Rumored Violations

[IrishLax]

Logistics/schedules...

Schedules are so busy, itd be logistically impossible to move a council meeting. And while that sucks to hear, thats just the way it is. There no administration stonewalling Kelly... im pretty sure at this point the decision lies in student hands. What do you expect the admin/Kelly to do? Go and find all the student council members, say hey, sorry but we need this decided now, so move around your schedules so we can meeting tonight.... Not gonna happen.


Who knows, maybe Im wrong about everything. Maybe the meeting has happened and theyre sitting on the decision... But to me my speculation makes the most sense.

No, it isn't. You cancel your other shit. That's how every other adult in America handles a fire drill.

 

[woolybug25]

Logistics/schedules...

Schedules are so busy, itd be logistically impossible to move a council meeting. And while that sucks to hear, thats just the way it is. There no administration stonewalling Kelly... im pretty sure at this point the decision lies in student hands. What do you expect the admin/Kelly to do? Go and find all the student council members, say hey, sorry but we need this decided now, so move around your schedules so we can meeting tonight.... Not gonna happen.


Who knows, maybe Im wrong about everything. Maybe the meeting has happened and theyre sitting on the decision... But to me my speculation makes the most sense.

Thanks for the response, Jimmy. We all appreciate the insight. Per my post above, I just find it difficult to empathize in this situation. I seem to coordinate people with far more rigorous schedules pretty regularly. I doubt anyone on the committee isn't aware of the implications of them meeting.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I put four kids to bed every night at the same time, and they almost always make it.

I agree with you Wooly.

And I raised four daughters and we had a lot less drama in the house over the years than ND does in this one instance!

 

[jimmymac]

No question you are correct.

If Jenkins and Co. wanted to move up the meeting, it would have happened.

See, I dont think so.

Personal story. The organization I run made national news this summer... Yes, front page fox news, you name it, all over. People pressured Jenkins into overruling the decision. I know for a fact a donor (Big donor) is no longer donating because of the decision that was made. Jenkins respected our decision.

In the end of the day, Jenkins supports the students. He couldnt give two shits what anyone says.

Also, how do you think the news would sound if, when the judicial council who meets every Day X, met on day Y for some football players....

 

[Irish Insanity]

What day was it decided for Hardy not to be eligible?

 

[ndftbl]

I can understand people arguing that things should wrap up faster for everyone, but when did everyone become such apologists for the scheduled committee meetings and bureaucrats. Move the darn meeting. It's a big deal. To pretend it's not is a just a power play or stupidity.

You are exactly right.

But Jenkins and Co. intentionally do not want to appear they are emphasizing football over academics.

It would be done, if Jenkins wanted it to be.

 

[koonja]

So this council president or whatever has time for a tour of the stadium, but not to organize a meeting that could help get student athletes that are potentially innocent eligible to play again?

Dumb.

 

[jimmymac]

So this council president or whatever has time for a tour of the stadium, but not to organize a meeting that could help get student athletes that are potentially innocent eligible to play again?

Dumb.

Two completely different events.

My event A: tour of stadium
event B: student senate...

 

[koonja]

See, I dont think so.

Personal story. The organization I run made national news this summer... Yes, front page fox news, you name it, all over. People pressured Jenkins into overruling the decision. I know for a fact a donor (Big donor) is no longer donating because of the decision that was made. Jenkins respected our decision.

In the end of the day, Jenkins supports the students. He couldnt give two shits what anyone says.

Also, how do you think the news would sound if, when the judicial council who meets every Day X, met on day Y for some football players....

I don't think anyone would care, especially not the national media. Hell, they're laughing at us, wondering why we AREN'T doing that.

Not just football players. If there was a law student who had a big debate coming up where employers would be present and he wanted to be a trial lawyer, they should hurry it up for him, too.

 

[irish1958]

Justice delayed is justice denied. "Come-on Dover, move your blommin'. ass."

 

[ndftbl]

See, I dont think so.

Personal story. The organization I run made national news this summer... Yes, front page fox news, you name it, all over. People pressured Jenkins into overruling the decision. I know for a fact a donor (Big donor) is no longer donating because of the decision that was made. Jenkins respected our decision.

In the end of the day, Jenkins supports the students. He couldnt give two shits what anyone says.

Also, how do you think the news would sound if, when the judicial council who meets every Day X, met on day Y for some football players....

Not sure what your point is.

I am just saying Jenkins could move the meeting up, if he wanted to.

The justification for meeting early for football players would be obvious. There could be irreparable damage to these students, if they don't.

Isn't this the entire reason for emergency injunction proceedings, in the law?

 

[IrishLax]

See, I dont think so.

Personal story. The organization I run made national news this summer... Yes, front page fox news, you name it, all over. People pressured Jenkins into overruling the decision. I know for a fact a donor (Big donor) is no longer donating because of the decision that was made. Jenkins respected our decision.

In the end of the day, Jenkins supports the students. He couldnt give two shits what anyone says.

Also, how do you think the news would sound if, when the judicial council who meets every Day X, met on day Y for some football players....

There'd be absolutely no news. None.

Curious, what decision are you talking about?

 

[woolybug25]

See, I dont think so.

Personal story. The organization I run made national news this summer... Yes, front page fox news, you name it, all over. People pressured Jenkins into overruling the decision. I know for a fact a donor (Big donor) is no longer donating because of the decision that was made. Jenkins respected our decision.

In the end of the day, Jenkins supports the students. He couldnt give two shits what anyone says.

Also, how do you think the news would sound if, when the judicial council who meets every Day X, met on day Y for some football players....

I would be fine with them expediting this for football players. Just like I would be if they had another student that would lose an opportunity (internship, job, mission, etc) if a positive outcome came too late. I don't think that anyone is calling for their punishment decision be based on football. But I would certainly understand them taking into account the latitude of the situation and putting the well bieng of the students over an arbitrary date.

 

[DogDaysIrish]

Logistics/schedules...

Schedules are so busy, itd be logistically impossible to move a council meeting. And while that sucks to hear, thats just the way it is. There no administration stonewalling Kelly... im pretty sure at this point the decision lies in student hands. What do you expect the admin/Kelly to do? Go and find all the student council members, say hey, sorry but we need this decided now, so move around your schedules so we can meeting tonight.... Not gonna happen.

Edit (seeing your post): Even if it were possible, I also dont think the admin would ask them to move it up. What kind of message does that send?


Who knows, maybe Im wrong about everything. Maybe the meeting has happened and theyre sitting on the decision... But to me my speculation makes the most sense.

Jimmy,

You're a good kid. Perhaps a little too close to the situation to truly understand what is going on like us Gray hairs out in the world. The world is an evil, vindictive, backstabbing place where there is only one number one... And the boys at the top are always trying to knock off the ankle biters trying to find their way up the hill. ND has been upset with the football program for years. They don't see the University as a football factory. They see it as a place of higher learning (which it is) and everything else is gravy... (even though, a whole lot of what you guys and gals enjoy on campus was funded by the Football program.) If they wanted to move that meeting, it would have been done a week ago. No one is that busy that a schedule can't be adjusted. It's called a phone call..... a text message... hell, why not break out the old ND Email system that they've been combing over the past 3 weeks. I don't buy that this couldn't of been done.

Jimmy, this should have been done a week ago.

Love thee Notre Dame.

 

[Irishbounty28]

Is it possible KV did practice today knowing the outcome and the staff is using the practice squad thing as a cover?

On the topic of moving the scheduled meeting. I assume that because this is an academic issue and the administration is treating it as such the operation is being run how it normally would with no exceptions being made. If the players are found guilty they will not be suspended from the team but rather not be eligible based on academic standing or not being a part of the university. I don't see any reason the administration should change their standard practice due to athletes being involved. Obviously I wish that weren't the case but understand the university sticking to their guns.

 

[jimmymac]

Jimmy,

You're a good kid. Perhaps a little too close to the situation to truly understand what is going on like us Gray hairs out in the world. The world is an evil, vindictive, backstabbing place where there is only one number one... And the boys at the top are always trying to knock off the ankle biters trying to find their way up the hill. ND has been upset with the football program for years. They don't see the University as a football factory. They see it as a place of higher learning (which it is) and everything else is gravy... (even though, a whole lot of what you guys and gals enjoy on campus was funded by the Football program.) If they wanted to move that meeting, it would have been done a week ago. No one is that busy that a schedule can't be adjusted. It's called a phone call..... a text message... hell, why not break out the old ND Email system that they've been combing over the past 3 weeks. I don't buy that this couldn't of been done.

Jimmy, this should have been done a week ago.

Love thee Notre Dame.

First off, I'm not a child.

Second, I'm not sure how you could say this when we don't know any of the real facts in this case. Heck, my speculation is completely based on other speculation.

Third, as a head of a different organization on campus, I couldn't give two shits about the rest of the world- I wouldn't move up my council's meeting. I guess its a matter of perspective.

 

[ginman]

I really try to be measured in my reaction to these kinds of situations and keep in mind that I don't have any of the details...but at this point this entire episode is so absurd that it's almost difficult to believe. How on earth is it possible that any institution does not have a mechanism to speed up a disciplinary process in order to allow those involved to avoid major damage to their reputations, their academic trajectories, and their athletic careers? How can a process that affects the entire university community, and the millions of people who are invested in it, to drag on for such an inordinate amount of time? It is unfathomable.

Every stage of this investigation suggests to me that the process is being driven by someone, or a group of people, who: 1) got caught up in the idea of using this to demonstrate the unique 'integrity' of the university; 2) developed the idea that they had to go overboard to demonstrate this integrity by doing ill-advised things like pre-emptively discussing the idea of vacating wins before any investigation occurred; 3) followed a rigid process that is guided by a fixed timeline, and stuck to the absurd idea that the timeline could not be adjusted for any reason.

The entire process is so illogical and flies in the face of everything that we know about the need for bureaucratic institutions to be flexible and to be able to adapt to unique circumstances - particularly if the process being followed is doing major damage to the institution.

No matter the outcome, it is difficult to understand how this situation could be handled so poorly, with such disregard for the negative impact on everyone involved and everyone invested.

Rant over, but had to get that off my chest.

Agree with this. And I would add that at this point the players behavior better be pretty serious or the University looks even more absurd in the manner that it has been handled! Furthermore- i hope the punishment is not for "failure to snitch."

 

[ndftbl]

I would be fine with them expediting this for football players. Just like I would be if they had another student that would lose an opportunity (internship, job, mission, etc) if a positive outcome came too late. I don't think that anyone is calling for their punishment decision be based on football. But I would certainly understand them taking into account the latitude of the situation and putting the well bieng of the students over an arbitrary date.

Exactly.

This is the entire purpose of emergency injunction proceedings in the law.

The need to avoid irreparable injury to the football player students.

Some situations do not require an emergency hearing; others do.

 

[connor_in]

Just a question...
A few pages or way more back, didn't someone quote the handbook that said something to the effect that the various councils had a week to have a hearing once the investigation information was released to them?

If so, BK said last Thursday that the investigation portion was over. So wouldn't they have to meet by tomorrow latest?

 

[Cackalacky]

What would y'all do if you were UNC students/fans? I'll tell you what. Go out, find some coeds and party.

Paaaaarrrrrrtttaaaaayyyy!

 

[Emcee77]

Rumored Violations

GAH right jimmy I agree and I don't get what people aren't seeng here. Nobody cares about moving the meeting up except the football team and some rabid fans. And they just don't get to dictate terms to the rest of the world. If they did, and the accused players were acquitted of wrongdoing or given light punishments, people would absolutely question whether the process was entirely even- handed and arms-length. As a fan and an alum, i certainly don't want ND to leave itself vulnerable to that kind of speculation. I want these proceedings to be totally, absolutely unimpeachable. Go through the normal procedure. That is the only way.

 

[DogDaysIrish]

Also, I will say, if my speculation is correct its not like they can just move up the date of the meeting. Im in charge of a 27 person council at ND- it would be literally impossible to change it to any other day other than the one it is scheduled for.

I have no idea which council makes this decision- I know its part of the judicial council, but unsure how many members are comprised. If its a 10+ member council, theres no way they could move it. None.

First off, I'm not a child.

Second, I'm not sure how you could say this when we don't know any of the real facts in this case. Heck, my speculation is completely based on other speculation.

Third, as a head of a different organization on campus, I couldn't give two shits about the rest of the world- I wouldn't move up my council's meeting. I guess its a matter of perspective.

First off Jimmy, I didn't call you a child. The rest.... You're entitled to your opinion. I guess as you're the head of a "different organization" those folks lives that you're representing/debating aren't hanging in the balance while you sit and watch the calendar pass you by....Much like ND and its little committees are doing.

 

[TDHeysus]

 

[Emcee77]

Exactly.



This is the entire purpose of emergency injunction proceedings in the law.



The need to avoid irreparable injury to the football player students.



Some situations do not require an emergency hearing; others do.

Ok, but there is a procedure for getting a preliminary injunction. It's a well developed body of law. If there is a procedure for expedited hearings, great, use it. If not, then don't create one on the fly. That's how things get to look fishy.

 

[Spitfire]

So this council president or whatever has time for a tour of the stadium, but not to organize a meeting that could help get student athletes that are potentially innocent eligible to play again?

Dumb.

Completely agree. I'm not only frustrated as a fan who selfishly wants these guys back on the field for Michigan, but also for these players that are innocent and essentially having audition games for the next level taken away from them. I don't know who's guilty and who isn't in this mess, but if innocent, it's huge for guys like Daniels and Ishaq Williams to miss these games. Even Russell who could choose to declare early. They are taking opportunity away from these kid's because they are dragging their feet on this deal to make it look good to the NCAA. These kid's have a right to be pissed.

 

[IrishLax]

I'm getting to the point where it wouldn't surprise me if the reason why they're moving so deliberately is if this is all just a formality towards all 5 getting kicked.

It's possible it's all as simple in timing as Jimmy points out and there's nothing more to it, but I think if they had said "oh shoot, looks like you're in the clear and we held you out by mistake. my bad!" then there wouldn't even be a need for this next step to "clear" a player... I dunno if that makes sense, but it does in my head.

 

[BGIF]

The head football coach at the University of Notre Dame swings a mighty big stick...much like any other major D-1 program's coach in the country. That can't be denied. It is my feeling that the program is being made an example as to who is truly in charge.

Fr. Walsh and then Fr. Charles O'Donnell weren't pleased with "Rockne's Notre Dame" and tried to rein in Rockne. They didn't.

After Rockne's death O'Donnell put a choker on Hunk AND rained on the program.

Fr Cavanaugh wasn't pleased with "Leahy's Lads" and struggled with Leahy.

Cavanaugh's successor Fr. Hesburgh put Leahy out to pasture when Leahy requested a medical leave of absence. Hesburgh then promoted the freshman coach to head coach and crippled the program. Then he fired him and hired Kuharich while still hamstringing the program.

Fr Malloy pushed Holtz out the door and hired Davie, O'Leary, Willingham, and Weis for a distinct schematic disadvantage. Monk also hired ADs Mike Wadsworth and Kevin White raining on the program.


Is Fr Jenkins reining in Kelly through an Honesty Program?

No, he's following University established procedure. You may recall ND was taken to task for the campus police's handling of the St Mary's student who claimed sexual assault and the Feds chastised ND and found their procedures wanting. ND was fined by OSHA after the death of a student videographer for a lack of policy, and training. Two decades ago Fr. Jenkins witnessed the Moore wrongful termination lawsuit. As well as the Dunbar Infractions. He was also ND's president when OSU, UA, and, USC made procedural errors or just plain lied regarding infractions.


Also Jenkins actions have been assisting the program.

Although not yet President, Jenkins flew to Utah to try to secure Urban Meyer as head coach.

Jenkins implemented the training table that other ND Presidents fought.

The turf field went in under his reign, as did the the Crossroads Projecrt.

The Office of Residential Life was revamped by Jenkins making it less Draconian.

Admissions and the current.coaching staff work together better that previous ND coaches.

Jenkins hired Swarbrick.

I see lots of progress being made with The Program by this President, as opposed to trying to rein in a head coach who hasn't won a national champioship ... yet. And, I see a President concerned about a threat to the core values of the University and he's dotting the eyes and crossing the tees ensuring the established procedures are being followed to deal with the issues and the students involved.

 

[Irish#1]

Why is that? Logistically, if they are all available and willing, couldn't they just call an expedited meeting?

In my experience even with cell phones, text messaging, email (did I just say that?), it's still hard to get a hold of just five people to call a meeting within a few hours.

 

[MNIrishman]

Wouldn't everyone who has to go through these procedures suffer the same degree of impact to their career if found innocent? I did some engineering competition stuff which was integral to my acceptance to graduate school...if I had had to go through the process, would you guys support moving the meetings for me so I wouldn't miss my competition meetings (which would have caused severe damage to my career even if innocent)? I'm sure every student has important stuff they miss when an investigation happens. Should the committee meet daily to make sure there's no delay ever?

 

[irishog77]

Thanks for the info, Jimmy.

Not making a claim one way or another about moving the meeting, but in mine and others on this board's experience, the world of academia is really the only place meetings like this can't be moved. Schedules, work, class, and personal time are all important...but sometimes other circumstances force us to adapt.

Again, I'm not here to say the meeting should or should not have been moved. Likewise, this isn't meant to ridicule you or your opinion or anything of that nature. Just that many of us that have lived in the world of academia and then, later, outside and beyond that world, realize things change and real world consequences and circumstances compel us to change our schedules sometimes.


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