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wizards8507

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I'll bite. Martin's non-response is just a giant straw man argument intended to wrap an obvious deviation from the consistent teaching of the Church with a bunch of religious platitudes to help justify those who would rather embrace the bourgeoisie consensus than be converted to the traditional Christian standard.

No one is singling out homosexuals. We are in the midst of a sexual revolution that wants to redefine the significance and meaning of the sexual act and sexual identity. To assert that any Christian response to that revolution, even one as tame and tempered as the so-called Nashville Statement, is an act of unchristian judgmentalism is just rhetorical nonsense hiding behind the current pop opinion trying to score cheap points and convince people who won't take the time to actually study the issue to agree with him.
I agree.

Why, then, is there not a single Catholic of note signing on to the Nashville Statement? Why is there silence on these issues out of the Vatican, the USCCB, and pulpits across the country?
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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I agree.

Why, then, is there not a single Catholic of note signing on to the Nashville Statement? Why is there silence on these issues out of the Vatican, the USCCB, and pulpits across the country?

The Church, thus far, has been unwavering in her stance. Why does she need to reaffirm her position by jumping on a random pentacostal proclamation? I'm failing to see the benefit or necessity of such an action?
 

wizards8507

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The Church, thus far, has been unwavering in her stance. Why does she need to reaffirm her position by jumping on a random pentacostal proclamation? I'm failing to see the benefit or necessity of such an action?
Seriously? That's like saying Fr. Hesburgh shouldn't have marched with Martin Luther King because the Church's stance on human rights was already written in some dusty archive in Rome so what's the benefit or necessity of such action? The necessity of such action is that the moral fabric of our society is decaying at an already rapid and accelerating pace. By choosing to sit this one out, the Church in America is either indifferent to or complicit in that decay, depending on how charitably one chooses to read their silence.

To be clear, my main issue isn't that the Church has been silent regarding the Nashville Statement in particular, it's that the Church has been silent about everything. But I suppose fuzzy homilies about "Your Pal Jesus (TM)" keep the collection baskets more full than definitive statements about morality and repentance.
 
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Old Man Mike

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"Church has been silent about everything..... "

What an arrogant ignorant pile of crap. I'd throw a batch of red neg "roses" at that, but I'm trying to quit feeding trolls.
 

zelezo vlk

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To me the Nashville Statement is pretty simple.

I'll talk with the Evangelicals about sexual morality when they come out strongly against divorce, remarriage, and contraception. Until then, my message remains: Repent and submit to the Bishop of Rome.
 

zelezo vlk

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This is a pretty good thread by Ryan T. Anderson expanding on why he's wary of the Nashville Statement as a devout Catholic

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Can anyone explain to me why the Nashville Statement says chastity is only required outside of marriage, not inside as well?</p>— Ryan T. Anderson (@RyanTAnd) <a href="https://twitter.com/RyanTAnd/status/902900070235987968">August 30, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

wizards8507

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This is a pretty good thread by Ryan T. Anderson expanding on why he's wary of the Nashville Statement as a devout Catholic

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Can anyone explain to me why the Nashville Statement says chastity is only required outside of marriage, not inside as well?</p>— Ryan T. Anderson (@RyanTAnd) <a href="https://twitter.com/RyanTAnd/status/902900070235987968">August 30, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
1. Chastity is understood by most people to mean abstinence from sexual intercourse. Most people would have taken "chastity within marriage" to mean a husband can't have sex with his wife. You and I obviously have a deeper understanding of what chastity actually means, but most people would have simply been confused by such a statement. To an Evangelical, "chastity" and "abstinence" are the same thing.

2. You're kind of making my point. If any Catholic thinkers or clergy of any intellectual heft were part of the conversations behind this document, they could have pushed for some of its weak points to be more fully formed. For example, they could have pushed for definitive statements about contraception and pornography.
 
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Domina Nostra

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1. Chastity is understood by most people to mean abstinence from sexual intercourse. Most people would have taken "chastity within marriage" to mean a husband can't have sex with his wife. You and I obviously have a deeper understanding of what chastity actually means, but most people would have simply been confused by such a statement. To an Evangelical, "chastity" and "abstinence" are the same thing.

2. You're kind of making my point. If any Catholic thinkers or clergy of any intellectual heft were part of the conversations behind this document, they could have pushed for some of its weak points to be more fully formed. For example, they could have pushed for definitive statements about contraception and pornography.

My guess is that the people who signed this aren't too worried about the backlash because they are outside their orbits.

For Catholics, who try to say mainstream, such statements are treacherous. So they are probably very wary of going down with these guys--especially not knowing what they may say next. Really, as Catholics, if you can't get at least one bishop on board, what did you really achieve? The people who want to hide from the issues will simply ask you what authority you have to speak for the Church. It's hard to contend with that argument. It's like arguing that the better team lost a football game. It may be true, but the "scoreboard" argument usually wins.
 

zelezo vlk

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There's nothing especially controversial in there. The entire USCCB should be on board.


Again, why should they be on board with a half-measure statement?

See:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Let me add: I support the broader aims of the Nashville statement and the people who drafted it and signed it.</p>— Ryan T. Anderson (@RyanTAnd) <a href="https://twitter.com/RyanTAnd/status/902913992699633664">August 30, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">But a missed opportunity: To explain that chastity is the virtue that should govern *all* of our sexual lives & it makes demands on *all*</p>— Ryan T. Anderson (@RyanTAnd) <a href="https://twitter.com/RyanTAnd/status/902914605890101250">August 30, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

And to your second point above: I don't think the Evangelicals care to make definitive statements against porn and contraception. And probably not against divorce+remarriage as well. If that's the case, why should the USCCB do anything other than call out the Nashville Statement for not going far enough?
 

wizards8507

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Again, why should they be on board with a half-measure statement?
It's a meaningless distinction.

"Murder is evil" is a true statement and you should full-throatedly endorse it. Not whine that "yeah but rape is evil too so I'm not on board with 'murder is evil.'"

And to your second point above: I don't think the Evangelicals care to make definitive statements against porn and contraception. And probably not against divorce+remarriage as well. If that's the case, why should the USCCB do anything other than call out the Nashville Statement for not going far enough?
Fantastic! I'd love them to. But they haven't.
 

zelezo vlk

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It's a meaningless distinction.

"Murder is evil" is a true statement and you should full-throatedly endorse it. Not whine that "yeah but rape is evil too so I'm not on board with 'murder is evil.'"

It is an incredibly important distinction. And you have that backwards. It's not "Murder is evil, but rape is too so I don't want to support you." It's "murder is evil but I don't agree that abortion is murder so I can't support you."

The Catholic Church stands for chastity within the confines of marriage in addition to outside of marriage. The Nashville Statement makes no such claim, and the recent history of the Protestant Church should lead anybody to realize that they don't care to include marriage within the scope of sexual morality.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I'm with zelezo on this. Catholic sexual ethics are the same as they were 2,000 years ago. The principles and the authority behind them can be found quite easily for anyone who is curious to know more. The USCCB filed an amicus brief in Obergefell and released a statement after the holding came down. There's no reason to believe that signing onto the Nashville Statement would advance the Church's mission, or expose Americans to a viewpoint they haven't encountered before. But it could easily cause blowback, either: (1) by further antagonizing people who are already suspicious of the Church; or (2) by obscuring the important differences between Catholics and Evangelicals on this point (which zelezo has touched on above).

One of the persistent difficulties in evangelizing people who experience same sex attraction is the perception that Catholic teaching is especially burdensome for them, when properly understood, it's not. Explicitly endorsing a statement by Christians who do not understand the concept of conjugal chastity, or that celibacy is a higher calling than marriage, would only exacerbate those difficulties.

Many of the problems facing the American Church today have come from attempts to fit Catholicism into the American political spectrum, which clearly doesn't work. And the Vatican is the center of a global institution, so one shouldn't expect (or want) it to wade into every battle in the American culture war. The Church faces a very different set of problems in African and Asia than it does in the West.

The Week's Matthew Walther just published an article on this subject titled "The progressives who cried bigotry":

It is difficult not to enjoy the liberal outrage being generated by the so-called "Nashville Statement," a brief, fairly boring manifesto on marriage recently issued by an evangelical Christian body called the Council on Biblical Manhood and Woman. Here's a sample:

We affirm that God has designed marriage to be a covenantal, sexual, procreative, lifelong union of one man and one woman, as husband and wife, and is meant to signify the covenant love between Christ and his bride the church.

We deny that God has designed marriage to be a homosexual, polygamous, or polyamorous relationship. We also deny that marriage is a mere human contract rather than a covenant made before God. [Nashville Statement]

As far as Christian defenses of marriage go, this is tame stuff. Still, I understand why super-woke outlets like Salon are comfortable referring to the document as "bigotry-filled" and glibly pretending that any real Christian would surely disagree with its claims about morality. These websites also pay writers to insist that wrestling GIFs are threats of violence and that allowing male teenagers to compete in female athletic competitions is unremarkable. For those engaged in such work, clear thinking with rigorous categories and definitions is a professional liability. They accept emotion, feigned or otherwise, as the only genuine moral currency. They are geniuses who can simultaneously maintain that "male" and "female" are artificial socially constructed distinctions to which no meaningful predicates can be attached — that there is no such thing as being a man or a woman per se — and that it is possible for a woman, something that in essence does not exist, to be trapped in a man's body.

But it's not just the restless young piling on the Nashville Statement. So too are the bandwagoning would-be woke neoliberal Baby Boomers who insist that a basic assumption which they have held for most of their now-long lives — namely that same-sex marriage is an oxymoron, like married bachelorhood — is now rank bigotry. In 10 years when polygamy is legalized by fiat, they will rail in their creaking voices against "polyphobes" or some similarly monstrous coinage. Their recent decision to call those of us who insist that marriage is a covenant between men and women "bigots" is ludicrous, predictable, and somewhat grimly amusing.

It's also entirely correct. In the eyes of the world, faithful Christians will always be bigots.

But if the Nashville Statement is "bigoted," then the target of the council's animus is much wider than its critics, juvenile and geriatric, will allow. It is bigoted not only against same-sex marriage, but against participation in what used to be called "the marital act" outside of its proper context, namely that of lifelong exclusive marriage designated by God for the avoidance of sin and the conferral of those graces necessary for resisting it. It is, therefore, by extension bigoted against divorce and the fallacious assumption that it is possible for those whose spouses live to marry again and against polygamy and concubinage. It is bigoted against the unnatural practice of what was once called "self-abuse," against onanism and (though its drafters may not like having this pointed out) contraception. It is bigoted against willful delight in lust, against pornography. It is bigoted against any denial of the efficacy of God's grace and his infinite mercy for the hearts of the contrite. It is bigoted, in other words, against sin.

If this is bigotry, then all Christians are bigots.

Those halcyon periods when the spirit of the Gospel has not disgusted the zeitgeist, when our religion has not outraged the powers and principalities, the rulers of the darkness of this world, have been brief and lucid intervals. If hating sin is bigotry, then may the Immaculate Heart of Mary strengthen us in our rank prejudice not only against these sins of the flesh, but against greed, blasphemy, the occult, irreligion, murder, lies, gossip, calumny, hatred, despair, and all sins moral and venial.

Of course, it should go without saying that hating sin is not the same thing as hating sinners, much less condoning violence or uncharitable words. All Christians must condemn such things.

And none of this should be taken to suggest that the Nashville Statement is without problems. The framers seem to assume that all men and women are destined to marriage, a plain denial of St. Paul's words about the higher calling of lifelong celibacy. They also contradict themselves, for example, in suggesting that chastity is required only of the unmarried (there is such a thing as "conjugal chastity" as well). It should also have made it clearer that the very concept of "sexuality" — homo, hetero, a, poly, or bi — is, as Michel Foucault observed, a late 19th century anachronism, like "race," a regrettable artifact of an era in which it was also assumed by a certain class that people convicted of robbery possessed innate, immutable traits that made their behavior inevitable. Christians harbor no ill toward homosexuals, not only because of the dictates of charity, but because there are no such things, just as there are no such things as heterosexuals. There are only people.

But it does seem to me rather late in the game for the Nashville framers to be taking up arms against the legalization of same-sex marriage. Its appearance was a predicable consequence of Protestant acquiescence with divorce, contraception, fornication, various disordered practices among married couples, and other evils. Unmoored from religious morality, marriage necessarily becomes a meaningless civic designation. Reversing Obergefell would be a good thing; it would not be enough to restore the legal status of marriage in this country to one in keeping with their own convictions.

For the foreseeable future, our bigotry looks like a losing game.
 

zelezo vlk

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Side note: my parish is starting Vespers this Sunday. It's gonna be sooooooooooooo dope

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Whiskeyjack

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Matthew Schmitz just published an article in The Catholic Herald titled "The kids are old rite":

Last week, in a speech to Italian liturgists, Pope Francis appeared to set in stone the liturgical changes that came at the time of Vatican II. “After this magisterium, after this long journey,” he said, “we can affirm with certainty and with magisterial authority that the liturgical reform is irreversible.” Liberal commentators celebrated his comments as a blow to the “the re-emergence of a certain neo-clericalism with its formalism” and rejoiced that the “restorationist movement in liturgy is being reversed”.

Liberals have reason to be glad: Francis has shown that he is sympathetic to their desire for a liturgy that feels more like a communal meal than an ancient sacrifice. But does Francis’s declaration mean that after millennia of development liturgical evolution has arrived at a final state and now must stop?

In a word, no. One might as well magisterially declare that spilt milk can’t be put back in the carton, or dogmatically define that Humpty Dumpty can’t be reassembled, as proclaim that liturgical reform cannot be reversed. It is like a son proudly declaring that he cannot undo a grave mistake. The observation is incontestable, even if shame would be preferable to boasts. The question is not whether we can undo past blunders, but rather how to clean up the mess.

Francis’ remarks are yet another sign of his anxiety over the traditional direction in which young Catholics are carrying the Church. We have seen this before, in the stories he tells about young priests who shout at strangers and play dress-up, unlike the wise, old, compassionate (and liberal) monsignori. Francis has played variations of John Lennon’s Imagine: “We are grandparents called to dream and give our dream to today’s youth: they need it.” Maybe so, but the youth do not seem to want it.

As any young progressive or old traditionalist will tell you, age does not dictate whether one prefers dogma or liberty, ritual or casualness. Yet across much of the Catholic world, young traditionalists are competing against old progressives. Ironies abound, as youths who revere the venerable face off against elders who chase the up-to-date, and progressives who fear the future battle with traditionalists who loathe their immediate forebears.

Anyone who doubts the reality of the conflict should visit a monastery or convent, where young monastics will almost invariably be more traditional than their elders. In France, in 20 years’ time a majority of priests will celebrate exclusively the traditional Latin mass. Wherever one looks, the kids are old rite.

Few have spoken as eloquently about the changes the Church is undergoing as Fr René Dinklo, provincial of the Dutch Dominicans, and the only member of his order from Generation X. One of Fr Dinklo’s earliest memories is of a confessional filled with the drums used by the youth choir. By the time he joined the order in the early 1990s, the Dutch Dominicans had discarded their traditional prayers and come to believe that the order would be transformed into an assembly of laymen. He had reason to think he would be the last priest in a province that had lasted for 500 years.

Then the province began to get vocations. The young Dutch Dominicans were eager to reconstitute the forms of life and prayer their elders had dismantled. “We are on the brink of far-reaching changes,” Fr Dinklo observed in an address last year. “In this situation tensions between generations may arise.” The younger men want to wear the habit and “re-discover a number of religious practices, rituals, forms of singing and prayer from the tradition which the older generation has set aside”. In order to avoid generational conflict, these young men are being established in a new house.

In a 2010 address, Archbishop Augustine DiNoia described the experiences of these young traditionalists. “My sense is that these twenty- and thirty-somethings have been radicalised by their experience … in a way that we were not.” After “God-knows-what kinds of personal and social experiences”, they have come to know “moral chaos, personally and socially, and they want no part of it”. A sense of narrow escape guides their vocations. “It is as if they had gone to the edge of an abyss and pulled back.”

DiNoia’s generation sought to unite the Church and the world, but the young priests believe the two are finally opposed. “It may be hard for us to comprehend, but these young people do not share the cultural optimism that many of us learned to take for granted in the post-conciliar period.” They lament the “Church’s own internal secularisation”, particularly “the disenchantment of the liturgy”. This explains their enthusiasm for the 1962 missal.

DiNoia is anxious for the priests of his generation. Despite their talk of being open to the future, “I am not certain that we … are entirely ready for the kind of radical rejection of the ambient culture on the one hand, and, on the other, the radical commitment to the Dominican-Catholic alternative way of life that we recognise in the young men.”

Many young Catholics feel that they have been denied an inheritance that was rightly theirs. They have had to reassemble piecemeal something that should have been handed to them intact. An English academic recently told me of his attempt to obtain a copy of the Dictionnaire de théologie catholique, a reference book that went from impeccable authority to liber prohibitus at the time of the Council. He contacted a Belgian who helped declining religious houses dispose of their libraries. This Belgian found a Franciscan community that was willing to sell its set – but at the last moment took a different course. The monks decided to burn the books, “to prevent them getting into the hands of traditionalists”.

Who are these terrifying young traditionalists? Step into a quiet chapel in New York and you will find an answer. There, early each Saturday morning, young worshippers gather in secret. They are divided by sex: women on the left, men on the right. Dressed in denim and Birkenstocks, with the occasional nose piercing, they could be a group of loiterers on any downtown sidewalk. But they have come here with a purpose. As a bell rings, they rise in unison. A hooded priest approaches the altar and begins to say Mass in Latin. During Communion, they kneel on the bare floor where an altar rail should be.

In a city where discretion is mocked and vice goes on parade, the atmosphere of reverence is startling. These Masses began a year ago, when a young priest finally gave in to the young worshippers’ demands. They wanted the traditional Mass; he feared offending older colleagues who loathe it. This secret conventicle was the compromise. Advertised by word of mouth among students and young professionals, it has slowly grown.

After the Last Gospel, the worshippers break their fast nearby with coffee. I ask one how she started coming here. “I’ve been going to Mass for 24 years,” she says. “I still go to both forms, but when I encountered the Latin Mass it felt more reverent. I was taken out of this world.” Her manner is disarming, her dress contemporary and unassuming. As the conversation drifts into a discussion of why Pius IX was right in the Mortara case, I reflect that she is the kind of person image-conscious Catholics would like to hold up as the Church’s future – were she not so drawn to its past.

It me.
 

greyhammer90

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Wizard playing checkers while the Church is playing chess.

The only people who will look favorably upon the Nashville statement are those who already agree with it. Those who are predisposed to disagree will hate it and use it as a further excuse to ignore. The Catholic Church has never been halfhearted in its statements about homosexuality. It's been pretty clear about what homosexuality is and how it views it. Anyone who is Catholic, or knows anything about Catholics, is aware what the position of the Church is. Why then would the Church lump themselves in with this doctrinal statement that doesn't capture the full picture of its belief? What does it have to gain? To give the warm fuzzies to Catholics and Chrisitians who care about homosexuality more than other just as common, just as traditionally evil, just as traditionally dangerous, sins? Why?

Wiz can be as flippant about the effect of these "fuzzy homilies" as he wants. I promise those tweets reached more people who were naturally predisposed to disagree with the Nashville Statement than the Statement itself did. Maybe after reading that article, those people look into why the Catholic Church, which they have always heard hates gay people, did not sign the Nashville statement. Maybe they come away with some exposure they otherwise would not have gotten. You get people who disagree to come to the discussion table with understanding and compassion. (Which is totally separate from endorsement or support.) Like it or not, the church needs people at the discussion table if they want to fight the normalization effect every Catholic is so afraid of. (Not to mention, psychology aside, isn't basic understanding and compassion kind of the whole point of the Church? Or is it just about reinforcing to followers that they are, in fact, better?)
 

wizards8507

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As I've said, I'm not especially concerned with the Nashville Statement in particular so much as the timidity and, dare I say, cowardice of the Church's leaders more broadly. When was the last time you saw a Catholic bishop of any note stand up and say unapologetically "this is what we believe, it's divine Truth, and hell no it doesn't make us bigots for believing it." Our leaders rightly ask us to live our faith but it would be nice to get some support from the top every now and then.

Another distinction I want to be clear about is that my comments are not directed at the Church herself but the people running the show. Obviously Church teachings are clear on these matters but it doesn't do anybody any good if no one is out actually TEACHING them.
 

wizards8507

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In unrelated news, I'm going to LOVE rooting for this guy all year.

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dcf49abce1521da4ab4abf28f6542009.jpg
 

zelezo vlk

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As I've said, I'm not especially concerned with the Nashville Statement in particular so much as the timidity and, dare I say, cowardice of the Church's leaders more broadly. When was the last time you saw a Catholic bishop of any note stand up and say unapologetically "this is what we believe, it's divine Truth, and hell no it doesn't make us bigots for believing it." .

Bishop Barron mentioned it Tuesday on his podcast

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Domina Nostra

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Wizard playing checkers while the Church is playing chess.

The only people who will look favorably upon the Nashville statement are those who already agree with it. Those who are predisposed to disagree will hate it and use it as a further excuse to ignore. The Catholic Church has never been halfhearted in its statements about homosexuality. It's been pretty clear about what homosexuality is and how it views it. Anyone who is Catholic, or knows anything about Catholics, is aware what the position of the Church is. Why then would the Church lump themselves in with this doctrinal statement that doesn't capture the full picture of its belief? What does it have to gain? To give the warm fuzzies to Catholics and Chrisitians who care about homosexuality more than other just as common, just as traditionally evil, just as traditionally dangerous, sins? Why?

Wiz can be as flippant about the effect of these "fuzzy homilies" as he wants. I promise those tweets reached more people who were naturally predisposed to disagree with the Nashville Statement than the Statement itself did. Maybe after reading that article, those people look into why the Catholic Church, which they have always heard hates gay people, did not sign the Nashville statement. Maybe they come away with some exposure they otherwise would not have gotten. You get people who disagree to come to the discussion table with understanding and compassion. (Which is totally separate from endorsement or support.) Like it or not, the church needs people at the discussion table if they want to fight the normalization effect every Catholic is so afraid of. (Not to mention, psychology aside, isn't basic understanding and compassion kind of the whole point of the Church? Or is it just about reinforcing to followers that they are, in fact, better?)

I used to think along these line. Now I much more inclined to think that the bishops are playing politics, not chess. The long game is not to bring people around to the Church's view of chastity, but to allow the Church to survive another day--to maintain the current state of peace and prosperity.

Personally, I have no problem with the Bishops not signing on. But I do have a problem with them not defending the basic premises against the Catholic liberal opposition. Martin needs to be shut down.

As for the Church "never [having] been halfhearted in its statements about homosexuality," I'm not sure why it would have been in the past. This was a non-issue for the past thousand years. It is only now that the issue is coming to a head, and all kinds of halfhearted statements are flying around--from Cardinals, bishops, and Vatican appointees. The synod on the family made very clear that muddling the Church's teaching on this issue is a key goal of some very powerful people.
 
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Old Man Mike

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By the way, there is a procedure whereby "The Bishops" speak on heavy matters such a this, and it's not informal nor quick. Any Bishop deciding on his own to put stuff out in public is greatly risking the Church's reputation for considered intelligence on any such matters. Either you like that "conservatism" or you don't, but that's The Church's way. (and, in another dimension, Protestant and Catholic leaders have had a long history of not trusting one another ... which is particularly true for the more conservative wings of both groups.) (Finally, conservative Catholics tend to speak with a casual confidence about the Holy Spirit guiding "The Magisterium." The Bishops, allegedly, are the mass of that Magisterium. Should they or any individual just jump in there to the media without lengthy discussion with their peers and Rome?) This is long established procedure. If someone doesn't like it, OK, but don't think that slow-moving consultancy on topics is "emotionally" weak. Call it politics if you want, but The Church would call it Wisdom, I believe.
 

Whiskeyjack

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As I've said, I'm not especially concerned with the Nashville Statement in particular so much as the timidity and, dare I say, cowardice of the Church's leaders more broadly. When was the last time you saw a Catholic bishop of any note stand up and say unapologetically "this is what we believe, it's divine Truth, and hell no it doesn't make us bigots for believing it." Our leaders rightly ask us to live our faith but it would be nice to get some support from the top every now and then.

As I've read more about Church history, I've actually gotten more relaxed about this. We've been through many periods like this before. See this passage from Chesterton's The Everlasting Man:

I have said that Asia and the ancient world had an air of being too old to die. Christendom has had the very opposite fate. Christendom has had a series of revolutions and in each one of them Christianity has died. Christianity has died many times and risen again; for it had a god who knew the way out of the grave. But the first extraordinary fact which marks this history is this: that Europe has been turned upside down over and over again; and that at the end of each of these revolutions the same religion has again been found on top. The Faith is always converting the age, not as an old religion but as a new religion. This truth is hidden from many by a convention that is too little noticed. Curiously enough, it is a convention of the sort which those who ignore it claim especially to detect and denounce. They are always telling us that priests and ceremonies are not religion and that religious organisation can be a hollow sham; but they hardly realise how true it is. It is so true that three or four times at least in the history of Christendom the whole soul seemed to have gone out of Christianity; and almost every man in his heart expected its end. This fact is only masked in medieval and other times by that very official religion which such critics pride themselves on seeing through. Christianity remained the official religion of a Renaissance prince or the official religion of an eighteenthcentury bishop, just as an ancient mythology remained the official religion of Julius Caesar or the Arian creed long remained the official religion of Julian the Apostate. But there was a difference between the cases of Julius and of Julian; because the Church had begun its strange career. There was no reason why men like Julius should not worship gods like Jupiter forever in public and laugh at them forever in private. But when Julian treated Christianity as dead, he found it had come to life again. He also found, incidentally, that there was not the faintest sign of Jupiter ever coming to life again. This case of Julian and the episode of Arianism is but the first of a series of examples that can only be roughly indicated here. Arianism, as has been said, had every human appearance of being the natural way in which that particular superstition of Constantine might be expected to peter out. All the ordinary stages had been passed through; the creed had become a respectable thing, had become a ritual thing, had then been modified into a rational thing; and the rationalists were ready to dissipate the last remains of it, just as they do to-day. When Christianity rose again suddenly and threw them, it was almost as unexpected as Christ rising from the dead. But there are many other examples of the same thing, even about the same time. The rush of missionaries from Ireland, for instance, has all the air of an unexpected onslaught of young men on an old world, and even on a Church that showed signs of growing old. Some of them were martyred on the coast of Cornwall; and the chief authority on Cornish antiquities told me that he did not believe for a moment that they were martyred by heathens but (as he expressed it with some humour) `by rather slack Christians.'

Now if we were to dip below the surface of history, as it is not in the scope of this argument to do, I suspect that we should find several occasions when Christendom was thus to all appearance hollowed out from within by doubt and indifference, so that only the old Christian shell stood as the pagan shell had stood so long. But the difference is that in every such case, the sons were fanatical for the faith where the fathers had been slack about it. This is obvious in the case of the transition from the Renaissance to the CounterReformation. It is obvious in the case of a transition from the eighteenth century to the many Catholic revivals of our own time. But I suspect many other examples which would be worthy of separate studies.

Click through to read the rest. Our role is to be the fanatical sons, and ensure we don't turn into slack fathers. Raise your kids as orthodox Catholics and make sure each one of them makes a serious effort at discerning whether or not they have a religious vocation. The clergy is drawn from the laity, and much like politicians, it seems like we often get the clergy we deserve. But there have always been wicked and heretical prelates, and the Church has gone through several phases of "hollowing" out before, only to be reborn again. So there's no need for anxiety; just the usual prayer, fasting and almsgiving.

And for those looking for a public statement from a high-profile Catholic cleric along the same lines as the Nashville Statement, Cardinal Sarah--who I hope will be our next Pope--just published an article in the WSJ titled "How Catholics Can Welcome LGBT Believers":

The Catholic Church has been criticized by many, including some of its own followers, for its pastoral response to the LGBT community. This criticism deserves a reply—not to defend the Church’s practices reflexively, but to determine whether we, as the Lord’s disciples, are reaching out effectively to a group in need. Christians must always strive to follow the new commandment Jesus gave at the Last Supper: “Love one another, even as I have loved you.”

To love someone as Christ loves us means to love that person in the truth. “For this I was born,” Jesus told Pontius Pilate, “to bear witness to the truth.” The Catechism of the Catholic Church reflects this insistence on honesty, stating that the church’s message to the world must “reveal in all clarity the joy and demands of the way of Christ.”

Those who speak on behalf of the church must be faithful to the unchanging teachings of Christ, because only through living in harmony with God’s creative design do people find deep and lasting fulfillment. Jesus described his own message in these terms, saying in the Gospel of John: “These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.” Catholics believe that, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the church draws its teachings upon the truths of Christ’s message.

Among Catholic priests, one of the most outspoken critics of the church’s message with regard to sexuality is Father James Martin, an American Jesuit. In his book “Building a Bridge,” published earlier this year, he repeats the common criticism that Catholics have been harshly critical of homosexuality while neglecting the importance of sexual integrity among all of its followers.

Father Martin is correct to argue that there should not be any double standard with regard to the virtue of chastity, which, challenging as it may be, is part of the good news of Jesus Christ for all Christians. For the unmarried—no matter their attractions—faithful chastity requires abstention from sex.

This might seem a high standard, especially today. Yet it would be contrary to the wisdom and goodness of Christ to require something that cannot be achieved. Jesus calls us to this virtue because he has made our hearts for purity, just as he has made our minds for truth. With God’s grace and our perseverance, chastity is not only possible, but it will also become the source for true freedom.

We do not need to look far to see the sad consequences of the rejection of God’s plan for human intimacy and love. The sexual liberation the world promotes does not deliver its promise. Rather, promiscuity is the cause of so much needless suffering, of broken hearts, of loneliness, and of treatment of others as means for sexual gratification. As a mother, the church seeks to protect her children from the harm of sin, as an expression of her pastoral charity.

In her teaching about homosexuality, the church guides her followers by distinguishing their identities from their attractions and actions. First there are the people themselves, who are always good because they are children of God. Then there are same-sex attractions, which are not sinful if not willed or acted upon but are nevertheless at odds with human nature. And finally there are same-sex relations, which are gravely sinful and harmful to the well-being of those who partake in them. People who identify as members of the LGBT community are owed this truth in charity, especially from clergy who speak on behalf of the church about this complex and difficult topic.

It is my prayer that the world will finally heed the voices of Christians who experience same-sex attractions and who have discovered peace and joy by living the truth of the Gospel. I have been blessed by my encounters with them, and their witness moves me deeply. I wrote the foreword to one such testimony, Daniel Mattson’s book, “Why I Don’t Call Myself Gay: How I Reclaimed My Sexual Reality and Found Peace,” with the hope of making his and similar voices better heard.

These men and women testify to the power of grace, the nobility and resilience of the human heart, and the truth of the church’s teaching on homosexuality. In many cases, they have lived apart from the Gospel for a period but have been reconciled to Christ and his church. Their lives are not easy or without sacrifice. Their same-sex inclinations have not been vanquished. But they have discovered the beauty of chastity and of chaste friendships. Their example deserves respect and attention, because they have much to teach all of us about how to better welcome and accompany our brothers and sisters in authentic pastoral charity.
 

Domina Nostra

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As I've read more about Church history, I've actually gotten more relaxed about this. We've been through many periods like this before.

It's always vital to have historical perspective, but history also tells us that periods like the Arian crisis, the Muslim conquest, the Reformation, and WWI/WWII can leave permanent marks on the Faith and the world.

Sure, the Church survived, and we need to take great comfort in that, but its not small potatoes that whole nations were removed from the Catholic orbit permanently (or at least for centuries, if they come back) and that whole peoples no longer believe.

Further, great men like Bl. John Henry Newman and Fr. John Hardon, as well as a number of Popes, understood that the current heresy of "modernism" posed unique problems that were more dangerous than any other heresy because they went straight to the heart of what it even means to have faith. They understood this crisis as the worst in the history of the Church. And something has to be "the worst," right? :)

Long story short, history is not an inevitable cycle. Men make decisions and they have consequences. Sometimes, those consequences carry on for centuries.

And for those looking for a public statement from a high-profile Catholic cleric along the same lines as the Nashville Statement, Cardinal Sarah--who I hope will be our next Pope--just published an article in the WSJ titled "How Catholics Can Welcome LGBT Believers":

What Cardinal Sarah did is exactly what I think church leaders should be doing. Amen.
 

wizards8507

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And for those looking for a public statement from a high-profile Catholic cleric along the same lines as the Nashville Statement, Cardinal Sarah--who I hope will be our next Pope--just published an article in the WSJ titled "How Catholics Can Welcome LGBT Believers":
Now that's what I'm talking about.

You know papal politics better than I do... what makes you think that the same College of Cardinals that elevated an Argentinian Jesuit to the papacy would turn and do the same with an orthodox African?
 
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