Russia Invades Ukraine

[irishog77]

I don't see it the same way. A Ukrainian "win" is a win for America on an international level and may mean political destablization in Russia. Right now they have a good relationship with Russia and the Russian government, and very clearly enjoy the upper hand in the relationship. Meanwhile, America is the only global power that can actually challenge the Chinese. Outside of international praise, why would they want to destablize a neighboring nation that is a reliable trade partner and simultaneously strengthen America's ability to influence the world? Worse yet, destablizing Russia may open the door to American influence in Russia, which would be a disaster for China, at least in my mind.

Ongoing conflict in the region may be the best outcome for China. It occupies their only competition, America, and it forces Russia to heavily rely on China. They can sit back and watch the two sides destroy each other while they continue getting cheap resources from Russia and peddle bullshit product to America.

On the surface, a Russian "win" here appears to be a better option than a "loss" b/c it chips away at America's ability to influence and makes them look weak.

I have no idea what the hell they're thinking, I just have no idea why they would do anything that would seemingly strengthen America's position on an international level.

I was just responding to that article, not necessarily giving an opinion. I'll generally be the last in any group to give a hard take on what I think china's actual and intended actions will be in a global conflict where current and future stature, impact, and trade are involved.

While you bring up some good points, I tend to agree more with Whiskey more. China definitely has the chance to give a big F.U. to the world and forge their own path right now, or they could swoop in and act like a knight in shining armor and ingratiate themselves well with North America, Europe, and most of Asia, potentially softening the hard-on those 3 areas have for them right now.

 

[Wild Bill]

I was just responding to that article, not necessarily giving an opinion. I'll generally be the last in any group to give a hard take on what I think china's actual and intended actions will be in a global conflict where current and future stature, impact, and trade are involved.

While you bring up some good points, I tend to agree more with Whiskey more. China definitely has the chance to give a big F.U. to the world and forge their own path right now, or they could swoop in and act like a knight in shining armor and ingratiate themselves well with North America, Europe, and most of Asia, potentially softening the hard-on those 3 areas have for them right now.

Whisky brings up some good points that I didn't consider. Hard to tell what they believe to be in their best interest. Based on the tweet above, it appears they may want to ride this out with Putin. I'm not so sure I trust that tweet but I guess we'll find out shortly.

 

[BrownerandFry]

And the hits Keep rolling in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Russia could default on its debt within days

Russia has sent the clearest signal yet that it will soon default — the first time it will have failed to meet its foreign debt obligations since the Bolshevik revolution

www.gwinnettdailypost.com

Russia has sent the clearest signal yet that it will soon default — the first time it will have failed to meet its foreign debt obligations since the Bolshevik revolution more than a century ago.
Half of the country's foreign reserves — roughly $315 billion — have been frozen by Western sanctions imposed after the invasion of Ukraine, Russian finance minister Anton Siluanov said on Sunday. As a result, Moscow will repay creditors from "countries that are unfriendly" in rubles until the sanctions are lifted, he said.
Credit ratings agencies would likely consider Russia to be in default if Moscow misses payments or repays debt issued in dollars or euros with other currencies such as the ruble or China's yuan. A default could drive the few remaining foreign investors out of Russia and further isolate the country's crumbling economy.


The kleptocrats will be as permanently loyal as Cassius, Brutus and Judas.

It will be every man for himself and let the devil take the hindmost.

 

[BrownerandFry]

Whisky brings up some good points that I didn't consider. Hard to tell what they believe to be in their best interest. Based on the tweet above, it appears they may want to ride this out with Putin. I'm not so sure I trust that tweet but I guess we'll find out shortly.

I expect an ever widening chasm between what China does and what it says.

And they may attempt, successfully, to lower their profile and reduce their "podium presence."

Inscrutable

 

[Wild Bill]

Except Tulsi Gabbard and Glenn Greenwald are in no way "far right." Tough to argue that they are even right.

1 thing this thread certainly needs more of are more liberals keeping this B.S. charade up of how pro-putin and pro-russia the right definitely is. Or, we can continue on with reality.

No need to rely on them as sources. Everyone can listen to Nuland's testimony and draw their own conclusions.

Greenwald has been shit on by both the right and left the last few decades. I gotta hand it to him, he just doesn't give a shit and over the years he's been right more often than not.

 

[irishog77]

Whisky brings up some good points that I didn't consider. Hard to tell what they believe to be in their best interest. Based on the tweet above, it appears they may want to ride this out with Putin. I'm not so sure I trust that tweet but I guess we'll find out shortly.

Absolutely. My strong distrust of "reports" are even further thrown in doubt when a war is waging. Maybe in 2 years we can get an accurate picture of putin's invasion into Ukraine?

 

[ab2cmiller]

No need to rely on them as sources. Everyone can listen to Nuland's testimony and draw their own conclusions.

Greenwald has been shit on by both the right and left the last few decades. I gotta hand it to him, he just doesn't give a shit and over the years he's been right more often than not.

A lot of truth in that statement.

 

[BrownerandFry]

Another Vlad screwup "We won't use conscript" Until we do...............

Ukies are motivated, playing a home game.
Russians were lied to, misled, bamboozled.

Here are the consequences:

Stuck In The Mud, The Structure Of The Russian Army May Be The Reason For Low Morale

Widespread reports of Russian troops surrendering or abandoning operational equipment and just walking away may be due to the way the Russian Army fills its ranks with conscripts.

sofrep.com

Putin’s troops have been plagued with logistical challenges, including shortages of food and fuel. This is somewhat surprising given how long they were staged before entering the former Soviet Republic. What did they do with all that time?

To understand what underlies this lack of morale, we must look at what shapes combat motivation; the willingness to fight and die for a cause.

In this case, the answer is simple:

Many Russian soldiers don’t want to be in Ukraine​

A quick social media search reveals numerous videos showing hungry soldiers forced to beg or forage for food. Some complain of not knowing where they are or why they are fighting. More than a few soldiers have expressed the belief that they were only on a training exercise.

Nota Bene, this comports with what Perth Domer was saying several days ago with reference to vietnam (I was an eyewitness) and Aghanistan.

 

[Redbar]

Except Tulsi Gabbard and Glenn Greenwald are in no way "far right." Tough to argue that they are even right.

1 thing this thread certainly needs more of are more liberals keeping this B.S. charade up of how pro-putin and pro-russia the right definitely is. Or, we can continue on with reality.

Don’t take our word for it. Do a quick google search of “Kremlin urges state TV to show more Tucker Carlson and far right media”. Why in t/f would that be? Cuz liberals…

 

[irishog77]

Don’t take our word for it. Do a quick google search of “Kremlin urges state TV to show more Tucker Carlson and far right media”. Why in t/f would that be? Cuz liberals…

Are they following along those far-righters Greenwald and Gabbard?

 

[PerthDomer]

Then there is this

This would be our play whatever happens. It pressures China to do less than whatever they're currently doing.

There are different levels of support. Sending soldiers is something I doubt China does. Sending weapons systems is a maybe. Sending needed inputs/helping circumvent sanctions is another. As is buying commodities/helping run industries the West has backed out of.

We could get China to not send drones/ammunition but do the other stuff and call it a win. Maybe we tell China we'd ease some trade restrictions if they told Russia they thought Ural crude was worth 40 a barrel less than Brent Crude rather than 20 less.

Full western sanctions isn't something China is going to do, but what they do beyond that and the amount of pressure they place on Russia to settle is up in the air. Hope our diplomats extract as much cooperation as they can.

 

[irishog77]

It's not like there haven't been calls for russians to heed biden, "Honeymoon in Moscow" sanders, aoc, etc. words either.

People in this thread, for the most part, have actually NOT been engaging in the clown show that you seemingly want to push though.

 

[NorthDakota]

No need to rely on them as sources. Everyone can listen to Nuland's testimony and draw their own conclusions.

Greenwald has been shit on by both the right and left the last few decades. I gotta hand it to him, he just doesn't give a shit and over the years he's been right more often than not.

I love Glenn. He's a fun listen. I dont agree with him a ton of the time but he's an interesting cat.

 

[Redbar]

Don’t take our word for it. Do a quick google search of “Kremlin urges state TV to show more Tucker Carlson and far right media”. Why in t/f would that be? Cuz liberals…

Google is not my clown show, “Not Sinbad’s nephew”, this is called infowars and it’s real when nations are actually at war and people are being maliciously bombed for so called “reasons”.

 

[irishog77]

Google is not my clown show, “Not Sinbad’s nephew”, this is called infowars and it’s real when nations are actually at war and people are being maliciously bombed for so called “reasons”.

It's a total clown show when you're trying to portray and preach that those on the right and far right (like Tulsi Gabbard and Glenn Greenwald, of all people- ha!) are all these big pro putin and pro russian types.

The left's 2 leading candidates for president in '20 were neck deep into russian/ukranian influence and money. One went on to become the actual president of the U.S. and the other is a senior senator in Vermont. Yet nobody is actually talking about that in here nor believes them to be actual russian agents.

 

[Irish#1]

Whisky brings up some good points that I didn't consider. Hard to tell what they believe to be in their best interest. Based on the tweet above, it appears they may want to ride this out with Putin. I'm not so sure I trust that tweet but I guess we'll find out shortly.

I’m not sure about the tweet either. Pretty sure CNN had a mini headline this morning that said China denies providing aid.

 

[NorthDakota]

It's a total clown show when you're trying to portray and preach that those on the right and far right (like Tulsi Gabbard and Glenn Greenwald, of all people- ha!) are all these big pro putin and pro russian types.

The left's 2 leading candidates for president in '20 were neck deep into russian/ukranian influence and money. One went on to become the actual president of the U.S. and the other is a senior senator in Vermont. Yet nobody is actually talking about that in here nor believes them to be actual russian agents.

Can be left or right and be friendly to the Bear. But I agree, its comical when people try to portray Glenn Greenwald or Tulsa Gabbard...or Matt Taibbi or whomever is objectively left as being on the right side of the spectrum.

The whole "Ukraine biolabs" stuff seems goofy to me. I doubt Russia had any legitimate fear of Ukraine dropping bioweapons on them. If they did, they would have said something sooner.

 

[BrownerandFry]

It's a total clown show when you're trying to portray and preach that those on the right and far right (like Tulsi Gabbard and Glenn Greenwald, of all people- ha!) are all these big pro putin and pro russian types.

The left's 2 leading candidates for president in '20 were neck deep into russian/ukranian influence and money. One went on to become the actual president of the U.S. and the other is a senior senator in Vermont. Yet nobody is actually talking about that in here nor believes them to be actual russian agents.

Brilliant post!

Two simple questions:

Are you aware that the word "gullible" is not in the dictionary?

Further are you aware that the Democratic 2020 primary ended almost two years ago??????

People are getting killed in Ukraine.
over 2.5 million refugees

Have you ever been a refugee?
Do you have ancestors that were "refugees" or "displaced persons" (dps as we called them in the the Polish ghetto)

Focus. Stay focused

 

[BrownerandFry]

Long thread, maybe not worth reading, but I learned a lot about Russian propaganda that led to this. It cuts to the core of why you have to confront Putin now and why appeasement isn’t an option. Failure and regime change are the only options because he made a huge blunder here and won’t make that mistake again. Your risks of a major war go UP by not confronting him, they do not go down.

Lax, this summary is intended for you. It is some CLIFFSNOTES on propaganda

Principles of propaganda

Avoid abstract ideas - appeal to the emotions.

Constantly repeat just a few ideas. Use stereotyped phrases.

Give only one side of the argument.

Continuously criticize your opponents.

Pick out one special "enemy" for special vilification.



Let.s see how this works



Appeal to Emotions:

MOTHER RUSSIA

Make Russia Great Again

The greatest tragedy of the 20th century was the breakup of the Soviet Union (screw the Holocaust)

Zelensky is a Jew Nazi (a twofer, sort of pickups antisemitism and old war wounds)

REPEAT OVER AND OVER



Bumper stickers only

MRGA

MOTHER RUSSIA

STOP THE JEW NAZI

Ukraine is russian

They will love us

Give only one side”

CONTOL THE MEDIA

PRAVDA and one station

Jail people who even use the word “WAR”



Continually criticize opponents



WEST is CORRUPT

NATO BAD

DISSENTERS ARE ENEMIES OF THE STATE

POISON NAVALNY



Pick out one special enemy

Easy.



Zelensky the Jew Nazi

Off with his head

Lock him up!

 

[Wild Bill]

Yeah you click on his name and there will be a menu of options below it and you click "ignore." If you can't find the option after trying, let me know.

.

 

[GATTACA!]

Lax, this summary is intended for you. It is some CLIFFSNOTES on propaganda

Principles of propaganda

Avoid abstract ideas - appeal to the emotions.

Constantly repeat just a few ideas. Use stereotyped phrases.

Give only one side of the argument.

Continuously criticize your opponents.

Pick out one special "enemy" for special vilification.



Let.s see how this works



Appeal to Emotions:

MOTHER RUSSIA

Make Russia Great Again

The greatest tragedy of the 20th century was the breakup of the Soviet Union (screw the Holocaust)

Zelensky is a Jew Nazi (a twofer, sort of pickups antisemitism and old war wounds)

REPEAT OVER AND OVER



Bumper stickers only

MRGA

MOTHER RUSSIA

STOP THE JEW NAZI

Ukraine is russian

They will love us

Give only one side”

CONTOL THE MEDIA

PRAVDA and one station

Jail people who even use the word “WAR”



Continually criticize opponents



WEST is CORRUPT

NATO BAD

DISSENTERS ARE ENEMIES OF THE STATE

POISON NAVALNY



Pick out one special enemy

Easy.



Zelensky the Jew Nazi

Off with his head

Lock him up!

Put down the enter key my guy.

 

[Blazers46]

Put down the enter key my guy.

Thank God!! It worked!!

 

[Blazers46]

It's a total clown show when you're trying to portray and preach that those on the right and far right (like Tulsi Gabbard and Glenn Greenwald, of all people- ha!) are all these big pro putin and pro russian types.

The left's 2 leading candidates for president in '20 were neck deep into russian/ukranian influence and money. One went on to become the actual president of the U.S. and the other is a senior senator in Vermont. Yet nobody is actually talking about that in here nor believes them to be actual russian agents.

Post of the day!!

Calling the biolabs propaganda would be like saying in Nov 2020 Hunter Biden never lost laptop. A lot of “right-wing conspiracy theories” back then we just call news now… just back page news to those that swing from the left side of the plate.

 

[IrishLax]

There are a lot of politicians and talking heads that are bought by Russia. Greenwald has been a paid asset for years now. Tulsi there have always been rumors about. It’s surprising that the #1 conservative media personality from a ratings standpoint is now weeks deep into being a Russian propagandist, but I would not be surprised if that comes top down from Murdoch. Taking the edgy, counter-mainstream opinion is the reason why Carlson’s ratings have ballooned in recent years.

The biolabs thing is a joke to anyone with half a brain cell — spoiler alert: scientists do all kinds of research around the world in all kinds of labs funded by all kinds of government grants. That’s just how things work. It isn’t nefarious, it’s common sense. The US has “biolabs,” Russia has “biolabs,” Canada has “biolabs,” China has “biolabs,”…. Every fucking country has “biolabs.”

Russia has been failing for weeks to find any propaganda that will stick. They finally found an angle that plays to a few dumb sheep on both sides, and are going to hammer that from now until the end of their “peacekeeping” operation. It is extremely sad that a major TV personality on a major network is breathing air into this fire, but it’s 100% unsurprising who it is. You expect this stuff from fringe politicians and randos on Twitter, not a flagship program on a major network. But here we are.

 

[Irish#1]

There are a lot of politicians and talking heads that are bought by Russia. Greenwald has been a paid asset for years now. Tulsi there have always been rumors about. It’s surprising that the #1 conservative media personality from a ratings standpoint is now weeks deep into being a Russian propagandist, but I would not be surprised if that comes top down from Murdoch. Taking the edgy, counter-mainstream opinion is the reason why Carlson’s ratings have ballooned in recent years.

The biolabs thing is a joke to anyone with half a brain cell — spoiler alert: scientists do all kinds of research around the world in all kinds of labs funded by all kinds of government grants. That’s just how things work. It isn’t nefarious, it’s common sense. The US has “biolabs,” Russia has “biolabs,” Canada has “biolabs,” China has “biolabs,”…. Every fucking country has “biolabs.”

Russia has been failing for weeks to find any propaganda that will stick. They finally found an angle that plays to a few dumb sheep on both sides, and are going to hammer that from now until the end of their “peacekeeping” operation. It is extremely sad that a major TV personality on a major network is breathing air into this fire, but it’s 100% unsurprising who it is. You expect this stuff from fringe politicians and randos on Twitter, not a flagship program on a major network. But here we are.

What about the non-fucking countries?

I agree. When I first read about the bio stuff, I questioned it and don't buy it. If true, why not publicize that right from the beginning? Putin is grasping at straws to win the "truth" war and nobody is buying. Not even his own citizens.

 

[IrishLax]

What about the non-fucking countries?

I agree. When I first read about the bio stuff, I questioned it and don't buy it. If true, why not publicize that right from the beginning? Putin is grasping at straws to win the "truth" war and nobody is buying. Not even his own citizens.

Exactly. First he tried the "we are liberating them from Nazi's" approach but that failed because Zelensky and others were able to get on TV and show quite clearly that they are NOT Nazi's. Then they tried to say that Ukraine was building a dirty bomb. That also failed, because they couldn't produce any evidence. They also tried "NATO made us do it" and a bunch of other stuff.

They never thought to go the "biolabs" route -- because it's ridiculous to anyone with a brain and trafficking in facts -- until some QAnon dude got it trending in a small group of fringe idiots. Then Russia seized on it (as did China and anyone else looking for an angle to justify support of Russia).

This angle works because: 1) COVID (and therefor any talk of "pathogens" or "lab leaks") is a politicized and divisive topic that people have strong opinions on 2) international science and research is a complex topic whereas "they're Nazis" is not 3) because they got certain people to give it credibility by talking about it on programs people trust.

It is what it is. I think this thread has been really interesting because there are a lot of people with different opinions and no "right" answer. That makes for good discussion. But regardless of different opinions and discussion on what the US should do, it's been very clear that the entire world has basically been united in agreement of the fact that Russia is the bad guy; the aggressor; committing war crimes; and unjustified in their attack on Ukraine. What Russia is going to do here is try to divide people on the idea of "bioweapons" and other spooky buzzwords to cause enough confusion that they can retro-justify what they've done. They are 100% guaranteed to take control of one of these "biolabs" at some point and fabricate what they found or what Ukraine // NATO was nefariously plotting. And when that happens, keep your eyes on who parrots talking points from the Kremlin and who doesn't.

 

[drayer54]

This is seems to undoubtedly be the move for China, if as most seem to say and agree that China plays the long game.

China is about to be a ton of oil on the cheap. All that oil that the rest of the world felt good about not buying is just going to go the other way for a great price. China collaborated with Russia on planning the invasion, of course, they are on the Russian side. The only thing that would hold back China from supporting Russia more is the fact that the Russian army has shown to be... not as good as perceived.

I'm sure our team of experts will do wonderful with this.

 

[Rogue219]

Crude Oil now at $94.16 per barrel.

 

[notredomer23]

Another Fox journalist was killed in Kyiv today.

 

[TorontoGold]

Crude Oil now at $94.16 per barrel.

"Keystone is why we have high gas prices. I have no clue on how economics work"