Post Game Assumptions(Air Force)...

IrishLion

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If I remember right, some of you said that the lack of competition led to Rees' stellar night. That's fair, but I was more impressed with his ball placement than his actual stats. All 5 of his touchdowns (I know 2 or 3 of them were wide open) were passes that were placed where only the receiver could catch it. None of his TD throws were bad throws and the receiver just out muscled or out jumped the secondary. Those would've been touchdowns against most teams in the country with that ball placement.

I'm nitpicking, and I promise I'm not trying to stir the pot lol, but the first TD to Robinson was way underthrown and might have been an INT if not for Robinson making a nice adjustment and being a beast in general.

However, the other four TDs were all beautiful.

Teams are still stacking the box and forcing Tommy to beat them, and he's doing well. It will be interesting to see how the offense adjusts (if Tommy can check INTO an effective run game) when BYU and Stanford drop 8 into coverage rather than stacking the box.
 

kmoose

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Teams are still stacking the box and forcing Tommy to beat them, and he's doing well. It will be interesting to see how the offense adjusts (if Tommy can check INTO an effective run game) when BYU and Stanford drop 8 into coverage rather than stacking the box.

Ideally, they would adjust by running the ball down the Defense's throat. Even if our backs are not talented enough to make a couple of guys miss and take it to the house, they should still be able to grind out 6-7-8 yards a pop. That will force them to keep their linebackers closer to the LOS, and maybe even to bring their safeties up.
 

IrishLion

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Ideally, they would adjust by running the ball down the Defense's throat. Even if our backs are not talented enough to make a couple of guys miss and take it to the house, they should still be able to grind out 6-7-8 yards a pop. That will force them to keep their linebackers closer to the LOS, and maybe even to bring their safeties up.

I agree, and Tommy is at a point where he can adjust the call at the line how he sees fit. I think the pistol will help greatly against good defenses like BYU and Stanford. Tommy can still operate with space to see the defense and analyze man coverage if they want to keep defenders in the box, but he can check to downhill run plays if they are playing soft and dropping everyone into coverage.
 

BurningRiver

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Thought he was gonna "break all of ND's records" this year (along with Tommy...)


I'd say DD has all the talent...but we don't have the guys around (no TE production to speak of) him and Tommy is only completing about 50% of his passes.

I don't buy this. The tight ends played well Saturday, and Tommy went 17/22 for 284 and Davaris still wasn't much of a factor.
 

irishff1014

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I think the problem we all have with GAIII is after watching the game today is he got tackled by one person a lot in this game. Which shouldn't happen.
 
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pkt77242

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I think the problem with i have will GAIII after watching the game today is he got tackled by one person a lot in this game. Which shouldn't happen.

I get what you are saying, but I hope you are a couple of drinks into the night. :alcohol:
 

phgreek

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I'm nitpicking, and I promise I'm not trying to stir the pot lol, but the first TD to Robinson was way underthrown and might have been an INT if not for Robinson making a nice adjustment and being a beast in general.

However, the other four TDs were all beautiful.

Teams are still stacking the box and forcing Tommy to beat them, and he's doing well. It will be interesting to see how the offense adjusts (if Tommy can check INTO an effective run game) when BYU and Stanford drop 8 into coverage rather than stacking the box.

BYU...they have a ton of athletic guys on the second level of their 3-5. I would love to see a bruising run game...but it will have to be a decisive back like Cam to get 4-6 at a time as those backers close quick. Hoping the O line picks that game to really drop the hammer in the run game.

I think the physicality and speed of our receivers outside give us the ability to use bubble screens and short pass game as a run game if we can't get it going between the tackles. We will win our share over the top.

No doubt in my mind they will be bringing Van Noy with malicious intent...while Stanford is certainly more dangerous overall...BYU worries me more because of the scheme, and their ability to get clean shots on QBs...since Cierre isn't doing anything these days...can he come stand next to Tommy in the backfield for Blitz pickup?
 

NDBoiler

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Re-watched the game last night and here are my thoughts:

Reesus had his best game of the year by far obviously. I still don't like the 25 yard jumpball on 3rd and 9. Seems like that has been going on all year and isn't a very high percentage play in that situation.

Loved seeing the young receivers step up and make an impact.

GA3 is inconsistent in how he finishes runs. Some plays he gets low and powers into the defender, other times he is way too upright and gets easily pushed back at the point of contact. Folston has great vision and looks to have a very bright future.

I think overall we have to take this game with a grain of salt. It was a good solid win, but the quality of the opponent was instrumental in making good players look even better. ND will not have this large of an athleticism advantage over the vast majority of FBS teams. Disappointed that the opening drive grounded to a halt again followed by a blocked FG. Happy with an easy victory nonetheless. Should be a similar game next week.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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I see a lot of posts stating Jaylon out of position or confused in the first quarter with the option. Who is his responsibility on that play? It appeared to me that he was the only defender out there and was tasked with both the QB and the RB. Didn't appear there was any help. Russell then made some great plays from CB to shut down the option pitch.

An intelligent comment.

The freshmen are warriors of course. But this eligibility conversation you had, featured an Alabama (also) fan setting many of you straight about a simple ethical issue! (You know I love you Tommy from the other T-town!)

HERE IS THE RUB: I have heard all kind of criticism about how players have played and what went wrong against the AFA. Do you all realize that we did not have the right scheme for blocking in on offense or the right support for the OLB in on defense at the start of the game? BK admitted it in the press conference. We needed a gap blocking scheme on offense against AFA with their submerging nose guard (as we have against a number of teams this year), instead we just roll on with our zone blocking scheme, inside to outside. Kelly even said in his press conference, I HEARD HIM, that we were putting NMartin on an island. Thinks one or more of the middle three this year. We have put them on an island. And we are just getting to that realization when? Now.

I would like someone who really knows to go through the game by game schemes and show how many times we ill-advisedly used a zone scheme against teams that crowded the inside against us.

This brings up the second point. There is a lot of hoo-hah about teams loading the box against us. Granted, there is a point of contention, does the box end 6-7 yards back or does it go deeper? But, I am thinking the box isn't getting loaded, even when people are saying it is. Does anybody even count from stills? Or is everybody just repeating it because some broadcaster from CBS Sports says so? They called TRees a quick quarterback that beats you with his feet in the broadcast Saturday!

On defense, BK admitted that Jaylon Smith had contain, and with that had to take the quarterback and the pitch man at the outset of the game because of "some check downs that were automatic with our regular game plan." What the fvck? Why did no one at the press conference projectile vomit? (Like the people at the blueberry pie eating contest in Stand By Me???? I really honestly cannot figure all of this out.

Is Kelly really saying that knowing we have an opponent that is different than 98 percent of the teams on the college landscape, and that difference is the only way that the team can beat you, and that they can kill you with it, we refuse to make the proper adjustments until our own unworkable generic system almost loses the game early for us?

Once we started rotating the corners to the option, so they took the pitch man we stopped the option cold. But why did we wait? And could this stunning apathy at installing the right defense or offensive blocking scheme have resulted in our three noticeable injuries? I want to know.

The way I look at the '13 season is we have played two teams that we weren't good enough to spot 14 or 21 points. Name the team that we haven't had to make major adjustments against.
 

ulukinatme

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I think the problem we all have with GAIII is after watching the game today is he got tackled by one person a lot in this game. Which shouldn't happen.

Yes, one guy that he probably had 20 lbs on, more athleticism, and more speed. If he can't beat a one on one against service academy defenders, time to move down the depth chart.
 

military_irish

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I was finally able to watch some of the replay while at work yesterday and something I noticed about GA III is that he runs to the hole he is suppose to go to. The problem is most of the time there is a defender there so rather than cutting to a different hole or finding the open daylight he will just run into the pile of blockers and defenders and get tackled.

But later in the game when Folston was in there he was cutting 2 or 3 times in one run to get those extra yards.

If GA III had better hands he would be deadly in the open field but it seems he just can't make his own lanes.

I hope he can continue to develop but pretty soon he will be passed by Folston. Which is unfortunate in my eyes because I really like Atkinson but it's part of the game. If you don't perform you will be passed.
 

chubler

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IMO there's got to be a coaching problem with the run game. Our guys win individual battles regularly, but for some reason we can't seem to run with any consistency as a team. That suggests coaching issues to me. And I don't think the RB's are the issue- IMO they're largely interchangeable. A run play will succeed every time if the Oline does work, a difference in who you hand the ball to can turn 5 yards into 10 and 7 into 70, but you can get it done with 5 and 7 over and over again.

ND under Kelly seems to lack that push at the line that characterizes a true running football team. I grew up seeing guys getting blown off the ball by the great running teams Wisconsin fielded under Barry Alvarez, and we are nowhere near that level of running, but the boys up front seem to be similar in talent to those late 90's, early 2000's Badgers. What gives??

Given that Kelly's been a spread passing guru his whole life, maybe the that offense is the problem. I'm starting to wonder if Brady Hoke isnt (*shudder*) correct when he says that pro-style (which I take to mean man-blocking) schemes are just different in terms of physicality. When you can your big boys a specific man to beat, there's no thinking, just mauling.

I'm sure we'll see some incredible passing offenses in the next year or two, once we've got a more gifted QB to throw to our rather impressive WR corps. But the power running game I think we all crave might never come to fruition under Kelly.
 

ulukinatme

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IMO there's got to be a coaching problem with the run game. Our guys win individual battles regularly, but for some reason we can't seem to run with any consistency as a team. That suggests coaching issues to me. And I don't think the RB's are the issue- IMO they're largely interchangeable. A run play will succeed every time if the Oline does work, a difference in who you hand the ball to can turn 5 yards into 10 and 7 into 70, but you can get it done with 5 and 7 over and over again.

I think the last two years we've had decent success running the ball, but not so much this year. I don't think it's the fault of the line. While we may not get the kind of push that a team like Wisconsin has gotten, we're still opening holes for our running backs this year. I don't agree that our running backs are largely interchangeable. If anything, they're each so different in their strengths and weaknesses, I think they're the big reason we've struggled running the ball this year. We've been starting two backs primarily that do NOT run well between the tackles: GAIII and Carlisle. Both are fast players and are probably more athletic than Cam and Folston (Well, maybe not Folston), but you need a RB that can run between the tackles if you hope to have success running the ball. If your back can't run between the tackles it makes it much easier for a defense to set the edge and take away the run. It also helps to have a back that can catch the ball out of the backfield, which GAIII and Carlisle have both struggled with at times in their careers. Cam never gets thrown to, so either his hands are even worse or we just keep him in as a blocker most times.

I'm not arguing that there could be a coaching issue that's hampered our running game, and maybe the OL is partly to blame. I still think that we've been trying to use GAIII and Carlisle the wrong way up till now. They're not capable of running between the tackles, they both get stuffed. They're best utilized on the perimeter and getting them into space. At this point in the season we should be starting Cam and Folston at RB because they've shown to be the most complete RBs we have that can find the holes and make the moves needed. They'll also fight for the extra yards and make the most of their opportunities, something GAIII and Carlisle have not done.
 

Booslum31

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I think the last two years we've had decent success running the ball, but not so much this year. I don't think it's the fault of the line. While we may not get the kind of push that a team like Wisconsin has gotten, we're still opening holes for our running backs this year. I don't agree that our running backs are largely interchangeable. If anything, they're each so different in their strengths and weaknesses, I think they're the big reason we've struggled running the ball this year. We've been starting two backs primarily that do NOT run well between the tackles: GAIII and Carlisle. Both are fast players and are probably more athletic than Cam and Folston (Well, maybe not Folston), but you need a RB that can run between the tackles if you hope to have success running the ball. If your back can't run between the tackles it makes it much easier for a defense to set the edge and take away the run. It also helps to have a back that can catch the ball out of the backfield, which GAIII and Carlisle have both struggled with at times in their careers. Cam never gets thrown to, so either his hands are even worse or we just keep him in as a blocker most times.

I'm not arguing that there could be a coaching issue that's hampered our running game, and maybe the OL is partly to blame. I still think that we've been trying to use GAIII and Carlisle the wrong way up till now. They're not capable of running between the tackles, they both get stuffed. They're best utilized on the perimeter and getting them into space. At this point in the season we should be starting Cam and Folston at RB because they've shown to be the most complete RBs we have that can find the holes and make the moves needed. They'll also fight for the extra yards and make the most of their opportunities, something GAIII and Carlisle have not done.

Pretty much agree with you on the RB front, however I think Folson is a more complete back than Cam. I just don't think any defenses are saying to themselves "uh-oh Cam's in the game" like they might with Folston. I think that our o-line is under-performing on run blocking...when an RB get's stuffed it's usually because the defensive line won the battle up front and got penetration. I've watched Bama's line a lot this year (not on purpose) and they blow people off the ball and it wouldn't matter who was running behind them.
They either have better talent or they are better coached...IMO

We have missed way too many 3rd and 1's or 3rd and 2's to believe that we have good running game...IMO. Pass blocking is a different story...I understand it's difficult to be good at both.
 

kmoose

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I'm sure we'll see some incredible passing offenses in the next year or two, once we've got a more gifted QB to throw to our rather impressive WR corps. But the power running game I think we all crave might never come to fruition under Kelly.

Tommy Rees is on pace....................

never mind. If you think that Tommy Rees is holding our passing offense back, then you won't ever understand, anyway.
 

irishpat183

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Tommy Rees is on pace....................

never mind. If you think that Tommy Rees is holding our passing offense back, then you won't ever understand, anyway.

he's a top 25 qb....


and anyone that thinks he's anyting but a space filler becuase we've lacked a better QB won't ever understand, either.


I don't think he's "holding us back"...but he's also not making us better. He's a Matt Schaub. Can play well, at times, but will never win jack and makes some really headscratching mistakes
 

IrishLax

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I think the last two years we've had decent success running the ball, but not so much this year. I don't think it's the fault of the line. While we may not get the kind of push that a team like Wisconsin has gotten, we're still opening holes for our running backs this year. I don't agree that our running backs are largely interchangeable. If anything, they're each so different in their strengths and weaknesses, I think they're the big reason we've struggled running the ball this year. We've been starting two backs primarily that do NOT run well between the tackles: GAIII and Carlisle. Both are fast players and are probably more athletic than Cam and Folston (Well, maybe not Folston), but you need a RB that can run between the tackles if you hope to have success running the ball. If your back can't run between the tackles it makes it much easier for a defense to set the edge and take away the run. It also helps to have a back that can catch the ball out of the backfield, which GAIII and Carlisle have both struggled with at times in their careers. Cam never gets thrown to, so either his hands are even worse or we just keep him in as a blocker most times.

I'm not arguing that there could be a coaching issue that's hampered our running game, and maybe the OL is partly to blame. I still think that we've been trying to use GAIII and Carlisle the wrong way up till now. They're not capable of running between the tackles, they both get stuffed. They're best utilized on the perimeter and getting them into space. At this point in the season we should be starting Cam and Folston at RB because they've shown to be the most complete RBs we have that can find the holes and make the moves needed. They'll also fight for the extra yards and make the most of their opportunities, something GAIII and Carlisle have not done.

The thing is, the overall problem with our RBs is that they each have strengths to go with other weaknesses. To use a baseball cliché, they aren't "5 tool players". I agree with you that Cam and Folston are by far the most complete of the bunch. I'd say Atkinson is the least complete in the sense that he has the most limitations.

If we could somehow Frankenstein a singular running back that has McDaniel's balance/toughness, Atkinson's speed, Carlisle's ball skills, and Folston's quickness/vision that RB would be awesome. But we can't. So I'd play Atkinson 5-10 snaps at absolute max as a change of pace. I'd play Carlisle on 3rd down. I'd play McDaniel whenever I need tough yards or don't care about explosive ability. And I'd play Folston on basically all other plays that don't fit into the above. Folston is the only back that comes close to having a truly "complete" NFL skill set when considering all typical physical and mental RB traits.
 

kmoose

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he's a top 25 qb....


and anyone that thinks he's anyting but a space filler becuase we've lacked a better QB won't ever understand, either.


I don't think he's "holding us back"...but he's also not making us better. He's a Matt Schaub. Can play well, at times, but will never win jack and makes some really headscratching mistakes

Yes, your hatred of Tommy Rees, and everything else you can see, is well noted. But you are still wrong. Rees will never win anything? How about those games he came off the bench and won, last year? The kid is on pace to throw for damn near 3,000 yards, with 30 TDs and single digit INTs. But, yeah, he's just filling space....
 

BGIF

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The thing is, the overall problem with our RBs is that they each have strengths to go with other weaknesses. To use a baseball cliché, they aren't "5 tool players". I agree with you that Cam and Folston are by far the most complete of the bunch. I'd say Atkinson is the least complete in the sense that he has the most limitations.

If we could somehow Frankenstein a singular running back that has McDaniel's balance/toughness, Atkinson's speed, Carlisle's ball skills, and Folston's quickness/vision that RB would be awesome. But we can't. So I'd play Atkinson 5-10 snaps at absolute max as a change of pace. I'd play Carlisle on 3rd down. I'd play McDaniel whenever I need tough yards or don't care about explosive ability. And I'd play Folston on basically all other plays that don't fit into the above. Folston is the only back that comes close to having a truly "complete" NFL skill set when considering all typical physical and mental RB traits.

Yet when asked at the PC about Folston's blocking ability, Kelly responded that Folston hasn't really been asked to do that. In layman's term, he's not ready for prime time.

He's probably has the most innate talent but he lacks a key ability to be the regular guy in this offense, the guy that can adjust on the fly WITHOUT the ball and protect his QB, particularly with ND only having one QB. Until such time he's a liability as an everydown back.
 

irishpat183

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Yes, your hatred of Tommy Rees, and everything else you can see, is well noted. But you are still wrong. Rees will never win anything? How about those games he came off the bench and won, last year? The kid is on pace to throw for damn near 3,000 yards, with 30 TDs and single digit INTs. But, yeah, he's just filling space....

I don't "hate" any ND player. Never have.


If I'm wrong about him filling space....why did EG start last year (as a redshirt freshman)?? And EG was poised to start again if he didn't get kicked out. Face it, Tommy isn't starting if EG isn't thrown outta school (next time we need to overlook that)


He's a space filler that has done a decent job. Nothing to be ashamed of. But when I think of great QB's, he aint even on the list.
 

kmoose

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I don't "hate" any ND player. Never have.


If I'm wrong about him filling space....why did EG start last year (as a redshirt freshman)?? And EG was poised to start again if he didn't get kicked out. Face it, Tommy isn't starting if EG isn't thrown outta school (next time we need to overlook that)


He's a space filler that has done a decent job. Nothing to be ashamed of. But when I think of great QB's, he aint even on the list.

So he's not great. That doesn't change the fact that he has played damned well, this year. And it absolutely doesn't mean that he is holding this passing offense back, as the poster that I responded to tried to insinuate.
 

BGIF

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he's a top 25 qb....


and anyone that thinks he's anyting but a space filler becuase we've lacked a better QB won't ever understand, either.


I don't think he's "holding us back"...but he's also not making us better. He's a Matt Schaub. Can play well, at times, but will never win jack and makes some really headscratching mistakes

Then for his high ranking among ND's elite QBs in personal performance (Accuracy, TDs, YDs, Efficiency) and TEAM performance, he's the most successful space filler in history.

Only QB in ND history to throw 5 TDs in a game to 5 different players, 2 of which caught their FIRST TD PASS. Incredible for a QB that "locks" unto one favorite receiver and doesn't recongize anyone others on the field.

In all ND game only one QB in one game has thrown 6 TDs. That was Quinn who has a CAREER Completion % of 58. Three points below Rees's CAREER 61%.



If the words "space filler" appeared in the Word Association Thread, "IrishPat" would be the #1 response.
 

irishpat183

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So he's not great. That doesn't change the fact that he has played damned well, this year. And it absolutely doesn't mean that he is holding this passing offense back, as the poster that I responded to tried to insinuate.

Again, not "holding back"....but he's not doing us any favors with his 50% comp, either now is he??

He's luke warm pizza.

If he had just a shread of athletic ablity, this is probably a different convo. The fact that he can't move, really hurts him (and us)
 

irishpat183

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Then for his high ranking among ND's elite QBs in personal performance (Accuracy, TDs, YDs, Efficiency) and TEAM performance, he's the most successful space filler in history.

Only QB in ND history to throw 5 TDs in a game to 5 different players, 2 of which caught their FIRST TD PASS. Incredible for a QB that "locks" unto one favorite receiver and doesn't recongize anyone others on the field.

In all ND game only one QB in one game has thrown 6 TDs. That was Quinn who has a CAREER Completion % of 58. Three points below Rees's CAREER 61%.



If the words "space filler" appeared in the Word Association Thread, "IrishPat" would be the #1 response.



Well played.



You're singling out a game against the ****ING AIR FORCE ACADEMY.

I rest my case.
 

BGIF

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Again, not "holding back"....but he's not doing us any favors with his 50% comp, ...

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. You don't even approach that.


Pat the more you post the more obvious it becomes how little you know about ND football.
 

IrishLion

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Tommy Rees has the same TD:INT ratio as Johnny Manziel, and that's without the ability to use voodoo-magic to escape the pocket and hit the big, busted plays.

Of course that also means he produces nothing on the ground like Manziel.

But it's interesting to think about the success that Tommy has had as a "statue" pocket passer.
 

BGIF

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Well played.



You're singling out a game against the ****ING AIR FORCE ACADEMY.

I rest my case.


Actually I singled out two games in over a 1,000 ND games, Rees's record and Quinn's.



You rest your case?

If you were a lawyer your case would be rested permanently for malefeasance and fraud.
 
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