Rioting in St Louis

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Booslum31

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Maybe I didn't need to provoke the people who like to race bait and have posted racist shit here in the past? I mean, Irishpat is gone but it's still here.

I really haven't seen any racist comments on this site (maybe I've missed it...i don't read everything). Everyone seems to be pretty sensitive around potentially potent topics when it comes to race. I'd like to think that we can comment on the despicable nature of looters (of any race) without being called a racist or without being lectured on the environment in which the partakers (crime committers) live. Geez...the death was absolutely horrible and I pray for the family. But feeling justified to bust up the community in which you live and take the opportunity to steal is atrocious.
 

BobD

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Maybe the looters are in the right and "eye for an eye" means "a guy in my town that I don't personally know for some free clothes, Jordan's and a flat screen.
 

stlnd01

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But feeling justified to bust up the community in which you live and take the opportunity to steal is atrocious.

There wasn't even that much stolen, certainly not in proportion to the number of people out there protesting. The worst of the looting was at a gas station, for Pete's sake. No one was running off with $2,000 flat screen TVs.
This was raw anger - about the shooting, about bigger racial and economic things in that particular place - exacerbated by a militarized police response to generally peaceful protests.
 

cody1smith

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Maybe I didn't need to provoke the people who like to race bait and have posted racist shit here in the past? I mean, Irishpat is gone but it's still here.
Everybody uses the word raciest to loosely. Just because someone has an opinion about someone of a different race that you don't like does not make them raciest.

Lots of the people that live in that community are shit bums. un appreciative leeches that suck off others and still gripe and kick rocks because life is hard. That being said yeah nearly all of them are black. That does not make me a raciest for saying that.

There is a trailer park on the far edge of the town I am currently building a subdivision in and the people there piss me off to no end also. Every time I drive by I want to torch that place. And guess what every single person in it...... WHITE
 

cody1smith

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There wasn't even that much stolen, certainly not in proportion to the number of people out there protesting. The worst of the looting was at a gas station, for Pete's sake. No one was running off with $2,000 flat screen TVs.
This was raw anger - about the shooting, about bigger racial and economic things in that particular place - exacerbated by a militarized police response to generally peaceful protests.
You serious Clark?
 

PLACforever

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Can we focus on what's important in the news, There will be no Mrs. Doubtfire sequel. :(
I want to riot about that.
 

Ndaccountant

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yes, per capita.

but you're right, understanding violence is all about understanding context. white people are not getting more violent - but the context has shifted in several largely white places creating more crime.

similarly, higher rates of crime in predominantly black places does not reveal anything about black people. rather, it reveals a lot about the contexts in which black people live. that context has changed in ways that have led to a tremendous decline of violence over the past twenty years. this is hard to explain for those who believe in the inherent, essential differences between groups of people.

Here is some additional context on this issue. First and foremost, the range of what is considered a violent crime is quite large. Murder, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault fall into this category. Next, crime within in the G7 has been falling for quite some time, so this isn't an American novelty.

Cities have seen the greatest progress. The number of violent crimes has fallen by 32% since 1990 across America as a whole; in the biggest cities, it has fallen by 64%. In New York, the area around Times Square on 42nd Street, where pornographers once mingled with muggers, is now a family oriented tourist trap. On London’s housing estates, children play in concrete corridors once used by heroin addicts to shoot up. In Tallinn you can walk home from the theatre unmolested as late as you like.

What is behind this spectacular and widespread improvement? Demographic trends are an obvious factor. The baby-boom in the decades after the second world war created a bubble in the 16- to 24-year-old population a couple of decades later, and most crimes are committed by men of that age. That bubble is now long deflated. In most Western countries, the population is ageing, often quite fast.

But demographics are not everything. Mark Simmons, a deputy assistant commissioner for the Metropolitan Police in London, points out that the number of 18- to 24-year-old men in the city has been increasing in recent years, and yet the decline in crime has continued. The sheer magnitude of the improvement in places such as New York and Los Angeles, where the incidence of some crimes has fallen by as much as 90%, cannot be explained just by a young-person deficit.

Steven Levitt, an economist at the University of Chicago, has argued that the legalisation of abortion in the 1970s cut America’s crime rate by reducing the number of children growing up in inner-city poverty and thus predisposed to criminality. But that cannot explain why rates have kept falling long after such an effect should have tapered off, or why crime rates in Britain, where abortion has been legal for longer, began falling later. Jessica Wolpaw Reyes, an American researcher, has argued that the cognitive effects of exposure to lead were a primary determinant of violent crime, and unleaded petrol is to thank for the improvement. But the causal link is far from proven.

Could more criminals being locked up be the answer? The number of people behind bars has grown substantially in many countries over the past 20 years. In Britain the prison population doubled between 1993 and 2012; in Australia and America, it almost doubled. But several countries, including Canada, the Netherlands and Estonia, have reduced their prison populations without seeing any spike in crime; so too have some American states such as New York, where crime rates have fallen fastest. Prison takes existing criminals off the streets. But in many places, the drop in crime seems to be down to people not becoming criminals in the first place. Between 2007 and 2012 the number of people convicted of an offence for the first time in Britain fell by 44%.

Better policing is a more convincing explanation than bigger prisons: the expectation of being caught undoubtedly deters criminals. In New York and Los Angeles, where crime has fallen further and faster than almost anywhere, Bill Bratton, a former police chief of both cities, is often credited for the turnaround. Partly, that is thanks to higher standards. Today’s LAPD is a far cry from the racist, corrupt and scandal-ridden force of the 1990s. But tactics have also changed.

Hot fuzz

A combination of officers talking to the people whose neighbourhoods they police and intensive targeting of crime “hotspots” has transformed the way streets are protected. In the 1990s, Mr Bratton embraced data-driven “CompStat” policing, targeting the most blighted districts with huge numbers of officers. The biggest subsequent crime drops were extremely localised: for example, in the area around Canal Street in Lower Manhattan, the murder rate fell from 29 per 100,000 residents in 1990 to around 1.5 by 2009.

According to Lawrence Sherman, a criminologist at the University of Cambridge, such tactics have now worked in places as different as Sweden and Trinidad and Tobago. In Chicago, where crime has been slower to fall than elsewhere, local politicians this year thanked hotspot methods for the lowest murder rate in half a century. Technology has improved the effectiveness of detective work too. The advent of DNA testing, mobile-phone location and surveillance cameras—which have spread rapidly, especially in Britain—have all increased the risk of getting caught.

In America, the end of the crack-cocaine epidemic in the 1990s is widely credited with reducing crime. In Europe, the explosion in heroin use that accompanied the high unemployment of the 1980s has largely receded, even though hard economic times are back. Junkies are older and fewer; in Rotterdam, there is now a state-sponsored hostel for elderly heroin addicts. A lot of people in the rich world still take illegal drugs, but they tend to be drugs that they pay for out of what they earn, not what they steal.

The repopulation of inner cities is probably also a help. A middle-class exodus to the suburbs of the 1950s and 1960s often left behind inner cities blighted by derelict properties and concentrated poverty. George Kelling, the American criminologist who first developed the idea that seemingly small signs of dereliction—such as broken windows—can encourage more significant criminality, points out that inner-centre neighbourhoods such as Harlem in New York, or Amsterdam’s Nieuwmarkt district, have been reclaimed by the well-off. The windows have been mended. Gentrifiers may not always be popular, but they set up neighbourhood watch meetings, clean up empty spaces and lobby politicians to take crime more seriously. They may be a consequence of falling crime that lowers crime further.

The last category of explanations is perhaps the most intriguing: that criminals simply have fewer opportunities. Jan van Dijk, a criminologist based at Tilburg University in the Netherlands, points out that in the 1950s and 1960s millions of people across the Western world acquired cars, televisions, record players, jewellery and so on for the first time; rich pickings for those who would steal them. In the decades since, those same people have added burglar alarms, window locks and safe deposit boxes. Between 1995 and 2011, the proportion of British households with burglar alarms increased by half, to 29%. And some things once worth stealing from people’s homes have become less valuable. There is little point in burgling a house to steal a DVD player worth $30.

Obviously many factors are at play. But the focused policing is one that is interesting to me considering in previous posts you mentioned the increased police presence in largely black communities. Is that actually helping the crime rate decline?

If the crime rate is falling so much across the G7, why is there a spike in the Dakota's or other areas that you or others may deem as "more white"?

In many of the metro areas where crime rose the most, the economy has been especially strong. This is the case with Odessa, Texas, an oil boom town that has experienced rapid economic growth and large inflows of people. Two other metro areas, Columbus, Indiana, and Sioux Falls, South Dakota, have also experienced strong growth in recent years.

One of the hidden factors that could be driving up crime rates in areas with thriving economies may be shifting local demographics, Roman explained. “The biggest predictor of committing a criminal act is being young, male, and relatively low-skilled. And when you have these big natural resource booms you’re attracting lots and lots of those people to your community.” As a result, it is not organized criminals driving up crime rates as much as it is likely younger men looking for work, Roman said.

Generally, aggravated assault was the most reported violent crime in 2012, accounting for more than 62% of incidents. This was especially the case in many of the areas that led the nation in rising violent crime rates. Even as most of these areas had dramatic increases in assault rates, most had declining murder rates, and some even had decreases in property crime.

Aside from changing demographics, another factor that may affect crime statistics may be the area’s reporting trends. According to Roman, if police signal they are cracking down on crimes such as domestic violence, they may be able to encourage more people to report a crime.

Drug use, too, may play a role in promoting crime in some areas. Heroin use is on the rise in a number of metro areas because crackdowns on prescription pill abuse “drives people into the black market for heroin,” Roman said. While heroin users are no more likely to be violent, the environment in which drugs are bought and sold is often more dangerous, leading to potentially higher crime rates.

As it relates to South Dakota specifically:

7. Sioux Falls, S.D.
> 5-year increase in violent crime rate: 49.7%
> Violent crime per 100,000 (2007): 202.6
> Violent crime per 100,000 (2012): 303.3
> Murders per 100,000: 0.9

Both violent and property crime rates have risen in the Sioux Falls metro area in recent years, and local politicians have taken note of the problem. Crime has become a major topic in the city’s mayoral race, even as Sioux Falls’ economy has grown at a rapid pace The area’s unemployment rate was just 5.3% in 2012, while job growth has been robust in recent years. Still, crime rates have risen broadly. In total, there were just 445 violent crimes and 4,333 property crimes in 2007. By 2012, those figures had risen to 713 and 5,816, respectively. Despite the increase, the area’s crime rates remain considerably below national rates.

Falling crime: Where have all the burglars gone? | The Economist

Ten U.S. Cities Where Violent Crime Is Soaring - 24/7 Wall St.
 
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GoIrish41

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Booslum31

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If the cops shot and killed all of those people as was the case in the incident in Ferguson I suspect there would have been an outcry in Chicago (and everywhere else in the country)

It sounds like it's understood that citizens in a community will shoot and kill each other....14 (the other 68 just got shot but not killed) in one weekend in this case...and there will be no public outcry (looting, rioting, vandelism, etc) or vigils. But one crazy cop (maybe) shoots and kills an innocent (maybe) citizen there is mayhem. It's ALL very sad.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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If the cops shot and killed all of those people as was the case in the incident in Ferguson I suspect there would have been an outcry in Chicago (and everywhere else in the country)

Think Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson show up if the cop and victim are of the same skin tone?
 

wizards8507

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*Skims thread. Realizes that people are defending violent criminals because racism. Leaves thread.*
 
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IrishLion

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Cops killing unarmed people is dumb.

Rioting is dumb.

Errybody dumb.
 

JTLA

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I wish a young man didn't die and I wish there wasn't any rioting.

More importantly, I wish people were smarter about interactions with police.
I wish more conversations were had about how to interact with police.

I don't care what race you are and I don't care how rudely the police asks you. If a police asks you to get out of the street and you don't do it, what happens next is largely your fault.

I think there would be much more to be gained for young people and minorities if the conversation was more about what you CAN do with regards to your police interactions. Most police are not bad people, and I don't think they hate one race more than the other. Sure there are bad police, but mostly they are just human. They are also human WITH a tremendous amount of power and responsibility. If you treat police with respect, you likely will go through life without a violent confrontation. If you dont, it can be said that somewhere inside many police is a little voice saying "just give me a reason"... At that point, the police doesn't care about your color, age, or sex. Brutality is in the eye of the beholder... and they have the power to be brutal.

If it's more important to you to finish your conversation, look tough in front of your friends, defend your entitled sense of what you deserve in the face of oppression, then... this might happen to you too.
 

JTLA

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I wish a young man didn't die and I wish there wasn't any rioting.

More importantly, I wish people were smarter about interactions with police.
I wish more conversations were had about how to interact with police.

I don't care what race you are and I don't care how rudely the police asks you. If a police asks you to get out of the street and you don't do it, what happens next is largely your fault.

I think there would be much more to be gained for young people and minorities if the conversation was more about what you CAN do with regards to your police interactions. Most police are not bad people, and I don't think they hate one race more than the other. Sure there are bad police, but mostly they are just human. They are also human WITH a tremendous amount of power and responsibility. If you treat police with respect, you likely will go through life without a violent confrontation. If you dont, it can be said that somewhere inside many police is a little voice saying "just give me a reason"... At that point, the police doesn't care about your color, age, or sex. Brutality is in the eye of the beholder... and they have the power to be brutal.

If it's more important to you to finish your conversation, look tough in front of your friends, defend your entitled sense of what you deserve in the face of oppression, then... this might happen to you too.

This is an admittedly long video, but a great tool for preparing yourself for police encounters.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/s4nQ_mFJV4I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

GoIrish41

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It sounds like it's understood that citizens in a community will shoot and kill each other....14 (the other 68 just got shot but not killed) in one weekend in this case...and there will be no public outcry (looting, rioting, vandelism, etc) or vigils. But one crazy cop (maybe) shoots and kills an innocent (maybe) citizen there is mayhem. It's ALL very sad.

The police are an institution whose sole purpose is to protect and serve citizens. When one of them kills someone -- especially someone who eye witnesses seem to think was doing nothing wrong, it evokes anger. When the act is committed -- again against a citizen who should have a resonable expectation that the cop is there to protect him -- there SHOULD be outrage. The cop has betrayed his oath and his duty to protect, and instead become the problem that people require protection from. And, incidently, the "community" you are talking about is the third largest city in the country. Chicago isn't even close to having the highest murder rate in the country. Despite recent shootings, Chicago nowhere near U.S. ‘murder capital’ | Pew Research Center Murders, sadly, have become commonplace across the nation and most people are numb to hearing about them anymore. However, when a cop does it -- that is something different. This incident also happened not long after the cops chocked a man to death in New York (I think) for selling individual smokes in the street. In that case, it was caught on camera and virtually everyone in America watched it happen. So, forgive people if they are a little more wary of police brutality than normal.
 

wizards8507

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I don't care what race you are and I don't care how rudely the police asks you. If a police asks you to get out of the street and you don't do it, what happens next is largely your fault.
This. When I was a teenager, some friends and I bought airsoft / BB guns at a Walmart and decided to unbox and assemble them in the car (bad idea). We didn't think anything of it, but someone mistook what she saw for a car full of people loading weapons and called the police. The car was surrounded by four or five officers with weapons drawn, screaming for us to to get out of the car and lie face down on the pavement. I kept my mouth shut, got out of the car, lied face down on the pavement, and the incident was over in three minutes.

The police are an institution whose sole purpose is to protect and serve citizens. When one of them kills someone -- especially someone who eye witnesses seem to think was doing nothing wrong, it evokes anger. When the act is committed -- again against a citizen who should have a resonable expectation that the cop is there to protect him -- there SHOULD be outrage.
I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment, but I do disagree with its application to THIS situation.

1. Appropriate outrage does not mean riot, steal, and vandalize.

2. Police officers have the same rights to due process as every other citizen. The officer, like any alleged criminal, is innocent until proven guilty.

3. The tragedy here is that a young man was killed. Those in the "grievance and outrage industry" want to make the fact that he was black the real story. It isn't and shouldn't be.
 
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GoIrish41

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Think Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson show up if the cop and victim are of the same skin tone?

Probably not, but I am not Al and Jesse's publicist either, so I won't presume to speak on their behalf. Has nothing to do with what I said anyway. I said there would be an outcry if cops killed that many people in Chicago.
 

GoIrish41

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I wish a young man didn't die and I wish there wasn't any rioting.

More importantly, I wish people were smarter about interactions with police.
I wish more conversations were had about how to interact with police.

I don't care what race you are and I don't care how rudely the police asks you. If a police asks you to get out of the street and you don't do it, what happens next is largely your fault.

I think there would be much more to be gained for young people and minorities if the conversation was more about what you CAN do with regards to your police interactions. Most police are not bad people, and I don't think they hate one race more than the other. Sure there are bad police, but mostly they are just human. They are also human WITH a tremendous amount of power and responsibility. If you treat police with respect, you likely will go through life without a violent confrontation. If you dont, it can be said that somewhere inside many police is a little voice saying "just give me a reason"... At that point, the police doesn't care about your color, age, or sex. Brutality is in the eye of the beholder... and they have the power to be brutal.

If it's more important to you to finish your conversation, look tough in front of your friends, defend your entitled sense of what you deserve in the face of oppression, then... this might happen to you too.

No matter if they are cops or not, it is always better to be respectful than disrespectful in every interaction. But when I was reading your post it occurred to me that maybe police should have a conversation about how to interact with citizens whom they are there to protect.
 

wizards8507

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But when I was reading your post it occurred to me that maybe police should have a conversation about how to interact with citizens whom they are there to protect.
That's way too simplistic and you know it. When you paint it as "protecting the citizens," everything is very cut-and-dry. The nuance that makes things difficult is the fact that the citizens are being protected from other citizens. Determining who needs protecting and who needs to be protected from is often a split-second decision with life-or-death consequences.
 

JTLA

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No matter if they are cops or not, it is always better to be respectful than disrespectful in every interaction. But when I was reading your post it occurred to me that maybe police should have a conversation about how to interact with citizens whom they are there to protect.

Police receive countless hours and training and certification on this. Just like every other job in America, some are better at it than others. That's just reality. Focusing on a lack of police training is fruitless for any reason other than political gain.
 

kmoose

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The police are an institution whose sole purpose is to protect and serve citizens. When one of them kills someone -- especially someone who eye witnesses seem to think was doing nothing wrong, it evokes anger. When the act is committed -- again against a citizen who should have a resonable expectation that the cop is there to protect him -- there SHOULD be outrage. The cop has betrayed his oath and his duty to protect, and instead become the problem that people require protection from. And, incidently, the "community" you are talking about is the third largest city in the country. Chicago isn't even close to having the highest murder rate in the country. Despite recent shootings, Chicago nowhere near U.S. ‘murder capital’ | Pew Research Center Murders, sadly, have become commonplace across the nation and most people are numb to hearing about them anymore. However, when a cop does it -- that is something different. This incident also happened not long after the cops chocked a man to death in New York (I think) for selling individual smokes in the street. In that case, it was caught on camera and virtually everyone in America watched it happen. So, forgive people if they are a little more wary of police brutality than normal.

Yet people who assume that poor black kids might be into something illegal are just racist bastards, right?
 

BobbyMac

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No matter if they are cops or not, it is always better to be respectful than disrespectful in every interaction. But when I was reading your post it occurred to me that maybe police should have a conversation about how to interact with citizens whom they are there to protect.

They have that "conversation" in training over and over....and 99.9% of them exhibit respectful behavior when interacting with said citizens.

On the flip side, can the same be said regarding the citizens nearing that percentage... especially in the young urban male 14-30 demo? The answer is no... and I don't need a link to support this position.
 

GoIrish41

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This. When I was a teenager, some friends and I bought airsoft / BB guns at a Walmart and decided to unbox and assemble them in the car (bad idea). We didn't think anything of it, but someone mistook what she saw for a car full of people loading weapons and called the police. The car was surrounded by four or five officers with weapons drawn, screaming for us to to get out of the car and lie face down on the pavement. I kept my mouth shut, got out of the car, lied face down on the pavement, and the incident was over in three minutes.


I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment, but I do disagree with its application to THIS situation.

1. Appropriate outrage does not mean riot, steal, and vandalize.

2. Police officers have the same rights to due process as every other citizen. The officer, like any alleged criminal, is innocent until proven guilty.

3. The tragedy here is that a young man was killed. Those in the "grievance and outrage industry" want to make the fact that he was black the real story. It isn't and shouldn't be.

1. Completely agree and have not said anything to the contrary. I denounce anyone who would commit such acts and believe they should be held to account for their actions.

2. Agreed ... the officers have rights, too. Except, that all too often in these cases the police conduct an internal investigation, find no wrong-doing and nothing happens except the victims' families are left without justice.

3. I don't know man, it's complicated. I suppose I agree that it shouldn't be a race issue, but it is difficult to deny that it is. Why were the cops hasseling the kid in the first place? Would they do the same to a white kid? I don't know ... they didn't in this case. Unfortunately, it seems from even a cursory look at arrests and court procedings that there is a pretty substantial amount of racism baked into the system. It's not like this is one incident in a vaccum -- it happens a lot ... so much so that it really should make all of us a little uncomfortable. I pointed out in another post where the cops choked a black guy to death for selling loose cigarettes. That shit makes people angry -- especially black people. The very institutions that are supposed to protect them are inflicting the harm.
 

Wild Bill

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I wish a young man didn't die and I wish there wasn't any rioting.

More importantly, I wish people were smarter about interactions with police.
I wish more conversations were had about how to interact with police.

I don't care what race you are and I don't care how rudely the police asks you. If a police asks you to get out of the street and you don't do it, what happens next is largely your fault.

It cuts both ways - police should should be smarter about interactions with law abiding citizens too. I have a right to disagree with a police officer, and walk where I choose. He can arrest me if he believes I've committed a crime, but he cannot use deadly force simply b/c I disobeyed him. It would be completely unreasonable for a citizen to assume an officer may use deadly force simply b/c his request wasn't met.

I don't know what the hell happened here. Maybe the officer was justified in using force. Maybe he wasn't. Disobeying his request isn't enough to justify the use of deadly force. I guess we'll find out.
 
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GoIrish41

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Police receive countless hours and training and certification on this. Just like every other job in America, some are better at it than others. That's just reality. Focusing on a lack of police training is fruitless for any reason other than political gain.

Surely we can agree that police forces should get rid of the ones who are pre-disposed to use excessive violence when it is not called for. Why are these cases so often swept under the rug and the cops who do bad things not thrown off the force or into prison?
 

GoIrish41

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Yet people who assume that poor black kids might be into something illegal are just racist bastards, right?

I have no idea how the line you bolded and this thought have anything to do with one another.
 
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