Should BVG Be Fired?

[philipm31]

My reasons-
1). Who are we going to get??? I really wanted B.C.'s d-cord but UM took him
2). I tend to be in the 3 year camp.
3) Injures have ravaged the D the past two seasons, you can only coach up to an extent. I.e. you can't expect a 3* level player to be able to replace a 5* level player and not expect to see a production/performance drop off.
4). The DB play I tend to place the blame on Coach Todd Lyght, not BVG as much.

If I were BK, in order for BVG to stay I would want to see a completely new or heavily altered defensive scheme for next year. If he can't produce my request then I think it's best we part ways.

What makes anyone think BVG will change anything? He never has and never will. This system does not work for ND and it was not going to do so unless he molded it to his players's abilities. He has just a massive inability to see that needs to happen.

He will never change his philosophy and we are still going to get killed by the big play because of it, while not being able to generate TOs like an aggressive D "should".

~theoretically speaking~

 

[ThePiombino]

I knew he bounced around, but WOW, didn't realize how much:

Totals: In 34 years, VanGorder has had 18 different jobs — at four high schools, 10 colleges (counting South Carolina) and four NFL teams (counting the Falcons twice). That’s one posting every 1.9 years. Ten of those years were spent in Georgia. Twelve were spent in a state that borders Georgia — plus the 5 1/2 weeks with South Carolina

Good news is he can't be long for this place. Right?

Source: The weird career of Brian VanGorder (now at Notre Dame) | Mark Bradley blog

 

[RDU Irish]

What are you basing your opinion on that Morgan should have played? He may be great next year, but he certainly would not be the first 5 star player that did not develop as we HOPE when he gets to college or that has the light come on later than we would have hoped.

You mean the Freshman All American? Not too shabby an accolade for a kid thrown in the mix after Schmidt went down in 2014. How could we ever extrapolate that into better play as a Sophomore?

 

[kmoose]

What makes anyone think BVG will change anything? He never has and never will. This system does not work for ND and it was not going to do so unless he molded it to his players's abilities. He has just a massive inability to see that needs to happen.

He will never change his philosophy and we are still going to get killed by the big play because of it, while not being able to generate TOs like an aggressive D "should".

~theoretically speaking~

This was his second season at ND. You don't become a good coach by constantly tinkering with a system. If you have a system, you run it. You don't constantly mess with it, year after year after year. By all accounts, his system was working pretty well, last year, until the injury bug hit. So lets give him some time, before we try to make a judgement on whether or not he is too stubborn to change?

 

[RDU Irish]

I fully expected us to get gashed up the middle given Tillery and Redfield getting sent home, when Jaylon went down it was defensive game over with the Eraser out of commission. Cage and Jones were not going to produce at a high volume to plug the middle. Beyond frustrating game, get down so much so fast and never being in it was largely on the defensive swiss cheese to start the game. How do you look so unprepared after a month to prepare?

I really think the entire team was flat and may have had a bit too much fun leading up to the game. OSU wasn't firing so hot nearly as much as we were just sluggish. Add tentative to that and you are going to get roasted. Way to play "not to lose" guys - last game of the year and you aren't looking to chuck it around and have some fun, wtf.

 

[RDU Irish]

This was his second season at ND. You don't become a good coach by constantly tinkering with a system. If you have a system, you run it. You don't constantly mess with it, year after year after year. By all accounts, his system was working pretty well, last year, until the injury bug hit. So lets give him some time, before we try to make a judgement on whether or not he is too stubborn to change?

If the system is so fragile that it is always at risk of injuries derailing it then it really isn't a very good system, IMO. Add to that, keeping young talent off the field because it is too damn cerebral and you have a recipe for infrequent success. Its college - find the talent and put it in position to succeed. Our defense seems to do the opposite.

If we were to rate our defensive production against the average recruiting ranking it would probably be unflattering. A Top 20 talent group producing a 50-60 type defensive ranking has to fall on coaching at some point. We can whine about our talent deficiencies all we want, 90% of the teams out there would kill to have our talent pool on defense, warts, injuries and all. Somehow they manage to build schemes that are competitive and keep every single opposing QB from looking pro caliber.

 

[kmoose]

If the system is so fragile that it is always at risk of injuries derailing it then it really isn't a very good system, IMO.

In year one of the system? Are you fucking kidding me?

Add to that, keeping young talent off the field because it is too damn cerebral and you have a recipe for infrequent success. Its college - find the talent and put it in position to succeed. Our defense seems to do the opposite.

You do realize that no coach from ND has ever said that they were playing Joe Schmidt simply because the defense was too complex for the guys behind him to handle? There have been comments about the other guys not being as good as Joe, and comments about how complex the defense is............ and people have just welded the two separate things to each other and called it a whole. At least, to my knowledge, no coach has said, "Joe is the only one who can get guys lined up correctly, because our defense is so complicated."

If we were to rate our defensive production against the average recruiting ranking it would probably be unflattering. A Top 20 talent group producing a 50-60 type defensive ranking has to fall on coaching at some point. We can whine about our talent deficiencies all we want, 90% of the teams out there would kill to have our talent pool on defense, warts, injuries and all. Somehow they manage to build schemes that are competitive and keep every single opposing QB from looking pro caliber.

Yes, let's not bother looking at how those other teams are little more than semi-pro teams. The NCAA limits the number of practice hours a team can put in, each week. But there is NO limit on how many hours the team can work out and prepare, without the coaches. Why do you think that college coaches are always talking about Senior leadership? Its because those Senior leaders function as proxy coaches in the hours and hours and hours that these kids put in, in the film room and in other drills, each and every week. And they don't let silly things like tests, papers, and homework get in the way. There are "tutors" for that. Ain't nobody got time for school!! So making the comparison is about like comparing your fat Aunt Ethel to Kate Upton; they might both be female, but that's about the ONLY thing that's comparable about them!

I'm not trying to say VanGorder is perfect, or that he won't eventually not pan out. But much of the criticism that I am reading on here is simply emotional over-reaction, instead of reasoned analysis.

 

[RDU Irish]

Let's start and end this discussion by comparing our defense to Boston College this year. What talent did they start with and what result did they get? Did they run complicated systems or just execute on a very high level?

Our defense under performed relative to the talent at hand.

 

[Corry]

ND needs to change the way it pays assistant coaches.

I agree

 

[GATTACA!]

Let's start and end this discussion by comparing our defense to Boston College this year. What talent did they start with and what result did they get? Did they run complicated systems or just execute on a very high level?

Our defense under performed relative to the talent at hand.

Bingo.

 

[Cackalacky]

Let's start and end this discussion by comparing our defense to Boston College this year. What talent did they start with and what result did they get? Did they run complicated systems or just execute on a very high level?

Our defense under performed relative to the talent at hand.

I am pretty sure Michigan just scooped up BC's DC recently.

 

[ThePiombino]

I am pretty sure Michigan just scooped up BC's DC recently.

They did.

 

[OCIrish]

You realize they were without 7 defensive starters today, right? Let's cut off 7 of your fingers and see how well you enjoy jerking yourself silly.

Ok.........I thought this was just fucking hilarious!!!!!!! Reps!!!!!!!

 

[RDU Irish]

....but ND needs to change the way it pays assistant coaches.

There's a lot of desperate thinking going on, that is probably normal after such a disappointing loss.

One thing Weis should get credit for, paying the assistants. ND stepped it up big time under Weis - and it is because Charlie pushed for it as part of his own deal. ND historically was abysmal at assistant pay and easy to poach as a result. Make a name for yourself at ND and parlay that into a better gig. They treated assistant like interns and GAs as some sick right of passage. Always plenty of applicants because WE ARE ND but you weren't going to poach from the top of the food chain.

You are absolutely right though - ND should make their OC/DC positions career positions at least. I would like to think $750k is enough for that but sadly it is probably half of what is needed to make those seats cushy enough for the best of the best. With Weis fully off the payroll maybe that time is now at hand.

 

[Irish Insanity]

I'm not the smartest football guy, but how can anyone argue for him to remain as DC. He took a loaded roster and made it fail to produce anything more than an 'OK' defense. We sat a freshman AA because our D was to complex. We can all agree is takes a fairly intelligent guy to make it in to ND and on the roster. Yet it takes those same guys forever to 'get'his system.

Is he the reason any D player with an option to leave is?

 

[kmoose]

Let's start and end this discussion by comparing our defense to Boston College this year. What talent did they start with and what result did they get? Did they run complicated systems or just execute on a very high level?

Our defense under performed relative to the talent at hand.

Absolutely lets compare the two......... and lets do it fairly:

In Dan Brown's first year(2013) as Boston College Defensive Coordinator, his defense gave up 28.9 points per game. In 2014, they trimmed that number to 20.5 points per game in his second year. In his third year, this year, they took another nice step and reduced that number even further, to 15.3 points per game.

Now let's look at Brian VanGorder:

In VanGorder's first year (2014), ND gave up 29.3 points per game. In his second season(this past year), they trimmed that by almost exactly one touchdown per game, to 22.4 points per game. So there's a similar trajectory. However, VanGorder has only had two years to teach these kids his system, while Boston College was in the third year of Brown's system.

 

[IrishLax]

Michigan had DJ Durkin and Greg Mattison... two people considered by many "elite" or at least "very good" defensive minds... on their staff this year. They had the #2 defense in the entire country this year -- only behind Alabama -- per FEI. They had no significant injuries or suspensions that I'm aware of before their game against Ohio State. And, at home, they got shredded for 42 points with Ohio State scoring TDs on 6 of their first 7 full drives.

DJ Durkin is so well regarded that he got a HC job after the game. Yet BVG was:
1) Missing damn near a dozen players to injury or suspension.
2) Of those injured, two were the best players on that side of the ball... Jaylon Smith and Sheldon Day. Sheldon Day said after the game the pain in his foot was so unbearable that he couldn't do anything and could barely walk. The defensive tackle position -- arguably the most important when playing Ohio State -- was completely decimated, and the linebacker position -- probably the second most important -- was in shambles before getting out of the first quarter.
3) Had 4 total healthy & functional defensive backs... Farley, Shumate, Watkins, and Luke... such that is was impossible to play even nickel against a spread team.
3A) Then on top of that because they lost Jaylon Smith and then Coney you were stuck with Jarret Grace trying to run with WRs.
3B) You had a 3rd stringer at CB with no experience and no ability to give him help.

So BVG had all that adversity and the defense gave up 44 points. On a per possession basis, they gave up 35 to Michigan's 42 over the first 7 possessions (the only "meaningful" one for Michigan).

There are LOTS of reasons to criticize BVG... the Ohio State game is not one of them.

 

[ColinKSU]

Absolutely lets compare the two......... and lets do it fairly:

In Dan Brown's first year(2013) as Boston College Defensive Coordinator, his defense gave up 28.9 points per game. In 2014, they trimmed that number to 20.5 points per game in his second year. In his third year, this year, they took another nice step and reduced that number even further, to 15.3 points per game.

Now let's look at Brian VanGorder:

In VanGorder's first year (2014), ND gave up 29.3 points per game. In his second season(this past year), they trimmed that by almost exactly one touchdown per game, to 22.4 points per game. So there's a similar trajectory. However, VanGorder has only had two years to teach these kids his system, while Boston College was in the third year of Brown's system.

There are a number of reasons why any statistic is what it is, and you can bend any statistic to fit whatever your argument is at the moment, so let me ask you this -- are you happy with what you see from his defense and would you be willing to put your job on the line to bet that he'll field a strength of the team in 2016?

The stats say they improved by a touchdown a game on defense in 2015, but would you say that Notre Dame had a great defense? I'd say it was unquestionably the weakest link of the team and cost them in multiple games -- including games they won by margins that should have been much better, allowing them to get backups valuable experience and not get the starters beaten up by having to hang on for dear life.

 

[Domina Nostra]

There are a number of reasons why any statistic is what it is, and you can bend any statistic to fit whatever your argument is at the moment, so let me ask you this -- are you happy with what you see from his defense and would you be willing to put your job on the line to bet that he'll field a strength of the team in 2016?

The stats say they improved by a touchdown a game on defense in 2015, but would you say that Notre Dame had a great defense? I'd say it was unquestionably the weakest link of the team and cost them in multiple games -- including games they won by margins that should have been much better, allowing them to get backups valuable experience and not get the starters beaten up by having to hang on for dear life.

I agree with this generally. So my question would be, do we really think BVG brings enough to the table that he justifies not giving someone else a chance?

 

[IrishLax]

I agree with this generally. So my question would be, do we really think BVG brings enough to the table that he justifies not giving someone else a chance?

Who would you give a chance to? There are some guys out there I liked and mentioned before (Aranda, Brown, etc.) that have been snatched up already.

 

[NDohio]

There are a number of reasons why any statistic is what it is, and you can bend any statistic to fit whatever your argument is at the moment, so let me ask you this -- are you happy with what you see from his defense and would you be willing to put your job on the line to bet that he'll field a strength of the team in 2016?

The stats say they improved by a touchdown a game on defense in 2015, but would you say that Notre Dame had a great defense? I'd say it was unquestionably the weakest link of the team and cost them in multiple games -- including games they won by margins that should have been much better, allowing them to get backups valuable experience and not get the starters beaten up by having to hang on for dear life.

I honestly could take or leave BVG for one more year. I do prefer stability in the coaches though.

To your statement in bold. As frustrating as those games were, they were actually an improvement over last year's teams. Northwestern anybody? The second half of the season last year was absolutely abysmal defensively. This season there were bad stretches and times of frustration, but the defense didn't flat out lose games we should have easily won. I do blame him for the final drive at Stanford, but it was Stanford, not Northwestern or Louisville.

If the defense can improve to the same extent next year, we should be in a good spot. Top 25ish defense and a really nice schedule.

 

[ColinKSU]

I agree with this generally. So my question would be, do we really think BVG brings enough to the table that he justifies not giving someone else a chance?

Personally? I think he's absolutely worthless, and he's going to get Kelly fired if he sticks around for 2-3 more years. The defense will be awful in 2016, but it's going to take a 4-5 win season next year for Kelly to lose his job.

He isn't a good recruiter and he doesn't field a defense that, even at a bare minimum, doesn't handicap Notre Dame on a weekly basis. I don't know what he's getting paid for at this point.

 

[kmoose]

There are a number of reasons why any statistic is what it is, and you can bend any statistic to fit whatever your argument is at the moment, so let me ask you this -- are you happy with what you see from his defense and would you be willing to put your job on the line to bet that he'll field a strength of the team in 2016?

The stats say they improved by a touchdown a game on defense in 2015, but would you say that Notre Dame had a great defense? I'd say it was unquestionably the weakest link of the team and cost them in multiple games -- including games they won by margins that should have been much better, allowing them to get backups valuable experience and not get the starters beaten up by having to hang on for dear life.

No. Notre Dame didn't field a great defense. And, no, I would not be willing to risk my financial livliehood that it will be a strength of the team next year. But that wasn't what I was arguing, so those two things have the square root of fvck-all to do with my post. Nice try on the misdirection, though. The point was, if you want to compare the defense to Boston College's, then at least acknowledge that BC is a year ahead of ND, in terms of understanding what the coaches want them to do. If you are going to compare grapefruit to oranges, then why not just compare ND's defense to the Denver Broncos' defense?

 

[JSBusch]

Interesting question with Coughlin stepping down as HC of the Giants.. does getting rid of BVG via BK leaving for the NFL satisfy the board? I am confident no, but figured I'd pose the question.

 

[gkIrish]

Interesting question with Coughlin stepping down as HC of the Giants.. does getting rid of BVG via BK leaving for the NFL satisfy the board? I am confident no, but figured I'd pose the question.

Said differently, would you rather BK and BVG both coach here next year or neither?

 

[philipm31]

This was his second season at ND. You don't become a good coach by constantly tinkering with a system. If you have a system, you run it. You don't constantly mess with it, year after year after year. By all accounts, his system was working pretty well, last year, until the injury bug hit. So lets give him some time, before we try to make a judgement on whether or not he is too stubborn to change?

How long has he been a DC and had the same system? For over 15 years? However, I bet it was not built in one season and then run for the rest of his coaching career. He tinkered with it, as he STILL should be doing to this very day. You have a foundation, yes, but you have to mold it to your players' strengths. It is the same in every endeavor in life, not just coaching.

So, YES you do become a good teacher, executive, whatever by constantly tinkering with your way of doing things, otherwise you would never get better at anything.

It is blatantly obvious that BVG has settled on one way of doing things and will never ever change that way of doing things or even mold his system into something that actually fits the skills of his players.

We do not and did not have lockdown DBs, for one thing. He knew that and still did nothing to change how he left them exposed and on an island that they could never defend, much less having Joe Schmidt (not to be confused with NFL player Joe Schmidt) play as much as he did.

The man will not change or alter his scheme in any way, because as has been mentioned by another poster (not me, mind you), he is much more content bashing a square peg into a round hole.

He needs to either re-tool--NOT scrap--his entire philosophy and work on finding a way to mold it to the players' strengths, not his wants, or he needs to be fired.

Kelly was able to do that on offense, mostly, particularly with Rees at QB. And now, we run an offense that is similar to--but not the same as--what he ran at Cincy.

BVG needs to do the same or he should pack his bags.

It is not that hard to see that BVG needs to change or be let go.

 

[Luckylucci]

Interesting question with Coughlin stepping down as HC of the Giants.. does getting rid of BVG via BK leaving for the NFL satisfy the board? I am confident no, but figured I'd pose the question.

No, I think losing BK would set us back too much for that trade off. Bk has seemed to do a good job with crisis management during his tenure, overall that is. He's able to look at everything from a big picture perspective and figure out what he needs to dedicate more time to. Usually that brings success. I wholeheartedly think the defense can continue to get better with BVG as the DC, it will just be less about him and more about outside input.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Who would you give a chance to? There are some guys out there I liked and mentioned before (Aranda, Brown, etc.) that have been snatched up already.

This is just my opinion, but I think that we are going to be scoring a lot of points going forward. I think there are plenty of guys out there that could teach a sound, simple defense that could slow the other team down, if not break any records.

 

[Irish#1]

I agree with this generally. So my question would be, do we really think BVG brings enough to the table that he justifies not giving someone else a chance?

Continuity is huge. Get rid of BVG and you start all over. He has to be given another year to show improvement.

 

[kmoose]

It is blatantly obvious that BVG has settled on one way of doing things and will never ever change that way of doing things or even mold his system into something that actually fits the skills of his players.

No. What's blatantly obvious is that none of us here on this board were in the meetings, practices, and/or film studies, to know exactly what changes may have been tried, and just not worked. Like when he inserted Drue Tranquil for Max Redfield against Georgia Tech, to get a better run support safety on the field. But who knows how many tweaks he might have tried during practice, but had to scrap because the guys just weren't getting it, or because it just didn't work?

It is not that hard to see that BVG needs to change or be let go.

What's plain to see is that the defense needs to get better, or a change will have to be made. What's also plain is that we don't have the credentials to tell VanGorder anything about how to do his job.