Torture Report

[tussin]

There are some quasi-moral (e.g. utilitarian) justifications for torture, but every one of them is dependent on it actually working. Since there's no evidence that the CIA's program worked, those arguments are non-starters.

My arguments regarding the inherent immorality of torture and the extreme circumstances under which torture might be morally justifiable flow from Catholic theology. It's a different and much higher bar than the practical one outlined above. The CIA program in question fails to clear either of them.

Can you expand on this?

 

[wizards8507]

Can you expand on this?

I think it's a "if you could travel back in time and kill baby Hitler, would you?" type thing. An evil to prevent a much greater evil.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

I doubt that there is anyway to know for sure. But, I wonder if anyone has squealed before getting tortured. example...

Whiskey refuses to give up Wizards Address. Whiskey then gets Water Boarded , beat up, whatever..

I witness this...Then they come to me...Whats Wizards Address or else your getting...water boarded, beat up, whatever...

I instantly give it up..123 main st.

in essence I got intimidated into it.

So, in this scenario. Torture didn't work, in the sense that the receiver of the torture gave up information, but it did get someone else to talk without torturing.

EDIT: before everyone goes on about how we're not talking about Addresses, I realize that. Just using that for the sake of conversation.

 

[tussin]

I think it's a "if you could travel back in time and kill baby Hitler, would you?" type thing. An evil to prevent a much greater evil.

Wouldn't you just kill him and not torture him?

 

[Wild Bill]

I think it's a "if you could travel back in time and kill baby Hitler, would you?" type thing. An evil to prevent a much greater evil.

Wouldn't you just kill him and not torture him?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Can you expand on this?

Sure. Let's outline a hypothetical that could meet requirements similar to those for just war doctrine:

1. Lasting, Grave and Certain Damage-- You have captured a terrorist who planted a nuclear bomb in New York City. Only he knows the code to disarm it, and has refused to divulge it.
   
2. Other Means Impractical or Ineffective-- The bomb is set to detonate imminently, so there is no time to evacuate the city or transport the bomb to a less populated area.
   
3. Prospects of Success-- You are Jack Bauer, and have never failed to crack a detainee before the commercial break.
   
4. Greater Evil-- The physical and psychological harm your torture will inflict on the terrorist, and the moral harm utilizing such tactics will inflict upon yourself, are far surpassed by the harm that the bomb's explosion will cause.

Under those conditions, torturing the terrorist would be morally justifiable as a lesser evil committed to prevent a much graver one.

But you'll note how inadequate the CIA's case for torture is on this (admittedly high) standard. For (1), the harm was not certain as they were primarily focused on hunting down AQ, not on stopping a known plot. For (2), the available evidence strongly indicates that other more humane methods were both practical and effective. For (3), the available evidence strongly indicates that torture is inherently unreliable. And (4) has the same issue as (1), since the CIA was mostly hunting down AQ, and not seeking to prevent a known plot.

 

[goldandblue]

Whiskey Jack, I could go on with this forever and make an argument toward every comment you make. At the end of the day, we are different people with different thoughts in this particular area. I'm going to save both of us a lot of typing and end our disagreement. If you would like to consider this a win, feel free.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Whiskey Jack, I could go on with this forever and make an argument toward every comment you make. At the end of the day, we are different people with different thoughts in this particular area. I'm going to save both of us a lot of typing and end our disagreement. If you would like to consider this a win, feel free.

I wasn't looking to "win" anything. It seems likely that we're approaching this problem with irreconcilable moral philosophies.

It was a good debate, regardless.

 

[dshans]

Not sure why people keep leaving me out.

I be sowwy.

I often go to scan rather than catalogue mode in threads such as these.

It's a Big Tent cabal ...

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Americans side with the CIA | New York Post

"Two recent polls — one by The Washington Post/ABC News and one by the Pew Research Center — report Americans overwhelmingly support what the CIA did to keep us safe.

In the Pew survey, slightly more than half of Americans say the CIA’s methods were justified, against only 29 percent who said they were unjustified.

The Washington Post/ABC News poll found Americans endorsing the tactics by a two-to-one ratio."

 

[Buster Bluth]

Pretty sad that Americans are more upset with North Korea preventing The Interview's release than their government violating human rights.

 

[IrishLax]

Pretty sad that Americans are more upset with North Korea preventing The Interview's release than their government violating human rights.

People don't give a shit because it wasn't "our" people that it was happening to.

 

[GoldenDomer]

 

[GoldenDomer]

Lol at people who offer any support to people who would kill them on sight.

 

[Redbar]

Americans side with the CIA | New York Post

"Two recent polls — one by The Washington Post/ABC News and one by the Pew Research Center — report Americans overwhelmingly support what the CIA did to keep us safe.

In the Pew survey, slightly more than half of Americans say the CIA’s methods were justified, against only 29 percent who said they were unjustified.

The Washington Post/ABC News poll found Americans endorsing the tactics by a two-to-one ratio."

People don't give a shit because it wasn't "our" people that it was happening to.

Apparently some people think, sometimes the ends justify the means...which makes us moral relativists. Even though most experts agree the means are pretty unreliable, if effective at all, in getting the desired end. Which means maybe we just like an eye for an eye.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Lol at people who offer any support to people who would kill them on sight.

You've never read anything by a guy named Jesus Christ have you?

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you..."

I don't even know how it's possible for a Christian to back the practices described in the torture report. It has nothing to do with my hate for Islamic extremism, it's just not a crazy idea to think that we, while touting that we're the #1 country in the history of the world and a paragon of civilization, shouldn't be puréeing food and feeding people through their assholes. There's a basic level of decency that they might not have but we do. Or should.

 

[GoldenDomer]

You've never read anything by a guy named Jesus Christ have you?

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you..."

I don't even know how it's possible for a Christian to back the practices described in the torture report. It has nothing to do with my hate for Islamic extremism, it's just not a crazy idea to think that we, while touting that we're the #1 country in the history of the world and a paragon of civilization, shouldn't be puréeing food and feeding people through their assholes. There's a basic level of decency that they might not have but we do. Or should.

Hopefully he will forgive my sins.

He would also frown upon pulling the trigger on someone invading my home but I can't say that would make me hesitate.

 

[Bluto]

Hopefully he will forgive my sins.

He would also frown upon pulling the trigger on someone invading my home but I can't say that would make me hesitate.

Must be tough fending off all those crazy Jihadis that are kicking down doors in North Carolina.

 

[GoldenDomer]

Must be tough fending off all those crazy Jihadis that are kicking down doors in North Carolina.

Not Muslims. Anyone who put my family in danger. I'm just talking about things Jesus would not condone, but that it wouldn't change my course of action.

 

[GoldenDomer]

Must be tough fending off all those crazy Jihadis that are kicking down doors in North Carolina.

I'm actually not sure why you mentioned Muslims. I condone the treatment discussed in the report on anyone who wants to kill/behead my countrymen. Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc.

Your response was quite silly.

 

[Grahambo]

Must be tough fending off all those crazy Jihadis that are kicking down doors in North Carolina.

There are plenty of known terrorists within the US so I wouldn't make light of it.