Rioting in St Louis

[T Town Tommy]

I predict that there will be some posters in this thread that will be eating a lot of crow in the near future.

 

[Emcee77]

I don't see how anyone can be certain about what happened in this case given the limited amount of information.

Right, this.

It's probably pointless but I'd caution everybody to try to avoid jumping to conclusions and just wait to see what investigators turn up.

Take it from someone who has some professional familiarity with evaluating claims of police misconduct: there are likely eyewitnesses on both sides who are lying. In crime-ridden neighborhoods, citizens lie reflexively because they just don't trust the cops or the justice system. On the other hand, cops have an incentive to lie because they want to protect their comrades and their livelihoods. It often takes careful investigation and careful comparison of conflicting accounts to get to the bottom of the matter, and even then, in the worst cases, it may become a matter of making a decision about which conflicting account you find most credible, a decision that is often sickeningly difficult if you weren't able to find any damning inconsistencies.

Hopefully in this case witnesses do emerge to vindicate the cop (while this shooting is troubling no matter why it was committed, it's certainly more troubling to me if the cop was at fault), but until that happens I am just waiting.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

AmCon's John Payne published an article yesterday titled "Ferguson and the Troubled Spirit of Saint Louis:"

I live in the city of St. Louis, about 10 miles south of the suburb of Ferguson as the crow flies. As I have watched national media cover the events in Ferguson over the past 10 days, I have wondered what impression people outside of St. Louis have formed about the city.

The first thing that outsiders should know is that Ferguson is not some post-urban hellscape. It’s a working class suburb with a roughly two-thirds majority black population, which is not unusual for communities in north St. Louis County. Nor is the city government and law enforcement exceptionally poorly managed or racist. That is not a compliment, however. Most St. Louisans think of our area as representative of the nation as a whole, and there is a great deal of truth to that. But, like the nation at large, St. Louis is still divided along racial lines. Ferguson exploded as a flash point specifically because of the shooting of Michael Brown, but many communities in the area are just tinderboxes waiting for a spark.

The St. Louis metropolitan area can largely be divided into five areas. First, there is the city of St. Louis itself, which seceded from St. Louis County in 1876, making it both a city and county under state law. A little more than 300,000 people call the city of St. Louis home, and it is almost equally divided between black and white. That’s true both in terms of numbers and geography, with Delmar Boulevard serving as a stark dividing line between the south (mostly white) and north (essentially all black) parts of the city.

A plurality of area residents live in St. Louis County, with just under a million people according to the last census. St. Louisans usually subdivide the county into the informal regions of south, west, and north, which some people actually mistake for counties themselves. To put it as briefly as possible, the south county region is working class and largely white; west county is middle and upper class and white; and north county is working class and largely black. The demographics of north county—where Ferguson is located—have changed the most in recent years, with many white residents moving into the outer counties—most notably by moving west across the Missouri River into St. Charles County.

Ferguson exemplifies the shifting demographics of north county. It was nearly three-quarters white in 1990 and is two-thirds black now. However, I do not want to give the impression that people are moving away from Ferguson because it is a particularly undesirable place to live. It is served by the Ferguson-Florissant School District, which is one of the better districts in north county. By contrast, the school districts of St. Louis, Jennings, Riverview Gardens, and Normandy School District—where Michael Brown graduated this spring—have all lost their state accreditation. And on the subject of school districts, I am obliged to mention what is often called “the St. Louis question”: Where did you go to high school? This single question can neatly profile your race, class, religious affiliation, and upbringing. The question speaks to a local insularity and desire to keep to one’s social milieu that is stronger in St. Louis than other metropolitan areas that I know.

That’s not necessarily problematic, but it is very easy to live in St. Louis and only interact with people of your background. That can quickly lead to labeling people who don’t fit that as other and unwelcome. I do not believe that St. Louisans harbor more racist attitudes than people in other cities, but they are more skeptical of those they consider to be outsiders.

That said, Ferguson law enforcement is hardly alone in struggling with race relations. Just a few miles away in 96.4 percent black Pine Lawn, the police department is well-known for hiring the castoffs of other area departments and is regarded as something of a public joke in the law enforcement community. In 2012, the NAACP lodged 20 complaints of civil rights violations with the city.

Since 2012, University City—home to Washington University, my alma mater—has imposed a 9:00 p.m. curfew on teenagers under 17 in the Delmar Loop, a popular strip of bars, restaurants, music venues, and retail shops. Of course, the mostly white college students are not affected by the curfew, but the black teenagers who live around the area are rounded up with regularity. Police enforce the policy with the “nuisance abatement vehicle,” which is an armored vehicle mounted with cameras that allow it to record all 360 degrees.

In the primarily black neighborhoods north of Delmar, violent crime remains a serious problem. Nevertheless, University City seems to invest more resources in chasing black teens away from more affluent areas in quasi-military vehicles than in protecting their lives. I’m sure that makes an impression.

It may come as a surprise, but the city of St. Louis enjoys relatively good race relations compared to some of the suburbs. Mayor Francis Slay is white, but President of the Board of Aldermen Lewis Reed, who is black, mounted a strong challenge to Slay in 2013.

Perhaps more importantly, the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department does not take a heavy-handed approach to minor offenses. For instance, possession of marijuana was decriminalized in the city last year. But even before the law was officially changed, city police did their best to avoid arresting low-level offenders, making only 58 arrests in 2011, compared to over 20,000 statewide. But even with the relaxed enforcement, the arrest numbers reflect a strong racial bias, blacks being more than 18 times more likely to be arrested for possession of marijuana than whites according to an ACLU report released last year.

In Ferguson itself, many people have seen the 2009 case where a black man was charged with bleeding on the uniforms of the Ferguson PD officers who beat him. But I know that police harassment is also a daily occurrence for many black residents. For instance, for the past three years, my best friend worked for an alternative learning center located at West Florissant and Canfield, just a few hundred yards from where Brown was shot. The center specializes in teaching students who dropped out but have come back to earn their diploma.

Even before this shooting, my friend complained frequently that the Ferguson police stopped and searched his students on their way to school nearly every morning. The problem became so bad that the teachers contacted their administration to ask for name tags for students so that the police would stop harassing them and allow them to get to class on time. In another case, a student was arrested and held for 24 hours because he was short and had dreadlocks, which matched the description of a robbery suspect—and probably a thousand other men in the area.

What happened in the Michael Brown case is still unclear, but what is clear is that the black community in Ferguson has lost all faith in local law enforcement. Speaking as someone who has lived in the area almost all of my adult life, I understand why. What’s more troubling is that I know that problem is hardly limited to Ferguson.

It's one of the most objective and well-written pieces on this issue I've come across.

 

[BobbyMac]

.
The race hustlers put their money on a lame horse simply because they liked the way it came out of the stable. It looked good through the paddock and up to the gate... where it stumbled at the bell, but continued... it labored around the track until halfway down the backstretch it was completely lame, where it was put down without ever crossing the finish line.

It's 8-20 and I'm calling this one.

.

 

[wizards8507]

The race hustlers put their money on a lame horse simply because they liked the way it came out of the stable. It looked good through the paddock and up to the gate... where it stumbled at the bell, but continued... it labored around the track until halfway down the backstretch it was completely lame, where it was put down without ever crossing the finish line.

It's 8-20 and I'm calling this one.

The race issue was always a non-starter. Worst case scenario is a police officer who used poor judgment and a quick trigger.

 

[BobbyMac]

The race issue was always a non-starter. Worst case scenario is a police officer who used poor judgment and a quick trigger.

Which doesn't exist without race in the hustler's world. They need the cop's AND institutional law enforcement hate towards blacks alone... not SES standing to make this their horse.

They don't care about the militarization of local law enforcement which is an issue here... or possible that there was a non racist / bad apple working the streets of Ferguson.

Those are the real things I worry about FIRST and then if their card is playable, that must be dealt with too absolutely

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

This is a microcosm of the relationship between black people and the police. All of this boiled over now. I know people here will say racism is dead or that racism against whites is the only racism around, but this is absolutely race-related, even if Wilson isn't a racist or this was justified. This is anger stemming from profiling, the drug war, and all of the black people who have been killed by cops.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

I also think the 1st amendment, militarization of police, and the lack of cameras on cops are the other major issues.

Thankfully the cop who threatened to murder journalists and protesters is off duty. Hopefully charges will be brought against him.

 

[T Town Tommy]

I also think the 1st amendment, militarization of police, and the lack of cameras on cops are the other major issues.

Thankfully the cop who threatened to murder journalists and protesters is off duty. Hopefully charges will be brought against him.

All of which are important topics and worthy of debate.

What should not be up for debate is the rule of law and individuals respecting that. Sadly, it appears that some want to throw the rule of law out the window in favor of a mob-like mentality where an individual is tried, convicted, and condemned not under that said rule of law but under something entirely different.

Let the facts in this case come out and then come to conclusions based on those facts. Our justice system isn't perfect by no means, but it has served our country very well over the course of the last few centuries.

 

[BobD]

I like my police department to have bigger and better equipment than the bad guys. You call it militarization, I call it prepared.

We still have racial issues in this country, but IMHO we are way off on who's fault that is.

 

[BGIF]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Police sources tell me more than a dozen witnesses have corroborated cop's version of events in shooting <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ferguson?src=hash">#Ferguson</a></p>— Christine Byers (@ChristineDByers) <a href="https://twitter.com/ChristineDByers/statuses/501556693382094848">August 19, 2014</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Christine Byers is a reporter for the St. Louis Dispatch BUT she is on family leave and not working much less working this story. Her employer apparently pointed that out to her and she has a follow up tweet.

The St. Louis Post-Dispatch did not report the information included in Byers' tweet, either in print or online on STLtoday.com.

Byers has tweeted today in regards to her tweet on Monday:

On FMLA from paper. Earlier tweets did not meet standards for publication.

 

[BGIF]

Ted Williams, African American criminal attorney, who has been reporting for Fox in Ferguson, earlier today announced that Fox has a source that Darren Wilson was severely beaten by Michael Brown in the police car altercation.

He claims this is a game changer as that would constitute a felony assault on an officer which changes the level of force an officer is allowed to use.

An African American defense attorney (I didn't catch his name) agreed with the significance of such a sustained injury. He added that medical reports, and forensics such as gunpowder residue and DNA (Brown's on the gun or Wilson's or Brown's DNA on each other) would be proof of the struggle as no witness has mentioned nor video shown Wilson touching Brown after the shooting.

He added such information would be presented to a grand jury and at any subsequent trial if an indictment is returned.


The defense attorney expert also stressed that the distance between Brown and Wilson when Wilson started firing is crucial in establishing Wilson's justification to neutralize a perceived threat to his life.

 

[BGIF]

Missouri cop was badly beaten before shooting Michael Brown, says source | Fox News

By Hollie McKayPublished August 20, 2014FoxNews.com

Darren Wilson, the Ferguson, Mo., police officer whose fatal shooting of Michael Brown touched off more than a week of demonstrations, suffered severe facial injuries, including an orbital (eye socket) fracture, and was nearly beaten unconscious by Brown moments before firing his gun, a source close to the department's top brass told FoxNews.com.

“The Assistant (Police) Chief took him to the hospital, his face all swollen on one side,” said the insider. “He was beaten very severely.”

...

A spokesman for the St. Louis County Police Department, citing the ongoing investigation, declined late Wednesday to say whether Wilson required medical treatment following the altercation.

Edward Magee, spokesman for St. Louis County Prosecutor Robert McCullough, said the office will not disclose the nature of the evidence it will reveal to a grand jury.

"We'll present every piece of evidence we have, witness statements, et cetera, to the grand jury, and we do not release any evidence or talk about evidence on the case."

...

On Friday, Ferguson police released surveillance video showing Brown stealing cigars from a convenience store just before his death. Jackson came under intense criticism for disclosing the tape and a related police report as he also insisted that the alleged robbery and the encounter with Wilson were unrelated matters. Brown’s family, through their attorney, suggested the tape’s release was a strategic form of “character assassination.”

However, FoxNews.com’s source insisted that there was absolutely no spin agenda behind the tape’s release and that there were a number of Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) media requests filed by media outlets seeking it. Tom Jackson is said to have waited on publicly releasing it, and did not want it shown until Brown’s grieving mother first had the chance to see it.

“He defied the FOIAs as long as he could,” noted the insider. “A powerful, ugly spin has completely ruined public discourse on this whole situation.”

 

[BGIF]

Quite night so far in Ferguson. One CNN reporter noted where there had been 1000 demonstrators two nights ago now there were 18 by his count.

On a replay on MSNBC at 10:00 pm Chris Hayes said there were about 100 marchers and attributed the lower numbers to tired demonstrators and the difficulty the police made it to protest, i.e., The police were keeping the protestors away.

 

[BGIF]

Grand Jury Info

Grand Jury Info

Per Nancy Grace

12 jurors
Members from St. Louis Co
Proceedings closed to the public
Only 3/4 must agree on indictment


Evidence GJ may see
Testimony from Darren Wilson
PhotosVideos
Crime scene evidence
Autopsy reports

 

[West Coast Domer]

And this poor guy will never be able to return to his home.

Mike Brown won't be able to either.

 

[BGIF]

On the Nancy Grace Show

Daryl Parks, the Brown family attorney, acknowledges there was a major altercation at the car with the officer in the car.

He disagreed that Wilson had sustained a significant face injury citing the lack of blood showing on Wilson's face in the Piaget Crenshaw video taken from 50 - 100 feet from Wilson and that Wilson didn't appear to be in pain.

Dr William Maroney, Shawn Parcells and Lt Gen Honore were also on this show.

Parcells pointed out Brown was 6-4 and Wilson is shorter. The only way to get the bullet angles was if Brown was close to the ground.

Dr. Maroney explained the eyebrow shoot was traveling at 180 mph and hit dense bone deflecting downward toward the jaw. He noted this bullet's impact could have jerked Brown's head downward exposing the top of the skull to the kill shot.

After commercial Grace went to Gen Honore to talk about riot control procedures.

She then hopskotched to Philip Holloway former cop and prosecutor discussed allowed use of force.

Daryl Parks iterated that Wilson shot at a fleeing man which is not permissable.

Commercial break

Caller asked about dash cam or shoulder cam. Response was they were in Ferguson PD as they had not yet been installed.

After emphasizing a half dozen times that this is a Secret Grand Jury, she acknowledged that all grand jury were closed to the public and hence is secret. (she should have said that from the top instead of feeding the public's perception of obfuscation.

Two other attorneys expect Wilson to testify voluntarily to establish reasonable cause and justified shooting.

Grace asked Parks, Brown attorney, to restate his case. He noted, "the witnesses saw ... by the way they call him Mike-Mike ...

They then went to commercial ... And came back with the Jody Arias trial coverage.

A couple of interesting snippets but overall a disjointed, BS show.

 

[BGIF]

Phillip Agnew, Director of Dream Defenders, Miami FL, was interviewed by Chris Hayes, MSNBC.

Agnew commended DOL's Holder for coming to Ferguson but added now he he needs to open investigations into NYC, Miami, and other cities with abusive police forces. Agnew added the people want Wilson arrested and D.A. McCullough replaced. "McCullough has NEVER convicted a police officer in the killing of a black man." He never offered how many incidents there have been during McCullough's tenure as St. Louis Co D.A.

Earlier tonight I heard that this was the first police killing in Ferguson.


I wasn't able find the number of police killing of blacks in St Louis Co nor McCullough's prosecution record.

 

[BGIF]

Free Speech? Balanced Reporting?

Free Speech? Balanced Reporting?

Interesting incident last night.

A couple of protestors showed up in support of Wilson. They were quickly surrounded by other demonstrators. Police intervened and they were whisked away.

With all the complaints about suppression of Free Speech over the past two weeks, the demonstrators demonstrated their suppression of speech which doesn't conform to their agenda.


MSNBC's Chris Hayes pointed out the reduced number of local demonstrators (about 100 last night) was due to police interference. Surprisingly he was mute on the first Wilson demonstrators and the majorities hostility.

 

[connect the dots]

Interesting incident last night.

A couple of protestors showed up in support of Wilson. They were quickly surrounded by other demonstrators. Police intervened and they were whisked away.

With all the complaints about suppression of Free Speech over the past two weeks, the demonstrators demonstrated their suppression of speech which doesn't conform to their agenda.


MSNBC's Chris Hayes pointed out the reduced number of local demonstrators (about 100 last night) was due to police interference. Surprisingly he was mute on the first Wilson demonstrators and the majorities hostility.

Discretionary and prudent work on the part of the police. Suppression of free speech? More like a confrontational group looking for trouble in all the wrong places. More an example of a group searching for lights, action, camera, and on with the motley!

 

[Booslum31]

This is a microcosm of the relationship between black people and the police. All of this boiled over now. I know people here will say racism is dead or that racism against whites is the only racism around, but this is absolutely race-related, even if Wilson isn't a racist or this was justified. This is anger stemming from profiling, the drug war, and all of the black people who have been killed by cops.

This isn't what is filling up the ER's of our inner-city Hospitals...

 

[kmoose]

On the Nancy Grace Show

Daryl Parks, the Brown family attorney, acknowledges there was a major altercation at the car with the officer in the car.

He disagreed that Wilson had sustained a significant face injury citing the lack of blood showing on Wilson's face in the Piaget Crenshaw video taken from 50 - 100 feet from Wilson and that Wilson didn't appear to be in pain.

Dr William Maroney, Shawn Parcells and Lt Gen Honore were also on this show.

Parcells pointed out Brown was 6-4 and Wilson is shorter. The only way to get the bullet angles was if Brown was close to the ground.

Dr. Maroney explained the eyebrow shoot was traveling at 180 mph and hit dense bone deflecting downward toward the jaw. He noted this bullet's impact could have jerked Brown's head downward exposing the top of the skull to the kill shot.

After commercial Grace went to Gen Honore to talk about riot control procedures.

She then hopskotched to Philip Holloway former cop and prosecutor discussed allowed use of force.

Daryl Parks iterated that Wilson shot at a fleeing man which is not permissable.

Commercial break

Caller asked about dash cam or shoulder cam. Response was they were in Ferguson PD as they had not yet been installed.

After emphasizing a half dozen times that this is a Secret Grand Jury, she acknowledged that all grand jury were closed to the public and hence is secret. (she should have said that from the top instead of feeding the public's perception of obfuscation.

Two other attorneys expect Wilson to testify voluntarily to establish reasonable cause and justified shooting.

Grace asked Parks, Brown attorney, to restate his case. He noted, "the witnesses saw ... by the way they call him Mike-Mike ...

They then went to commercial ... And came back with the Jody Arias trial coverage.

A couple of interesting snippets but overall a disjointed, BS show.

Even at 2 in the morning, I am tempted to file for revocation of your man card, for watching Nancy Grace. That bitch is insane! She's an incredibly amateurish female PT Barnum. EVERYTHING is high drama, and theatrics, with her.

 

[BGIF]

Discretionary and prudent work on the part of the police.

Prudent crowd control. But I wasn't talking about the police. The intervened AFTER the majority protesters got confrontational.

Suppression of free speech? More like a confrontational group looking for trouble in all the wrong places. More an example of a group searching for lights, action, camera, and on with the motley!

Group? The news article starts "A Darren Wilson supporter ... " A as in ONE.

The photo is a solitary white woman. On the TV report she got in the police van with a 50 or 60 year old white guy. They didn't say if he was a demonstrator or a cop. Group of ... two?

Check the photo of the woman in the article. They stated she wore a "bright, multicolored shirt". Notice the woman has no hoodie, no mask, no keffiyeh, not even a Hermes scarf to hide her identity.

Her provocative action was carrying a sign that read:

Vigorous prosecution Jay Nixon?? Justice is for everybody even P.O. Wilson

I thought the crowds of the past 10 nights wanted justice? Doesn't it apply to everybody? Or just to a mob looking for a lynching?


Darren Wilson supporter crashes pro-Michael Brown protest: ‘Justice is for everybody’ - NY Daily News

 

[BGIF]

Even at 2 in the morning, I am tempted to file for revocation of your man card, for watching Nancy Grace. That bitch is insane! She's an incredibly amateurish female PT Barnum. EVERYTHING is high drama, and theatrics, with her.

I can't stand Nancy Grace or her brunette clone twit.

One wife followed the Casey Anthony saga nightly. I couldn't deal with Grace's constant shouting (as does the brunette) throughout a show. She's like a bad rock band that has no talent so they play at a constant 140 decibels.

At 2am I was flicking through CNN, Fox, and MSNBC trying to find an update when I saw her on HLN (between CNN and Fox on my cable) promoting Brown's attorney had unequivocal proof that Wilson had NOT sustained any injuries which was contrary to the other stations reports. Instead of proof he spun the cell phone video shot from 75-100 feet away after Brown was dead in the street. His "proof" was the lack of visible blood on Wilson in the video.

I stayed tune through her show waiting for something real news. Insomnia is a terrible thing to waste, and Grace was a waste.


BTW, how do you hold a Man Card being such an authority on Grace?

 

[BGIF]

Progress!

Progress!

Governor orders drawdown of National Guard in Ferguson - CNN.com

Ferguson, Missouri (CNN) -- The tide may be turning in Ferguson, Missouri.
For the first time since a white police officer fatally shot unarmed black teenager Michael Brown, the streets emptied early Thursday.

 

[kmoose]

I can't stand Nancy Grace or her brunette clone twit.

One wife followed the Casey Anthony saga nightly. I couldn't deal with Grace's constant shouting (as does the brunette) throughout a show. She's like a bad rock band that has no talent so they play at a constant 140 decibels.

At 2am I was flicking through CNN, Fox, and MSNBC trying to find an update when I saw her on HLN (between CNN and Fox on my cable) promoting Brown's attorney had unequivocal proof that Wilson had NOT sustained any injuries which was contrary to the other stations reports. Instead of proof he spun the cell phone video shot from 75-100 feet away after Brown was dead in the street. His "proof" was the lack of visible blood on Wilson in the video.

I stayed tune through her show waiting for something real news. Insomnia is a terrible thing to waste, and Grace was a waste.


BTW, how do you hold a Man Card being such an authority on Grace?

Male gynecologists know all about vaginas, but that doesn't make them women.
By "the brunette", I assume you mean Jane Velez Mitchell? She makes Nancy Grace look like downright sane and reasonable!

 

[ndfi78]

One wife followed the Casey Anthony saga nightly. I couldn't deal with Grace's constant shouting (as does the brunette) throughout a show. She's like a bad rock band that has no talent so they play at a constant 140 decibels.

You have multiple?

Cody Brown, is that you?

 

[Irish Insanity]

.

 

[BobD]

George Zimmerman Arrested While Visiting Ferguson - National Report | National Report

NFW

 

[Irish Insanity]

NFW

Way