Shooting at Mohammed "art" contest

[greyhammer90]

I'd go much further than that. America is a large, diverse and increasingly polarized nation. The politics of Oregon and Texas are so different partly because their cultures are based on inherently irreconcilable visions of The Good. That's fine as long as we take federalism seriously and allow each state to govern itself to the greatest extent possible. But our mandarins in DC haven't been content to do that for decades, and they keep trying to govern this massive country with one-size-fits-all policy. Continuing to do so is only going to accelerate our decline.

Ok. I just wanted to be sure you meant it the way I thought you meant it.

 

[Grahambo]

I see a clear lack of understanding in regards to terrorism by some.

 

[Domina Nostra]

I'd go much further than that. America is a large, diverse and increasingly polarized nation. The politics of Oregon and Texas are so different partly because their cultures are based on inherently irreconcilable visions of The Good. That's fine as long as we take federalism seriously and allow each state to govern itself to the greatest extent possible. But our mandarins in DC haven't been content to do that for decades, and they keep trying to govern this massive country with one-size-fits-all policy. Continuing to do so is only going to accelerate our decline.

To me, this is the only way forward for the "Union." I just can't see a perpetual arrangemnt where the open-minded, democracy-loving 52% imposing thier view on the other 150,000,000 person minority.

I think eventually people are going to ask why other people need ot be ruling their lives. Just because we can all agree that we need a federal goverenment to achieve certain goods doesn't mean we have to agree on everything top to bottom.

How about a little "live and let live" from the "live and let live" crowd?

 

[BobbyMac]

I'd go much further than that. America is a large, diverse and increasingly polarized nation. The politics of Oregon and Texas are so different partly because their cultures are based on inherently irreconcilable visions of The Good. That's fine as long as we take federalism seriously and allow each state to govern itself to the greatest extent possible. But our mandarins in DC haven't been content to do that for decades, and they keep trying to govern this massive country with one-size-fits-all policy. Continuing to do so is only going to accelerate our decline.

Bingo. Why does the far right own this position? Why can't people from all parts of the spectrum see that this makes sense?

.

 

[ulukinatme]

FYI, here's the woman that setup the art show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TG7DTOkU-s

She looks a bit rude, I like

 

[ulukinatme]

From the Shag, insert Bowden "Awww, they're good keeds" here:

Aaaaand there it is, he was a good kid who just wanted to murder infidels. Peacefully.
“Kids adore him. He is always talking to the kids on their level, throwing a ball around with them and playing games with them,”
ISSUU - Muslim Voice Feb 2010 by Arabesque Media & Breek Media

 

[Domina Nostra]

Bingo. Why does the far right own this position? Why can't people from all parts of the spectrum see that this makes sense?

.

Because they don't want to co-exist. They want everyone to get on-board with their vision, and they think they can impose it through existing institutions.

 

[BobbyMac]

Because they don't want to co-exist. They want everyone to get on-board with their vision, and they think they can impose it through existing institutions.

When you believe and participate in a big federal gov't it forces you TO co-exist. If they don't want to co-exist they can achieve that only at the state level... and dominate like Mormons do in Utah.

.

 

[GoIrish41]

So you blame them for what they did?

I do. I also blame those who purposely provoked them, who knew what would happen with this event (which is why they hired SWAT Teams as security), and they went forward with it anyway. I'm just saying that there are extremists on both sides of this issue.

 

[BobbyMac]

I do. I also blame those who purposely provoked them, who knew what would happen with this event (which is why they hired SWAT Teams as security), and they went forward with it anyway. I'm just saying that there are extremists on both sides of this issue.

How do you fare with these types of conversations in person?

Someday when you are a mature adult with children to worry about and an experienced view of how the world really works... and how that world views you as an American, you'll change your tune. Bookmark this and look at in 20 years.

.

 

[ulukinatme]

I do. I also blame those who purposely provoked them, who knew what would happen with this event (which is why they hired SWAT Teams as security), and they went forward with it anyway. I'm just saying that there are extremists on both sides of this issue.

How are the people putting on the event extremists? They're having an art show, they're not imposing or forcing their beliefs on anyone. It was a peaceful art show that Islam extremists came to disrupt with violence. The SWAT team was there for protection, not to go out on offense.

 

[pkt77242]

Bingo. Why does the far right own this position? Why can't people from all parts of the spectrum see that this makes sense?

.

What do you mean by far right?

 

[BobbyMac]

The two shooters were from Terrorist Ave in Phoenix a few blocks down the road from where the 9/11 terrorist Hani Hanjour lived.

I had employees who lived in Autumn Ridge where these latest two lived.

.

 

[greyhammer90]

How do you fare with these types of conversations in person?

Someday when you are a mature adult with children to worry about and an experienced view of how the world really works... and how that world views you as an American, you'll change your tune. Bookmark this and look at in 20 years.

.

I disagree with him, but this is a pretty dick way to invalidate someone else's opinion.

 

[GoIrish41]

How are the people putting on the event extremists? They're having an art show, they're not imposing or forcing their beliefs on anyone. It was a peaceful art show that Islam extremists came to disrupt with violence. The SWAT team was there for protection, not to go out on offense.

The southern poverty law center designated them as a hate group. They have a reputation for provoking Muslims. They let their ideology put people in danger by provoking others who were likely to respond violently. They did this knowingly. That is pretty extreme in my book. If you believe this event was simply an art show I don't know what to tell you.

 

[BobbyMac]

What do you mean by far right?

Just that, the far right, (non-pejorative).

.

 

[BobbyMac]

I disagree with him, but this is a pretty dick way to invalidate someone else's opinion.

Hmm. Maybe so.
.
.
.

 

[Irish YJ]

Is there some island we can drop both the extremist and cartoonist on?

 

[GoIrish41]

How do you fare with these types of conversations in person?

Someday when you are a mature adult with children to worry about and an experienced view of how the world really works... and how that world views you as an American, you'll change your tune. Bookmark this and look at in 20 years.

.

You think IE will still be around when I am 70? Maybe my grandchildren can open the e- time capsule with me. I do fine in in- person chats with folks who are open minded and not convinced they are right no matter how compelling the evidence to the contrary. Most people are not ok with this event and its organizers and recognize their provocation but I guess they are not as mature as you.

 

[BobbyMac]

You think IE will still be around when I am 70? Maybe my grandchildren can open the e- time capsule with me. I do fine in in- person chats with folks who are open minded and not convinced they are right no matter how compelling the evidence to the contrary. Most people are not ok with this event and its organizers and recognize their provocation but I guess they are not as mature as you.

You're 50??????? Nevermind.

.

 

[Domina Nostra]

When you believe and participate in a big federal gov't it forces you TO co-exist. If they don't want to co-exist they can achieve that only at the state level... and dominate like Mormons do in Utah.

.

So basically top down systems like the Soviet Union or the People's Republic of China represent coexistence, whereas the current situation in the U.S., where places like Utah, Nevada, Colorado, and California can disagree, represents unacceptable diversity?

That was pretty much my point.

 

[GoIrish41]

You're 50??????? Nevermind.

.

Let me guess ... You are, what, 16?

 

[kmoose]

So you blame them(the shooters) for what they did?

I do. I also blame those who purposely provoked them, who knew what would happen with this event (which is why they hired SWAT Teams as security), and they went forward with it anyway. I'm just saying that there are extremists on both sides of this issue.

I think this is where the disconnect comes into play:

...lets not place the blame on the "Islamic extremists" when the event organizers were antagonizing them...

I'm sure you didn't mean that literally, but that is probably why you are getting such backlash. However, you have clarified your position, so people should probably just let it go.

 

[pkt77242]

Just that, the far right, (non-pejorative).

.

Well that was as clear as mud. Having said that, the far right wants things mandated at the Federal level just as much as Democrats do, the difference being what they mandated. How many times have you seen the far right try to pass laws or amendments about gay marriage, abortion, etc. The truth is that both sides generally want to do it, they are more like opposite sides of the same coin.

 

[GoIrish41]

I've got a problem with any religion that entices believers to kill non-believers. I've got no problem with peaceful practitioners of Islam, but there's no room in civilized society for the extremists. You can't tiptoe around these people and pray that you don't offend them in some way, because they'll eventually be offended by something and want to take out their problems on innocents to make a point. Quite frankly it's scary that these people ARE citizens of this country, their ideals don't fit with our laws nor our society. You can't kill or incite violence to force your will on others. The art contest was no more disgusting than any other medium that satirizes religion. Just because Kevin Smith directed Dogma doesn't mean I think the movie was disgusting. I can actually appreciate some of the holes they poke in the Catholic faith. Muslim extremists can't do that, they're fanatical devotion forces them to do inflict pain on others in retaliation.

Let's not pretend being a Muslim predisposes one to extremism or that there are literally hundreds or thousands of examples of this in our history. Extremists come in many stripes. IMO one of those stripes look a lot like organizers of this event. We cannot deport every Muslim in the country to avoid the potential that someone may do something in the future based on religion can we. I mean that goes against absolutely everything we are as a country, right? So if we truly have this fear wouldn't the best course of action be to stop poking these dormant terrorist with a stick? It is just irresponsible and puts people at risk! Does't that indifference to things like public safety make them a little dangerous too?

 

[phgreek]

Well that was as clear as mud. Having said that, the far right wants things mandated at the Federal level just as much as Democrats do, the difference being what they mandated. How many times have you seen the far right try to pass laws or amendments about gay marriage, abortion, etc. The truth is that both sides generally want to do it, they are more like opposite sides of the same coin.

mmmm...I think in the example you gave, if you gave the far right the ability to deal with that issue at the state, they'd much prefer it. I think they are always FORCED to deal with such things at the Federal level. I agree there are things the right engages in that are inherently top down...just not on board with the example...

 

[IrishSteelhead]

So if we truly have this fear wouldn't the best course of action be to stop poking these dormant terrorist with a stick? It is just irresponsible and puts people at risk! Does't that indifference to things like public safety make them a little dangerous too?

A person that shoots at people when offended isn't "dormant" IMO. They are a lit fuse, and will go off one way or another.

 

[Booslum31]

A person that shoots at people when offended isn't "dormant" IMO. They are a lit fuse, and will go off one way or another.

This!

 

[Whiskeyjack]

How many times have you seen the far right try to pass laws or amendments about gay marriage, abortion, etc. The truth is that both sides generally want to do it, they are more like opposite sides of the same coin.

When was the last time the GOP proposed a bill that would ban gay marriage or abortion at the Federal level? And it's telling that your idea of the American "far right" is exemplified by two issues that are important to many religious conservatives, who are completely marginalized in the GOP at the national level. Do you honestly believe your political view represents some kind of broad American consensus?

Let's not pretend being a Muslim predisposes one to extremism or that there are literally hundreds or thousands of examples of this in our history. Extremists come in many stripes. IMO one of those stripes look a lot like organizers of this event. We cannot deport every Muslim in the country to avoid the potential that someone may do something in the future based on religion can we. I mean that goes against absolutely everything we are as a country, right? So if we truly have this fear wouldn't the best course of action be to stop poking these dormant terrorist with a stick? It is just irresponsible and puts people at risk! Does't that indifference to things like public safety make them a little dangerous too?

So what's your policy prescription to stop this from happening in the future? Blasphemy laws? And would you willing to extend those protections to Christianity as well as Islam?

 

[greyhammer90]

Does't that indifference to things like public safety make them a little dangerous too?

No. This logic is analogous to the "she was asking for it" rape defense.