Sep 21 | Michigan State

[Junkhead]

Poor play all the way across the board. Sad sad day.

Zaire Plays this year.

Cam is so average its not even funny.

No chance at 8 and 4

Oklahoma puts up near fifty on us.

Step away from the Ledge.

 

[palinurus]

I am not going back more than a page or two to get a feel for this thread.

I have had a great weekend, thus far. Three thoughts I would like to leave you with.

DeShone Kaiser is a man among boys.

I called back all of my U of M fan friends who's calls we didn't take during the game, right around half time with the Wolverines down 21-7 to the Huskies and Fred Flintstone sputtering into the reporters mike.

If Tommy would ever look at the underneath route, he would double his passing yardage. Mark Mayock pointed that out. Other than that one salient point, Mayock should be fired.

I really don't recall a single short pass on third and short. Mostly long passes and, late in the game, failed runs.

 

[Irish YJ]

Careful...I got neg rep'd by old man mike for saying something similar. Very sensitive fans these days.

Nobody should be neg-rep'd for an impartial opinion, even if it negative. I bleed as much blue, gold, and green as anybody on this board.... but performance and numbers speak volumes that cannot be ignored.

-we are 58th in pts against
-we are 103rd in pts for
-we are 91st in rushing
-we are 39th in QBR
-we are tied with 21 other teams for the 87th spot in sacks
-we are 64th in punt returns
-the only team we beat without drama (Temple) is winless, losing to Fordham and Houston as well.
-we struggled against a poor Purdue team, who got spanked by Wisconsin and Cincinnati, and struggled against an Indiana State team that could likely be beat by a few high schools.
-we were beaten by a team (Michigan) that barely got past a winless Connecticut (lost to Townson) and should have been beat by a crappy Akron team who's only win is against James Madison.
-we struggled at home against a mediocre Michigan State team who really has not played anyone. Decent D, but poor offense.


This is not last year's team that was able to win with defense. I'm not going to count, but pretty sure we're no where close to last year's #s in TDs allowed, rushing TDs allowed, etc..

Go ahead and neg rep fact and data. I'll be cheering on ND next week, overjoyed if we win, crushed if we suffer a loss, but still willing to look at fact and data without a big mug of kool aide in my hand. Something is not quite working this year. We can improve, but nothing wrong with pointing out lack of performance thus far. I bet BK is saying far worse...

 

[palinurus]

Rees had guys wide open in the first half, but was not up to the challenge. Then, we tried to establish a run game. No dice. Then, our offense resorted to jump balls. Awful.

This is true. Kelly himself said so.

 

[palinurus]

Nobody should be neg-rep'd for an impartial opinion, even if it negative. I bleed as much blue, gold, and green as anybody on this board.... but performance and numbers speak volumes that cannot be ignored.

-we are 58th in pts against
-we are 103rd in pts for
-we are 91st in rushing
-we are 39th in QBR
-we are tied with 21 other teams for the 87th spot in sacks
-we are 64th in punt returns
-the only team we beat without drama (Temple) is winless, losing to Fordham and Houston as well.
-we struggled against a poor Purdue team, who got spanked by Wisconsin and Cincinnati, and struggled against an Indiana State team that could likely be beat by a few high schools.
-we were beaten by a team (Michigan) that barely got past a winless Connecticut (lost to Townson) and should have been beat by a crappy Akron team who's only win is against James Madison.
-we struggled at home against a mediocre Michigan State team who really has not played anyone. Decent D, but poor offense.


This is not last year's team that was able to win with defense. I'm not going to count, but pretty sure we're no where close to last year's #s in TDs allowed, rushing TDs allowed, etc..

Go ahead and neg rep fact and data. I'll be cheering on ND next week, overjoyed if we win, crushed if we suffer a loss, but still willing to look at fact and data without a big mug of kool aide in my hand. Something is not quite working this year. We can improve, but nothing wrong with pointing out lack of performance thus far. I bet BK is saying far worse...

This is true.

 

[TheSunIsRising]

Step away from the Ledge.

I'm at the point where I am hoping most of them actually jump. No doubt the team has many issues, but it would be nice to clear these threads of the ridiculous posts (like: burning Malik's redshirt year, no chance of going 5-3 over the remainder of the schedule; etc)

 

[GoIrish41]

Taean is averaging 2.8 ypc (and averaged 3ypc today with a long of 5). Not sure what you saw that made him look pretty good in comparison to Cam (who is averaging 4.3 per carry for the season

Cam has 169 yards of 45 carries and is averaging 3.75 YPC.

Your stats for Folston also don't consider his numbers from today. I haven't checked the box score yet, but that doesn't even matter really. He got positive yards on two carries and then got stuffed 4 yards deep in the backfield and spun out of it to get a few of those yards back. Watch him when he runs the ball. He has speed and shake, and his stoudt enough to run between the tackles. I'm confident that if he had the 45 carries that CAM has, he'd have more than 169 yards. He's never gotten more than a few carries over a couple of minutes and then he's taken out. RBs need to get into a groove to be consistently effective. So far this year, we've seen AMIR, GAIII and Cam get double digit carries in a game, and I've not seen any of them get any sort of consistent mojo going. From the film I saw of him in HS and the admittedly limited action I've seen from him this season, I think he's got something that none of those other three do. Bryant might too, but we aren't going to find out until we see them get some work. What we are doing now isn't working.

 

[palinurus]

I still think this team can gel and will do fairly well. I thought I heard the announcers discuss an interview with Diaco, where Diaco said an issue was that the defense is still looking for a leader to emerge. I don't know, obviously, but that's sort of how they've been playing. But I think that will happen and the play will be upgraded. In that direction, I thought the D Line played much better; Nix was just everywhere with fantastic effort, even as he got double teamed. DOn't know if you noticed, but he even got an assist on a tackle of the WR on a short pass over the middle. That's extremely uncommon and just tremendous effort. I think it was a performance the defense can build on.

 

[stlnd01]

Nobody should be neg-rep'd for an impartial opinion, even if it negative. I bleed as much blue, gold, and green as anybody on this board.... but performance and numbers speak volumes that cannot be ignored.

-we are 58th in pts against
-we are 103rd in pts for
-we are 91st in rushing
-we are 39th in QBR
-we are tied with 21 other teams for the 87th spot in sacks
-we are 64th in punt returns
-the only team we beat without drama (Temple) is winless, losing to Fordham and Houston as well.
-we struggled against a poor Purdue team, who got spanked by Wisconsin and Cincinnati, and struggled against an Indiana State team that could likely be beat by a few high schools.
-we were beaten by a team (Michigan) that barely got past a winless Connecticut (lost to Townson) and should have been beat by a crappy Akron team who's only win is against James Madison.
-we struggled at home against a mediocre Michigan State team who really has not played anyone. Decent D, but poor offense.


This is not last year's team that was able to win with defense. I'm not going to count, but pretty sure we're no where close to last year's #s in TDs allowed, rushing TDs allowed, etc..

Go ahead and neg rep fact and data. I'll be cheering on ND next week, overjoyed if we win, crushed if we suffer a loss, but still willing to look at fact and data without a big mug of kool aide in my hand. Something is not quite working this year. We can improve, but nothing wrong with pointing out lack of performance thus far. I bet BK is saying far worse...

And yet we're 3-1. I'll take it.

The thing about college football is that teams get better and teams get worse and some nights teams are great and other nights they're crap (which is why the transitive property and worrying about what Michigan vs. UConn says about Notre Dame is a waste of time). The great teams find ways to win regardless.
We've been far from great this year, no doubt. Our offense is limited. Our defense has lacked intensity (though better today). And the numbers are what they are. No neg reps for that. But none of us has any idea what that means for what'll happen Saturday. Oklahoma was "better" than us last year, too, and we rolled. That's the beauty of the game.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I think the "too predictable" notion is just an excuse. Teams knew what Ara and Lou were going to run but couldn't stop them because the O-line would punch them in the mouth and we had a bunch of bad *** running backs. Our running game is soft. Both the line and backs are soft. I have no idea why, but we're not going anywhere with this running game.

There seems to be two different philosophies here. Teams either: (1) line up and dare you to stop their bread 'n butter; or (2) take what the opposing defense gives them. Stanford, Wisconsin, 'Bama, Oregon, etc. do (1) (and so did all those old ND teams). Some great offenses, like Baylor's, do (2). We're trying to do (2), but it seems like we don't have to athletes currently to truly threaten the entire field.

If we had the horses to do (1), I'm sure we would; doing otherwise would be idiotic. Complaints about our staff being insufficiently dedicated to the run strike me as naive. You can't simply will your team to smash mouth success.

Taean is averaging 2.8 ypc (and averaged 3ypc today with a long of 5). Not sure what you saw that made him look pretty good in comparison to Cam (who is averaging 4.3 per carry for the season

Mayock commented that Folston's drive was the first (and, IIRC, only) drive in which State played with two high safeties, which is why we actually went to the run there. The rest of the game they were giving us man coverage, so Kelly/ Martin/ Rees were happy to continue passing against it. I'm not sure I understand the wisdom behind such a strategy, especially when Rees was off-target and ignoring all his short to intermediate reads.

 

[TheSunIsRising]

Cam has 169 yards of 45 carries and is averaging 3.75 YPC.

Your stats for Folston also don't consider his numbers from today. I haven't checked the box score yet, but that doesn't even matter really. He got positive yards on two carries and then got stuffed 4 yards deep in the backfield and spun out of it to get a few of those yards back. Watch him when he runs the ball. He has speed and shake, and his stoudt enough to run between the tackles. I'm confident that if he had the 45 carries that CAM has, he'd have more than 169 yards. He's never gotten more than a few carries over a couple of minutes and then he's taken out. RBs need to get into a groove to be consistently effective. So far this year, we've seen AMIR, GAIII and Cam get double digit carries in a game, and I've not seen any of them get any sort of consistent mojo going. From the film I saw of him in HS and the admittedly limited action I've seen from him this season, I think he's got something that none of those other three do. Bryant might too, but we aren't going to find out until we see them get some work. What we are doing now isn't working.

Fair enough on the stats (ESPN lists him at 4.3 ypc and shows today's stats, but for some reason does not include today in the year stats).

Still is averaging more than Tarean (who is averaging less than 3ypc for the season), and has picked-up some blocks well. I would love to see both freshmen get more carries, but what I have seen from them in gametime hasn't shown me they should be playing ahead of Cam. I would ignore HS highlights in comparing how they would do, as GAIII had some nice highlights as well. This (and all ND boards) will go ballistic if Tarean or GB get in for time and either fumble or allow a sack that takes Rees out of the game (well, some fans seem to be looking forward to the latter). I haven't really seen either Tarean or GB show much in terms of picking-up blitzes (and suspect that with Narduzzi today MSU would have blitzed much more with either of the two in the backfield for good parts of the game)

 

[Sherm Sticky]

With a better offensive line, any of the backs would look better. They remind me of a Weis line the way they run block. No drive. No toughness. Weak.

I don't understand how you all can say that about the opine when they are facing 8 men in the box for most of the game.


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[Irish YJ]

And yet we're 3-1. I'll take it.

The thing about college football is that teams get better and teams get worse and some nights teams are great and other nights they're crap (which is why the transitive property and worrying about what Michigan vs. UConn says about Notre Dame is a waste of time). The great teams find ways to win regardless.
We've been far from great this year, no doubt. Our offense is limited. Our defense has lacked intensity (though better today). And the numbers are what they are. No neg reps for that. But none of us has any idea what that means for what'll happen Saturday. Oklahoma was "better" than us last year, too, and we rolled. That's the beauty of the game.

I'll take it too given the way we've played. I hope to hell we can gel and pull something out of our arses on Saturday. I just don't have that "lucky" feeling I had going into the OK game last year. OK hasn't played anyone (unless you think WV is someone this year), so trying to stay optimistic about playing them in the Bend.

 

[GATTACA!]

Poor play all the way across the board. Sad sad day.

Zaire Plays this year.

Cam is so average its not even funny.

No chance at 8 and 4

Oklahoma puts up near fifty on us.

I think this says something about the direction of the program when we are getting these type of comments after a win. We are to a point where we will be disappointed by 2 losses rather than surprised/excited.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I don't understand how you all can say that about the opine when they are facing 8 men in the box for most of the game.

There's definitely something wrong with our OL's run blocking.

Against Temple's 98th ranked run defense, we rushed 35 times for 188 yards at 5.4 YPC. Take out Carlisle's 45 yard run, and we only averaged 4.2 YPC.

Against Michigan's 61st ranked run defense, we rushed 19 times for 96 yards at 5.1 YPC. Take out Carlisle and GAIII's two long runs (14 and 16 yards, respectively), and we only averaged 3.9 YPC.

Against Purdue's 36th ranked run defense (a ranking which will surely drop significantly after today's loss to Wisconsin), we rushed 37 times for 91 yards at 2.5 YPC. Take out McDaniel's and GAIII's two long runs (for 10 and 11 yards respectively), and we only averaged 2 YPC.

And then today, against MSU's 2nd ranked run defense, we rushed 32 times for 78 yards at 2.4 YPC. Take out McDaniel's and GAIII's two long runs (for 14 and 10 yards, respectively), we only averaged 1.8 YPC.

So our ground game has been sh!tty against both good and bad defenses. Oklahoma's defense ranks 26th in Rushing S&P+, so we should probably expect rushing production similar to the Purdue and MSU games.

 

[Booslum31]

There's definitely something wrong with our OL's run blocking.

Against Temple's 98th ranked run defense, we rushed 35 times for 188 yards at 5.4 YPC. Take out Carlisle's 45 yard run, and we only averaged 4.2 YPC.

Against Michigan's 61st ranked run defense, we rushed 39 times for 166 yards at 4.3 YPC.

Against Purdue's 36th ranked run defense, we rushed 21 times for 38 yards at 1.8 YPC. Take out McDaniel's and GAIII's two long runs (for 10 and 11 yards respectively), and we only averaged 0.9 YPC.

And then today, against MSU's 2nd ranked run defense (a ranking which will surely drop significantly after today's loss to Wisconsin), we rushed 32 times for 78 yards at 2.4 YPC. Take out McDaniel's and GAIII's two long runs (for 14 and 10 yards, respectively), we only averaged 1.8 YPC.

So our ground game has been sh!tty against both good and bad defenses. Oklahoma's defense ranks 26th in Rushing S&P+, so we should probably expect rushing production similar to the Purdue and MSU games.

Thanks for laying that out Whiskey>>>that pretty much tells the story. I'm going to the OU game and praying for better production.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

There's definitely something wrong with our OL's run blocking.

Against Temple's 98th ranked run defense, we rushed 35 times for 188 yards at 5.4 YPC. Take out Carlisle's 45 yard run, and we only averaged 4.2 YPC.

Against Michigan's 61st ranked run defense, we rushed 39 times for 166 yards at 4.3 YPC.

Against Purdue's 36th ranked run defense (a ranking which will surely drop significantly after today's loss to Wisconsin), we rushed 21 times for 38 yards at 1.8 YPC. Take out McDaniel's and GAIII's two long runs (for 10 and 11 yards respectively), and we only averaged 0.9 YPC.

And then today, against MSU's 2nd ranked run defense, we rushed 32 times for 78 yards at 2.4 YPC. Take out McDaniel's and GAIII's two long runs (for 14 and 10 yards, respectively), we only averaged 1.8 YPC.

So our ground game has been sh!tty against both good and bad defenses. Oklahoma's defense ranks 26th in Rushing S&P+, so we should probably expect rushing production similar to the Purdue and MSU games.

I hear that, but you can't take out a long run by Carlisle. That's like lowering AP's ypc because he had a few big runs in a game.

By those numbers we ran good against a crap defense in temple. We ran well against an average defense in Michigan. We ran sh*ty against May and Purdue because both teams were playing 8 in the box.

Look the coaches need to play Bryant and Folston. Keep Carlie in the game at the slot. And for Christ sake stop telegraphy run and passes by personal groupings!


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[NDWorld247]

There's definitely something wrong with our OL's run blocking.

Against Temple's 98th ranked run defense, we rushed 35 times for 188 yards at 5.4 YPC. Take out Carlisle's 45 yard run, and we only averaged 4.2 YPC.

Against Michigan's 61st ranked run defense, we rushed 39 times for 166 yards at 4.3 YPC.

Against Purdue's 36th ranked run defense (a ranking which will surely drop significantly after today's loss to Wisconsin), we rushed 21 times for 38 yards at 1.8 YPC. Take out McDaniel's and GAIII's two long runs (for 10 and 11 yards respectively), and we only averaged 0.9 YPC.

And then today, against MSU's 2nd ranked run defense, we rushed 32 times for 78 yards at 2.4 YPC. Take out McDaniel's and GAIII's two long runs (for 14 and 10 yards, respectively), we only averaged 1.8 YPC.

So our ground game has been sh!tty against both good and bad defenses. Oklahoma's defense ranks 26th in Rushing S&P+, so we should probably expect rushing production similar to the Purdue and MSU games.

As a former OL and a current OL coach, I'm going to defend the big boys up front by saying there are other factors that should be considered, namely, lack of continuity at the RB position and, everyone's favorite, play calling.

Re: the RB position, there is truth in that RBs often get better with more carries as they get into a rhythm. None of our RBs have been given that chance outside of Cam's 4th quarter drive vs. Purdue and we saw how well that worked. Everyone has their opinion on who should be getting the majority of the carries which has been a topic of conversation all offseason. I don't have a strong opinion on who it should be, but part of me wishes they would pick SOMEONE (or at a max two) to be that guy. At least let someone stay in the game for a whole drive or more than 2-3 plays at a time.

Re: play calling (including checks at the line), again it's a matter of rhythm. Our ground game has none of it. This has been discussed ad nauseum on here since week one so I won't rehash it, but it's certainly not doing our ground game any favors.

I don't disagree the OL could improve their run blocking, but I don't think our production, or lackthereof, on the ground can solely be explained by saying the OL is doing a poor job.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I hear that, but you can't take out a long run by Carlisle. That's like lowering AP's ypc because he had a few big runs in a game.

1-2 long runs can really skew YPC. I only listed the YPC without them to indicate where we weren't getting consistent production.

By those numbers we ran good against a crap defense in temple. We ran well against an average defense in Michigan. We ran sh*ty against May and Purdue because both teams were playing 8 in the box.

We still face "average" run defenses in ASU and Stanford (the latter seems strangely low, and will likely rise by the time we play), and elite run defenses in USC, BYU and Stanford. What's to keep those last 3 teams from putting 8 in the box and daring Rees to beat them over the top like State and Purdue did? 17 points isn't gonna be enough against any of those teams.

Look the coaches need to play Bryant and Folston. Keep Carlie in the game at the slot. And for Christ sake stop telegraphy run and passes by personal groupings!

You may be right, but what if Folston and Bryant whiff badly in pass protection? Without Rees' arm to keep defenses honest, our season is over.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I don't disagree the OL could improve their run blocking, but I don't think our production, or lackthereof, on the ground can solely be explained by saying the OL is doing a poor job.

I agree that there are other factors, and I didn't intend to blame the OL entirely. But a bunch of our rushing attempts today got blown up in the backfield because one of our bigs either missed an assignment or simply got beat (Lombard's mistakes have been the most obvious).

So maybe we won't see another front-7 as good as State's, but it's not like we've been dominating against inferior talent either. If our OL was run blocking better, one of our RBs may have established himself already. That street goes both ways.

 

[Cackalacky]

Has anyone considered that our staff might just be managing the games to win? Regardless of any other situation or interpretation, it seems to me the staff is doing what they think they can to win the game at hand by minimizing our disadvantages and at least putting us in a situation to maximize our advantages. It might be ugly but cripes..... It works.

Few sacks
Few turnovers
Few chunk plays ( other than UM)

 

[Irish Insanity]

Has anyone considered that our staff might just be managing the games to win? Regardless of any other situation or interpretation, it seems to me the staff is doing what they think they can to win the game at hand by minimizing our disadvantages and at least putting us in a situation to maximize our advantages. It might be ugly but cripes..... It works.

Few sacks
Few turnovers
Few chunk plays ( other than UM)

This actually crossed my mind this morning. And I think your right. I understand but don't agree with the strategy, the main goal is a W. The rational side understands and is happy with the Ws, the fan side is pissed at how bad we look.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Other than a couple fixable problems, I think NDWorld is dead on. Occam's razor. These guys are so studly in pass protection that it is unbelievable, yet they suck beyond belief on run blocking? (I know that run and pass blocking are two different things.)

 

[Bogtrotter07]

This actually crossed my mind this morning. And I think your right. I understand but don't agree with the strategy, the main goal is a W. The rational side understands and is happy with the Ws, the fan side is pissed at how bad we look.

PS. The staff is managing the game to win. That is the main reason we look lucky, too.

 

[Kak7304]

PS. The staff is managing the game to win. That is the main reason we look lucky, too.

This. Last time I checked, the only number that matters is the score at the end of the game. Part of the reason this offense doesn't have an identity is because the offensive gameplan changes drastically week to week based off what the coaching staff thinks will put us in position to win. So many call for us to be an uptempo offense like Oregon. That offense is unstoppable when it's rolling but when it's not, you just have faster three and outs leading to more punts and leaving your defense out on the field. BK was uptempo at Cincy because he had to use his offense to win shoot outs. He doesn't need to do that here.

 

[pkt77242]

It doesn't matter who plays running back if our run blocking doesn't improve.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

This. Last time I checked, the only number that matters is the score at the end of the game. Part of the reason this offense doesn't have an identity is because the offensive gameplan changes drastically week to week based off what the coaching staff thinks will put us in position to win. So many call for us to be an uptempo offense like Oregon. That offense is unstoppable when it's rolling but when it's not, you just have faster three and outs leading to more punts and leaving your defense out on the field. BK was uptempo at Cincy because he had to use his offense to win shoot outs. He doesn't need to do that here.

EXACTLY!

 

[returnofthemack]

Has anyone considered that our staff might just be managing the games to win? Regardless of any other situation or interpretation, it seems to me the staff is doing what they think they can to win the game at hand by minimizing our disadvantages and at least putting us in a situation to maximize our advantages. It might be ugly but cripes..... It works.

Few sacks
Few turnovers
Few chunk plays ( other than UM)

This is a cuter way to say they're playing not to lose. The problem is, that when you play not to lose, you can be too tentative and end up losing anyway.

 

[Pa Golden Tate Fan]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Kelly on Corey Robinson: has gotten better w/more zone route running. Making transition to college from HS. Fuller doing it too.</p>— Irish Sports Daily (@ISDUpdate) <a href="https://twitter.com/ISDUpdate/statuses/381842602598752256">September 22, 2013</a></blockquote>
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[Pa Golden Tate Fan]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Kelly says the Irish came out of the game healthy, repeats that Sheldon Day will have a "great chance to be ready to go" with another week.</p>— Irish Illustrated (@NDatRivals) <a href="https://twitter.com/NDatRivals/statuses/381842752519933952">September 22, 2013</a></blockquote>
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