Rumored Violations

[irishog77]

This appears to be the process.

If you were charged with murder, you would need to go through trial in front of jury prior to walking freely, if you were innocent.

Sure, I understand this part.

My point is that schools operate year round. True, many private schools operate in a scaled down fashion during the summer. But does the honor committee only operate when the full student body is present? And if so, then in the scenario I described, what happens during those almost 3 months of limbo?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

BGIF, all due respect, etc., but the first part of your post doesn't mean anything. Teams win in different ways in different years. Obviously the defense was not as good last year as it was in 2012, which is all the more reason why losing Golson hurt. In my opinion, going from Golson to Rees severely limited the offense. How those two played the previous year isn't relevant; player performance is not static year over year, especially college players. The reality is that, for all his merits, Tommy was just not as physically capable of doing the things Golson could have done, and that is why there was a big dropoff.

As far as your last paragraph, I think one of us is misinterpreting the question. I thought he asked whether losing those 4 guys this year would hurt more, less or the same as losing Golson LAST year. If that is correct, I don't understand what the 2014 QB depth chart has to do with anything.

I know people over simplify situations, to facilitate an either or debate.

Here is my take. The quarterback situation has been an abomination since Kelly got here. Clausen left after three years, Crist, well . . . , Rees was the only guy with a head for all the information required to protect himself (thank goodness), there was no continuity between any of the quarterback candidates at the school, we could go on and on! Look with twenty-twenty vision at the difference between Rees, Hendrix, and Golson today. Forget about the transfers, and quitters (Barnett). Yes now La Fleur is here making an impact; but don't underrate the impact of having Golson, Zaire, and Kizer on the roster together. That will help all of their games and the offense, tremendously.

And the other problem that BGIF brings up is just as legitimate. In fact, I believe ND could have survived one of them, but not two without problems. Forget about the simplistic defensive scheme. Forget about making this an issue of good Bob, versus bad Bob. The defense that was installed simply caused too many injuries and the recruiting throttle was too tightly choked. These issues both have been solved.

And if any of you doubt me look back in the archives. Thread after thread talked about the injury bug, and was it Longo's fault, etc. And I know offensive player got hurt. But the number of front seven defensive injuries in five years was staggering. And the coup de grâce was last year's Navy game. When the players were expected to stand near the line and hold their positions. Navy changed from option read to zone blocking on predesigned hand offs. Watch the tape. Yeah the field was crappy, but the front seven became fodder that day!

And Kelly has taken responsibility for not building special teams correctly.

One is survivable. Two, no way. And with working against ones selves on special teams . . . Forget about it!

 

[wizards8507]

Sure, I understand this part.

My point is that schools operate year round. True, many private schools operate in a scaled down fashion during the summer. But does the honor committee only operate when the full student body is present? And if so, then in the scenario I described, what happens during those almost 3 months of limbo?

So if a kid gets in trouble, academically, on the first day of summer school, and it is deemed an honor committee issue, then everything has to wait until the end of August when the entire student body is on campus?

Yes.

The Student Co-Chair is selected in the Spring semester by an absolute majority of the University Code of Honor Committee to serve a one-year term in this position in the following academic year. The committee should select a student who has shown excellence in moral character, the conscientious exercise of responsibilities and the capacity for leadership. In addition to co-chairing the University Code of Honor Committee, the Student Co-Chair will have a broad range of responsibilities for assisting in the orientation and education of his or her fellow students in the honor code and for providing leadership in its implementation.

One student representative from each of the Colleges of Business, Engineering and Science and two students from either the College of Arts and Letters or the School of Architecture will serve on the committee. They are appointed by the respective deans of the colleges with appropriate student consultation.

The total number of committee members, then, is twelve, with an equal number of students and faculty.

2. The chair of the Honesty Committee, in consultation with the faculty member assigned to investigate the report (if this person is different from the chair), has the authority to decide whether there is sufficient evidence to warrant an Honesty Committee hearing. A hearing is warranted whenever there is reason to believe that academic dishonesty (whether major or minor) might have occurred. After reviewing the case, the chair of the Honesty Committee has two options:

a) He or she may decide that there is not sufficient evidence of major or minor academic dishonesty to warrant a hearing. If the chair reaches this decision, he or she shall so notify the student suspected of a violation, the instructor and the reporting student(s) (if any), and shall destroy all records related to the case.

b) The chair may decide that a hearing would be warranted. If the report of a possible violation was submitted by anyone other than the instructor in the course, the chair informs the instructor both of the report and of the evidence and asks the instructor if he or she wishes to contact the student to see if the case can be settled via an Honor Code Violation Report (see V.D. above). If the instructor declines to do so, the chair will then write a letter to the student(s) suspected of the violation. The letter shall describe the possible violation, state the known evidence (including witnesses and documents involved, if any), and state the time and place of the hearing. The letter shall also inform the student(s) under suspicion that he or she can bring to the hearing members of the University community for support and/or to serve as witnesses.

3. Honesty Committees ordinarily do not meet during the final examination period. However, if the student suspected of a violation is a graduating student during his or her final semester, the Honesty Committee must make every reasonable effort to meet prior to graduation.

 

[Irish Insanity]

This part is awesome.

Phillip Daniels has been silent on twitter FWIW. I feel like he'd be blowing up if he didn't think DD would be back soon.

Or he's silent because he has learned his son is guilty.

 

[Wild Bill]

Read before you post.

cando

 

[ulukinatme]

They should be reinstated before Monday if they're cleared. I imagine the staff will install the game plan against Rice on Monday and they'd have to be present at those meetings/practice to play on Saturday. It would be complete bullshit to sit these guys against Rice simply to avoid a PR nightmare.

On the contrary, I wonder if they may just sit them against Rice and then announce their findings on the investigation the Monday after. There will be a lot of hoopla around the Michigan game, it might go over easier if they're snuck back in during Michigan week...I mean, that's what most schools do, right? They hold players out until the first big game.

The 4 guys that are out won't necessarily be needed against Rice. This may be a good opportunity to give our younger players some legitimate playing time as DD, KVR, and even Ishaaq all have decent experience.

I'd be surprised if they aren't reinstated by Michigan week, but hopefully they're brought back next week before Rice. If it drags through the Michigan week....I would expect pretty bad news to be coming.

 

[johnnycando]

cando

I mean, that was dickheaded of me. I apologize for the way I posted that.

There won't be a decision made until later this month.

This is to prevent vacating a win against Rice in the event the said council finds academic fraud to have been committed.

At which point, by NCAA rules, a university knowingly having played ineligible players will have wins vacated.

So Notre Dame is handling this just like they have to in order to stay on the right side of error.

And in the meantime, our #2s on the depth chart are getting first team reps to prepare themselves if in the event, we no longer have the implicated players. Which is also the right and smart thing to do.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Or he's silent because he has learned his son is guilty.

And you don't think he would be keeping up his ranting and raving? Remember, he said he has been keeping his fingers in this thing, and has personal knowledge of the kids paper writing efforts.

I believe he would have gotten madder and more belligerent if this was not going well. He is an aggressive guy that has made something for himself. Strong ego. The only way I have ever seen to shut a guy like that up is to flatter him, or agree with him.

In fact, any parent would shut the fuck up if they found out that their kid was off the hook. But only a portion would out of embarrassment or shame.

 

[Johannes]

One student representative from each of the Colleges of Business, Engineering and Science and two students from either the College of Arts and Letters or the School of Architecture will serve on the committee. They are appointed by the respective deans of the colleges with appropriate student consultation.

Does this occur in the Spring semester, as well? Or is the committee filled out at the beginning of the Fall semester? I could see this dragging out a couple more weeks if the student committee members have not yet been chosen. Then the Student Co-Chair would need to provide orientation for the student members of the committee and find time to convene. On top of everything else that is going on the first few weeks when you arrive back on campus.

 

[Irish To The Core]

A win would be vacated against Rice if the players were allowed to play with Notre Dame knowing of possible cheating and eligibility issues. And the replacements, if they are found guilty before Rice, wouldn't have had first team reps in practice.

I think these people know what they're doing.

Surely, the hearing will be held and the results rendered before the Rice game.

I am still bothered by consequences being handed out before the supposed hearing to determine their culpability. People who know what they are doing still make mistakes occasionally.

 

[IrishLax]

Some tidbits from on the investigation from ISD Intel...

Certainly sounds like the probe really went deep and looked at a lot of stuff, the paper trail doesn't really seem to have many "smoking guns" and the rumors about players being "cleared" likely spun off of athletes expressing confidence that they were going to be let off. But you don't need a "smoking gun" to ring somebody up on an honor code violation, and stuff about them being cleared for sure or as early as the beginning of this week appear to be 100% fabricated. This isn't in Intel, but as Wizards noted accurately in this thread that shit just doesn't jive with ND procedure.

Lastly, seems unclear whether we'll be vacating wins. Really depends on what the investigation turned up.

 

[Wild Bill]

I mean, that was dickheaded of me. I apologize for the way I posted that.

There won't be a decision made until later this month.

This is to prevent vacating a win against Rice in the event the said council finds academic fraud to have been committed.

At which point, by NCAA rules, a university knowingly having played ineligible players will have wins vacated.

So Notre Dame is handling this just like they have to in order to stay on the right side of error.

And in the meantime, our #2s on the depth chart are getting first team reps to prepare themselves if in the event, we no longer have the implicated players. Which is also the right and smart thing to do.

No problem, Johnny. I'm a forgiving man, and frosted tips drive me wild.

 

[wizards8507]

Surely, the hearing will be held and the results rendered before the Rice game.

DSKJFOIWEFJOWEIJFOIJESDWF!

I quit this thread. Why do people keep saying "surely" ND will do this and that, or "there's no way" ND will do this or that when the procedure for this kind of thing is well-documented and leads to absolutely no "surely" or "no way" or "absolutely" conclusions whatsoever. There's a very specific way these things are handled. It probably can't start until students arrive, and then it takes at least a few days from then. Maybe it'll be resolved by Rice. Maybe not.

Certainly sounds like the probe really went deep and looked at a lot of stuff, the paper trail doesn't really seem to have many "smoking guns" and the rumors about players being "cleared" likely spun off of athletes expressing confidence that they were going to be let off. But you don't need a "smoking gun" to ring somebody up on an honor code violation, and stuff about them being cleared for sure or as early as the beginning of this week appear to be 100% fabricated. This isn't in Intel, but as Wizards noted accurately in this thread that shit just doesn't jive with ND procedure.

A couple of other points: If we hear a decision is on the way very soon (like today), then it might be a good sign. The case can be dismissed during the investigation before ever going to committee if there is insufficient evidence to warrant a full hearing. The longer it takes, the more likely it is that it's going through the full honor committee hearing process (i.e. bad news). Also, people shouldn't count on the fact that the honor committee being half students works in the team's favor. Those kids are likely to be hardcore and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them harbor the same resentment for the football program that many in the administration do.

 

[Cali_domer]

DSKJFOIWEFJOWEIJFOIJESDWF!

I quit this thread. Why do people keep saying "surely" ND will do this and that, or "there's no way" ND will do this or that when the procedure for this kind of thing is well-documented and leads to absolutely no "surely" or "no way" or "absolutely" conclusions whatsoever. There's a very specific way these things are handled. It probably can't start until students arrive, and then it takes at least a few days from then. Maybe it'll be resolved by Rice. Maybe not.

You'll be back....
You can't quit this thread... The Thread will quit you.

 

[IrishLax]

DSKJFOIWEFJOWEIJFOIJESDWF!

I quit this thread. Why do people keep saying "surely" ND will do this and that, or "there's no way" ND will do this or that when the procedure for this kind of thing is well-documented and leads to absolutely no "surely" or "no way" or "absolutely" conclusions whatsoever. There's a very specific way these things are handled. It probably can't start until students arrive, and then it takes at least a few days from then. Maybe it'll be resolved by Rice. Maybe not.

This. Expect the ball to start rolling next week, with it possible that it's resolved in anywhere from a couple days to a couple weeks depending on what was turned up/how many people they have to process.

The way it reads right now is that there was at least some evidence with respect to the 4 guys suspended that they may have committed an honor code violation, which is why ND opted to hold them out when they did after starting an investigation on the 19th. Then the next step is what Wizards is talking about which can't even start happening until everyone is assembled.

 

[IrishLax]

A couple of other points: If we hear a decision is on the way very soon (like today), then it might be a good sign. The case can be dismissed during the investigation before ever going to committee if there is insufficient evidence to warrant a full hearing. The longer it takes, the more likely it is that it's going through the full honor committee hearing process (i.e. bad news). Also, people shouldn't count on the fact that the honor committee being half students works in the team's favor. Those kids are likely to be hardcore and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them harbor the same resentment for the football program that many in the administration do.

Yeah... was wondering this... anyone know if they publicly post the names anywhere of who was appointed...?

 

[Southside Sully]

This part is awesome.

Phillip Daniels has been silent on twitter FWIW. I feel like he'd be blowing up if he didn't think DD would be back soon.

To play Devils Advocate, He also is doing an internship with the Chiefs, could be preparing for their 3rd preseason game tomorrow, which usually results in a lot of cuts after, and hasn't had time to tweet much.. Also, maybe he has nothing to say since nothing has changed.

 

[wizards8507]

Yeah... was wondering this... anyone know if they publicly post the names anywhere of who was appointed...?

University Code of Honor Committee // Undergraduate Academic Code of Honor // University of Notre Dame

NOTE: These are the university-wide members. I think the hearings will be conducted by college/departmental committees.

Hugh Page, Jr. (hpage@nd.edu)
Committee Co-Chair
Vice President and Associate Provost

Denise Umubyeyi (dumubyey@nd.edu)
Committee Co-Chair and Student Representative
College of Arts and Letters (Political Science)

Patrick Murphy (pmurphy1@nd.edu)
University Faculty Honor Code Officer

David Clairmont (dclairmo@nd.edu)
Faculty Representative, College of Arts and Letters (Theology)

Thomas Gresik (tgresik@nd.edu)
Faculty Representative, College of Arts and Letters (Economics)

Dale Nees (dnees@nd.edu)
Faculty Representative, Mendoza College of Business (Office of the Dean)

J. William Goodwine (billgoodwine@nd.edu)
Faculty Representative, College of Engineering (Aerospace & Mechanical Engr)

Xavier Creary (xcreary@nd.edu)
Faculty Representative, College of Science (Chemistry & Biochemistry)

Meghan Thomassen (mthomass@nd.edu)
Student Representative, College of Arts and Letters (English)

Jacob Frego (jfrego@nd.edu)
Student Representative, Mendoza College of Business (Finance)

Margaret Miller (mmille37@nd.edu)
Student Representative, College of Engineering (Chemical Engr)

Kelly Morgan (kmorgan3@nd.edu)
Student Representative, College of Science (Science-Business)

 

[Irish To The Core]

DSKJFOIWEFJOWEIJFOIJESDWF!

I quit this thread. Why do people keep saying "surely" ND will do this and that, or "there's no way" ND will do this or that when the procedure for this kind of thing is well-documented and leads to absolutely no "surely" or "no way" or "absolutely" conclusions whatsoever. There's a very specific way these things are handled. It probably can't start until students arrive, and then it takes at least a few days from then. Maybe it'll be resolved by Rice. Maybe not.

Then the process is flawed. This is not a murder case, this is a school trying to figure out if they have the goods on suspected plagiarists. They gathered their hard evidence over several weeks, questioned those they suspected and have done nothing since then. (1 week) I teach at a college, it doesn't have to drag on like this. The hearings won't be long, just get this over with.

"If I were the man I was five years ago, I'd take a FLAMETHROWER to this place!"

 

[IrishLax]

University Code of Honor Committee // Undergraduate Academic Code of Honor // University of Notre Dame

Hugh Page, Jr. (hpage@nd.edu)
Committee Co-Chair
Vice President and Associate Provost

Denise Umubyeyi (dumubyey@nd.edu)
Committee Co-Chair and Student Representative
College of Arts and Letters (Political Science)

Patrick Murphy (pmurphy1@nd.edu)
University Faculty Honor Code Officer

David Clairmont (dclairmo@nd.edu)
Faculty Representative, College of Arts and Letters (Theology)

Thomas Gresik (tgresik@nd.edu)
Faculty Representative, College of Arts and Letters (Economics)

Dale Nees (dnees@nd.edu)
Faculty Representative, Mendoza College of Business (Office of the Dean)

J. William Goodwine (billgoodwine@nd.edu)
Faculty Representative, College of Engineering (Aerospace & Mechanical Engr)

Xavier Creary (xcreary@nd.edu)
Faculty Representative, College of Science (Chemistry & Biochemistry)

Meghan Thomassen (mthomass@nd.edu)
Student Representative, College of Arts and Letters (English)

Jacob Frego (jfrego@nd.edu)
Student Representative, Mendoza College of Business (Finance)

Margaret Miller (mmille37@nd.edu)
Student Representative, College of Engineering (Chemical Engr)

Kelly Morgan (kmorgan3@nd.edu)
Student Representative, College of Science (Science-Business)

All chicks save Jacob Frego... Jimmymac, time to work some magic.

 

[johnnycando]

Great.

Fister is gonna speed up the process now.

Thx.

 

[pkt77242]

If the dude banged Hanna Montana in an airport bathroom, he can surely seal the deal with these academic princesses.

The Legend of Jimmy Mac grows by another inch or two.

 

[wizards8507]

See edits.

 

[ACamp1900]

If the dude banged Hanna Montana in an airport bathroom, he can surely seal the deal with these academic princesses.

Is that Jimmy's nickname for it??

 

[Rhode Irish]

Then the process is flawed. This is not a murder case, this is a school trying to figure out if they have the goods on suspected plagiarists. They gathered their hard evidence over several weeks, questioned those they suspected and have done nothing since then. (1 week) I teach at a college, it doesn't have to drag on like this. The hearings won't be long, just get this over with.

"If I were the man I was five years ago, I'd take a FLAMETHROWER to this place!"

You might be right - the process may be flawed - but the point is they aren't going to deviate from it in this situation just because football players are involved. And good for them. They shouldn't. As much as I'd like to see the process concluded (and hopefully the guys back on the field), the situation should be handled like it would be for any other student.

 

[ResLife Hero]

Then the process is flawed. This is not a murder case, this is a school trying to figure out if they have the goods on suspected plagiarists. They gathered their hard evidence over several weeks, questioned those they suspected and have done nothing since then. (1 week) I teach at a college, it doesn't have to drag on like this. The hearings won't be long, just get this over with.

"If I were the man I was five years ago, I'd take a FLAMETHROWER to this place!"

I think one thing that might be being missed in this is that the "flaw" (aka, the delay) centers around the university's policy of including student peers in the evaluation of whether something should be considered cheating. I'm a huge fan of having both faculty and students involved in this, and it just sucks that, in this case, the student contingency won't be on campus in their official capacity until the 26th.

I think having students on the committee is too important to scrap in the name of expediency.

 

[ulukinatme]

'13 PPG Scored 27.2
'13 PPG Allowed 22.4
'13 Differential PPG 4.8

'12 PPG Scored 25.8
'12 PPG Allowed 12.8
'12 PPG Differential 12.8

The DEFENSE had there best year in two decades in '12. Last year they gave up the most PPG since 2009.

In '12 Defense had 34 sacks. Last year 21, the lowest since '09.

The '13 Offense averaged 406 YPG all of 6 YPG less than '12 but the '13 Defense gave up 61 YPG more, a 21% worsening.

The difference between #1 and #2 QB this year is much, much closer than last year. Golson had Rees to bail him out in '12. Rees had no one to bail him out last year. In '14 we're supposed to have a 1A and a 1B QB with a #2 in the wings.

BGIF, all due respect, etc., but the first part of your post doesn't mean anything. Teams win in different ways in different years. Obviously the defense was not as good last year as it was in 2012, which is all the more reason why losing Golson hurt. In my opinion, going from Golson to Rees severely limited the offense. How those two played the previous year isn't relevant; player performance is not static year over year, especially college players. The reality is that, for all his merits, Tommy was just not as physically capable of doing the things Golson could have done, and that is why there was a big dropoff.

As far as your last paragraph, I think one of us is misinterpreting the question. I thought he asked whether losing those 4 guys this year would hurt more, less or the same as losing Golson LAST year. If that is correct, I don't understand what the 2014 QB depth chart has to do with anything.

I think I understand what BGIF is saying. Despite losing Golson for 2013 and having a very different QB, the difference between the offenses from a statistical standpoint was very little. The biggest difference came defensively, and I wonder if our injuries and struggles on defense didn't help contribute to the struggles Tommy also faced in some games last year.

I'm not going to say that having Tommy in at QB didn't limit our offense. You're going to have that when you move from a mobile QB to a pocket passer. However, having a successful offense is not contingent on having a mobile QB either. I mean, in 2012 Rees put more points on the board against Michigan than Golson did, even if he scored just one TD (Still the ballsiest play of the Kelly era imo). There are plenty of offenses that still use pocket passers and are successful. On the other hand, these successful offenses often have a good defense to back them up, and/or a strong running game to take pressure off the QB (Or they know what a screen is), and they can execute play action once the defense is baited to keep them honest.

We didn't do any of those things particularly well last year. Anytime you ask a pocket passing QB to throw more than 30 times a game you're running into scenarios where they're going to struggle as the number of attempts goes up. This didn't just happen with Tommy, we lost a number of times when Clausen was asked to throw 35-45 times a game. In the case of both players we typically were struggling to get stops on defense which prompted us to switch to more passing attacks. Ideally you want your QB throwing 25 times or less, unless the opponent's secondary is just really bad. When you start seeing games with more attempts you're going to have lower completion percentages and more turnovers.

 

[wizards8507]

College of Arts and Letters honesty committee LAST YEAR:

College Honesty Committee
Committee One
Phillip Munoz; Political Science – Fall 2013
Alain Toumayan; Romance Languages & Lit.; Spring 2014
Mary Keys; Political Science
Denise Umubyeyi; student representative
Abby Davis; student representative
Marissa Bowman; student representative

Committee Two
Curtis Franks; Philosophy
G. A. Radvansky; Psychology
Alec MacDonell; student representative
John Sandberg; student representative
Therese Germain; student representative

 

[irishog77]

Hell, work the magic on Jacob Frego too, Jimmy.

 

[wizards8507]

ND's website blows.

EDIT: As I continue my super-sleuthing, it looks like all of these committees are for academic year terms, which ND considers Fall and Spring semesters. I don't know that a committee even exists for the summer session, and the coming year's committee hasn't been formed yet. I don't know that there even IS a committee in place who could hold these hearings at the moment.