Presidential Election 2024

[ab2cmiller]

Some of you are going to be in big trouble. LOL

 

[Bishop2b5]

Don: "Hey Joe, did you hear her interviews during the campaign?"

Joe, "Holy flippin' cow, man! She made me sound smart!"

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

These are all wrong statements. China was certainly flexing on Taiwan, Russia was funding separatists in the Donbas region, and Iran was launching missiles at Israel through proxies. No matter how you spin it, there were still events were still happening.

I'd have to do more homework on China - Taiwan, but you're flat out wrong on Russia and Iran.

Russia did not invade Ukraine while Trump was in office. Russia funding separatists is nowhere near troops invading a nation, bud.

Iran did not have to hide behind proxies with Biden in office. They were bold enough to claim it and own it.

Your events don't come close to the shit we've seen since 2021.

 

[TorontoGold]

I'd have to do more homework on China - Taiwan, but you're flat out wrong on Russia and Iran.

Russia did not invade Ukraine while Trump was in office. Russia funding separatists is nowhere near troops invading a nation, bud.

Iran did not have to hide behind proxies with Biden in office. They were bold enough to claim it and own it.

Your events don't come close to the shit we've seen since 2021.

Can't even admit you were wrong on China lol.

Funding people to overthrow governments is not invading the country, ok!

Sooooo by using proxies it doesn't count?

Seems like a lot of technicalities, and you said that Iran knew Biden was coming in? In Jan 2020? So I guess Iran knew how the Dem primaries were going to play out before everyone else?

You made these claims as if it was all dovish in Trump's term, and then walked it back by technicalities by offering no substantive reasons as to why Trump was the reason why but everything bad is attributable to Biden because....you said so! Bang up job.

 

[NorthDakota]

These are all wrong statements. China was certainly flexing on Taiwan, Russia was funding separatists in the Donbas region, and Iran was launching missiles at Israel through proxies. No matter how you spin it, there were still events were still happening.

It's silly to compare funding a static civil war from 2017-2021 to the outright invasions/annexations that occurred during Donald's predecessor in 2014 and successor in 2022.

Was stuff happening from 2017-2021? Sure. Was it the way it has been the last 2+ years? I think we can all agree that it was not. Certainly not at any scale.

 

[NDVirginia19]

Some of you are going to be in big trouble. LOL

I'm not a big enough degenerate to bet on politics. I only bet on which 18 year olds can throw a ball better

 

[Blazers46]

It's silly to compare funding a static civil war from 2017-2021 to the outright invasions/annexations that occurred during Donald's predecessor in 2014 and successor in 2022.

Was stuff happening from 2017-2021? Sure. Was it the way it has been the last 2+ years? I think we can all agree that it was not. Certainly not at any scale.

Technicalities…

 

[TorontoGold]

It's silly to compare funding a static civil war from 2017-2021 to the outright invasions/annexations that occurred during Donald's predecessor in 2014 and successor in 2022.

Was stuff happening from 2017-2021? Sure. Was it the way it has been the last 2+ years? I think we can all agree that it was not. Certainly not at any scale.

Well it's moronic to think that Putin just went dormant for four years and then kicked it back up again which is what meme posters and surface level people want people to believe.

I know you aren't saying that, but the idea that it was peaceful under Trump is laughable especially with COVID saving him from repercussions from the Soleimani drone strike.

 

[NorthDakota]

Well it's moronic to think that Putin just went dormant for four years and then kicked it back up again which is what meme posters and surface level people want people to believe.

I know you aren't saying that, but the idea that it was peaceful under Trump is laughable especially with COVID saving him from repercussions from the Soleimani drone strike.

I don't think he went dormant solely because of Donald. I do suspect it played a part. I like to think political players take many variables into account. Having an unpredictable man running the global hegemon is one of those variables I think.

Likewise, I don't know if he invaded *because* the US had a horrible experience withdrawing from a generation long boondoggle in Afghanistan, but I suspect he took in under consideration. Americans are not exactly known for wanting to jump into fights with major old world powers.

Though as you said, it's entirely plausible that COVID played some role as well, plus a million other things plebs like us have no knowledge of. But the main deal that we do have is he has made moves (major and minor) during 3 of the last 4 Presidents have been in office. The only one he didn't was Donald. Could be a coincidence, could not be. That's far above my pay grade.

Tl;Dr: it is what it is at this point.

 

[TorontoGold]

I don't think he went dormant solely because of Donald. I do suspect it played a part. I like to think political players take many variables into account. Having an unpredictable man running the global hegemon is one of those variables I think.

Likewise, I don't know if he invaded *because* the US had a horrible experience withdrawing from a generation long boondoggle in Afghanistan, but I suspect he took in under consideration. Americans are not exactly known for wanting to jump into fights with major old world powers.

Though as you said, it's entirely plausible that COVID played some role as well, plus a million other things plebs like us have no knowledge of. But the main deal that we do have is he has made moves (major and minor) during 3 of the last 4 Presidents have been in office. The only one he didn't was Donald. Could be a coincidence, could not be. That's far above my pay grade.

Tl;Dr: it is what it is at this point.

Yeah, it's incredibly reductive to just say "Donald is a dove and Russia didn't invade him so Biden got his lunch eaten by Putin."

It's like saying GWB was the best public health president because Swine Flu came under Obama and COVID under Trump/Biden.

 

[NorthDakota]

Yeah, it's incredibly reductive to just say "Donald is a dove and Russia didn't invade him so Biden got his lunch eaten by Putin."

It's like saying GWB was the best public health president because Swine Flu came under Obama and COVID under Trump/Biden.

I wouldn't consider that an analogy but I understand the general theme.

The question would remain, why was the world so relatively well behaved under Teflon Don? Swine Flu, Covid, etc. is something beyond an American President's control. Even foreign acts are by definition beyond his actual control. But posture/threats/what have you....that's within his control.

Obama let Crimea go and I think his reasoning was sound. I believe his reasoning was Crimea(russian people) was wayyy more important to Russian interest than American. Some areas of Ukraine may be similar to that, I have no idea. But it seems like they place a significantly higher value on that part of the world than we ever will. Anyways I digress.

We shall see what happens. It'll wind down at some point and both parties will be salty. Neocons spent a metric fuck ton of good will since 2003 and I think Donald Trump is a result of that.

 

[ulukinatme]

Using AI for good 😄

 

[Irish#1]

Funding people to overthrow governments is not invading the country, ok!

Major stretch there partner.

in·va·sion
an instance of invading a country or region with an armed force.
an unwelcome intrusion into another's domain.

 

[Irish#1]

Harris asking for more money to pay off debt after raising $1B!

Clashes, confusion and secrecy consume the Harris campaign's finances

It isn’t unusual for a campaign to carry debt. What is unusual are the explosive clashes in and around the Harris universe.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[NDVirginia19]

Yeah, it's incredibly reductive to just say "Donald is a dove and Russia didn't invade him so Biden got his lunch eaten by Putin."

It's like saying GWB was the best public health president because Swine Flu came under Obama and COVID under Trump/Biden.

But... the work GWB did for AIDS in Africa with PEPFAR was incredible lmao. I get your point though lol

 

[Bishop2b5]

Looks like the Republicans completed their sweep this election cycle. CNN and a few others called a few more seats for the Republicans yesterday to give them 218 seats in the House and control. Fox called them this morning, so looks like all the major news sources have called enough seats that the race for control of the House is over. Still 9 more races undecided, but they appear to likely split about 5-4 for the Dems, giving the Republicans control by about 4 or 5 votes. Republicans will control the Senate 53-47, and Trump will sit in the White House. Given the huge shift in voting among several demographic groups, this was a major shift in power.

 

[TorontoGold]

Major stretch there partner.

in·va·sion
an instance of invading a country or region with an armed force.
an unwelcome intrusion into another's domain.

Did you read your definition? Now apply it to situation.

 

[Irish#1]

Did you read your definition? Now apply it to situation.

It's silly to compare funding a static civil war from 2017-2021 to the outright invasions/annexations

 

[TorontoGold]

Did Russia support separatist movements in the Donbas region - yes or no
Were the separatists an armed force - yes or no
Are separatists an unwelcomed intrusion into Ukraine - yes or no

What are you even arguing at this point lol

 

[Bluto]

Man, I’m starting to understand why Trump wants to bypass senate confirmation. Lordy.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Can't even admit you were wrong on China lol.

Funding people to overthrow governments is not invading the country, ok!

Sooooo by using proxies it doesn't count?

Seems like a lot of technicalities, and you said that Iran knew Biden was coming in? In Jan 2020? So I guess Iran knew how the Dem primaries were going to play out before everyone else?

You made these claims as if it was all dovish in Trump's term, and then walked it back by technicalities by offering no substantive reasons as to why Trump was the reason why but everything bad is attributable to Biden because....you said so! Bang up job.

Admitting I would need more research on China - Taiwan is just that...admitting I need more info. And sorry if I don't trust your judgment there.

Funding people aint close to dropping bombs and invading a foreign nation. Your desperate attempt here is puzzling, even for you.

No, Iran using a third party/ proxy isn't the same as Iran's military launching at Israel. The vortex continues to spin.

I walked back nothing. You don't agree? I don't care. Go pound sand.

 

[TorontoGold]

Admitting I would need more research on China - Taiwan is just that...admitting I need more info. And sorry if I don't trust your judgment there.

Funding people aint close to dropping bombs and invading a foreign nation. Your desperate attempt here is puzzling, even for you.

No, Iran using a third party/ proxy isn't the same as Iran's military launching at Israel. The vortex continues to spin.

I walked back nothing. You don't agree? I don't care. Go pound sand.

You made claims that nothing happened, I posted that things happened, and you said it was not as close to what has happened recently. But I am the one that is spinning lol.

Taking a page out the Bagel Boss book isn't a good look.

 

[GATTACA!]

Looks like the Republicans completed their sweep this election cycle. CNN and a few others called a few more seats for the Republicans yesterday to give them 218 seats in the House and control. Fox called them this morning, so looks like all the major news sources have called enough seats that the race for control of the House is over. Still 9 more races undecided, but they appear to likely split about 5-4 for the Dems, giving the Republicans control by about 4 or 5 votes. Republicans will control the Senate 53-47, and Trump will sit in the White House. Given the huge shift in voting among several demographic groups, this was a major shift in power.

In retrospect this is probably a better situation for Dems than just retaining a small lead in the House. They would have had to play spoiler on every single thing and the GOP would paint them as obstructionists and blame them as the reason nothing improved. Now the GOP can sink or swim based on their own stupid ideas. You wanted it? You got it, YOLO.

 

[NorthDakota]

In retrospect this is probably a better situation for Dems than just retaining a small lead in the House. They would have had to play spoiler on every single thing and the GOP would paint them as obstructionists and blame them as the reason nothing improved. Now the GOP can sink or swim based on their own stupid ideas. You wanted it? You got it, YOLO.

It's not gonna be YOLO. Senate is this whole thing that exists (fortunately) to obstruct silliness and require consensus.

 

[NorthDakota]

Did Russia support separatist movements in the Donbas region - yes or no
Were the separatists an armed force - yes or no
Are separatists an unwelcomed intrusion into Ukraine - yes or no

What are you even arguing at this point lol

Separatists can't be an intrusion really, that suggests they are unwelcome. But if they are even modestly welcome in the area they aren't intruding.

If you read the stuff Ukrainian media was saying about the Donbas region over the past decade, it seems very much so that the government has the intruder rather than the folks fighting against the government.

 

[NDVirginia19]

 

[Irish#1]

Pot meet Kettle.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Ok. To start, I’m not a registered democrat. So that’s that.

Now, I feel compelled to demonstrate for everyone just how much of a simpleton you are as it relates to this issue.

One has to wonder why you’re so willing to die on this hill of simple minded bullshit?

My primary sources are info from when I obtained a minor in history back in the early 90’s as well as a short but very well researched essay by historian Kevin M Kruse.

After the Civil War and post Lincoln’s assassination during reconstruction the parties began to slow converge on the issue of race.

Case in point, the Republicans let the reforms that began under reconstruction fall by the wayside during the Johnson administration which included pardoning many of the souths leaders. In relatively short order Johnson allowed the rise of Jim Crow and the Klan.

Every Republican on the Supreme Court voted in favor of Plessy vs Ferguson in 1896.

When the Klan made its big comeback in the 20’s (the second Klan which is an important distinction) it did in fact have members of both parties. In the south, Democrats and in the midwest, Republicans and was a nation wide phenomenon.

During the new deal and 1930’s a majority of African Americans began to move towards democrats with Rosevelt receiving 71 percent of African American votes in 1936. In 1936 44 percent of African Americans had registered as democrats while 37 registered as republican.

In 36 the Democrats also changed their party nominating rules to remove the 2/3rds majority rule in terms of nominating the Pres and VP. That effectively stripped the southern states of a long held veto power regarding who was nominated.

In 38 Rosevelt backed 3 more liberal southerners in the primaries against three of the more conservative (racist) senators. The more conservative members held on to win but it was a shot across the bow.

In response to all this Democratic Senator Carter Glass from Virginia asked if southern democrats “will have the spirit and courage enough to face the new Reconstruction era the northern so-called Democrats are menacing with us”.

So for about 10 years during the new deal era the democrats were a weird coalition that had both southern racists and the majority of African Americans.

As per my previous post 48 was kind of a watershed year with the republicans getting creamed yet again nationally while they continued to lose ground with African Americans and that’s when they began to look at ways to align and pull in the Dixiecrats (who identified as their own party and ran Thurmond as an opposition candidate to Truman) and the realignment began in earnest.

In 48 Republican Senator John Bricker, who was also the GOP VP pick in 44 urged Republican and Dixiecrat leaders to coordinate “realignment”.

The first signs of this strategy paying off were in 52 when Eisenhower (who was endorsed by Thurmond) won Virginia, Tennessee, Florida, Oklahoma and Texas.

The Brown ruling threw a monkey wrench in all this but when Nixon lost in 60 the GOP again began to focus on courting the South.

In 61 the GOP created and began funding a program called “Operation Dixie”.

In 61 former Democrat turned Republican John Tower won LBJ’s vacated seat, and immediately threw in with southern democrats and voted against the civil rights act in 64 and 65.

In 62 the GOP ran segregationists William Workman in the South Carolina Senate race and segregationist/ former democrat James D Martin for Senate in Alabama.

In 63 Robert Novak attended meetings of the RNC and noted that southern chairmen casually used racial slurs and one attendee proclaimed “This isn’t South Africa. The white man outnumbers the negro 9 to 1.”

64 was another pivotal year in that it demonstrated how complete the realignment had become.

LBJ tapped pro civil rights Humphrey as his VP while the GOP ticket consisted of Goldwater (who defended segregation and voted against the Civil Rights Act) and William Miller (sadly a Notre Dame graduate) both of whom were proponents of the new GOP southern strategy of aligning with southern segregationists under the guise of States Rights.

It’s funny George Wallace was mentioned because he did in fact offer to switch parties if Goldwater made him his running mate.

If one breaks down the votes against the Civil Rights Act 40 some odd percent of the Dems voted No (all southerners) while 20 plus percent of the GOP Senators voted No including the before mentioned Goldwater.

At the 64 National Convention Nelson Rockefeller offered an amendment to denounce the John Birch Society and the KKK. It was shouted down and for the first time in 50 years there were no African American delegates in the southern delegation, some African American Republicans who attended were assaulted at the event.

Jackie Robinson who was in attendance said “I now know how it felt to be a Jew in Hitlers Germany”.

In the early 60’s Alabama segregationist Bill Dickson left the democrats and won a seat as a Republican, Mississippi Republican Prentis Walker (a former democrat) gave his first public address after winning a seat in the house in front of KKK affiliated Americans for the Preservation of the White Race and all four of the other Republicans from Alabama were against civil rights.

Now, why did segregationist senators like Thurmond (who did eventually become a Republican) remain in the Democratic Party? The answer is pretty simple. They were long standing ranking members and did not want to give up their chairmanships and the power that came with it. So it is true that many retired as “democrats”.

First, in the case of Plessy vs. Ferguson, I believe you're mistaken. EVERY justice - Republican and Democrat - voted for it with the exception of Justice Harlan, a Republican, who wrote the dissenting opinion.

As for all the rest, you've spent a lot of time finding a few examples of "some Republicans did some racist stuff too" that does absolutely nothing to refute my assertions that slavery was almost entirely supported by the Democrats, not the Republicans; that it was the Democrats who were almost entirely responsible for Jim Crow; that the Ku Klux Klan was founded by and largely (almost entirely) made up of Democrats; and that the Civil Rights Act of the 60's was filibustered and fought against overwhelmingly by Democrats, not Republicans. A couple of Dixiecrats switching to R later in life doesn't take away from the fact that they were all Dems for most of their careers and especially when they were preaching segregation and Jim Crow, and most STAYED Dems.

A few "but Republicans did a little of it too" is a poor and ineffective attempt to hide the Democrats' shameful history of racism, slavery, and bigotry. At least just be honest enough to own it, call it a bad mistake, and move on from it instead of saying, "but others did a few things too."

 

[Bluto]

lol First, in the case of Plessy vs. Ferguson, I believe you're mistaken. EVERY justice - Republican and Democrat - voted for it with the exception of Justice Harlan, a Republican, who wrote the dissenting opinion.

As for all the rest, you've spent a lot of time finding a few examples of "some Republicans did some racist stuff too" that does absolutely nothing to refute my assertions that slavery was almost entirely supported by the Democrats, not the Republicans; that it was the Democrats who were almost entirely responsible for Jim Crow; that the Ku Klux Klan was founded by and largely (almost entirely) made up of Democrats; and that the Civil Rights Act of the 60's was filibustered and fought against overwhelmingly by Democrats, not Republicans. A couple of Dixiecrats switching to R later in life doesn't take away from the fact that they were all Dems for most of their careers and especially when they were preaching segregation and Jim Crow, and most STAYED Dems.

A few "but Republicans did a little of it too" is a poor and ineffective attempt to hide the Democrats' shameful history of racism, slavery, and bigotry. At least just be honest enough to own it, call it a bad mistake, and move on from it instead of saying, "but others did a few things too."

Mea culpa on the lone dissenter. I went back and reread Kruse’s piece and that’s what he stated as well.

Now, pardoning racist traitors, letting said racist traitors implement Jim Crow, voting to uphold Jim Crow and having a presidential ticket that throws in with southern segregationists is doing “just a little bit too”? That’s dumb as shit. That’s doing a lot.

Were a lot of democrats racists? Sure. Here’s the thing though, the whole fucking country was racist as hell including a significant portion of the GOP. Racism was fucking rampant. It was however, Democratic admins beginning with FDR that began to actively dismantle that while the GOP began to actively embrace it.

The realignment that took place beginning in the 40’s where racist southerners began to migrate to the GOP is pretty cut and dry and GOP operatives that helped shape that strategy have openly acknowledged it.

“You start out in 1954 by saying, “Nigger, nigger, nigger.” By 1968 you can’t say “nigger”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “Nigger, nigger.” - Lee Atwater

As to the Klan. There were three distinct iterations of said group. The first was post reconstruction and yes mostly southern democrats. The second was a national phenomena post “birth of a nation” and per my previous post included a lot of northern and mid west republicans. The third was the modern Klan and included southern Dixiecrats who post 64 aligned with the GOP. David Duke would be the poster child for this.

The GOP is just as guilty of being a bunch of racist assholes as anyone and it is shameful as fuck.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

You made claims that nothing happened, I posted that things happened, and you said it was not as close to what has happened recently. But I am the one that is spinning lol.

Taking a page out the Bagel Boss book isn't a good look.

You can spin this ball of yarn for days, but fact is you continue to ignore my points above and your comparison of "things that happened" is trash.