Redskins

[Bluto]

There is a distinct difference in basically telling a cop you are going to kill his white ass versus a team named Redskins.

I'm not disputing that what he did and said was wrong. A number of posters immediately condemned it as "racist". How is the term "white boy" any more racist than "redskin"?

 

[gkIrish]

I'm not disputing that what he did and said was wrong. A number of posters immediately condemned it as "racist". How is the term "white boy" any more racist than "redskin"?

It's not calling someone "white" that's racist...it's threatening to kill them because they are white.

 

[Bluto]

It's not calling someone "white" that's racist...it's threatening to kill them because they are white.

And that act carries more weight than having actually engaged in genocide against "redskins"?

 

[gkIrish]

And that act carries more weight than having actually engaged in genocide against "redskins"?

Not sure what you're looking for here but:

There are a whole lot of terms used to describe Native Americans

The Racial Slur Database

The question is whether the use of "Redskin" as a name of the team is intended to be racist. IMO it's not---while Mahone's actions show that what he said was racist.

 

[kmoose]

The premise by which the trademarks were cancelled by a 2-1 vote is that "Redskins" is a disparaging, offensive slur. It would be a HUGE stretch to equate any of the terms you've referred to as "slurs."

I get what you are saying, but........

What are you going to do, when someone convinces 30% of Native Americans to believe that Illini is a derogatory term?

 

[Bluto]

Not sure what you're looking for here but:

There are a whole lot of terms used to describe Native Americans

The Racial Slur Database

The question is whether the use of "Redskin" as a name of the team is intended to be racist. IMO it's not---while Mahone's actions show that what he said was racist.

It has very little to do with intent. The fact of the matter it is offensive to the a large segment of the group it describes. Given that fact and that groups historic and continued experience within the larger culture I think it's pretty despicable that someone would want to patent it and use it as team name.

Now, Washington White Boys has a certain ring to it. Just slap a picture of Waldo (who may or may not represent the archetypical white boy) on the helmet and we're good to go.

 

[IrishGlory]

To be safe, do we need to force Lance and Nabisco to change the name of crackers because it might offend an overly sensitive caucasian person. Think about it...how offensive is Cracker Barrel or even Cracker Jacks?

 

[Emcee77]

Minor, nit-picking, huge freakin point:

The gov't hasn't said they can't be named the Redskins or that they have to change their name. Only that disparaging remarks can't be trademarked. Blame that on Harry Truman...

Haha right. The effect of this decision will be very limited, if it even stands up in court.

Some people are asking whether this will open the floodgates and turn the tide of public opinion, but legal opinions rarely do that, and if they do, they have to come from a higher authority than the TTAB. More commonly, law follows public opinion, not the reverse.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what a federal court does with it.

 

[connor_in]

And that act carries more weight than having actually engaged in genocide against "redskins"?

HOLD ON! The pro football team in Washington DC engaged in genocide?!?!?!??????

You'd think something like that would make the news!

 

[Bluto]

HOLD ON! The pro football team in Washington DC engaged in genocide?!?!?!??????

You'd think something like that would make the news!

I wonder if you go on pro Israeli websites and make jokes about the holocaust? Somehow I doubt it. I wonder how it would go over if a present day German soccer team named themselves the Juden? Historic context has a lot to do with this discussion.

 

[IrishLax]

I get what you are saying, but........

What are you going to do, when someone convinces 30% of Native Americans to believe that Illini is a derogatory term?

Yeah I dunno. Good point kmoose. It seems impossible to me that you take a literal name and say that the name is "offensive." What happens when a Michigan fan convinces 30% of Irish people that "Irish" is derogatory? Seems ludicrous but it's hypothetically possible. That's the problem with completely subjective emotions being legislated into law... law becomes no longer about any sort of judicial black-and-white but instead about the emotion/whims of the judge.

What's crazy about the ruling, is that the only one who really tried to tie it back to the letter of the law the dissenting judge in his 18-page opinion:

To be clear, this case is not about the controversy, currently playing out in the media, over whether the term ‘redskins,’ as the name of Washington’s professional football team, is disparaging to Native Americans today.

It is astounding that the petitioners did not submit any evidence regarding the Native American population during the relevant time frame, nor did they introduce any evidence or argument as to what comprises a substantial composite of that population, thereby leaving it to the majority to make petitioner’s case have some semblance of meaning.

Basically, the case boiled down to 5 people saying "we feel this way" and two judges saying "we feel the same way." The last judge says "you've presented absolutely no evidence that, at the time the trademarks were approved, a large portion of the Native American population of the United States held strong beliefs that the name was disparaging."

Meanwhile, the USPO has approved trademarks with "nigga" in it... to say there is inconsistency and a double standard would be a gross understatement. I don't care about the Redskins and their name, I do care about what happens when 5 Irish people who feel offended bring a case with zero evidence besides their subjective feelings against Notre Dame. Remember, people actually tried to get FSU to change their name and had them added to the list of "hostile and abusive" schools towards native Americans despite overwhelming support by the Florida Seminole Tribe. It wasn't until an 18-2 vote (90%... roughly the number that the flawed Anneberg study said didn't mind the term Redskins) by the Seminole Nation General Council to explicitly sanction the use of the mascot that the NCAA reluctantly removed FSU from their list in 2005. Even after that, there are still people pushing for FSU to change their name and you can find such petitions online. The NCAA ultimately said: "The decision of a namesake sovereign tribe, regarding when and how its name and imagery can be used, must be respected even when others may not agree."

I just don't know where it stops. What happens if the vote was 12-8 instead of 18-2 because of the Oklahoma Seminoles? When judges start voting on emotion, it's a very scary and very slippery slope.

 

[IrishLax]

It has very little to do with intent. The fact of the matter it is offensive to the a large segment of the group it describes. Given that fact and that groups historic and continued experience within the larger culture I think it's pretty despicable that someone would want to patent it and use it as team name.

Can you define "large"? I have not seen one piece of data that a large majority of Native Americans are strongly offended by the name.

If it's truly the case that 80%-90% of Native Americans take large offense to the name, then I don't think you'd find many people questioning the merits of a ruling like this. But as the dissenting opinion points out, there isn't a shred of evidence being presented right now by the petitioners that that's the case. Further, the fact that there are numerous high schools and other Native American organizations that utilize the term "Redskin" undermines the idea that the term is universally found unacceptable by Native Americans.

 

[connor_in]

I wonder if you go on pro Israeli websites and make jokes about the holocaust? Somehow I doubt it. I wonder how it would go over if a present day German soccer team named themselves the Juden? Historic context has a lot to do with this discussion.

Oh, so your previous item I was commenting on was serious and you believe the NFL's Washington football team is reponsible for genocide? Pardon me.

If you are offended, that is your right.

PS: I wasn't make a joke about redskins or any atrocities involved with native americans. I was making a joke and a point about your post. By the way, if a group of German Jews did put together a team called the Deutsche Juden Fussball (sorry I have no eszett on my keyboard) Mannschaft, would you be offended then?

 

[Cackalacky]

Oh, so your previous item I was commenting on was serious and you believe the NFL's Washington football team is reponsible for genocide? Pardon me.

If you are offended, that is your right.

PS: I wasn't make a joke about redskins or any atrocities involved with native americans. I was making a joke and a point about your post. By the way, if a group of German Jews did put together a team called the Deutsche Juden Fussball (sorry I have no eszett on my keyboard) Mannschaft, would you be offended then?

I am pretty sure a large population would be offended by this. Probably some political people as well. Particularly those with access to nuclear bombs....

At a minimum this name would be politically terrible, financially terrible and make little sense.

 

[RDU Irish]

Not sure what you're looking for here but:

There are a whole lot of terms used to describe Native Americans

The Racial Slur Database

The question is whether the use of "Redskin" as a name of the team is intended to be racist. IMO it's not---while Mahone's actions show that what he said was racist.

They have an app for that? Not sure how I have made it this far in life without accessing the "Racial Slur Database".

And Bluto - reports I have seen indicate 90% of Native Americans are NOT offended by the Washington Redskins. This whole thing is pure BS and embarrassing. If anything removing all Native American references only pushes the race to obscurity.

 

[connor_in]

I am pretty sure a large population would be offended by this. Probably some political people as well. Particularly those with access to nuclear bombs....

At a minimum this name would be politically terrible, financially terrible and make little sense.

Considering I referred to a team made up of German Jews, if they were good, why wouldn't they want it to be known that the Deutsche Juden Fussball Manschaft could beat anyone in their league.

Heck somewhere on this site there was a discussion of some either rec league or gus macker team or something that called themselves something derogatory to white people, and they were selling t-shirts with the team name on it nationally via the internet.

There are people who make big bucks on being offensive to others

 

[Huntr]

TIL: Racial slurs are ok, as long as the majority of people aren't offended.

 

[Cackalacky]

TIL: Racial slurs are ok, as long as the majority of people aren't offended.

Right. And money is not involved. And as long as you are the one using it are not offended either.

 

[Cackalacky]

Considering I referred to a team made up of German Jews, if they were good, why wouldn't they want it to be known that the Deutsche Juden Fussball Manschaft could beat anyone in their league.

Heck somewhere on this site there was a discussion of some either rec league or gus macker team or something that called themselves something derogatory to white people, and they were selling t-shirts with the team name on it nationally via the internet.

There are people who make big bucks on being offensive to others

#okthen....wow. I'm out. Have fun guys.

 

[connor_in]

I see on that database that the term "indian" is listed since indians are from India and the people here are native americans. But yet all across this country are teams named the Indians, where is the outrage? Notre Dame is located in Indiana...where is the outrage and the calls to change the name of the state?

 

[gkIrish]

TIL: Racial slurs are ok, as long as the majority of people aren't offended.

How is a word a slur if most of the targeted group of people aren't offended by it?

 

[ACamp1900]

As someone who has a slight lisp I am offended by the term ‘slur’

 

[GoIrish41]

Considering I referred to a team made up of German Jews, if they were good, why wouldn't they want it to be known that the Deutsche Juden Fussball Manschaft could beat anyone in their league.

Heck somewhere on this site there was a discussion of some either rec league or gus macker team or something that called themselves something derogatory to white people, and they were selling t-shirts with the team name on it nationally via the internet.

There are people who make big bucks on being offensive to others

Yes. Daniel Snyder is one of them.

 

[connor_in]

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, LET'S WELCOME YOUR HOME TEAM...


THE WASHINGTON KUMBUYAH

THE WASHINGTON HOT AIR

THE WASHINGTON PORK BARRELS

THE WASHINGTON LAWYERS

THE WASHINGTON BUREAUCRATS


Go ahead and use one for the basketball team there too as many religious people do not like the references to wizards or magic.

 

[Emcee77]

TIL: Racial slurs are ok, as long as the majority of people aren't offended.

Haha.

It's a good point. It does sound ridiculous when you put it like that.

I suppose when I really think about it, any racial epithet for the name of a sports team makes me uncomfortable, no matter how benign or how few people are offended.

We are talking about a term that refers to a physical characteristic of an entire race or ethnicity. Redskin seems to me very different from Brave, for instance. A Brave is a Native American warrior, right? But Redskin is a blanket term for any Native American.

I can't think of any comparable term that I would be ok with.

So maybe it doesn't matter how many people are offended. On that objective basis, the term is to be avoided, would be the argument.

Reps for making me think, Huntr.

 

[GoIrish41]

How is a word a slur if most of the targeted group of people aren't offended by it?

So if there are 4 million native Americans and only 20 percent of them are offended by the term, it is still OK to use it because only 800,000 are offended? Pretty low bar.

 

[gkIrish]

So if there are 4 million native Americans and only 20 percent of them are offended by the term, it is still OK to use it because only 800,000 are offended? Pretty low bar.

Except it's not 80%. And I was only commenting on the assertion made by Huntr that a word is a racial slur if a minority of people believe it is.

 

[gkIrish]

I have yet to see someone counter the argument about "Fighting Irish." What if a bunch of Irish Americans started causing an uproar about being stereotyped as Fighters bla bla bla and wanted us to change our name. Then what?

 

[IrishLax]

So if there are 4 million native Americans and only 20 percent of them are offended by the term, it is still OK to use it because only 800,000 are offended? Pretty low bar.

Where would you draw the line? 0%? 1%? 5%? 10%?

 

[GoIrish41]

I have yet to see someone counter the argument about "Fighting Irish." What if a bunch of Irish Americans started causing an uproar about being stereotyped as Fighters bla bla bla and wanted us to change our name. Then what?

Then it gets changed.