Projects/Home Improvement Thread

[phork]

To remodel my basement and add a bedroom and full bath down there, the estimated material cost is ~7K. I'm waiting on a bid from a licensed contracting company, and wondering what I should expect for markup, AKA, what will be tacked on for labor? If they come to me and say 'we'll bid total job at 12K, or we'll bid total job at 18K', I have no idea which is realistic and which is a rip off. Any advice on normal markup for a job that will take a solid 4 weeks?

Generally its the entire material cost x2.

 

[Irish Insanity]

If I did it myself it'd probably decrease in value and I'd have a pipe shooting water out of the bedroom window.

Typically your 'finishes' are what will make or break your budget. Framing a wall, drywall, even electrical and behind the wall plumbing, aren't what sets the budget. It's the finishes and how frugal you can be with them.

 

[Wild Bill]

I bought the place with the basement as is and had no plans for it. It's 100 year old, cinderblock foundation and to me, is storage and place for laundry.

However, there's two unfinished rooms that are incredibly small and collecting dust. One is a storage room that's 8.5' by 10.5', and the other is the start of a bathroom, and it has the plumbing to the shower already running and a damn toilet that actually flushes.

That's why I'm looking to this - the plumbing and electrical is already ran, and that's probably the biggest expense so I feel like I need to capitalize on what the previous owner started.

If finished, the 8.5 x 10.5 would serve as a bedroom with a sliding door that goes into the full bath. The upstairs people would still have to come down to use laundry (which would have a separate door so privacy is still available), and the basement person would have to go upstairs to use kitchen, but I could get $600 a month for the new room I estimate.

How old is the plumbing and electric?

 

[Irish Insanity]

I bought the place with the basement as is and had no plans for it. It's 100 year old, cinderblock foundation and to me, is storage and place for laundry.

However, there's two unfinished rooms that are incredibly small and collecting dust. One is a storage room that's 8.5' by 10.5', and the other is the start of a bathroom, and it has the plumbing to the shower already running and a damn toilet that actually flushes.

That's why I'm looking to this - the plumbing and electrical is already ran, and that's probably the biggest expense so I feel like I need to capitalize on what the previous owner started.

If finished, the 8.5 x 10.5 would serve as a bedroom with a sliding door that goes into the full bath. The upstairs people would still have to come down to use laundry (which would have a separate door so privacy is still available), and the basement person would have to go upstairs to use kitchen, but I could get $600 a month for the new room I estimate.

If this is all you intend to do, not a complete finish of a basement, then you should be well below $20k

 

[koonja]

How old is the plumbing and electric?

Electrical was upgraded in 2004 according to the box. Plumbing - no idea. How would I have an idea of how old it is?

 

[Wild Bill]

Electrical was upgraded in 2004 according to the box. Plumbing - no idea. How would I have an idea of how old it is?

You may want to have a plumber camera the sewer before you do anything. That'd be a huge kick in the balls if you finished the area and then had to remove/demo to replace pipes.

You could run a hose into the drain for a while to see if it's draining properly but probably better off getting it tested.

What's the total square footage that you're going to finish?

 

[koonja]

You may want to have a plumber camera the sewer before you do anything. That'd be a huge kick in the balls if you finished the area and then had to remove/demo to replace pipes.

You could run a hose into the drain for a while to see if it's draining properly but probably better off getting it tested.

What's the total square footage that you're going to finish?

It's a licensed company doing the bidding so I assume they'd check the pipes to make sure they're clear, but than you for the heads up- I'll make sure they do that because you're right.

Total square footage is 400.

 

[phgreek]

It's a licensed company doing the bidding so I assume they'd check the pipes to make sure they're clear, but than you for the heads up- I'll make sure they do that because you're right.

Total square footage is 400.

Koon,

all of the following assumes you have any moisture issues under control...

I didn't read your entire saga, but if the floor is not dirt, you can do some incredible things on the cheap...I saw acid stained cement floors that really do something to the room. I've also seen some very nice paneling done with...believe it or not, pallet wood. Again cheap. The other alternatives are wooden fence slats, or toung and groove boards if you want to dress it up more. Anyway, the prep was easy, and they glued 1X1 to the cinder block in regular intervals (every 16") horizontally, then stapled black roofing paper up, and brad nailed the pallet wood to the glued studs, then ran 1X4 rough cut lumber as the baseboard and door casing...no mitre cuts, just butted them up. The roof paper allows for you to leave knot holes and imperfections without showing the cinder block. It looked cool and he was in the project less than a grand. ...rustic, cool...but considered finished for resale...Did it in two weekends.

 

[Irish#1]

How old is the plumbing and electric?

Electrical was upgraded in 2004 according to the box. Plumbing - no idea. How would I have an idea of how old it is?

That's what I was wondering when I was getting caught up reading. Make sure the electrical and plumbing are both up to code. Otherwise you may be paying to fix it.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Working on replacing our AC and furnace and while we're at it, we're building a wall under a glue/screw laminated beam to raise the joists 1-2 inches near our stairwell.

Our home is roughly 100 years old and whoever did the HVAC retrofit thought they could chop through the true 2 x 8 joists with impunity. Specifically the joists that run next to the staircase where the heaviest load exists. The floors have sunk roughly 2 inches since they did it (who knows when that was).

So now we're laminating 3 - 2 x 8s to create a 6 x 8 beam that we're running perpendicular to the rest of the joists, right down the center (between where they rest on the original stone foundation).

Expecting drywall to crack and trim to buckle/pull away from the walls so, I have at least a year's worth of projects. I was really hoping to do some landscape work this year but it'll likely be pushed off until next year.

 

[woolybug25]

I bought the place with the basement as is and had no plans for it. It's 100 year old, cinderblock foundation and to me, is storage and place for laundry.

However, there's two unfinished rooms that are incredibly small and collecting dust. One is a storage room that's 8.5' by 10.5', and the other is the start of a bathroom, and it has the plumbing to the shower already running and a damn toilet that actually flushes.

That's why I'm looking to this - the plumbing and electrical is already ran, and that's probably the biggest expense so I feel like I need to capitalize on what the previous owner started.

If finished, the 8.5 x 10.5 would serve as a bedroom with a sliding door that goes into the full bath. The upstairs people would still have to come down to use laundry (which would have a separate door so privacy is still available), and the basement person would have to go upstairs to use kitchen, but I could get $600 a month for the new room I estimate.

A few things. First, this isn't that expensive. But you can easily fuck it up, even licensed contractors.

What type of basement do you have? Are the walls poured concrete or a "Michigan Basement" found in older houses. Build of rocks and such? Are the walls floor to ceiling or is there a ledge? This matters, as moisture control is one of the most important parts of remodeling a basement. I just demo'd a basement of one of my rentals for this reason. Black mold erry'where.

Anywho, make sure you do your research on a proper vapor barrier to protect the drywall, check the electric/plumbing and make sure you keep a dehumidifier in there. Even if you're not done building it out yet, as the fresh drywall we be exposed to too much moisture and you can lock it in the walls.

400 square feet of room (drywall, carpet, etc) including a bathroom. You can do it between $1,500 - $3,500 if you do it yourself. If you pay contractors, it depends on their hourly labor rate.

 

[koonja]

A few things. First, this isn't that expensive. But you can easily fuck it up, even licensed contractors.

What type of basement do you have? Are the walls poured concrete or a "Michigan Basement" found in older houses. Build of rocks and such? Are the walls floor to ceiling or is there a ledge? This matters, as moisture control is one of the most important parts of remodeling a basement. I just demo'd a basement of one of my rentals for this reason. Black mold erry'where.

Anywho, make sure you do your research on a proper vapor barrier to protect the drywall, check the electric/plumbing and make sure you keep a dehumidifier in there. Even if you're not done building it out yet, as the fresh drywall we be exposed to too much moisture and you can lock it in the walls.

400 square feet of room (drywall, carpet, etc) including a bathroom. You can do it between $1,500 - $3,500 if you do it yourself. If you pay contractors, it depends on their hourly labor rate.

The walls are cinder block, I'm honestly not sure how to describe them better than that. The contractors that have come out have not mentioned moisture control at all, but I'm assuming they have a plan for that. When they give their estimate today, I'll be sure to bring that up and ask what the current state is and what their plan is. Especially important since there will be a shower down there creating moisture. Thanks for the heads up.

It looks about like this and I'd say this is what shape it's pretty close to being in. This house is ancient.

http://inspectapedia.com/sickhouse/Effloresence095-DJFs.jpg

 

[wizards8507]

Koon, how high are the ceilings? We looked at houses anywhere from the 1700s to late 2000s when we moved here and some of those older basements are low. If you don't have comfortable clearance, don't bother finishing it. It'll feel gloomy and claustrophobic and nobody will ever want to spend any time down there anyways.

ETA: Reading about the shower and moisture control, is there a vent in place? I have no idea what the laws look like out there, but I know Connecticut has some asinine coding laws about duct work for any kind of shower modifications.

 

[koonja]

Koon, how high are the ceilings? We looked at houses anywhere from the 1700s to late 2000s when we moved here and some of those older basements are low. If you don't have comfortable clearance, don't bother finishing it. It'll feel gloomy and claustrophobic and nobody will ever want to spend any time down there anyways.

They're low - 6'8" to the finish. Minneapolis legal minimum is 6'4" for a living quarters, but they're apparently more lenient with that in older homes since there's nothing you can really do about it. It wouldn't be fancy living, but it's a private bedroom and full bath in the most desirable place in the cities for anyone without a family, so I can easily squeeze $600 a month out for it, even with the discomfort of the height. The loan would be ~ $460 for 5 years for ~$18K to do the job.

After that, I've gone from a 4 bedroom, 2 bath, to 5 bedroom, 3 bath while having someone pay the loan for the 5 year period.

 

[woolybug25]

They're low - 6'8" to the finish. Minneapolis legal minimum is 6'4" for a living quarters, but they're apparently more lenient with that in older homes since there's nothing you can really do about it. It wouldn't be fancy living, but it's a private bedroom and full bath in the most desirable place in the cities for anyone without a family, so I can easily squeeze $600 a month out for it, even with the discomfort of the height. The loan would be ~ $460 for 5 years for ~$18K to do the job.

After that, I've gone from a 4 bedroom, 2 bath, to 5 bedroom, 3 bath while having someone pay the loan for the 5 year period.

Yowzas. That is low. Is that a finished or drop tile ceiling?

 

[koonja]

Yowzas. That is low. Is that a finished or drop tile ceiling?

IDK the jargon for exactly what a finished ceiling means to you housing lords, but that's finished with sheetrock and painted. It's low - there's no denying. If this was an 8' ceiling and people wouldn't have to come down here to do laundry, I could get $750-800 for the room. But I'd lower the price because I understand it's not exactly cribs. This house is all about location, if anyone's aware of Minneapolis, it's .5 miles East of Lake Calhoun.

 

[woolybug25]

IDK the jargon for exactly what a finished ceiling means to you housing lords, but that's finished with sheetrock and painted. It's low - there's no denying. If this was an 8' ceiling and people wouldn't have to come down here to do laundry, I could get $750-800 for the room. But I'd lower the price because I understand it's not exactly cribs. This house is all about location, if anyone's aware of Minneapolis, it's .5 miles East of Lake Calhoun.

So what are you going to do every time you have a plumbing or electrical issue in the house? For instance, you want to run different electric or have a leak in a pipe? You gonna tear out that sheetrock ceiling every time you need to access your house's electric/plumbing infrastructure?

Seems like putting lipstick on a pig.

 

[koonja]

So what are you going to do every time you have a plumbing or electrical issue in the house? For instance, you want to run different electric or have a leak in a pipe? You gonna tear out that sheetrock ceiling every time you need to access your house's electric/plumbing infrastructure?

Seems like putting lipstick on a pig.

Good question and I'll ask them how that would workout. But the laundry unit which will be in one of the corners of the basement, will be finished all of the way up to and with a new door going into the laundry unit, but that laundry corner would not itself be finished - you'd walk into the door there and that would be the only unfinished part, housing the furnace, hot water heater, and expose plumbing wires.

Now, if those plumbing wires not being immediately accessible isn't enough when something happens, your question is very legit and I'll ask them about that.

 

[NorthDakota]

IDK the jargon for exactly what a finished ceiling means to you housing lords, but that's finished with sheetrock and painted. It's low - there's no denying. If this was an 8' ceiling and people wouldn't have to come down here to do laundry, I could get $750-800 for the room. But I'd lower the price because I understand it's not exactly cribs. This house is all about location, if anyone's aware of Minneapolis, it's .5 miles East of Lake Calhoun.

I mean, if you are stuck living in Minneapolis, I guess that's not such a bad area

 

[woolybug25]

I don't get why you are showing me a map? Are you saying, "I don't care, dog... cuz Minneapolis"? I don't think good location makes it okay to screw up your house.

Plus, a few girls renting rooms is different than renting someone a basement. You are opening yourself up for a bunch of headaches ranging from bad tenant (eviction, legal fees, etc) to fucking up your house with a silly troll living quarters.

Also... $18k is a shiton of money for what you're doing. $45 per sq foot may look attractive, but it's 400 square feet. Your material costs are going to be nothing.

 

[wizards8507]

I don't get why you are showing me a map? Are you saying, "I don't care, dog... cuz Minneapolis"? I don't think good location makes it okay to screw up your house.

Plus, a few girls renting rooms is different than renting someone a basement. You are opening yourself up for a bunch of headaches ranging from bad tenant (eviction, legal fees, etc) to fucking up your house with a silly troll living quarters.

+1. A 6'8" basement is suitable for Xbox playing, drinking games, and maybe a ping pong table. That ain't no domicile.

For comparison, Connecticut requires 7'0" for living space, 6'10" for recreation space, and 6'8" for "not habitable" space. My baller ass basement has 10'0" ceilings with a walkout. I'd finish it immediately if we weren't planning on moving in the next few years.

 

[koonja]

I don't get why you are showing me a map? Are you saying, "I don't care, dog... cuz Minneapolis"? I don't think good location makes it okay to screw up your house.

Plus, a few girls renting rooms is different than renting someone a basement. You are opening yourself up for a bunch of headaches ranging from bad tenant (eviction, legal fees, etc) to fucking up your house with a silly troll living quarters.

I meant to edit my post to include the location, not quote yours, so I edited to take out.

Bad tenant/eviction/legal fees is something I'm already opening myself up to, adding one more person to the house doesn't change that much. I'm careful with who lives there and so far it's been no problem. I happened to find a co-worker this last time, and found another group coming in in Sept that I work with, so I have as solid of references as I can. I'm not worried about bad tenants, every group I've shown has been ready to put money down within a week, and I'm very selective.

Fing up the living quarters is legit, but this would all be done with permits and made legal to rent to anyone. I'll go over the design of 'what if plumbing' with the contractor today. Thanks for bringing that up.

 

[koonja]

+1. A 6'8" basement is suitable for Xbox playing, drinking games, and maybe a ping pong table. That ain't not domicile.

I mean, you guys can comment on how you wouldn't live there, but I already have people that want to live there for the $600 knowing that i'd be finished, and they're looking at it as ugly as can be, unfinished right now. You don't understand the location if you think someone wouldn't live there for $600, no offense, but the proof is in the fact that individuals already want it at that price.

 

[wizards8507]

I mean, you guys can comment on how you wouldn't live there, but I already have people that want to live there for the $600 knowing that i'd be finished, and they're looking at it as ugly as can be, unfinished right now. You don't understand the location if you think someone wouldn't live there for $600, no offense, but the proof is in the fact that individuals already want it at that price.

Wooly's point is that the quality of tenant goes down with price. People willing to live in a sketchy basement at a sketchy price are going to be sketchy people who do sketchy things.

ETA: It's like something I've said before about my house. I love my $200,000 house. I just wish I had $400,000 neighbors.

 

[koonja]

Wooly's point is that the quality of tenant goes down with price. People willing to live in a sketchy basement at a sketchy price are going to be sketchy people who do sketchy things.

ETA: It's like something I've said before about my house. I love my $200,000 house. I just wish I had $400,000 neighbors.

But I hand pick my tenants from a group of 10+ interested people... If I was struggling to find tenants and the bottom of the barrel was the only that can afford it, then it'd be a legitimate concern.

 

[IrishLion]

I'd love to finish my basement, but I'm in a super-duper-old house that has unfinished ceilings over head, and they can't be taller than 6'2". If I level the floor, fix groundwater/leak issues, and put something overhead, I'll be scraping the ceiling every time I walk downstairs, and I'm 5'11". It's a bummer. My basement collects so much water during rain that I don't know if I could even do anything about it anyway.

It just kills me having so much space going unused, but there's really no answer. I envy you guys and your "low" 6'8" ceilings haha.

 

[Wild Bill]

It's a licensed company doing the bidding so I assume they'd check the pipes to make sure they're clear, but than you for the heads up- I'll make sure they do that because you're right.

Total square footage is 400.

Floors will be about $2/square foot for the material - $800. Labor costs depend on the type of floor.

You have about 30 sheets of drywall if you do the ceilings. Labor and material should be $1,000 to $1,200.

A shower base and surround, toilet, vanity and plumbing fixtures will be about $1,000, not including labor.

I doubt you spend much on electric. Sounds like the ceilings are too low to hang fixtures. Keep it simple and cheap.

Trim plus two doors (I assume) will be about $250.

The walls are cinder block, I'm honestly not sure how to describe them better than that. The contractors that have come out have not mentioned moisture control at all, but I'm assuming they have a plan for that. When they give their estimate today, I'll be sure to bring that up and ask what the current state is and what their plan is. Especially important since there will be a shower down there creating moisture. Thanks for the heads up.

Make a point to ask the contractor about water, moisture, etc. . Wooly is right, moisture and water must be controlled to prevent mold and other issues going forward.

 

[koonja]

Floors will be about $2/square foot for the material - $800. Labor costs depend on the type of floor.

You have about 30 sheets of drywall if you do the ceilings. Labor and material should be $1,000 to $1,200.

A shower base and surround, toilet, vanity and plumbing fixtures will be about $1,000, not including labor.

I doubt you spend much on electric. Sounds like the ceilings are too low to hang fixtures. Keep it simple and cheap.

Trim plus two doors (I assume) will be about $250.




Make a point to ask the contractor about water, moisture, etc. . Wooly is right, moisture and water must be controlled to prevent mold and other issues going forward.

You listed out the costs pretty well - there'd also be a sliding door from bedroom to bathroom, one other door that enters the laundry area, an egress window and one other normal, non-egress window.

 

[woolybug25]

But I hand pick my tenants from a group of 10+ interested people... If I was struggling to find tenants and the bottom of the barrel was the only that can afford it, then it'd be a legitimate concern.

Lolz. The landlord association I'm in has a comprehensive list (updated weekly) of every eviction and tenant judgement in my county. I run a criminal background check, credit check and call references for every tenant. Between my grandpa's rentals and mine (34 properties) we do an eviction roughly once a quarter. So I find it amusing when someone is like "nah, it's all good cuz I personally hand pick my tenants".

Good luck with that.

 

[wizards8507]

Lolz. The landlord association I'm in has a comprehensive list (updated weekly) of every eviction and tenant judgement in my county. I run a criminal background check, credit check and call references for every tenant. Between my grandpa's rentals and mine (34 properties) we do an eviction roughly once a quarter. So I find it amusing when someone is like "nah, it's all good cuz I personally hand pick my tenants".

Good luck with that.

See also: every marriage. People vet their spouses more than they'd ever be able to vet a tenant, yet 50% of marriages end in divorce.