quick to throw out the ashamed card.

Fair enough about 9/11 however there are some facts that are indisputable, since 9/11 the CIA as well as other intelligence agencies for the United States have been at war with terrorism, is it safe to say that we have not had another successful terrorist attack on US soil, if that answer is yes then we must conclude that the CIA and other intelligence agencies have had some sort of success because we know without a doubt there are terrorist groups such as ISIS and others that have and are planning attacks against the US which have not come to fruition.

As far as America creating terrorist, I find that to be a little unrealistic. Does America have its hands in some of this absolutely however I don't feel we are creating terrorist, groups such as ISIS and Al Queda, would find their way into existence regardless so I don't believe our "actions" are what is causing terrorism.
 

Irish#1

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I don't want to put words in enrico514's mouth, but I think this thread has posts that are a small sliver of the lack of empathy that is abundant on IE. The politics thread, the "rioting in St. Louis" thread, the white priveledge thread, and many others are full of posts that demonstrate a lack of human empathy. Not sure if he was speaking that broadly or talking about this thread in particular, but I agree with the point either way.

Your judging some us us from your own feelings. Maybe we have plenty of empathy. Maybe you have more than the average person?

Now we have to start a debate on what constitutes the average person!
 
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Grahambo

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You didn't know anything about the report. You clearly stated:



In which, I stated that you "clearly" hadn't read the report. Especially considering a section of the report is written by the CIA.

Then you acted like I was attacking you, acted like you couldn't pull up the report because you "had a job" (apparently I am to assume that you believe that I do not), tried to change the subject to drones and now accusing me of attacking anyone with an alternative POV (despite Tommy and I having a cordial discussion merely a few posts ago).

Am I missing anything in this timeline?

There are several different reports.

One was done by the Senate Select committee.

The CIA then wrote a report countering that report and trying to get facts straight.

Then there is another report written by the minority on the committee which attacks the Senate's report.

So in essence, there are 3 SEPARATE reports.

And yes, the senate select's piece is an opinion piece. They do a lot of twisting of words.
 

dshans

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<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/oWLByMshYIU?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

GoIrish41

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Just because some disagree with your positions, that does not show lack of empathy. I have plenty of empathy towards all humans, but I just happen to disagree with your position on the majority of the threads you mention. It's ok to disagree on the topics of today. It's not ok to state people lack empathy due to them disagreeing with you. Entirely different.

It doesn't matter who agrees or disagrees with me on the issues, and that is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the flip comments made about the struggles that people go through every day, the lack of acknowledgement that there are even issues in many cases. The characterization that certain groups of people are just lazy, or unprepared, or even incapable of succeeding. That all they want is a government handout, suggesting that they don't have any real dignity or dreams to pull themselves out of poverty, and even if they do it is just a lack of work ethic willingness to take advantage of the generosity that already exists in this nation. They are thugs who get what they deserve. Those types of comments look like a lack of empathy and they are peppered throughout the threads I pointed to. We can talk about solutions to problems that clearly exist, but to just shrug these important issues off looks an aweful lot like a lack of empathy to me. In this case, we have people speaking as if all of these people got what they deserved, despite compelling evidence that some of them were not terrorists and received the same brutal treatment as the actual terrorists because they surely must have been guilty of something. That looks like a lack of empathy. Forget the inhumanity of torturing other human beings. Just look at the comments about the innocents. I was not speaking about you personally in my post, so it is sort of weird that you responed by telling me how much empathy you have toward humans. I'm not suggesting that you don't. I'm saying that some of the posts in the threads I mentioned leave me with the impression that some posters lack empathy.
 

ickythump1225

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I don't care one way or the other about the use of "torture" to interrogate terrorist suspects. I just find it amusing that all of these liberals act indignant about this but have no trouble getting behind Obama's latest bombing compaign.
 

ShollaND

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I don't care one way or the other about the use of "torture" to interrogate terrorist suspects. I just find it amusing that all of these liberals act indignant about this but have no trouble getting behind Obama's latest bombing compaign.

You don't care about innocent people being tortured because they 'may' have information?
 

GoIrish41

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Well quite frankly the "powers that be" (whoever you want to label this as, the US or specifically people in the US Government), caused a lot of this. Installing puppet regimes, aiding and abetting terrorists vs the Russians, removing "unfriendly" leaders of other countries, lobbing tomahawks from afar (and now drones).

On this we are in 100% agreement.

There was a time I was sympathetic to the loss of life on all sides. That was until beheadings of innocent people. Not even military personel, though I despise it all, you could reason it a war casualty. Yes I am aware that most Muslims are not terrorists, No I have no respect for anyone who takes up arms against innocents and would love to see them dipped (only half way) into a cauldron of boiling oil. This politcal correctness needs to stop. There are bad people in this world. There are people in this world who would rape your mother in front of you as they sliced your throat from ear to ear, praising God the whole time. If you happen to associate with those people thats a poor decision you made and if you end up as collateral damage, meh. I don't hang out in crack houses, I don't expect to be raided and carted off to jail.

On this, we are at a lower percentage. lol

We take up arms against innocents all the time. Do you think the majority of Iraqis were itching for a fight when we invaded them? I don't, but a lot of them died nonetheless. Their infrastructure was reduced to rubble and their lives forever disrupted. There are bad people in this world, no doubt. And many of our "enemies" overseas can make a compelling argument that we are at the top of the list. The fact that we committed these atrocities just gives them more fuel to throw on an already white-hot fire. The bolded is the saddest statement I've seen on this board today.
 

GoIrish41

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I don't care one way or the other about the use of "torture" to interrogate terrorist suspects. I just find it amusing that all of these liberals act indignant about this but have no trouble getting behind Obama's latest bombing compaign.

All these liberals are not behind Obama's latest bombing campaign.

This isn't a democrat and republican argument. It is about who we are as a society.
 

Booslum31

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You don't care about innocent people being tortured because they 'may' have information?

Innocent? That's interesting. What were they doing when they were captured and who were they associated with? I heard someone ask the question once...if your child was kidnapped and authorities had a suspect in custody that they believed knew where your child was being held, would you be against certain tactics to get him to talk? I don't know if that question pertains to this discussion but I'll never forget the pain that terrorist have inflicted on this country...and they will do more in the years to come. No sympathy here for known terrorist being "convinced" to tell us what they know. Oh, and i fully recognize that it doesn't always work. Babe Ruth made the HOF while being the all-time strikeout leader...until Mr. Bonds came along that is.
 

Wild Bill

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It doesn't matter who agrees or disagrees with me on the issues, and that is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the flip comments made about the struggles that people go through every day, the lack of acknowledgement that there are even issues in many cases. The characterization that certain groups of people are just lazy, or unprepared, or even incapable of succeeding. That all they want is a government handout, suggesting that they don't have any real dignity or dreams to pull themselves out of poverty, and even if they do it is just a lack of work ethic willingness to take advantage of the generosity that already exists in this nation. They are thugs who get what they deserve. Those types of comments look like a lack of empathy and they are peppered throughout the threads I pointed to. We can talk about solutions to problems that clearly exist, but to just shrug these important issues off looks an aweful lot like a lack of empathy to me. In this case, we have people speaking as if all of these people got what they deserved, despite compelling evidence that some of them were not terrorists and received the same brutal treatment as the actual terrorists because they surely must have been guilty of something. That looks like a lack of empathy. Forget the inhumanity of torturing other human beings. Just look at the comments about the innocents. I was not speaking about you personally in my post, so it is sort of weird that you responed by telling me how much empathy you have toward humans. I'm not suggesting that you don't. I'm saying that some of the posts in the threads I mentioned leave me with the impression that some posters lack empathy.

I see the same lack of empathy for those who are overworked and overtaxed.
 

magogian

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I haven't read the full report, but extreme use of sensory deprivation, waterboarding, and stress positions are definitely on the list of techniques that I'd put in the torture category. The reason I don't think it works is exactly based on your assumption. Most people sing like songbirds, regardless of what they know; they'll tell you whatever you want to know just to make you stop. If you can't break someone using one of the approved techniques, they most likely aren't going to break.

So, in other words, you don't really know.

But some of the people who actually used enhanced methods say they work.
 
B

Buster Bluth

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No I am against anyone who believes that they were in the wrong by using torture as a way to exert information that would be utilized in the assistance of the government.

Torture isn't worth discussing when we are torturing the personnel that were responsible for 9\11 or personnel that committed to crimes against this country.

And yet like 20% of the people tortured weren't totally innocent of being a terrorist, by the CIA's own admission.

No as a member of the US MILITARY I am uninformed about the situation and could use brief from you to inform me. Regardless of how we got into the situation, we are in it and we will be until the problem is solved.

You clearly could use a briefing. The problem won't be solved with torture or bombs. It will create more enemies, which is an A+ strategy for the military-industrial complex.

I am aware of government spending when it comes to wars, it directly effects my family. I know that we have spent countless amounts of dollars however it was neither yours or my decision to do so. If you have a better way of fixing the problem then run for a government position and let your voice be heard.

The lack of logic here is frightening.

Please remember who provides you with the freedoms that you enjoy everyday and remember those who spend countless days, months, and years away from their families to protect you.

Let's me be very clear here, you do not provide me with freedoms. The Constitution provides me with freedoms, many of which your bosses don't think Americans should have and actively work to limit.

Two oceans, the navy, and ICBMs provide me with the security you are falsely insinuating you provide me. Large elements of the War on Terror, and specifically torture, are making us all a bigger target.
 
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nsideirish

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Innocent? That's interesting. What were they doing when they were captured and who were they associated with? I heard someone ask the question once...if your child was kidnapped and authorities had a suspect in custody that they believed knew where your child was being held, would you be against certain tactics to get him to talk? I don't know if that question pertains to this discussion but I'll never forget the pain that terrorist have inflicted on this country...and they will do more in the years to come. No sympathy here for known terrorist being "convinced" to tell us what they know. Oh, and i fully recognize that it doesn't always work. Babe Ruth made the HOF while being the all-time strikeout leader...until Mr. Bonds came along that is.


Yes. Many times, they were innocent (and held and tortured for YEARS without a chance to prove their innocence). I'll post this link again and I highly recommend you, and others, take 5 minutes to read it: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/opinion/sunday/my-guantanamo-nightmare.html?_r=0

Regarding our actions abroad causing rampant hatred of America, this book is all you need to read: http://www.amazon.com/Blowback-Cons...7&sr=8-3&keywords=blowback&pebp=1418252219908
 
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