Post-Game Thoughts: 2017 Blue-Gold Game

[arrowryan]

It is very obvious of what kind of message Kelly is hammering into the players' heads and it is great to see. I try not to get excited about what happens in spring ball but they're making it hard not to get excited

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[Downinthebend]

I'm going to shamelessly promote my post-game intro observations of Chip Long's offense here.

It includes breaking down an RPO play where ND threw off of when they had a triple team at the line of scrimmage, and the breakdown is in 3-d.

https://www.18stripes.com/the-chip-long-nd-offense-part-1-intro/

 

[IrishLion]

Who started at safety alongside Elliot? Coleman?

 

[koonja]

Who started at safety alongside Elliot? Coleman?

Wasn't Isaih Robertson starting?

 

[IrishLion]

Wasn't Isaih Robertson starting?

No it was Coleman. I remember now that he made a nice play early.

Robertson played solid for the 2's, though.

 

[Domina Nostra]

No it was Coleman. I remember now that he made a nice play early.

Robertson played solid for the 2's, though.

Coleman (FS) and Elliot (SS) started the Spring Game, and seem to be the presumed starters right now. But I think Robertson is more likely to jump Elliot than Coleman at this point. The staff sounds comfortable with Coleman.

All three sounds like very good athletes though!

 

[koonja]

No it was Coleman. I remember now that he made a nice play early.

Robertson played solid for the 2's, though.

Coleman (FS) and Elliot (SS) started the Spring Game, and seem to be the presumed starters right now. But I think Robertson is more likely to jump Elliot than Coleman at this point. The staff sounds comfortable with Coleman.

All three sounds like very good athletes though!

Gotcha. I thought Robertson was the 2nd most impressive DB Saturday, next to Watkins. 2 very pleasant surprises if they become big time players this year.

 

[IrishLion]

Gotcha. I thought Robertson was the 2nd most impressive DB Saturday, next to Watkins. 2 very pleasant surprises if they become big time players this year.

See I wasn't as impressed with Watkins as everyone seems to be.

Our first-team WR's put up some yards, and there were a few times where Watkins got caught in no-man's land. (To be fair to Watkins, trying to cover Boykin seems like it will be zero fun sir. Dude's come a long way in a short time.)

I think our corners are plenty athletic, and *can* be very good in Elko's scheme, especially since they aren't going to be asked to cover all day... Elko's front 7 will force early throws via stunts and blitz.

But until we see that evolve against other teams, I think our corners looked like the liabilities of the defense in the spring game.

 

[FDNYIrish1]

I'm going to shamelessly promote my post-game intro observations of Chip Long's offense here.

It includes breaking down an RPO play where ND threw off of when they had a triple team at the line of scrimmage, and the breakdown is in 3-d.

https://www.18stripes.com/the-chip-long-nd-offense-part-1-intro/

Awesome stuff, thanks for sharing. I really enjoy reading your posts, lots of good info. Thank you.

 

[woolybug25]

See I wasn't as impressed with Watkins as everyone seems to be.

Our first-team WR's put up some yards, and there were a few times where Watkins got caught in no-man's land. (To be fair to Watkins, trying to cover Boykin seems like it will be zero fun sir. Dude's come a long way in a short time.)

I think our corners are plenty athletic, and *can* be very good in Elko's scheme, especially since they aren't going to be asked to cover all day... Elko's front 7 will force early throws via stunts and blitz.

But until we see that evolve against other teams, I think our corners looked like the liabilities of the defense in the spring game.

Not many people have been talking about Boykin, but man, he looks really good. I pity any team we line up against with a small secondary.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Not many people have been talking about Boykin, but man, he looks really good. I pity any team we line up against with a small secondary.

All of the sites have been saying this recently, I think it's just us that's been quiet. I have no idea what happened with him. I was listening to an II podcast on a practice recap and they mentioned that Miles looked really good. Ever since, he's been consistently named as a standout.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I'm going to shamelessly promote my post-game intro observations of Chip Long's offense here.

It includes breaking down an RPO play where ND threw off of when they had a triple team at the line of scrimmage, and the breakdown is in 3-d.

https://www.18stripes.com/the-chip-long-nd-offense-part-1-intro/

This is the most significant post about the offense in this thread. And with the linked article may be the best this spring.

I cannot impress anyone with how much less predictable this offense is from linemen not giving away the play with the first two steps of their footwork, to the different personnel groups, etc. This is going to be worth three to four wins, this year over last year.

(In other words, three or four games we lost to teams with mediocre defenses and lower levels of talent were because our offense was so predictable. Defenses could play faster than our offense did. And that really affected DK's performance, too!)

 

[Old Man Mike]

Let's hope that Wimbush gets more intuitive at reading that play where he has to give the ball or not depending what the unblocked DE does. The first two times we ran that (I was watching Kraemer blocking down with Bars so I noticed that the DE was standing alone), Wimbush got it wrong both times. I never thought that Kizer was real good at that either. I'm waiting for one of our QBs to be a natural on reading that play, since we seem to insist on running it.

 

[Downinthebend]

Let's hope that Wimbush gets more intuitive at reading that play where he has to give the ball or not depending what the unblocked DE does. The first two times we ran that (I was watching Kraemer blocking down with Bars so I noticed that the DE was standing alone), Wimbush got it wrong both times. I never thought that Kizer was real good at that either. I'm waiting for one of our QBs to be a natural on reading that play, since we seem to insist on running it.

Can you show/tell me which plays in particular from this youtube? https://youtu.be/Xp4eEj9mBGk

 

[ThePiombino]

Let's hope that Wimbush gets more intuitive at reading that play where he has to give the ball or not depending what the unblocked DE does. The first two times we ran that (I was watching Kraemer blocking down with Bars so I noticed that the DE was standing alone), Wimbush got it wrong both times. I never thought that Kizer was real good at that either. I'm waiting for one of our QBs to be a natural on reading that play, since we seem to insist on running it.

I thought Kizer actually did a decent job of running that play. Probably the best QB during Kelly's time.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Sorry about my inability to revisit the game film --- I was just rewatching it to assess Kraemer, as I'm interested in OLine development more than other things. The plays were first half plays, probably first quarter plays. The second one had Wimbush taken for a big loss by DHayes, I believe. Hayes was unblocked, Wimbush stared in his direction but didn't give it to the back running left, and ran right with Hayes easily making the sack on an awkward-looking play.

The other play was about a half-dozen plays earlier, and my memory of it isn't as clear. But Wimbush in this case gave the ball to the runner who was going left, and the unblocked defender moved right down behind the line for a zero-gain tackle.

 

[NDdomer2]

Sorry about my inability to revisit the game film --- I was just rewatching it to assess Kraemer, as I'm interested in OLine development more than other things. The plays were first half plays, probably first quarter plays. The second one had Wimbush taken for a big loss by DHayes, I believe. Hayes was unblocked, Wimbush stared in his direction but didn't give it to the back running left, and ran right with Hayes easily making the sack on an awkward-looking play.

The other play was about a half-dozen plays earlier, and my memory of it isn't as clear. But Wimbush in this case gave the ball to the runner who was going left, and the unblocked defender moved right down behind the line for a zero-gain tackle.

The one was one of the first big plays of the spring game. Wimbush still completed the pass and BK insisted the ball be brought back for a sack.

 

[dublinirish]

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embeddable full spring game video for anybody hasnt seen it yet

 

[IrishLion]

Sorry about my inability to revisit the game film --- I was just rewatching it to assess Kraemer, as I'm interested in OLine development more than other things. The plays were first half plays, probably first quarter plays. The second one had Wimbush taken for a big loss by DHayes, I believe. Hayes was unblocked, Wimbush stared in his direction but didn't give it to the back running left, and ran right with Hayes easily making the sack on an awkward-looking play.

The other play was about a half-dozen plays earlier, and my memory of it isn't as clear. But Wimbush in this case gave the ball to the runner who was going left, and the unblocked defender moved right down behind the line for a zero-gain tackle.

The one was one of the first big plays of the spring game. Wimbush still completed the pass and BK insisted the ball be brought back for a sack.

I thought he was talking about the play where Wimbush made the wrong read and took off to run. In a live-game, I think he actually gets the stiff-arm on Hayes and gets around the end.

The play you're talking about wasn't a read, just a blown assignment and/or Wimbush not recognizing that he had the DE 1-on-1 on a called pass.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Lion: correct.

 

[NDdomer2]

I thought he was talking about the play where Wimbush made the wrong read and took off to run. In a live-game, I think he actually gets the stiff-arm on Hayes and gets around the end.

The play you're talking about wasn't a read, just a blown assignment and/or Wimbush not recognizing that he had the DE 1-on-1 on a called pass.

I thought that was an RPO, either hand it off or throw, but is based on LB looks not the dline maybe. Although, both were going to be negative with the way Hayes came off the edge, but I'd rather have the RB get smoked than Wimbush.

 

[Downinthebend]

I thought that was an RPO, either hand it off or throw, but is based on LB looks not the dline maybe. Although, both were going to be negative with the way Hayes came off the edge, but I'd rather have the RB get smoked than Wimbush.

This is the play I think you're talking about https://youtu.be/DJxWkmeQNtk?t=1s . It highlights one of my least favorite things about this offense, on that play there were two people being read, and Wimbush resnap read the second one (the backer jumping run, the WR having nice leverage) as suitable and threw it... problem was is that the first read was the DE. This play when run this way can lead to gruesome hits (Kentucky knows all too well of it), it however wasn't a "wrong" read, just an ill advised one.

What Wimbush really should have done, if he presnap read it, was just not mesh and throw the slant.

 

[OCIrish]

Because some people are just assholes?

 

[NDdomer2]

This is the play I think you're talking about https://youtu.be/DJxWkmeQNtk?t=1s . It highlights one of my least favorite things about this offense, on that play there were two people being read, and Wimbush resnap read the second one (the backer jumping run, the WR having nice leverage) as suitable and threw it... problem was is that the first read was the DE. This play when run this way can lead to gruesome hits (Kentucky knows all too well of it), it however wasn't a "wrong" read, just an ill advised one.

What Wimbush really should have done, if he presnap read it, was just not mesh and throw the slant.

when you say not mesh, you mean have back pick up the DE as a blocker, right?

Yes, this play screams fumble sack, or QB out of game to me if it goes like that live.

 

[Downinthebend]

when you say not mesh, you mean have back pick up the DE as a blocker, right?

Yes, this play screams fumble sack, or QB out of game to me if it goes like that live.

No, just not carry out the handoff mesh, throw it right as it breaks.

 

[NDdomer2]

No, just not carry out the handoff mesh, throw it right as it breaks.

man, still gonna get drilled. I assume a lot of the freedom Kizer had at the line of scrimmage to completely change play calls is gone with Long's offense? It's going to be the RPO called and make the right read?

 

[BeauBenken]

man, still gonna get drilled. I assume a lot of the freedom Kizer had at the line of scrimmage to completely change play calls is gone with Long's offense? It's going to be the RPO called and make the right read?

I thinnk what Downinthebend is suggesting is that Wimbush is reading Hayes to either pull or give and then reading the backer/overhang safety which is Elliot (I think, don't have my glasses on) to determine keep or throw.

But this play looks hella screwed from the get go if you ask me. It's hard to even see how that could be the case. Not to mention, Wimbush didn't even try to pull so maybe I'm misreading what Downinthebend is suggesting.

It honestly looks like the blocking was blown to me. Seems like Hayes shouldn't have been left and should have been picked up by the tackle. Then the read is on Elliot alone. If he comes down, pass in the open zone behind him, if he drops, make the hand off.

 

[IrishLion]

Perhaps that goes back to the offensive line not adjusting to the defensive looks on purpose. It's been said several times that the OL didn't adjust to account for defensive blitz/stunts, and instead stayed vanilla for a reason (which is strange, because usually it's the opposite, and it's the defense that is forced to be vanilla).

Which leads me to my question: why did the OL not adjust to anything, and why was it on purpose? Is that convenient cover for some issues that they had, particularly with the young RT? Or was it real, and used to hide what they will ACTUALLY do on a Saturday in the Fall?

 

[dublinirish]

Perhaps that goes back to the offensive line not adjusting to the defensive looks on purpose. It's been said several times that the OL didn't adjust to account for defensive blitz/stunts, and instead stayed vanilla for a reason (which is strange, because usually it's the opposite, and it's the defense that is forced to be vanilla).

Which leads me to my question: why did the OL not adjust to anything, and why was it on purpose? Is that convenient cover for some issues that they had, particularly with the young RT? Or was it real, and used to hide what they will ACTUALLY do on a Saturday in the Fall?

Both II and ISD podcasts had the theory that BK and Chip wanted to see Wimbush and Book deal with the stress of having free pass rushers coming at them and having to make good reads/roll outs under duress..

 

[BeauBenken]

Both II and ISD podcasts had the theory that BK and Chip wanted to see Wimbush and Book deal with the stress of having free pass rushers coming at them and having to make good reads/roll outs under duress..

I could see this, but I feel like that's still hard to gauge when the whistle gets blown when there is a free defender anywhere in the QB's vicinity.

Not to mention, I'm not sure I'd want to have my OL practice not doing the right thing.

But I'm not the coach.