Theology

NorthDakota

Grandson of Loomis
Messages
15,701
Reaction score
5,998
Never...would I have thought the theology thread here would accuse JPII and Benedict of heresy. Frank, I could see it I guess. He makes me uneasy, I just generally chalk it up to liberal media taking his words out of context though.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

A man gotta have a code
Messages
9,358
Reaction score
5,352
Never...would I have thought the theology thread here would accuse JPII and Benedict of heresy. Frank, I could see it I guess. He makes me uneasy, I just generally chalk it up to liberal media taking his words out of context though.

Ha ha, agreed. Pope Benedict XVI was as "Orthodox" as they come (and I loved him for it). I've seen a number of liberal-leaning people denounce him but this has to be the first time I've seen someone denounce him as too liberal(heretical).
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
I don't think persecution or being subject to secular rulers is a knock against the Church though. I hardly think Christ came to set up an imperial papacy. "Render unto Caesar" fits in pretty nicely with the Orthodox idea of Symphonia, but that is the ideal. The real world doesn't always play out that way.

It absolutely is. The EO concept of symphonia easily deforms in caesaropapism; there are many examples of this throughout Byzantine history, and that the Russian Orthodox Church currently serves as the handmaid of the Russian state is further evidence of this fact. The Roman political ideal, Gelasian dyarchy, has no such issues.

In what way? The energy/essence distinction is the only way to not end up with bizarre theories like created grace and the only way creation can have and authentic connection wit the Creator. Mankind can partake in God's energies, but never His Essence. God's Essence is fundamentally unknowable and unattainable to humanity. Absolute divine simplicity is bunk.

We're not gonna settle this dispute here (and certainly not by hand-waving away Aquinas as "bunk"). There are ways to interpret Palamas that are fully congruent with orthodox Trinitarian theology, which the Eastern Catholics do just fine. And then there are ways to interpret Palamas that are not, which the anti-Roman derangement of the Eastern schismatics leads them to reflexively adopt.

Well historically the West devastated during the Fourth Crusade. Western Crusaders raped nuns, killed priests, pillaged Christian territory, overthrew Orthodox bishops, and installed Roman puppets.

The Fourth Crusade was a tragedy, because it likely destroyed any chance there was of healing the Great Schism. But when Innocent III called for it, its only goal was retaking Jerusalem, and his bull included a solemn ban on attaching Christian states. He condemned the sacking of Constantinople in the strongest possible language, and JPII apologized for it multiple times. It was in no way planned or endorsed by the Roman Church; it was primarily driven by the trade rivalry between Venice and Byzantine.

Also, Roman Catholicism is the largest and most powerful religious institution in the world and is responsible for numerous theological and philosophical errors that plague modern Christianity.

Says who? You're memeing yourself into Protestantism, icky.

Plus, Rome makes no secret about their ambitions in the east. A stated goal of the Fatima cultists (of which I was one not so long ago) is the consecration of Russia to the "Immaculate Heart" of Mary and the submission of Moscow (thought by many Orthodox to be the "3rd Rome") to the papacy.

I'll agree that the worlds of nihilism and Protestantism are rocky roads indeed. With that said Rome is in chaos and the last 3-4 popes have teetered between instability and outright heresy. JPII prayed with Muslims and Jews and partook in pagan Hindu rituals. Benedict prayed with Muslims and Jews. And Francis...well...enough said.

I've seen an increasing number of right-leaning Catholics turning away from Rome and toward schismatic Russian and Greek sects recently because those churches seem to be more politically "based" than Catholicism; which may be true, but it's also a shitty way to determine the truth. I assume you'd sneer at a Catholic who left the Church for Episcopalianism because the latter more closely conforms to his political stances on contraception and SSM, right? Leaving Rome for Moscow is no different; just in the opposite direction.

There is nothing true, good or beautiful in Russian or Greek Orthodoxy that does not find fuller and more perfect expression in the Eastern Catholic Churches. So if you find yourself drawn to the beauty of their liturgy (and God knows they've done a better job of avoiding liturgical abuse than the Latins over the last 50 years), Palamas, the Jesus Prayer, the Greek fathers, etc. then by all means, start attending an Eastern Rite parish! Switching rites requires permission from your current bishop, but it's not very difficult to obtain.

Breaking communion with Rome would likely be one of the most fateful decisions you'll ever make. So please do your research. You've clearly been reading some very biased polemics by EO authors. As I've mentioned previously, their anti-Romanism consumes them and twists their theology in ways that, without the guidance of the magisterium or Pope, they have no way of correcting. At least read Fortescue and check out a local Byzantine Rite Catholic Church before you decide.
 

Domina Nostra

Well-known member
Messages
6,251
Reaction score
1,388
Never...would I have thought the theology thread here would accuse JPII and Benedict of heresy. Frank, I could see it I guess. He makes me uneasy, I just generally chalk it up to liberal media taking his words out of context though.

Ha ha, agreed. Pope Benedict XVI was as "Orthodox" as they come (and I loved him for it). I've seen a number of liberal-leaning people denounce him but this has to be the first time I've seen someone denounce him as too liberal(heretical).

Here are my two cents.

Catholic's believe that God revealed Himself and His plan in ways that are comprehensible, but that doesn't mean that they are always explained correctly or well. After the original Creeds were formulated, the clearest statements were most often about what the Church knew was wrong, not about what She knew was right.

"Orthodox" means to correct belief. It's one thing to talk about Orthodoxy in terms of professing a set Creeds or condemning certain formulated doctrines (anathemas), but it is extremely hard to assess orthodoxy when you are talking about a person's personal worldview or philosophical framework.

So when we say someone is "orthodox," what we usually mean is that they have a deep desire to remain close to the heart of the Church, and to teach its doctrine without error, and demonstrate that by not deviating from the Church's perpetual teachings on faith and morals.

In that more subjective sense, I've rarely heard anyone question Pope Benedict's or Pope John Paul II's orthodoxy. Some would argue that they were both were saints. JPII has already been canonized.

But both Benedict and JPII were also men, champions really, of the "Vatican II" project of totally overhauling the Church to make it more comprehensible to "modern man" (as that concept existed in the mid-20th century--in many ways, modern man is already a relic of the past). That project was not the intention of John XXII in calling the councill (as the original schema make perfectly clear), and many champions of the Church would not have supported it because of its various philosophical foundations. As time went on, by Benedict's clear admission, the reform they started did not at all bear the fruit that was envisioned by those like Ratzinger, Wojtyla, and their allies. They claim it was highjacked. Others think they just didn't understand the forces they put in motion.

But the point is, just because these were holy men with the best of intentions, do we have to say that all the things those men did and taught and thought were correct? That their ideas were always wise and timely, and never errors made in good faith? Does it bother you that we don't even say that about Augustine or Aquinas or St. Francis?

Personally, I think Benedict was a great man, a great theologian, and a great gift to the Church when he came. I love him and will always be in debt to him. But I also think that he, JPII, and a lot of his allies, were very presumptuous about their ability to re-make the Church's mission, liturgy, and philosophical framework from scratch. As a result, they played a significant role in making the mess that we have in the Church right now.

No doubt we would just have had another, different kind of mess had they not done what they did, but that is an argument for a different day. I would never call into question JPII's or Benedict's intentions, but I think they were clearly wrong about some key issues. Hindsight is 20/20!
 
Last edited:

ickythump1225

New member
Messages
4,036
Reaction score
323
It absolutely is. The EO concept of symphonia easily deforms in caesaropapism; there are many examples of this throughout Byzantine history, and that the Russian Orthodox Church currently serves as the handmaid of the Russian state is further evidence of this fact. The Roman political ideal, Gelasian dyarchy, has no such issues.
This rests on a postmodern/liberal assumption that Russia is a boogeyman. I also don't view Kirill as being subject to the Russian state. I think the Russian church and state have a pretty good overall working relationship.

We're not gonna settle this dispute here (and certainly not by hand-waving away Aquinas as "bunk"). There are ways to interpret Palamas that are fully congruent with orthodox Trinitarian theology, which the Eastern Catholics do just fine. And then there are ways to interpret Palamas that are not, which the anti-Roman derangement of the Eastern schismatics leads them to reflexively adopt.
You cannot shoehorn Western divine simplicity and that comes from that (created grace being a big example) with the Energy/Essence distinction. Not in an intellectually honest fashion anyways. I mean, you could do it, it would just be an exercise in cognitive dissonance or intellectual dishonesty.


Says who? You're memeing yourself into Protestantism, icky.
Protestantism is the child of Catholicism. Western Christianity (Catholic and Protestant) rest on the same theological and philosophical assumptions about absolute divine simplicity, created grace, legalistic view of salvation, and a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of sin.

I've seen an increasing number of right-leaning Catholics turning away from Rome and toward schismatic Russian and Greek sects recently because those churches seem to be more politically "based" than Catholicism; which may be true, but it's also a shitty way to determine the truth. I assume you'd sneer at a Catholic who left the Church for Episcopalianism because the latter more closely conforms to his political stances on contraception and SSM, right? Leaving Rome for Moscow is no different; just in the opposite direction.
That'd be cool if that was why I was doing this. I've tasted the full gamut of Catholic waters and found them shallow and wanting. I started out in a liberal Novus Ordo parish in suburban Minnesota. From there I've attended "conservative" N.O. parishes, been a full fledged member of a FSSP parish, and even attended sede parishes. Western Christian traditions are dying a slow death. The leadership of damn near every Western Christian tradition has fully imbibed modernism.

That is to say nothing of the Vatican I invention of the imperial super-pope who reigns supreme over all. There is nothing in the Church Fathers to suggest Peter was a lord and king over all other bishops.
There is nothing true, good or beautiful in Russian or Greek Orthodoxy that does not find fuller and more perfect expression in the Eastern Catholic Churches. So if you find yourself drawn to the beauty of their liturgy (and God knows they've done a better job of avoiding liturgical abuse than the Latins over the last 50 years), Palamas, the Jesus Prayer, the Greek fathers, etc. then by all means, start attending an Eastern Rite parish! Switching rites requires permission from your current bishop, but it's not very difficult to obtain.

Breaking communion with Rome would likely be one of the most fateful decisions you'll ever make. So please do your research. You've clearly been reading some very biased polemics by EO authors. As I've mentioned previously, their anti-Romanism consumes them and twists their theology in ways that, without the guidance of the magisterium or Pope, they have no way of correcting. At least read Fortescue and check out a local Byzantine Rite Catholic Church before you decide.
Eastern Catholicism is an adventure in cognitive dissonance. At some point that house of cards will come tumbling down. You are literally only attending it because the liturgy is prettier. It's a shiny veneer over the same theological and philosophical presuppositions.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
This rests on a postmodern/liberal assumption that Russia is a boogeyman. I also don't view Kirill as being subject to the Russian state. I think the Russian church and state have a pretty good overall working relationship.

Spare me. The Soviet Union was truly an evil empire, but modern Russia is a totally different story. Their economy is smaller than the state of California's, and their nuclear arsenal is the only reason they remain a player in world geopolitics. I've argued against alarmism over Russia in the foreign policy threads here consistently over the years.

That said, it doesn't matter whether Putin is another Stalin or Peter the Great reincarnated. Christian patriarchs shouldn't be under the thumb of secular rulers because it compromises their mission. And there are mountains of evidence pointing to the ROC's current lack of autonomy.

You cannot shoehorn Western divine simplicity and that comes from that (created grace being a big example) with the Energy/Essence distinction. Not in an intellectually honest fashion anyways. I mean, you could do it, it would just be an exercise in cognitive dissonance or intellectual dishonesty.

Palamas did all his writing in the 14th century, 300 years after the Great Schism. And there were 1,000 years of shared saints and theology prior to that. This rhetoric about Aquinas and Palamas being completely incompatible is schismatic nonsense pushed by Orthodox for whom anti-Romanism is their main motivation. They can be reconciled. And the irreconcilable interpretations pushed by the guys you're apparently reading don't just contradict Aquinas, but foundational ecumenical councils that the ROC supposedly puts great stock in. Thus my point about the danger of anti-Roman derangement.

That'd be cool if that was why I was doing this. I've tasted the full gamut of Catholic waters and found them shallow and wanting. I started out in a liberal Novus Ordo parish in suburban Minnesota. From there I've attended "conservative" N.O. parishes, been a full fledged member of a FSSP parish, and even attended sede parishes.

Give me a break. A little parish shopping means you've "tasted the full gamut" of the foundation of Western civilization with over 2,000 years of tradition?

Western Christian traditions are dying a slow death. The leadership of damn near every Western Christian tradition has fully imbibed modernism.

You clearly haven't read deeply in the Catholic tradition, but it seems you have swallowed uncritically the Myth of the Holy Rus. The Western traditions you've been trashing are in far better shape than the ROC in Putin's Russia:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">when people act like russia is some kind of traditionalist orthodox bastion, resisting western degeneracy. <a href="https://t.co/LndchF4rnw">pic.twitter.com/LndchF4rnw</a></p>— ahnqir (@ahnqir) <a href="https://twitter.com/ahnqir/status/949476233007398912?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 6, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I think your most serious error is in exaggerating the crisis currently facing the Church. Here's Cardinal Newman on the subject:

In the times of Arianism the great men of the Church thought things too bad to last. So did Pope Gregory at the end of the 7th century; St. Romuald in the 11th; afterwards St. Vincent Ferrer, and I think Savonarola-and so on to our time.

The whole course of Christianity from the first...is but one series of troubles and disorders. Every century is like every other, and to those who live in it seems worse than all times before it. The Church is ever ailing...Religion seems ever expiring, schisms dominant, the light of truth dim, its adherents scattered. The cause of Christ is ever in its last agony.

It has always been like this. Leaving the Church because some eastern schismatics seem better positioned to denounce the problems of your own culture would be a serious mistake, not least of all because the situation within those churches is even more dire.

Eastern Catholicism is an adventure in cognitive dissonance. At some point that house of cards will come tumbling down. You are literally only attending it because the liturgy is prettier. It's a shiny veneer over the same theological and philosophical presuppositions.

As I mentioned in my first response to you, the only thing formally separating the ROC from Rome is their refusal to recognize the universal jurisdiction of the Pope. Most of the Eastern Catholic Churches unified in the 1500s by recognizing it. They are governed sui juris, with their own canons and laws, and express encouragement from Rome to preserve their own ancient traditions.

The Russians and Greeks could do the same thing tomorrow, but they won't, because they're too politically invested in maintaining the schism. No cognitive dissonance necessary, unless you buy into the incompatibility being pushed (for political reasons) by the anti-Romanists. I think it'd be a grave mistake to declare yourself an enemy of the See of the Peter.
 

zelezo vlk

Well-known member
Messages
18,010
Reaction score
5,049
Oh, I forgot to mention. On my way down to Fredericksburg this past Saturday, I passed by a sign for a church whose name I'm pretty sure is just "Church: )"
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
I didn't post it at the time, but did anybody else catch the letter that Benedict XVI had published in an Italian newspaper last week?

I am moved that so many readers of your paper want to know how I am spending this last period of my life. In this regard, I can only say that, as my physical strength slowly wanes, interiorly I am on a pilgrimage towards Home. It is a great blessing for me to be surrounded, on this last stretch of the way, which sometimes is a bit exhausting, by such love and kindness as I could never have imagined. Along these lines, I also consider your readers’ request as a form of accompaniment along a stretch of the road. That’s why I cannot but thank them, and assure you all of my prayers.

"A pilgrimage towards Home," capital-H, has to be the simplest and most beautiful description of death and dying I've ever read. I teared up the first time I read this and it's getting to me even now.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

A man gotta have a code
Messages
9,358
Reaction score
5,352
I didn't post it at the time, but did anybody else catch the letter that Benedict XVI had published in an Italian newspaper last week?



"A pilgrimage towards Home," capital-H, has to be the simplest and most beautiful description of death and dying I've ever read. I teared up the first time I read this and it's getting to me even now.

Yep, Pope Benedict was a baws and I was terribly distraught when I heard he was "stepping down".

People can wring their hands about his involvement with Vatican II but he did everything in his power to reverse the momentum. He's one of the big reasons I became Catholic, his writing was so beautiful and his explanations so deep, thorough and clear, I couldn't help but convert.

Apologies to Sts Augustine, Aquinas, Ambrose, many of the Church fathers and modern Catholic authors like Scott Hahn, Dr. Brant Pitre and Peter Kreeft who also helped guide me on my search.
 

zelezo vlk

Well-known member
Messages
18,010
Reaction score
5,049
Yep, Pope Benedict was a baws and I was terribly distraught when I heard he was "stepping down".

People can wring their hands about his involvement with Vatican II but he did everything in his power to reverse the momentum. He's one of the big reasons I became Catholic, his writing was so beautiful and his explanations so deep, thorough and clear, I couldn't help but convert.

Apologies to Sts Augustine, Aquinas, Ambrose, many of the Church fathers and modern Catholic authors like Scott Hahn, Dr. Brant Pitre and Peter Kreeft who also helped guide me on my search.

Love Papa Benny. Benny is bae, and I should live that by reading his writings this Lent
 

ickythump1225

New member
Messages
4,036
Reaction score
323
Whether Orthodox theology as elucidated by St. Gregory Palamas can be reconciled with Aquinas and whether Thomism as applied by the church at large over the past few centuries can be reconciled with the historic Christian theology are two separate questions.

The energy/essence distinction is irreconcilable with Thomist theology as laid out in the West. Created grace and absolute divine simplicity cannot be reconciled with historic Christian theology. Thomism is unrecognizable to the Church Fathers.

Orthodox theology and praxis remains relatively unchanged in 2000 years. Catholicism and Western Christianity cannot make that claim. Catholicism has gone a wholesale revolution in the past 50 years. The imperial super-pope that would emerge out of Vatican I wouldn't be recognizable to the average Catholic clergyman 1000 years ago. The "See of Peter" has undergone quite a radical revolution and evolution over the past 1-2 centuries.

You're also conflating a nation's relative righteousness with the truthfulness of their dominate religion. The Truth remains the Truth even if no one follows it. Russian debauchery doesn't negate the truthfulness of Orthodoxy. For as much as you whine about "anti-Romanism" your stereotypical Catholic sneering triumphalist attitude towards Orthodoxy seems to stem from some deep seated anti-Russianism.

By the way my "little parish shopping" was attending numerous parishes in 4 states over an 11 year period that included reading several Catholic apologists and having continuing dialogue with several priests in various different Catholic sects (Novus Ordo, FSSP, and CMRI). This is on top of all of the studying I did to convert to Catholicism.

As for Eastern Catholicism, it's just Greeks who got swindled by Latins. It has become a haven for Catholics who intuit that something is wrong but don't have the courage or introspection to find the root of the cause.
18620147_1702135446471071_5375718167187166553_n.jpg
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
Orthodox theology and praxis remains relatively unchanged in 2000 years.

What about divorce and contraception? Rome is virtually the only denomination still holding the line on the traditional doctrine now that the EO have caved under "oikonomia".

The "See of Peter" has undergone quite a radical revolution and evolution over the past 1-2 centuries.

It's true that the "Spirit of Vatican II" has resulted in widespread liturgical abuse. The tide seems to be turning against it, so I expect much of it will die off with the Boomers who inflicted it upon us in the first place. The Church has come through far worse crises in the past.

You're also conflating a nation's relative righteousness with the truthfulness of their dominate religion. The Truth remains the Truth even if no one follows it. Russian debauchery doesn't negate the truthfulness of Orthodoxy. For as much as you whine about "anti-Romanism" your stereotypical Catholic sneering triumphalist attitude towards Orthodoxy seems to stem from some deep seated anti-Russianism.

I'll happily give the ROC credit for maintaining liturgical integrity better than the Latins have over the last 50 years. And I'm not Russophobic in the least. As I mentioned previously, I frequently argue against anti-Russian alarmism in the foreign policy threads here. My point is that the ROC has at least as many problems as the Roman church does. Leaving because the grass seems greener over there is a mistake.

As for Eastern Catholicism, it's just Greeks who got swindled by Latins. It has become a haven for Catholics who intuit that something is wrong but don't have the courage or introspection to find the root of the cause.

If you don't feel scandalized by the schism, I don't know what to say to you. The Pauline letters make it quite clear that the Church, as the Body of Christ, is meant to be "one". The fact that it's not--that there are holy, catholic and apostolic churches not in communion with Rome--undermines the witness and hinders the mission of both churches. I've never met a Roman Catholic who does not deeply regret the schism, but there are lots of EO who have nothing but vitriol toward Rome whenever the subject comes up. That doesn't strike me as a properly Christian response to what is obviously a tragic state of affairs.

In any case, it doesn't seem like this exchange can continue productively anymore. I'll pray for you, icky, and I truly wish you the best. Thanks for engaging with me.
 

ickythump1225

New member
Messages
4,036
Reaction score
323
I know I can come across abrupt but I truly don't mean it Whiskey. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know everything about history or theology. You are clearly very knowledgeable and gave me a lot to think about. The Schism is a tragedy and I'm certainly aware that many on both sides (the EO and even me, Lord have mercy, included) do not have a very charitable attitude especially online. It's a symptom of our darkened nous and the fallen state we live in.

May you have a productive Lenten season in preparation for Pascha.
 

ickythump1225

New member
Messages
4,036
Reaction score
323
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Introduction to Christianity pg 279- Ratzinger admits the first millennium of the church did not operate on a Vatican I style ex cathedra basis. It was a later development! Admits EO view for ecumenism lol <a href="https://t.co/5eagaKnWxv">pic.twitter.com/5eagaKnWxv</a></p>— Jay Dyer (@Jay_D007) <a href="https://twitter.com/Jay_D007/status/964926946391052288?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 17, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Sebastiano Ricci - The Fall of the Rebel Angels (c.1720) <a href="https://t.co/Un3sgWqRAr">pic.twitter.com/Un3sgWqRAr</a></p>— rebecca (@romepix) <a href="https://twitter.com/romepix/status/967267896064991233?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 24, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Michael the Archangel art is the best art.
 

zelezo vlk

Well-known member
Messages
18,010
Reaction score
5,049
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Sebastiano Ricci - The Fall of the Rebel Angels (c.1720) <a href="https://t.co/Un3sgWqRAr">pic.twitter.com/Un3sgWqRAr</a></p>— rebecca (@romepix) <a href="https://twitter.com/romepix/status/967267896064991233?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 24, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Michael the Archangel art is the best art.

The Pietà begs to differ
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
Pat Smith posted an article titled "Before a parting of ways" on his blog Semiduplex earlier this week:

At Mere Orthodoxy last week, Jake Meador wrote a piece about “The Parting of Ways Among Younger Christians.” Despite being a protestant, Meador has followed Catholics’ discussions of integralism and liberalism fairly closely and is, unlike some other protestants, a fairly sympathetic observer. Meador is commenting upon a note by Alan Jacobs about the recent blowup over the Mortara case—particularly Fr. Romanus Cessario’s First Things essay defending Bl. Pius IX. Meador’s piece is well worth reading—Jacobs’s is not: it’s another entry in the genre of essays wondering how First Things could be so unecumenical as to publish a Catholic priest defending Catholic doctrine—not least because Meador sees this as the end (or nearly the end) of the ecumenical project of Catholics and some protestants working together. That is, as Catholics and various kinds of protestants explore their own traditions, there will be fewer and fewer ecumenical projects. Meador is not (at least he does not seem) brokenhearted by this. However, others may be.

We won’t waste your time by quoting from Jacobs’s piece at length. However, he is clearly hysterical at the prospect of a First Things in the hands of Roman Catholics who believe what the Church of Rome teaches. His overheated reaction is very understandable. For a long time, First Things represented one of the places where Catholics and some protestants met on grounds of broad agreement to defend a vision of liberalism against the encroachments of another vision of liberalism. What Jacobs does not understand—and what Meador understands very well—is that young Catholics, including young Catholics who write for First Things, have begun the laborious process of recovering the Church’s anti-liberal tradition. What this means is that some writers are less committed to any vision of liberalism, which has serious implications for the project altogether. However, other regular contributors, like George Weigel, remain as committed as ever, as near as we can tell, to the old First Things vision. Meador understands that, as the Church’s anti-liberal tradition is recovered, as it must be, the ecumenism made possible by the Church’s engagement with liberalism at the Second Vatican Council and its reception, especially by American conservatives under the guidance of St. John Paul II, becomes less possible.

Meador is not wrong to call this a parting of the ways. But before this parting of the ways, it is necessary, we think, to consider where we are and what the possible paths forward are. In short, Catholics are grappling with liberalism, the disastrous effects of which are on display in almost every walk of life, and the debate over liberalism is directly effecting the ability of Catholics to participate in ecumenical projects. There are two modes of engaging with liberalism in the Church today. One, inspired broadly by the Second Vatican Council, seeks to preserve the liberalism of the years immediately following the Second World War. This group has historically found much in common with protestants and those of non-Christian faiths, and it has historically sought to form broad coalitions aimed at preserving the “good liberalism” of the 1950s and 1960s. The other, inspired broadly by the Church’s preconciliar teaching, seeks to look beyond liberalism. Therefore, these Catholics tend to be more suspicious of ecumenical projects, especially, as Meador notes, the indifferentist aspects of ecumenical projects. Moreover, they are not nearly so interested in reestablishing the liberal consensus of the 1950s and 1960s. The fundamental tension between the two groups, we think, comes from the ongoing debate within the Church about the Second Vatican Council.

I.

Fifty-two years and counting after the close of the Council, Catholics can question whether the Church’s engagement with liberalism worked. The enthusiastic opening to the postwar order contained, more or less, in Gaudium et spes, Dignitatis humanae, and Nostra aetate, among other documents, did not deepen the dialogue between the Church and the world. It resulted in liberalism receiving dogmatic status in the Church. Perhaps this would not have been the worst thing, if liberalism had remained what it was in the 1950s and early 1960s. Certainly we see in sources as disparate as Ross Douthat and the Paris Statement, signed by such luminaries as Ryszard Legutko, Pierre Manent, Roger Scruton, and Robert Spaemann, a desire to return to that initial postwar liberalism. In other words, for these thinkers, there was a moment before—let us call it the Moment Before—liberalism went wrong. If the slide can be arrested and the order reset to that moment, then the faults of liberalism will disappear. It follows, we think, that under such a notion, the Church’s engagement with liberalism is only contingently imprudent.

As we say, the Council and the major documents of the Council are at the very center of this discussion. Here, the Villanova Church historian and social-media genius Massimo Faggioli’s Twitter feed is essential reading. He argues, we think, that various Council documents, especially Dignitatis humanae, are clearly corrections of the Church’s prior illiberal teachings. In his view, the Council plainly brought the Church in line with postwar liberal democracy. To insist upon a more traditionalist reading of the Council documents, a reading that begins but does not end with Benedict XVI’s hermeneutic of continuity, in Faggioli’s mind, is to challenge the Church’s commitment to liberal democracy. Indeed, to insist that Pius IX’s Quanta cura and Syllabus remain valid teachings, along with Leo XIII’s Immortale Dei, Libertas, and Diuturnum, and Pius XI’s Quadragesimo anno, is to come very near to what Faggioli somewhat breathlessly calls “Catholic fascism.” (That Pius XI also issued Non abbiamo bisogno and Mit brennender Sorge does not seem to figure much in Faggioli’s calculations.) In other words, the more political pronouncements of the Council and liberalism are inextricably linked, pull at one thread and the whole seamless garment, if you’ll excuse the joke, comes apart.

Now, there are problems with the anti-liberal argument that has Faggioli so panicked, which both traditionalists and alarmed liberals need to consider carefully. Notably, they need to consider what Leo XIII’s ralliement policy, as outlined in Au milieu des sollicitudes, means for the Church’s anti-liberal posture in the 19th and early 20th century. Obviously, the ralliement policy came off the rails during St. Pius X’s pontificate, as Vehementer nos shows. But it is not enough to say that practically Leo’s initiative failed. The implications for ralliement in the context of Leo’s anti-liberal thought ought to be considered carefully. The pope of Immortale Dei is the pope of Au milieu des sollicitudes, and the nature of the French Third Republic was well known to Leo. Yet Leo urged Catholics to support the Third Republic. Whether ralliement is enough to complicate the Church’s anti-liberal doctrine significantly is an open question. We have our doubts, but we are also not hugely interested in avoiding the Church’s anti-liberal doctrine.

At any rate, a great debate could be had about Faggioli’s point, though Bishop Bernard Fellay of the SSPX is no doubt pleased to hear a prominent progressive theologian concede Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre’s point. Nevertheless, this is another reason why the furor over Fr. Romanus Cessario’s First Things article about the Mortara case reached such a fever pitch. Cessario’s argument is clearly drawn from the tradition of the Church and—despite Nathaniel Peters’s valiant effort to mention only about half of the essential Thomistic sources—is essentially unanswerable. As such, it serves as a sort of confirmation of liberals’ deep fear that the openness to liberalism that Catholics have shown is not much older than 1965 and is not broadly supported in the tradition of the Church. In other words, there is a sense that if the Catholics start poking around too much in their tradition, if they start looking behind the copy of the documents of Vatican II on their bookshelves, they will find teachings incompatible with liberalism. Indeed, they will find that the Church, within living memory, was squarely opposed to liberalism. It will be impossible to articulate a Catholic vision of the search for the Moment Before when Catholics figure out that the Church taught, until fairly recently, that there was no Moment Before.

A couple of observations. First, the idea of the Moment Before has profited Catholics almost nothing. Despite fifty years of explanations of how Catholicism and the Bill of Rights in the federal Constitution are entirely reconcilable, every major social decision has gone against the Church. From Roe to Obergefell, the engagement of Catholics with the liberal American order has resulted in defeat after defeat. The American bishops have, in the face of increasingly draconian “anti-discrimination” laws, mounted a last stand on “religious liberty,” but it is unclear whether this battle will result in some breathing room for the Church. The idea of a Moment Before seems to involve resetting the clock, so to speak, to right before Catholics started losing all these important political and legal contests. However, it is only infrequently mentioned that these political and legal contests were fought and lost during a period when the Church was enthusiastically engaged in the liberal American order. In other words, the Church, inspired by the approach mapped out at the Second Vatican Council, was actively participating in and, more important, supporting American political life—and it still lost the debates. To put it another way, the idea of a Moment Before involves returning to the conditions that produced the current state of affairs.

Second, the tension between Catholic liberals searching for a liberalism that is truly liberalism and Catholic integralists delving into the Church’s anti-liberal tradition is inevitable. We have seen that everyone agrees, more or less, that liberalism and the Council are inextricably linked. Everyone also agrees that we are in the process of receiving, as they say, the teachings, such as they are, of the Council. The debates over the Council within the Church are going to inevitably implicate the posture of Catholics toward liberalism. Catholics seeking a deeper understanding of tradition, particularly on the social question, have begun to look back beyond the Council into the teachings of Pius XII, Pius XI, St. Pius X, and Leo XIII in particular. And in those teachings, as we say, they have found the Church’s anti-liberal doctrine. Things get extremely sticky from that point.

II.

Things get stickiest along the lines Meador and Jacobs identify. If Catholics start receiving the political thought of the Church, it will turn out that the broad consensus represented by Evangelicals & Catholics Together was illusory. Or, more precisely, it was based entirely on the Church’s posture at the Council and in the wake of the Council, which was not the Church’s historical posture. What do we mean? Well, before the Council, the Church was opposed to liberalism, root and branch. There was no Moment Before when there was a good liberalism. There might be pragmatic reasons to temper active opposition to liberal regimes, such as the mortal peril of Marxism-Leninism in Europe. But in terms of liberalism simpliciter, the Church’s judgment was clear. The Council then did something—some might say it made a pragmatic judgment due to the mortal peril of Marxism-Leninism in Europe, some might say it corrected the earlier extremism of the popes—and opened itself up to liberalism. The agenda sketched out in Evangelicals & Catholics Together relies entirely on that openness insofar as the enthusiastic cooperation with the American order outlined in that document is enthusiastic cooperation with liberalism.

Other thinkers are challenging the idea of a Moment Before. Patrick Deneen’s book, Why Liberalism Failed, presents the idea—not a new one, necessarily—that the problems we see in the liberal order today are essentially baked into liberalism. Deneen’s book has brought out numerous responses, including an insightful review from Harvard law professor Adrian Vermeule at American Affairs. Building on an essay in First Things some time ago, Vermeule argues essentially that integralist Catholics ought to consider populating elite institutions and, occupying positions of power, use their authority “to further human dignity and the common good, defined entirely in substantive rather than procedural-technical terms.” Where Douthat and others would say that Christians must engage with the liberal order to return to the Moment Before, Vermeule seems to argue that, first, there is no Moment Before to return to, and, second, integralist Catholics must engage with the liberal order to supersede it.

There are superficial similarities between the two approaches. Neither Douthat nor Vermeule retreats into gated communities or enclaves of Holy (Russian) Orthodoxy in the bayou, as Rod Dreher sometimes suggests and sometimes denies suggesting. Indeed, in both men’s visions, you will see intelligent Christians educated at elite schools entering the service of the regime. Some will go into government, some will go into the institutions the government serves, like finance, and others will go back into elite schools to prepare the next wave. In time, perhaps not a very long time, you will see the regime get better. But this is where Vermeule and Douthat’s visions diverge sharply. At a certain point, Douthat and the signatories to the Paris Statement and those who agree with them will recognize their Moment Before. Liberalism is itself again, they will say. Vermeule will say, simply, that we are well on our way to our goal.

To a certain extent, evangelicals like Meador, concerned by the rise of integralism among intelligent Catholics, should cheer Vermeule’s strategy. For the moment, it provides a way that integralists can remain part of the broader Christian conversation in the United States. Vermeule urges integralist Catholics to engage and populate liberal institutions and—and this bit is important—simply discharge their duties according to human dignity and the common good. There is, at least at the outset, little for Meador to be concerned about with respect to the intolerant integralist Catholics. The Catholic confessional state that he spends as much time as anyone worrying about would not emerge overnight. It might not emerge for a long time. Until that point, it would be exactly the sort of activity that the signatories of Evangelicals & Catholics Together would want to see. However, we would be surprised if Meador—or, for that matter, Alan Jacobs—would cheer Vermeule’s strategy all that enthusiastically.
 

ickythump1225

New member
Messages
4,036
Reaction score
323
The striking phrase, “God is dead,” is the poetical expression of modern unbelief. Much is expressed in this phrase that is not to be found in the more prosaic expressions of modern atheism and agnosticism. A vivid contrast is established between a previous age when men believed in God and based their life and institutions upon Him, and a new age for whose inhabitants, supposedly, this once all-illuminating sun has been blotted out, and life and society must be given a new orientation.

The phrase, itself apparently coined by Nietzsche almost a century ago, was for long used to express the views of a comparatively few enemies of Christianity, chiefly “existentialists”; but recently it has caused controversy by being accepted in radical Protestant circles, and not it has become a concern of common journalism and the mass media. Clearly a responsive chord has been struck in Western society at large; the public interest in the “death of God” has made this phenomenon one of the signs of the times.

To understand what this sign means, one must know its historical context. By its very nature it is a negation–a reaction against the otherworldly Christian world view which emphasizes asceticism and the “unseen warfare” against the devil and the world in order to obtain eternal joy through communion with God in the Kingdom of Heaven. The founders of the new philosophy declared the Christian God “dead” and proclaimed man a god in His place. This view is merely the latest stage of the modern battle against Christianity which has resulted today in the virtually universal triumph of unbelief.
The Self-Liquidation of Christianity – Death To The World
 

zelezo vlk

Well-known member
Messages
18,010
Reaction score
5,049
It's Whiskey's favorite kind of tweet: the neckbeard takes on religion and how it sucks compared to ALMIGHTY SCIENCE!

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Why is science cool? The more we learn, the more humble we become and less we think we know. The exact opposite of religion, which is arrogant and foolish, thinking it knows all. <a href="https://t.co/BlCkbLJIlw">pic.twitter.com/BlCkbLJIlw</a></p>— Adam Singer (@AdamSinger) <a href="https://twitter.com/AdamSinger/status/972493304179773440?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 10, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126

Calls to mind a recent article by the NYT's Ross Douthat titled "Pope Francis is Beloved. His Papacy Might Be a Disaster.":

The conversation has become predictable. A friendly acquaintance — a neighbor, a fellow parent, our real estate agent — asks about my work. I say I’ve been writing a book about the pope, and the acquaintance smiles and nods and says “Isn’t he so wonderful?” or, “That must be an inspiring thing,” or, “I have a friend who would love to read it.” And then eventually I find myself saying, uncomfortably, “Well, they should know that it’s not entirely favorable.”

A pause, puzzled and slightly crestfallen. “But you’re writing about the nice pope?”

The consistency of these exchanges is a testament to the great achievement of Pope Francis’ five years on the papal throne. He leads a church that spent the prior decade embroiled in a grisly sex abuse scandal, occupies an office often regarded as a medieval relic, and operates in a media environment in which traditional religion generally, and Roman Catholicism especially, are often covered with a mix of cluelessness and malice.

And yet in a remarkably short amount of time — from the first days after his election, really — the former Jorge Bergoglio has made his pontificate a vessel for religious hopes that many of his admirers didn’t realize or remember that they had.

Some of this admiration reflects the specific controversies he’s stirred within the church, the theological risks he’s taken in pushing for changes that liberal Westerners tend to assume Catholicism must eventually accept — shifts on sexual morality above all, plus a general liberalization in the hierarchy and the church.

But when people say, “He makes me want to believe again,” as a lapsed-Catholic journalist said to me during one of these awkward “What do you have against Pope Francis?” conversations, they aren’t usually paying close attention to the battles between cardinals and theologians over whether his agenda is farsighted or potentially heretical. Nor are they focused on his governance of the Vatican, where Francis is a reformer without major reforms, and the promised cleanup may never actually materialize.

What my friends and acquaintances respond to from this pope, rather, is the iconography of his papacy — the vivid images of humility and Christian love he has created, from the foot-washing of prisoners to the embrace of the disfigured to the children toddling up to him in public events. Like his namesake of Assisi, the present pope has a great gift for gestures that offer a public imitatio Christi, an imitation of Christ. And the response from so many otherwise jaded observers is a sign of how much appeal there might yet be in Catholic Christianity, if it found a way to slip the knots that the modern world has tied around its message.

To be a critic of such a pope, then, is to occupy something like the position of George Orwell, who opened an essay on Mohandas Gandhi with the aphorism, “Saints should always be judged guilty until they are proved innocent.” Except that the pope’s most serious critics are not skeptics like Orwell who don’t actually believe in saints: They are faithful Catholics, for whom criticism of a pontiff is somewhat like the criticism of a father by his son. Which means they — we — are always at risk of finding in the mirror the self-righteous elder brother in Jesus’ parable of the prodigal son, who resents his father’s liberality, the welcome given to the younger brother coming home at last.

But it’s still a risk that needs to be taken — because to avoid criticizing Francis is to slight this pope’s importance, to fail to do justice to the breadth of his ambitions and purposes, his real historical significance, his clear position as the most important religious figure of our age.

Those ambitions and purposes are not the ones for which he was elected. The cardinals who chose Jorge Bergoglio envisioned him as the austere outsider.

But that kind of revolution hasn’t really happened. Vatican life is more unsettled than under Benedict XVI, the threat of firings or purges ever present, the power of certain offices reduced, the likelihood of a papal tongue-lashing increased. But the blueprints for reorganization have been put off; many ecclesial princes have found more power under Francis; and even the pope’s admirers joke about the “next year, next year …” attitude that informs discussions of reform.

Meanwhile, the pope’s response to the sex abuse scandal, initially energetic, now seems compromised by his own partiality and by corruption among his intimates. The last few months have been particularly ugly: Francis just spent a recent visit to Chile vehemently defending a bishop accused of turning a blind eye to sex abuse, while one of his chief advisers, the Honduran Cardinal Óscar Maradiaga, is accused of protecting a bishop charged with abusing seminarians even as the cardinal himself faces accusations of financial chicanery.

So the idea of this pope as a “great reformer,” to borrow the title of the English journalist Austen Ivereigh’s fine 2014 biography, can’t really be justified by any kind of Roman housekeeping. Instead Francis’ reforming energies have been directed elsewhere, toward two dramatic truces that would radically reshape the church’s relationship with the great powers of the modern world.

The first truce this pope seeks is in the culture war that everyone in Western society knows well — the conflict between the church’s moral teachings and the way that we live now, the struggle over whether the sexual ethics of the New Testament need to be revised or abandoned in the face of post-sexual revolution realities.

The papal plan for a truce is either ingenious or deceptive, depending on your point of view. Instead of formally changing the church’s teaching on divorce and remarriage, same-sex marriage, euthanasia — changes that are officially impossible, beyond the powers of his office — the Vatican under Francis is making a twofold move. First, a distinction is being drawn between doctrine and pastoral practice that claims that merely pastoral change can leave doctrinal truth untouched. So a remarried Catholic might take communion without having his first union declared null, a Catholic planning assisted suicide might still receive last rites beforehand, and perhaps eventually a gay Catholic can have her same-sex union blessed — and yet supposedly none of this changes the church’s teaching that marriage is indissoluble and suicide a mortal sin and same-sex wedlock an impossibility, so long as it’s always treated as an exception rather than a rule.

At the same time, Francis has allowed a tacit decentralization of doctrinal authority, in which different countries and dioceses can take different approaches to controversial questions. So in Germany, where the church is rich and sterile and half-secularized, the Francis era has offered a permission slip to proceed with various liberalizing moves, from communion for the remarried to intercommunion with Protestants — while across the Oder in Poland the bishops are proceeding as if John Paul II still sits upon the papal throne and his teaching is still fully in effect. The church’s approach to assisted suicide is traditional if you listen to the bishops of Western Canada, flexible and accommodating if you heed the bishops in Canada’s Maritime Provinces. In the United States, Francis’ appointees in Chicago and San Diego are taking the lead in promoting a “new paradigm” on sex and marriage, while more conservative archbishops from Philadelphia to Portland, Ore., are sticking with the old one. And so on.

These geographical divisions predate Francis, but unlike his predecessors he has blessed them, encouraged them and enabled would-be liberalizers to develop their ambitions further. In effect he is experimenting with a much more Anglican model for how the Catholic Church might operate — in which the church’s traditional teachings are available for use but not required, and different dioceses and different countries may gradually develop away from each other theologically and otherwise.

This experiment is the most important effort of his pontificate, but in the last year he has added a second one, seeking a truce not with a culture but with a regime: the Communist government in China. Francis wants a compromise with Beijing that would reconcile China’s underground Catholic Church, loyal to Rome, with the Communist-dominated “patriotic” Catholic Church. Such a reconciliation, if accomplished, would require the church to explicitly cede a share of its authority to appoint bishops to the Politburo — a concession familiar from medieval church-state tangles, but something the modern church has tried to leave behind.

A truce with Beijing would differ from the truce with the sexual revolution in that no specific doctrinal issue is at stake, and no one doubts that the pope has authority to conclude a concordat with a heretofore hostile and persecuting regime. Indeed, he is building on diplomatic efforts by his predecessors, though both of them declined to take the fraught step to a formal deal.

But the two truces are similar in that both would accelerate Catholicism’s transformation into a confederation of national churches — liberal and semi-Protestantized in northern Europe, conservative in sub-Saharan Africa, Communist-supervised in China. They are similar in that both treat the concerns of many faithful Catholics — conservative believers in the West, underground churchgoers in China — as roadblocks to the pope’s grand strategy. They are similar in that both have raised the specter of schism by pitting cardinals against cardinals and sometimes against the pope himself.

Above all, the two truces are similar in that they both risk a great deal — in one case, the consistency of Catholic doctrine and its fidelity to Jesus; in another, the clarity of Catholic witness for human dignity — for the sake of reconciling the church with earthly powers. And they take this risk at a time when neither Chinese Communism nor Western liberalism seem exactly like confident, resilient models for the human future — the former sliding back toward totalitarianism, the latter anxious and decadent and beset by populist revolts.

Which means that if these two bets go badly the Francis legacy will be judged harshly — in spite of his charisma, his effect on secular observers, and all the other elements of the “Francis effect.”

The risks of the Chinese gamble are already apparent in the weirdly sycophantic language that Francis’ allies have used toward the Communist regime, and their eagerness to reassure Beijing that unlike, say, American evangelicals, Rome would never take the threatening step of mixing religion and politics.

If current trends continue, China could have one of the world’s largest Christian populations by this century’s end, and this population is already heavily evangelical; indeed, the Vatican’s desire for a deal with Beijing is influenced by the fact that a divided Chinese Catholicism is being outcompeted for converts.

But if that deal permanently links the Roman church with a corrupt and fated regime, Francis will have ceded the moral authority earned by persecuted generations, and ceded the Chinese future to those Christian churches, evangelical especially, that are less eager to flatter and cajole their persecutors.

The gamble on an Anglican approach to faith and morals is even more high-risk — as Anglicanism’s own schisms well attest. The pope’s “new paradigm” has defused the immediate threat of schism by maintaining a studious ambiguity whenever challenged. But it will ensure that the church’s factions, already polarized and feuding, grow ever more apart. And it implies a rupture (or, if you favor it, a breakthrough) in the church’s understanding of how its teachings can and cannot change — one less dramatic in immediate effect than the reforms of the Second Vatican Council, but ultimately more far-reaching in its implications for Catholicism.

Francis’ inner circle is convinced that such a revolution is what the Holy Spirit wants — that the attempts by John Paul II and Benedict to maintain continuity between the church before and after Vatican II ended up choking off renewal.

They are right that the John Paul II paradigm was fraught with flaws and tensions; the ease with which Francis has reopened debates that conservatives considered closed has testified to that. But this pope has not just exposed tensions; he has heightened them, encouraging sweeping ambitions among his allies and pushing disillusioned conservatives toward traditionalism. Like certain imprudent medieval popes, Francis has pressed papal authority to its limits — theological this time, not temporal, but no less dangerous for that.

All of this makes for interesting copy for those of us who write about the church. Truces are unsatisfying and instability is exciting and theological civil wars can be worth waging. But there is no sign as yet that Francis’s liberalization is bringing his lapsed-Catholic admirers back to the pews; from Germany to Australia to his native Latin America, the church’s institutional decline continues. And sustaining a for-the-time-being Catholicism, as his immediate predecessors did, is not an achievement to be lightly dismissed. Whereas accelerating division when your office is charged with maintaining unity and continuity is a serious business — especially when the eventual resolution is so bafflingly difficult to envision or predict.

It is wise for Francis’ Catholic critics to temper our presumption, always, by acknowledging the possibility that we are misled or missing something, and that this story could end with this popular pope proven to be visionary and heroic.

But to choose a path that might have only two destinations — hero or heretic — is also an act of presumption, even for a pope. Especially for a pope.

Pray for the Church and Il Papa.
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
Calls to mind a recent article by the NYT's Ross Douthat titled "Pope Francis is Beloved. His Papacy Might Be a Disaster.":

Pray for the Church and Il Papa.
Thanks for sharing, I missed that one. I often wonder who Douthat's audience is when he writes about the Church. I'm grateful for it, but he's too much of a thinker for the masses and too much of a believer for the intelligentsia. He seems to be writing directly to about twenty people, ten of which are members of this forum.
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
I'm not sure where else to put this, but I figured Whiskey might get a kick out of it. I'm pretty sure I wear the same glasses as Elizabeth Bruenig.

a474bd40661b285cf6530957f778d450.jpg


97ceb8b234356da82d4014d18321800e.jpg


Warby Parker Durand in Deep Sea Blue Fade. I've been wearing them since September.
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
It's behind a paywall so I won't post it here, but Timothy Cardinal Dolan has an op-ed in the WSJ entitled "The Democrats Abandon Catholics."
 

NorthDakota

Grandson of Loomis
Messages
15,701
Reaction score
5,998
The Cardinal...love him. That was hard hitting.

Like an RKO from the top rope.
 
Last edited:

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
Here's an article in the Catholic Herald about Arnaud Beltrame, a French Catholic police officer who volunteered to take the place of a female hostage during a terrorist attack in Trebes last week. He died of his wounds on Saturday. His marriage was sacramentally convalidated before he died in his wife's arms. Hero:

skynews-france-terror-arnaud-beltrame_4263523-800x500.jpg


Here's a recent blog post by Rick Yoder (@AmishCatholic) about a variety of topics:

John also captures the essence of the new, young Traditionalism:

Delving beyond the contemporary face of Catholicism, I was able to re-discover Tradition- not through EWTN or Rorate Caeli, nor through PrayTell or Crux, but rather through a true experience of the sacred liturgy, prayer, and study.

A future church historian will take that line as summative of the entire experience of a generation. The only thing I would add is that in my own case, as with many others, beauty was the central thing. Community, tradition, stability, a sense of history; all these are goods that the Church offers her children. But it was supernatural beauty that captured my imagination and led me to a genuine encounter with the Living God. The Church has the chance to re-present that “beauty ever ancient, ever new” each week at the Mass. It is Christ Himself in the Eucharist who will convert the world. Not our misbegotten, if earnest, attempts to plan out the advance of His Kingdom. If anything, we too often get in His way.

typsedia.jpg

And here's an article by First Things' Matthew Schmitz titled "What Young Catholics Want":

Several French dioceses, seeking to promote their 2018 fundraising drive, had a few young Catholics take a selfie with a young priest. It was the perfect marketing image of diverse, democratic youth—but for one problem. The priest wore a cassock. This long black garment, with its thirty-three buttons, is favored by young priests who have made it the uniform of resurgent tradition. It is the symbol of what young Catholics are, and of what older Catholics don’t want them to be.

Three of the dioceses issued a doctored photo in which the priest appears to be wearing blue jeans. His cassock buttons, representing the years of Christ’s life, were airbrushed away. With a little manipulation, the authorities produced an image of youth acceptable to the old.

Something similar occurred this week at the Vatican, where three hundred youths selected by silver-haired bishops were asked to tell those bishops what young people really want. They were charged with drafting a working document, which the bishops will consult at the Synod on Youth, scheduled for October. In an opening address to this pre-synodal meeting, Pope Francis said he hoped the event would lead to “a church with a young face.” But the result is a botched plastic surgery, a grotesquerie of old ideas stretched and reshaped to mimic youth.

The document is supposed to have been written by young Catholics for the benefit of bishops, but it eerily repeats what certain bishops have long been saying. For instance, the “youths” declare: “Sometimes, in the Church, it is hard to overcome the logic of ‘it has always been done this way.’” But at the opening of the meeting, Francis had said the same thing: “You provoke us to break free of the logic of ‘it has always been done this way.” This is not a dialogue; it is an echo.

This makes the document significant—and unsettling. The document manifests an aversion to whatever is sacred, holy, divine. It laments that “sometimes we feel that the sacred appears to be something separated from our daily lives.” But that is the precisely the meaning of the word “sacred”—that which is set apart.

Sanctity is slyly disparaged. “Sadly, not all of us believe sainthood is something achievable and that it is a path to happiness,” the authors say—and they seem to include themselves among the doubters. They believe that “erroneous ideals of model Christians feel out of reach to the average person.” What the youth want instead is “a confidant without judgement.” Erring people are held up as the real models of faith, as though Mary’s sinlessness made her distant and cold.

Priesthood and religious life are also deflated. “While these are sacred calls that should be celebrated,” the document wants us to realize the importance of other vocations, including “lay ministry,” “marriage and family,” and something called “role in society.” Passive-aggressive comments on women’s role in the Church reflect the general bias (“There are great examples of women serving in consecrated religious communities and in lay leadership roles. However…”) After all, if the cloister holds no honor, shouldn’t women want more? If the priesthood is not something set apart and given definite shape, why keep women from it?

Christian morality is likewise called into question. The document asks the Church to open a discussion of homosexuality and gender, “which young people are already freely discussing without taboo.” (In fact, it is hard to think of any topic more surrounded by taboo among both young and old than the sin of sodomy—mere use of the word is enough to elicit denunciation and shunning.) The authors note that “there is often great disagreement among young people” about contraception, abortion, homosexuality, cohabitation, marriage, and the priesthood. In consequence, “they may want the Church to change her teaching.” Every one of these complaints is a challenge to the Christian idea that our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, and so are not our own. We cannot use them however we wish, because they are sacred, set apart for the Lord.

The document even manifests a strange prejudice against the consecrated space of the sanctuary. Its authors declare: “Above all, the place in which we wish to be met by the Church is the streets.” They further mention “bars,” “gyms,” “parks,” “coffee shops,” “stadiums,” “the workplace,” “prisons,” “orphanages,” “hospitals,” “rehabilitation centers,” “red-light districts,” “war-torn regions,” “marginal neighborhoods,” “rural areas” … apparently the Church should be everywhere but in the churches. At points, the document’s attitude toward sacred ground seems almost hostile (“people are the Church, not the building”)—like those poor demon-possessed characters who cannot pass through church doors.

All this amounts to a kind of functional Arianism, a stress on the Church’s human dimension at the expense of the divine. The document laments that people perceive Christ “as distant from the human experience.” In order to overcome this gap, the document urges us to “understand more deeply the person of Christ, His life, and His humanity.” His divinity goes unmentioned.

This document does not speak for young Catholics. It fails to represent either the Catholic faith or the young people who profess it. It conjures and condemns a Church that is too institutional, too hierarchical, too focused on the sacred at the expense of the world. This image of the Church is a holdover from the 1950s, when the men who now lead the Church were young rebels. They wanted what Michael Novak called an “open church”—and they got it. All the structures against which they inveigh today were dynamited decades ago. The churches they fear to enter have long since been sold. This document is an obvious counterfeit, an old man’s idea of what the young must want. He thinks they want what he did.

In fact, they want something different. That cassock-wearing priest is the vanguard of a generational change. If current trends hold, there will be more French priests in traditionalist orders in 2040 than in dioceses and other orders combined. As Fr. René Dinklo, head of the Dutch Dominican province, has said: “We are on the brink of far-reaching changes,” because the young want to “re-discover a number of religious practices, rituals, forms of singing and prayer ... which the older generation has set aside.” This liturgical revival is merely the visible expression of a broader embrace of tradition and dogma. Young people want the saving words of Christ, which are found in sound doctrine and by solemn worship. When they ask for bread, do not give them a stone.

But never mind what the young really want. No youthful assembly, however representative, or pious, could help a church that has to consult a focus group before it is able to preach. It should be easy to see now, after so many decades of failure, that “reading the signs of the times” means navel-gazing, while “dialogue and encounter” is a lone man’s voice echoing in empty churches. We need once again to put theology before anthropology, asking what our Lord wants before polling public opinion. Our encounter, our dialogue, is with Him.
 
Top