Shooting at Mohammed "art" contest

dshans

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A fatwa has been issued to send nasty chain e-mails to all IE infidels!

I got one just this morning!

Fool that I am, I clicked on the enclosed link.

First up was a Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam website. I think it was "Peace Train" something or other.

A link there led me to another website, "Salman Rushdie Will Die."



Then things got weird ...
 

connor_in

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A fatwa has been issued to send nasty chain e-mails to all IE infidels! YOU WON'T BELIEVE WHAT HAPPENED NEXT: CLICK HERE!!!]
 
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GoIrish41

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I couldn't agree less with the reasoning in many posts on this subject.

People, Christians and atheists included, who shoot other people for insulting them have absolutely no place in this country. There is no "he was asking for it" defense to attempted murder. If you want to kill someone for religious reasons, go somewhere else.

Sure the stupid program was needlessly provocative. But that is what peaceful protests are for.

Nobody is using the "he was asking for it" defense or even defending the shooters at all. But, I believe purposeful antagonism and lack of civility led to this shooting. Everybody knows that Muslims are offended by this sort of thing, and putting on a public display to spit in their faces is irrisponsible, mean spirited, ignorant and demonstrates an outright contempt for the religious beliefs of people -- many of them citizens of this country. These actions had a direct impact on causing the shooters to react the way they did. And while I am not defending anyone for committing any act of violence, I am condemning people who clearly put on an event to piss people off for no good reason. Free speech is one thing, actively seeking to push people to violence is another. This art contest was disgusting, and the organizers certainly have more than a small share ofthe blame for this incident.
 

connor_in

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Its OK to spit in someone's eye, but not into the eye of the bad, angry drunk?
 

kmoose

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Nobody is using the "he was asking for it" defense or even defending the shooters at all. But, I believe purposeful antagonism and lack of civility led to this shooting. Everybody knows that Muslims are offended by this sort of thing, and putting on a public display to spit in their faces is irrisponsible, mean spirited, ignorant and demonstrates an outright contempt for the religious beliefs of people -- many of them citizens of this country. These actions had a direct impact on causing the shooters to react the way they did. And while I am not defending anyone for committing any act of violence, I am condemning people who clearly put on an event to piss people off for no good reason. Free speech is one thing, actively seeking to push people to violence is another. This art contest was disgusting, and the organizers certainly have more than a small share ofthe blame for this incident.

Do you believe that these two guys were justified in shooting up this event?
 

Domina Nostra

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Nobody is using the "he was asking for it" defense or even defending the shooters at all. But, I believe purposeful antagonism and lack of civility led to this shooting. Everybody knows that Muslims are offended by this sort of thing, and putting on a public display to spit in their faces is irrisponsible, mean spirited, ignorant and demonstrates an outright contempt for the religious beliefs of people -- many of them citizens of this country. These actions had a direct impact on causing the shooters to react the way they did. And while I am not defending anyone for committing any act of violence, I am condemning people who clearly put on an event to piss people off for no good reason. Free speech is one thing, actively seeking to push people to violence is another. This art contest was disgusting, and the organizers certainly have more than a small share ofthe blame for this incident.

Honest question. What do you think about South Park, Sarah Silverman, atheist erected "Satanist" monuments, etc.? Do you really think that public discourse should generally avoid "pissing off" religious people? I think that makes perfect sense, but the list of blasphemies leveled against the Christian God everyday are routinely categorized as free speech. Society tells Christians that they are not entitled to a veto on such things, that was a remnant of a past era. Now, suddenly, Islam is treated differently... why? (because they are a minority? because they are intimidating? because they are not Christian?) And who gets to set the limits of what makes a religion angry? That can get pretty out of hand, pretty quickly, as evidenced in many parts of the Muslim world. Maybe there is a lot of wiggle room in your "no good reason" qualification?

IMO, if someone can be "pushed to violence" by a cartoon contest, they are not compatible with modern Western society. I am not embracing everything about modern Western society, but that is a pretty basic starting point of democratic society. You can't pretend to embrace the American/European worldview and militant Islam at the same time.

If the sole point of this contest was to show that there are people in America who will try to kill in response to such events, I think the event served an important purpose. I am not sure many would be fine knowing that violent extremists live among them, but they will be OK as long as they don't cause offense.

I think it has to be admitted that some forms of belief (those that condone violence as a response to speech) are not compatible with an open society.
 
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ulukinatme

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Nobody is using the "he was asking for it" defense or even defending the shooters at all. But, I believe purposeful antagonism and lack of civility led to this shooting. Everybody knows that Muslims are offended by this sort of thing, and putting on a public display to spit in their faces is irrisponsible, mean spirited, ignorant and demonstrates an outright contempt for the religious beliefs of people -- many of them citizens of this country. These actions had a direct impact on causing the shooters to react the way they did. And while I am not defending anyone for committing any act of violence, I am condemning people who clearly put on an event to piss people off for no good reason. Free speech is one thing, actively seeking to push people to violence is another. This art contest was disgusting, and the organizers certainly have more than a small share ofthe blame for this incident.

I've got a problem with any religion that entices believers to kill non-believers. I've got no problem with peaceful practitioners of Islam, but there's no room in civilized society for the extremists. You can't tiptoe around these people and pray that you don't offend them in some way, because they'll eventually be offended by something and want to take out their problems on innocents to make a point. Quite frankly it's scary that these people ARE citizens of this country, their ideals don't fit with our laws nor our society. You can't kill or incite violence to force your will on others. The art contest was no more disgusting than any other medium that satirizes religion. Just because Kevin Smith directed Dogma doesn't mean I think the movie was disgusting. I can actually appreciate some of the holes they poke in the Catholic faith. Muslim extremists can't do that, they're fanatical devotion forces them to do inflict pain on others in retaliation.
 

Domina Nostra

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I've got a problem with any religion that entices believers to kill non-believers. I've got no problem with peaceful practitioners of Islam, but there's no room in civilized society for the extremists. You can't tiptoe around these people and pray that you don't offend them in some way, because they'll eventually be offended by something and want to take out their problems on innocents to make a point. Quite frankly it's scary that these people ARE citizens of this country, their ideals don't fit with our laws nor our society. You can't kill or incite violence to force your will on others. The art contest was no more disgusting than any other medium that satirizes religion. Just because Kevin Smith directed Dogma doesn't mean I think the movie was disgusting. I can actually appreciate some of the holes they poke in the Catholic faith. Muslim extremists can't do that, they're fanatical devotion forces them to do inflict pain on others in retaliation.

I'm not sure you have to be open-minded to 10 cent criticism of a faith to not kill anyone. I'm pretty sure that Hasidic and most Orthodox Jews in New York think that the portrayal of Judaism by Jews in popular culture is a disgrace, and that our culture in general is debased, but they don't kill anyone.
 

ulukinatme

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I'm not sure you have to be open-minded to 10 cent criticism of a faith to not kill anyone. I'm pretty sure that Hasidic and most Orthodox Jews in New York think that the portrayal of Judaism by Jews in popular culture is a disgrace, and that our culture in general is debased, but they don't kill anyone.

Yes, there certainly are satires and depictions of religion that are disgusting, some more than others. Dogma isn't a great example. My point was that most other major religions don't act out on these offenses. Christians, Jews, Budhists, etc. These religions will peacefully protest, but Islam has been known for violence (Regardless whether the extremists are a minority, they're a very vocal and prevalent minority).
 

Ndaccountant

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Yes, there certainly are satires and depictions of religion that are disgusting, some more than others. Dogma isn't a great example. My point was that most other major religions don't act out on these offenses. Christians, Jews, Budhists, etc. These religions will peacefully protest, but Islam has been known for violence (Regardless whether the extremists are a minority, they're a very vocal and prevalent minority).

Interestingly enough, co-workers and friends that are Mormon liked and embraced The Book of Mormon (it was really a good show IMO).
 

Domina Nostra

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Yes, there certainly are satires and depictions of religion that are disgusting, some more than others. Dogma isn't a great example. My point was that most other major religions don't act out on these offenses. Christians, Jews, Budhists, etc. These religions will peacefully protest, but Islam has been known for violence (Regardless whether the extremists are a minority, they're a very vocal and prevalent minority).

I agree completely. It's a good point.

Interestingly enough, co-workers and friends that are Mormon liked and embraced The Book of Mormon (it was really a good show IMO).

I agree that this is interesting. What is the take away? The show was not insulting to Mormons? The show was insulting, but still true?
 

ulukinatme

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Interestingly enough, co-workers and friends that are Mormon liked and embraced The Book of Mormon (it was really a good show IMO).

So I heard, I wanted to see it. From what I heard it was less about making people laugh about Mormons and more about making people laugh about religion in general. I like a lot of Trey Parker and Matt Stone stuff though outside of South Park. We used to watch one of their first films "Cannibals: The Musical" all the time and "Orgazmo" :laugh:
 

greyhammer90

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So I heard, I wanted to see it. From what I heard it was less about making people laugh about Mormons and more about making people laugh about religion in general. I like a lot of Trey Parker and Matt Stone stuff though outside of South Park. We used to watch one of their first films "Cannibals: The Musical" all the time and "Orgazmo" :laugh:

Team America: World Police will be considered a classic in 100 years. Best skewering of US foreign policy in the aftermath of 9/11.
 

Ndaccountant

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I agree completely. It's a good point.



I agree that this is interesting. What is the take away? The show was not insulting to Mormons? The show was insulting, but still true?

The show mocked the Mormons (and basically all missionary work). Instead of the religion being outraged, they used it to their advantage (hell, the church took out advertisements in the playbill).

If they wanted to, they could have been offended, but they didn't. Why didn't they shoot our play goers? Am I an instigator because I chose to attend one of the shows?
 

irishroo

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Among the extremeists in this situation are the morons who put on this event. Their actions were designed to trigger a response. They got one. I hope they are proud of themselves. Glad to hear everyone is OK, but lets not place the blame on the "Islamic extremists" when the event organizers were antagonizing them to prove some arcane point about free speech. Freedoms come with responsibilities.

Whole bunch of parallels between this argument and the argument that some (crazy) people make regarding female rape victims bringing it on themselves by "dressing provocatively" etc. Both are completely ridiculous
 

Domina Nostra

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The show mocked the Mormons (and basically all missionary work). Instead of the religion being outraged, they used it to their advantage (hell, the church took out advertisements in the playbill).

If they wanted to, they could have been offended, but they didn't. Why didn't they shoot our play goers? Am I an instigator because I chose to attend one of the shows?

There is a lot mixed together here.

I think it's OK to be outraged by outrageous, profane, sacriligous things. Some things are sacred. If a show mocked your wife or mother, and shot a film that made her into foul-mouthed, dishonest, sex-crazed, materialistic, fool that would do anything for a martini, shouldn't you be offended? "Offended" does not mean violent, though.

I think the reason Muslims get offended so easily is because they really believe it. Black people, women, and homsexuals seem to all be easily offended (as groups at least), as are many people on their behalf. Why? Because they take those identities and the injustices they percieve very seriously.

Most of us kind of fit religion into a nice, tidy easy to deal with box. We aren't really concerned enough about to get that offended, except in a "no one makes fun of my family except my family" kind of way. In other words, we are mistaking our religious indiffernece for open-mindedness.

As far as your being an instigator, I am not going on in your head, but you basically sent out the signal, "I don't really care if this offends Mormons." You have Mormon firends, so i sounds like it was not a matter of hatred or a desire to offind. People aren't afraid of offending Mormons; it is both PC (because they are generally conservative whites) and Mormons aren't scary as a group.
 
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TDHeysus

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Killing ppl because you read it in a book like the Bible, or Quran makes about the same amount of sense of killing ppl because you read it in Curious George Goes the Hospital.

They better not hold a Curious George drawing contest....The Man in the Yellow Hat just might come out blastin'
 

GoIrish41

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Do you think America should aim at peaceful co-existence with men like the shooters?

Do you think the Chalie Hebdo staff was guilty of the same incivility?

I think we should try approaches that don't make them so angry they want to shoot in the first place. Perhaps not starting wars under false pretenses. Stop meddling in Middle East affairs. The Chalie Hebdo stuff is free speech, but where did it get them? Mabye some folks would still be alive if they showed a little more civility. And before anyone says otherwise that does not mean that I am advocating what the shooters did in France or in Texas.
 
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greyhammer90

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I think we should try approaches that don't make them so angry they want to shoot in the first place. Perhaps not starting wars under false pretenses. Stop meddling in Middle East affairs. The Chalie Hebdo stuff is free speech, but where did it get them? Mabye some folks would still be alive if they showed a little more civility. And before anyone says otherwide that does not mean that I am advocating what the shooters did in France or in Texas.

I understand that you're not advocating what they did, but you are attempting to rationalize these extremists' views by putting them in perspective. This is a misguided effort on any intelligent group of people that have grown up in a individualized western culture.

You say "the Charlie Hebdo stuff is free speech, but..." as though this a throwaway line. It's not. You cannot rationalize/mitigate/or pass blame under any circumstance where a group of people decide that violence is an acceptable response to Constitutionally protected free speech. The acceptable response to such speech is your dissenting voice, not violence. No amount of offensive behavior, political action or foreign wars can change this. It's a fundamental part of our expectations of individuals being a part of our culture.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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The best articles I've read on this subject (blasphemy in the West) were both written by The Week's Michael Brendan Dougherty earlier this year after the Charlie Hebdo shooting. The first is titled "The Charlie Hebdo massacre, and secularism's problem with Islam":

Terrorists slaughtered a roomful of French cartoonists in Paris yesterday.

That sentence is so absurd and appalling it is difficult to accept as a statement of fact. The murderers of the staff of Charlie Hebdo, a satirical magazine that had frequently lampooned the Prophet Muhammad and Islam, reportedly shouted, "Allah is revenged." So as France mourns its dead, Western Europe is once again forced to consider how to preserve the norms of a secular society in which religion can be mocked. This is all the more difficult when the most vital religious force in that society is a poor, devout, and mostly immigrant minority.

We often talk about secularism as if it is an obvious principle that can be easily applied to all nations, governments, and religions. It is anything but. Attempts by Westerners to impose the ideals of secularism on Muslim immigrants have only exposed the fact that restrictions on religion cannot be applied with a broad brush.

France, in particular, has bent over backward to prove that its version of secularism is blind. The country banned the wearing of "large crosses" in schools and public institutions to give a veneer of impartiality to its real goal of banning Islamic veils in the same places. Confronted with an Islamic tradition that gave offense, France invented a Christian analogue to ban along with it, a phony gesture at neutrality that has been imitated elsewhere.

But secularism is a political, legal, and cultural project that goes back centuries, with roots in the "two swords" doctrine of medieval Christianity. The target of modern secularism was (and still is, really) the Christian Church, which it sees as the instigator and vehicle of majoritarian prejudice. Secularism aims to prevent Europe's wars of religion from ever happening again, and to contain the power of Europe's churches when it comes to politics and culture.

It encourages a special disgust with religious violence in history. Ditto religious motivations in democratic politics.

Modern secularism creates a taboo against distinguishing between religions. To judge one in any way superior to another is a step away from enlightenment and civilization, and a step toward the Thirty Years War. You are allowed to mock and hate Islam, but must make a show of doing it "equally" to other religions. You are also allowed to respect religion, but the same principle applies. This brigade of pieties exists to prevent acts of hatred and to stifle prejudice, but it inadvertently guards against any intelligent conversation about religion.

After yesterday's attack, many liberals rushed to affirm the right to offend and to blaspheme. They allied themselves with the legacy of Christopher Hitchens, who could write acidly about Islam but also played with the rather illiberal idea of categorizing religious education as child abuse. These voices are leaning hard on the secularist idea that religious people cannot be allowed a veto on free speech, even in an age in which we discuss offering trigger warnings to those far more privileged than the men in French banlieues.

Other progressives feel that mocking Muslims is a form of racism. Or, more circumspectly, that the cartoonists of Charlie Hedbo were somehow unsporting. This says a lot about secularism: The point is to make sure France isn't ruled by contraception-deploring Ursuline nuns, not to bring a minority to heel. Secularism is not about religion per se, but a tool for rearranging the distribution of power.

The taboos of secularism interlock in other odd ways. Modern Western secularists feel no anxiety whatsoever when they encounter harsh criticism and satire of Christianity. But if you offer a particularly barbed remark about Islam among the enlightened, someone will ask you to politely agree that Christianity is just as bad. And ironically, this instinct to protect the powerless is a leftover instinct of Christian civilization, which put sayings like "the last shall be first, and the first shall be last" at the heart of its worship and moral imagination.

We used to say of comedians, "He can make that joke because he's Jewish." In this respect, the Western world's comfort with attacking Christianity is an inadvertent admission that Christianity is "our" religion. And so it elicits from us none of the respect, deference, or fear we give to strangers. Viewed this way, secularism looks less like universal principle than a moral and theological critique derived from Christian sources and pitched back at Christian authorities.

The great irony of Islam's continued clashes with the Western way of life — whether its widespread riots over a YouTube video or the murderous actions of a crazed minority— is that it has revealed, to the surprise of everyone but Pope Emeritus Benedict, that modern secularism is a kind of epiphenomenon of Christendom.

To borrow from G.K. Chesterton, secularism is the second fermentation, where the wine of Christianity becomes the vinegar of laïcité. Force either of them into the mouth of a Muslim guest, and he will spit it out.

The second is titled "The Charlie Hebdo attacks show that not all blasphemies are equal":

After the murder of Charlie Hebdo's cartoonists, pundits have tried to suss out where blasphemy fits into the social life of the West. Is it a necessary project for shocking Bronze Age fanatics into modernity? Is it a way of defending a free-wheeling liberal culture from the censorship of violent men? Or is it abusively uncivil? When directed at a minority religion, is it racist? Is it an abuse of freedom of speech, the equivalent of a constant harassment that invites a punch in the nose?

We have been told that Charlie Hebdo is an "equal opportunity offender." And in one sense that is obviously true. It drew unflattering pictures of Jesus, of Jews, and of the Prophet Muhammad. The spirit of the magazine was anarchic, atheistic, and left-wing. As Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry points out, it was a very French thing, anti-clerical and Rabelaisian.

But not all blasphemies are equal, because religions are not analogous. A gesture aimed at one can cause an eruption of outrage, but when offered to another it produces a shrug. The intensity of reaction may be determined by the religion's comfort with modernity, or by the history of its adherents. Western Christians are raised in pluralist, tolerant, and diverse cultures, and in powerful nations. Muslims experience the bad side of discrimination as immigrants, and come from cultures that have been humiliated by colonialism, autocracy, and Western incursion. But that doesn't explain all of it.

Pissing on a Bible is similar to pissing on a Koran only as a chemical reaction of urea and pulp. As gestures of desecration they mean entirely different things. The challah bread eaten in Jewish homes on the Sabbath and the Catholic Eucharist both have a symbolic relation to the manna from heaven in the book of Exodus, but trampling on one is not the same as the other, and would inspire very different reactions. Likewise, Charlie Hebdo's images are offered from an anarchic and particularly French anti-clerical spirit, but they are received entirely differently as blasphemies by Christianity and Islam.

After the Charlie Hebdo massacre, I tried to think of what kind of blasphemy aimed at my own faith would bring out illiberal reactions in me. The infamous Piss Christ of Andres Serrano barely raises my pulse. Although the pictured crucifix reminds me of one I would kiss in worship on Good Friday, I agree with the artist Maureen Mullarkey that it is trivially easy to avoid taking the publicity-and-money-and-status-generating offense it so desperately sought.

But a Black Mass — a satanic parody of the Catholic Mass, in which a consecrated host stolen from a Catholic Church is ritually desecrated — would touch something else in me. I followed the news about proposed Black Masses at Harvard and Oklahoma City intensely in 2014. I monitored the reactions of local bishops. And I thought more highly of Tulsa's Bishop Slattery for his tougher posture. I admired even more the renegade Traditionalist Society of St. Pius X, which organized a march and produced a beautiful video explaining the offense of a Black Mass, and why Catholics would seek to make reparation before God for the offense given by others.

Freddie deBoer says that those defending the practice of blasphemy are arguing against a shadow and doing brave poses against a null threat: "None of them think that, in response to this attack, we or France or any other industrialized nation is going to pass a bill declaring criticism of Islam illegal."

Not only does this ignore the chilling effect violence has on free speech, it is also just wrong. In 2006, the British government of Tony Blair asked for a vote on a law "against incitement to religious hatred." It was a law whose political support came overwhelmingly from Muslims.

Labour MP Khalid Mahmood argued that one of the virtues of the law was that it would have allowed the government to edit Salman Rushdie's work. Luckily, the House of Lords insisted on a revision that would exempt "discussion, criticism, or expressions of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult, or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents" from the law, rendering it toothless.

But if I thought about it, I understood the MP's reaction. He hoped that a law against incitement could function as a de facto blasphemy law. I hoped last year that laws against the petty theft of "bread" from a Church could be enforced to prevent the Black Masses.

It often seems the debate over the value of blasphemy is determined by what people fear the most. Do they fear the growth of an Islamic sub-culture within the West that threatens the gains of secularism, religious toleration, feminism, and gay rights? Then blast away. Or do they fear that the majority culture, like Western imperialism itself, is driving Muslims into poverty, despair, and a cultural isolation that encourages fundamentalism? Well, then be careful, circumspect, and polite.

Last week, I suggested that Europe's secularism was aimed at Christianity, and that in some respects secularism was a kind of genetic mutation within the body of Christendom. Charlie Hebdo's kind of blasphemy was a Christian kind of blasphemy. Christianity makes icons, and Hebdo draws mustaches and testicles across them. It pokes at the pretension of religious leaders. This is a kind of blasphemy that Matt Taibbi identifies with "our way of life."

But what if drawing a cartoon of Muhammad is not, theologically speaking, like drawing a parody of Jesus? What if it is more like desecrating the Eucharist, something I think Charlie Hebdo's editors would never do?

Obviously there are debates within Islam about what God demands from believers, unbelievers, and earthly authorities. Just as there are debates about what the Eucharist is within Christianity. And, yes, sometimes state pressure can effect a religious revolution. (Look to the Mormon church and the United States). But Western pressure seems to push Muslims away from liberality.

Fazlur Rahman and other Islamic scholars point out that when Islam was an ascendant and powerful world force it often found the intellectual resources to "Islamicize" the philosophies and cultures it encountered outside its Arabian cradle. But once Islam was humiliated and reduced on the geopolitical stage, these more daring and expansive medieval projects were abandoned. Other modernizing and liberal efforts of jurists like Muhammad Abduh have proven unpopular. Instead, the great modernist projects of Wahhabist and Salafist fundamentalism is what colors movements from the Taliban to the Islamic State.

When Westerners read the editorial from radical cleric Anjem Choudary, they are tempted to think he is stupid for asking why "why in this case did the French government allow the magazine Charlie Hebdo to continue to provoke Muslims...?"

"That's not how it works here," we want to reply. But Choudary's view that the state authority is responsible for the moral and spiritual condition of the nation is quintessentially Islamic. It is a reflection of the fact that Islam's great debates are centered on jurisprudence, on the right order of the ummah. This is very different from Christianity where the primary debates center around orthodox faith and morals withing the Church. In an odd way, Choudary's complaint against France is a sign of assimilation. He expects France to assimilate to this vision of Islam. He offers France's leaders the same complaint radical Muslim reformers always offer to lax Sultans and Caliphs.

To ask Muslims to respond peacefully to Charlie Hebdo's provocations makes absolute sense to me, because I want to continue to live by the norms set by a detente between secularism and Christian churches. I suspect many (perhaps most) Muslims want the same. But those Muslims who are faithful to a religious tradition concerned primarily with restoring fidelity to sources from the first three centuries of Islam were not a party to the secularist bargain. And we ought to be aware that we are asking them to live as Christians, and to be insulted like them, too.
 

Ndaccountant

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There is a lot mixed together here.

I think it's OK to be outraged by outrageous, profane, sacriligous things. Some things are sacred. If a show mocked your wife or mother, and shot a film that made her into foul-mouthed, dishonest, sex-crazed, materialistic, fool that would do anything for a martini, shouldn't you be offended? "Offended" does not mean violent, though.

I think the reason Muslims get offended so easily is because they really believe it. Black people, women, and homsexuals seem to all be easily offended (as groups at least), as are many people on their behalf. Why? Because they take those identities and the injustices they percieve very seriously.

Most of us kind of fit religion into a nice, tidy easy to deal with box. We aren't really concerned enough about to get that offended, except in a "no one makes fun of my family except my family" kind of way. In other words, we are mistaking our religious indiffernece for open-mindedness.

As far as your being an instigator, I am not going on in your head, but you basically sent out the signal, "I don't really care if this offends Mormons." You have Mormon firends, so i sounds like it was not a matter of hatred or a desire to offind. People aren't afraid of offending Mormons; it is both PC (because they are generally conservative whites) and Mormons aren't scary as a group.

I think the world would be a much better place if people were comfortable enough in their beliefs and identity to not let others define you by some characteristic (race, religious affiliation, etc). That's the way I have always lived my life. Yes, I understand that this particular stance is easier for me to take given my race, education level, etc. But the point still stands that our actions and how we treat people ultimately define us and if we leave this world a better place. Far be it of me to tell people how they should live their life. Even if I disagree with them to the fullest, it still won't change how I would help them in a time of need. Judge on character.
 

Domina Nostra

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I think we should try approaches that don't make them so angry they want to shoot in the first place. Perhaps not starting wars under false pretenses. Stop meddling in Middle East affairs. The Chalie Hebdo stuff is free speech, but where did it get them? Mabye some folks would still be alive if they showed a little more civility. And before anyone says otherwide that does not mean that I am advocating what the shooters did in France or in Texas.

I know you are not. But you are suggesting that behavior from stupid, yet law abiding citizens is at least one of the proximate causes of the violence. I think what others are arguing is that in OUR civilization, violence is never an acceptable response to words (obvously excluding express threats) or incivility. Such a response is always criminal. So to say that someone's incivility is the cause of someone else's violent criminality is simply to say that the other person does not respect the laws and rules of our culture. Just like those thugs in Paris. Obviosly a naked woman is going to excite some men, but to say she should keep her clothes on so she doesn't get raped is outside of our code of morals. Nothing a woman can say or do can justify her rape on any level--as you obviously agree from everything you've said.

I understand that you're not advocating what they did, but you are attempting to rationalize these extremists' views by putting them in perspective. This is a misguided effort on any intelligent group of people that have grown up in a individualized western culture.

You say "the Charlie Hebdo stuff is free speech, but..." as though this a throwaway line. It's not. You cannot rationalize/mitigate/or pass blame under any circumstance where a group of people decide that violence is an acceptable response to Constitutionally protected free speech. The acceptable response to such speech is your dissenting voice, not violence. No amount of offensive behavior, political action or foreign wars can change this. It's a fundamental part of our expectations of individuals being a part of our culture.

Exactly. That is why there is, in fact, a need to assimilate foreigners into the culture. They bring other, sometimes contradictory assumptions about the ordering of society. They may be better or worse, but they are not always compatible with ours.

I think the world would be a much better place if people were comfortable enough in their beliefs and identity to not let others define you by some characteristic (race, religious affiliation, etc). That's the way I have always lived my life. Yes, I understand that this particular stance is easier for me to take given my race, education level, etc. But the point still stands that our actions and how we treat people ultimately define us and if we leave this world a better place. Far be it of me to tell people how they should live their life. Even if I disagree with them to the fullest, it still won't change how I would help them in a time of need. Judge on character.

How do you avoid a race to the bottom? How does the libertine who wants to walk around naked co-exist with the Orthodox Jew, Muslim, Indian, or Nun? Do the more culturally conservative just have to get over it, which basically makes it impossible for them to live how they see fit? Or does the libertine have to concede that the public square can't always be dictated by the lowest common denominator? Does it change if there is 100,000 Jews and 12 libertines? What about the other way around? Should you be able to have slaves? Indentured servants? Should you be able to kill incompentent elderly in your care? Babies in your womb? Not sure there is much precedent for just societies where people ultimately disagree about fundamental moral issues. A decision not to decide, is a decision nonetheless.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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How do you avoid a race to the bottom? How does the libertine who wants to walk around naked co-exist with the Orthodox Jew, Muslim, Indian, or Nun? Do the more culturally conservative just have to get over it, which basically makes it impossible for them to live how they see fit? Or does the libertine have to concede that the public square can't always be dictated by the lowest common denominator? Does it change if there is 100,000 Jews and 12 libertines? What about the other way around? Should you be able to have slaves? Indentured servants? Should you be able to kill incompentent elderly in your care? Babies in your womb? Not sure there is much precedent for just societies where people ultimately disagree about fundamental moral issues. A decision not to decide, is a decision nonetheless.

That's why federalism is so crucial to America's political future. Neither party cares to defend it, though.
 

greyhammer90

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That's why federalism is so crucial to America's political future. Neither party cares to defend it, though.

I assume you are arguing that leaving more to state government would allow cultures to move to States and effect their state government more than they could at the federal level?
 

Whiskeyjack

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I assume you are arguing that leaving more to state government would allow cultures to move to States and effect their state government more than they could at the federal level?

I'd go much further than that. America is a large, diverse and increasingly polarized nation. The politics of Oregon and Texas are so different partly because their cultures are based on inherently irreconcilable visions of The Good. That's fine as long as we take federalism seriously and allow each state to govern itself to the greatest extent possible. But our mandarins in DC haven't been content to do that for decades, and they keep trying to govern this massive country with one-size-fits-all policy. Continuing to do so is only going to accelerate our decline.
 

Voltaire

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So you blame them for what they did?

If you follow the chain of reasoning, there is no actual logical point being made. It's a wholly circular series of words and phrases that results in nothing actually being said. The closest that there was to a point being made is that the people who put on the art show are more deserving of the blame for there being a violent act committed than the perpetrators of the violent act. That was actually more or less explicitly stated in the earlier post, but then he now says the victims didn't deserve to get shot, so now that he's explicitly refuted his own point, he is effectively stating that he's not making any points whatsoever.

The above is not intended to be some Internet message board diss or personal attack in any way whatsoever, but that's just where the chain of logic actually goes in those statements.

More broadly, what is always both humorous and sad about arguments like this, where folks say that you shouldn't place the blame on the "Islamic extremists" or however you label the violent perpetrators, is that they for some reason are ok with giving a lower bar of responsibility on the individuals committing the violent act. This means that you are assuming that the perpetrators are less capable of being civil because they are either too inherently stupid, lazy, or innately prone to violence to control themselves whereas the party being infringed upon is inherently smarter and in effect basically less of an animal and needs to deal with the fact that the violent party is incapable of acting like a civil adult.

I actually think that when someone says that this is the fault of the violent perpetrator, that the perpetrator should have been able to respect someone else's rights to free speech, that the person saying this is giving the perpetrator more respect than the person saying it's not the perpetrator's fault because by saying the perpetrator should have controlled himself, it implies that the perpetrator is on some level capable of being a civil adult with the mental faculties to refrain from physically attacking another human being over a disagreement, whereas the person saying that it's not the perpetrator's fault is basically implying that the perpetrator was either born as, or devolved into, some animal that is incapable of controlling himself and therefore shouldn't bear any responsibility for his own actions.

One of these viewpoints views the perpetrator as a capable adult that should be able to discern right from wrong, while the other views the perpetrator as being too devolved too control him / herself and that the perpetrator's actions are literally everyone else's responsibility except for the perpetrator's.
 
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