Rumored Violations

[Jebediah Springfield]

I think his point is that the evidence may be overwhelmingly negative and "expulsion-worthy" but rather than rush the decision, Notre Dame may be looking at all possible ways to avoid that result as to not cause the student-athletes to lose their opportunity to graduate from ND.

They are delaying getting the evidence to a council to try and avoid a horrible result... after going anal on the investigation?

 

[BobD]

I think I've got it. What the thread needs to help bring a resolution to this issue is obviously a human sacrifice. We must ban a virgin poster once a day until we have an answer.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

It could be a scenario where the facts weigh strongly in favor of expulsion and Notre Dame is giving it a thorough hearing, talking about any benefits of the doubt that may be extended, etc. If you're going to expel someone, I think you owe them a thorough due process.

But "they", assuming it's the council that does it, haven't seen anything.

 

[IrishLax]

It could be a scenario where the facts weigh strongly in favor of expulsion and Notre Dame is giving it a thorough hearing, talking about any benefits of the doubt that may be extended, etc. If you're going to expel someone, I think you owe them a thorough due process.

Makes sense.

 

[NDokie13]

Nope, it is the perfect spot for it. This thread is one large cesspool of off-topic posts.

It's the perfect storm. A situation with such large potential effects on the team that it's all anybody wants to talk about, yet is so devoid of reliable facts or new information that there's nothing to talk about.

 

[Irish8248]

Hey guys, my first post and I have kept up with this thread. I also have a name on NDNation that someone referred to at the beginning of this thread as being reputable source before the news broke. I wanted to drop my 2 cents for thought, which may calm some.
There are some expressing concern on behalf of the player's sake, which is fair. I think that the opposite could be true in the delay though. It may be possible that they want to do everything possible for a fair shake before expelling Davaris Daniels and Kendall Moore, taking their opportunity to pursue a degree from Notre Dame away. As football fans, we would like expediency and a resulting innocent decision so that these players can help the Irish beat Michigan. As Notre Dame family, we want to give these young men the best education and chance to use that education. You know, the whole 40 year decision that we preach so often. But hey, the game this week is important enough that we should rush a decision that will impact their lives much more

Welcome!

I.have to disagree though. I think all that happens during the fact finding/investigation. Sure no one wants to rush to judgment but the university defn does not want to rush the fact finding, that's really where the fate of.the players fall. Id imagine the disciplinary guidelines are well established and create a strong precedent for nearly any situation that arises. Since the investigation has ended, evidence is collected, sources vetted, and participants were interviewed, it's safe to believe it's just a matter of disciplinary hearing. I find it far less likely the school is going drag this out, allow the students to remain in classes, while having the intent to expel him/them eventually. I think it's also safe to assume the university has either recommended punishment directly to the council or has an idea on the level of severity prior to the hearing. Therefore the longer this goes on the less likely of expulsion.

 

[gkIrish]

They are delaying getting the evidence to a council to try and avoid a horrible result... after going anal on the investigation?

Well first of all we don't really know whether this council has seen any evidence or anything. Maybe they have and reached a "preliminary" recommendation that DD should be expelled. I don't know how it works but I could see that necessitating a second review by the administration or the Office of Academic Affairs. The hold up could be due to the administration looking for a way not to expel the kids within the rules.

 

[Irish8248]

But again were at the same point, we don't know anything so our analysis and inferences are based solely on speculation. We have no.documentation of prior honor council decisions, their average length to reach a decision, their current agenda, their current schedule, or even how deep this investigation goes. If it's as widespread as it's reported, then are they hearing all 20+ cases at one time? Are the most severe first?

Point being without some definitive information (which is clearly not being leaked) and insight there is no way anyone could read between the lines of this investigation. It's like those multiple choice questions where option D states "need more information in order to answer question"

 

[heygipper]

Welcome!

I.have to disagree though. I think all that happens during the fact finding/investigation. Sure no one wants to rush to judgment but the university defn does not want to rush the fact finding, that's really where the fate of.the players fall. Id imagine the disciplinary guidelines are well established and create a strong precedent for nearly any situation that arises. Since the investigation has ended, evidence is collected, sources vetted, and participants were interviewed, it's safe to believe it's just a matter of disciplinary hearing. I find it far less likely the school is going drag this out, allow the students to remain in classes, while having the intent to expel him/them eventually. I think it's also safe to assume the university has either recommended punishment directly to the council or has an idea on the level of severity prior to the hearing. Therefore the longer this goes on the less likely of expulsion.

Thank you for the welcome! I hope you are right. I believe that there is also an appeals process that happens (or can happen, at least) after the hearing. I think that some are confused as to whether a hearing has even taken place yet. Once a decision to expel is cast down and made public, that creates a black mark on the individuals reputation that is hard to expunge. I would like to think that there is some leeway to handle each situation uniquely when handing down punishment, but you may be right that there are set protocols. I think that the honor committee procedures are often times fluid at Notre Dame, at least over different decades.

Obviously the ideal manner to resolve the issue is if there were some way to keep the individuals in question anonymous to the press until a final verdict is reached, but that isn't possible in this case because of how involved the media is, the fact that the players would miss games, and the fact that the NCAA could punish ND if the situation is not handled correctly. If all five players are found to be innocent, then my post is off point, but I believe that they all had unclean hands to some extent.

 

[returnofthemack]

Seriously guys..

I get warned when folks bring up Seeburg?

Sweet.

I wasn't just bringing up Seeberg for fun. That was an extremely high-profile case where damn near every student on campus that was anybody knew which player it was, and quite a few knew the whole story. The name of that player and the details were insulated in the bubble until some student decided to be an internet message-board hero and the name leaked out. Again, my point is that if you want to treat student body rumor as 100% fact, that's on you. Rumors by definition are not trustworthy. Don't blame the person that keeps you in the loop with little-to-nothing to gain.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

Well first of all we don't really know whether this council has seen any evidence or anything. Maybe they have and reached a "preliminary" recommendation that DD should be expelled. I don't know how it works but I could see that necessitating a second review by the administration or the Office of Academic Affairs. The hold up could be due to the administration looking for a way not to expel the kids within the rules.

It's possible, I just don't think it's likely.

If the council met then at a minimum word would have spread that a meeting occured

 

[heygipper]

But again were at the same point, we don't know anything so our analysis and inferences are based solely on speculation. We have no.documentation of prior honor council decisions, their average length to reach a decision, their current agenda, their current schedule, or even how deep this investigation goes. If it's as widespread as it's reported, then are they hearing all 20+ cases at one time? Are the most severe first?

Point being without some definitive information (which is clearly not being leaked) and insight there is no way anyone could read between the lines of this investigation. It's like those multiple choice questions where option D states "need more information in order to answer question"

Good points. Certain parts of the investigation could have, in fact, been expedited too. We don't know if a normal student would have their case bumped to the front of the docket when the Committee returns for the semester. I would definitely be curious to see the timeline of the entire process.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

I wasn't just bringing up Seeberg for fun. That was an extremely high-profile case where damn near every student on campus that was anybody knew which player it was, and quite a few knew the whole story. That story was insulated in the bubble until some student decided to be an internet message-board hero and the name leaked out. Again, my point is that if you want to treat student body rumor as 100% fact, that's on you. Rumors by definition are not trustworthy. Don't blame the person that keeps you in the loop with little-to-nothing to gain.

 

[Irish8248]

Thank you for the welcome! I hope you are right. I believe that there is also an appeals process that happens (or can happen, at least) after the hearing. I think that some are confused as to whether a hearing has even taken place yet. Once a decision to expel is cast down and made public, that creates a black mark on the individuals reputation that is hard to expunge. I would like to think that there is some leeway to handle each situation uniquely when handing down punishment, but you may be right that there are set protocols. I think that the honor committee procedures are often times fluid at Notre Dame, at least over different decades.

Obviously the ideal manner to resolve the issue is if there were some way to keep the individuals in question anonymous to the press until a final verdict is reached, but that isn't possible in this case because of how involved the media is, the fact that the players would miss games, and the fact that the NCAA could punish ND if the situation is not handled correctly. If all five players are found to be innocent, then my post is off point, but I believe that they all had unclean hands to some extent.

Everything you're saying is plausible, but I think based on the reading of this board, that everyone here is pretty much on the same page as to this upcoming hearing is prior to any appeal hearing.. I haven't seen any discussion of DD waiting on his appeal results. What we have, in particular to the bolded part, is an investigation that turned to accusatory. The university launched a large net to explore wrongdoing and came away with 5 players that allegedly committed an infraction based on the two or three weeks of investigation. Therefore you're correct about "unclean hands" but it's irrelevant as to guilt or innocence

 

[BobD]

Nothing good takes this long.

 

[gkIrish]

Nothing good takes this long.

 

[Irish8248]

Good points. Certain parts of the investigation could have, in fact, been expedited too. We don't know if a normal student would have their case bumped to the front of the docket when the Committee returns for the semester. I would definitely be curious to see the timeline of the entire process.

Absolutely agree. I think that's what everyone here is searching for, some insight, anything, that helps bridge the conclusion of the investigation with the disciplinary stage. Without that information, it's difficult to understand why a decision couldn't have been made Monday versus say tomorrow or next Thursday

That's my .02, either way, fuuuuuuck Michigan

 

[returnofthemack]

I don't understand why I got the "8-year olds, dude" gif. To be clear, I was referring to jimmy telling you guys what he's heard on campus.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

I don't understand why I got the "8-year olds, dude" gif. To be clear, I was referring to jimmy telling you guys what he's heard on campus.

A joke about gossip.

 

[heygipper]

Absolutely agree. I think that's what everyone here is searching for, some insight, anything, that helps bridge the conclusion of the investigation with the disciplinary stage. Without that information, it's difficult to understand why a decision couldn't have been made Monday versus say tomorrow or next Thursday

That's my .02, either way, fuuuuuuck Michigan

Thanks for your input. Definitely things to think about, and maybe we will never know.
Toby, Hitler, Bin Laden > Michigan

 

[returnofthemack]

A joke about gossip.

haha my bad. what's a pederast Walter?

 

[stlnd01]

Ah, yes, another night of working my way through ten pages of this thread, missing the Eastern/Central time throwdowns, and learning nothing of consequence beyond the fact that JimmyMac's a standup guy, Rhode's as wise as his avatar and there are occasionally assholes wandering at large on IE.

But one thing I do know is that the process is the process and they're not going to rush it for football players. That's kind of why Notre Dame is Notre Dame. If that's a problem for you, I don't know what to say. Other than Fuck Michigan, on which we can all agree.

 

[phgreek]

See but you don't know the facts of what cases are in front of the council. What if the 10 non-athletes in my example are applying for prestigious fellowships that have a deadline on 9/5/14? And what if there case was pending prior to the football player case?

We have no idea what their caseload looks like. Everyone is assuming there's nothing serious on this council's plate but nobody knows shit.

Possible I guess...but I hope there isn't a log jam of more serious shit than what is alleged of THE 5.

The thing I think that prevents the logical application of simple prioritization as pertains to accelerating the disciplinary schedule is pretty apparent to me...NOTRE DAME does not want to appear to be placing ANY emphasis on football when an academic matter is at hand. The powers that be are SO paranoid about the optics...well THEY are considering vacating wins...and putting procedural rigor ahead of the things that matter...to me symptoms of the same disease...

Its one thing to be fiercely protective of your reputation of academic integrity...to deliver harsh punishment when folks violate academic rules, but quite another to act like a 13 year old self mutilator...

"They think I'm a cheater, and a football factory, and its not fair, and not true, OH GOD, but maybe I deserve this!...I'm so ugly, I hate me...so I'll pluck out my eyebrows" or vacate wins...same thing.

time to get a grip ND, execute your processes, PRIORITIZE as you see fit...and keep moving forward.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

haha my bad. what's a pederast Walter?

Shut the f*ck up, Donny.

 

[Irish8248]

Possible I guess...but I hope there isn't a log jam of more serious shit than what is alleged of THE 5.

It was a campus wide search. It reached beyond just 5 players and is presumed to have indicted both athletes and non-athletes. That alone would create a log jam.

considering vacating wins...and putting procedural rigor ahead of the things that matter

To be fair vacating wins has not been mentioned or reported, at least to my knowledge, since the press conference when the story first broke which was before any investigative conclusions were formed. Also, maybe proper procedure is something that actually matters to ND. Thus they do not feel they have placed any procedural rigors on the situation. It doesn't seem fair to criticize the university for something they haven't done yet. They may have overreacted and it may be extreme (id agree) but until they actually move forward with vacating wins idea it isn't reasonable to draw that conclusion as the impending and certain end result.


PRIORITIZE as you see fit

What's to say they haven't? We literally know nothing and yet were criticizing a university based on the fact that we know nothing. It seems like the only gripe we could have is being left out in the dark, ND is not transparent with us fans. I assume many have not argued that side because we all recognize how ridiculous that is.

I just don't understand how we can criticize a process that we know nothing about. Until.It becomes completely unreasonable (which I understand is subjective to each fan), then gripping over a delay, interpreting what that said delay means, and speculating over mounds of speculation just seems irrational

 

[koonja]

Nothing good takes this long.

Beau don't listen to him. Losing your virginity is going to be a great experience.

 

[wizards8507]

Morning guys... I'm glad you all decided to take last night to get further worked up over unsubstantiated rumors while completely ignoring the excerpts from Notre Dame's policies and procedures that I've posted verbatim several times. That's the kind of hard-hitting ignorance I've come to expect from IE, and I would have been disappointed with anything less. Bravo! Brava!

 

[koonja]

Morning guys... I'm glad you all decided to take last night to get further worked up over unsubstantiated rumors while completely ignoring the excerpts from Notre Dame's policies and procedures that I've posted verbatim several times. That's the kind of hard-hitting ignorance I've come to expect from IE, and I would have been disappointed with anything less. Bravo! Brava!

We get the process. But it needs to be amended IMO.

Cause as is it sucks camel dicks.

 

[Jimmy3Putt]

wow.
That may have been the creepiest thing I've ever seen.

 

[OCIrish]

Morning guys... I'm glad you all decided to take last night to get further worked up over unsubstantiated rumors while completely ignoring the excerpts from Notre Dame's policies and procedures that I've posted verbatim several times. That's the kind of hard-hitting ignorance I've come to expect from IE, and I would have been disappointed with anything less. Bravo! Brava!

Hey, thanks.......fucker!!!!