Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

NorthDakota

Grandson of Loomis
Messages
15,706
Reaction score
6,013
I'm shocked I tell you...SHOCKED...that people believe Presidents would be more effective in carrying out their agenda if they had more control.

What a dumb poll lmao. I would assume answers generally are pretty indicative of if people A.) support the President's agenda and B.) if they believe Congress is getting in the way of that or not.
 

ACamp1900

Counting my ‘bet against ND’ winnings
Messages
48,954
Reaction score
11,239
It's like when EO's were okay for dems during the last admin. The less power our leaders have over us the better, across the board... that's me regardless of who is in power.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
Hadley Arkes just published an article in The American Mind titled "Does the Right Dare Fight?":

There’s an old joke about two Jewish women in an apartment building in Brooklyn in the 1950s. One was vexed over Israel and the rumblings of war in the Middle East. “Did you see what that lousy Nasser did?” she asked. To which the other replied, “I didn’t see a thing—I live in the back!”

So I felt on hearing from friends, who read things closely and often between the lines, that I was very much in the background of the recent clash between Sohrab Ahmari and David French.

They saw reflections of my own writings in First Things when Ahmari wrote in the same journal “Against David Frenchism,” the article that launched the debate between the two over conservatism. My most recent essay from June/July, “Backing into Relativism,” dealt with similar themes. My concern in that essay was with the way that two other friends, Supreme Court Justices Neil Gorsuch and Samuel Alito, were projecting into the domain of religion the same moral relativism they were settling on (as a tactical move) in the regulation of “speech.” Part of my complaint was that so many of our friends among the judges and lawyers were willing to settle on the test of “sincerity” in judging religious claims because they didn’t want to cast moral judgments on the things different groups professed—and the privileges they claimed—in the name of religion. This approach brings us to a state of affairs in which conservatives are willing to cast the protections of religion even over Satanists, as though the affirmation of radical evil could be reconciled with anything we take seriously as “religion.”

And so our friends find themselves in full pragmatic mode, seeking to protect religious freedom by emptying religion of any substance, most notably the G-word: God, the Creator, the Author of the Laws of Nature, including the moral laws; the God who endowed us with standing as rational and rights-bearing beings. But—to invoke the late Stan Evans—the problem with pragmatism is that it doesn’t work. Gunnar Gundersen has delivered the clinching point here: On the premises of this pragmatic relativism we can no longer give an account of what makes religion a “good,” which deserves our efforts to honor, protect—and encourage—its spread.

But since I wrote my essay, the curious tendency among some of my friends has been to double down on relativism, or settle in with a form of relativism decorously covered over with a fig leaf. And these issues are at the core of the crisis in our politics and culture that moved Sohrab Ahmari to write with such edge. He wrote in part as a challenge to our conservative friends, and he wrote also with anger about the depth of the moral losses we have sustained in the “culture wars."

The Extinction of Civility & Ahmari’s Cri de Coeur

The stakes seem curiously and gravely raised by Ahmari’s disposition now to treat the conflict more seriously as a war, with real enmities, with lives at stake. One telling sign of this came with his suggestion that “civility” might be regarded as a dispensable nicety. But here, I think, David French was distracted by a kind of head-fake on the part of Ahmari. I read Ahmari’s piece as a kind of cri de coeur, a wail of despair over an ongoing string of inversions and corruptions in our way of life.

Ahmari was content to take, as a telling sign of the this sweeping current of change, the example of an ad on Facebook for a drag queen hosting a children’s reading hour in a public library in Sacramento. But other examples abound. We have come to the state of affairs in which a father can lose custody of his 14-year old son who affects to be certain that he’s really a female. The resistance of the father can be taken to mark a “hostile” or poisonous environment at home, a sufficient ground for blocking the interventions of the parents and removing custody.

Ahmari’s sense of despair and loss spurred him on to call us all to treat the culture war as seriously as the other side treats it, and wage it, as they do, to win. But in these calls for “war,” brought forth with trumpets sounding, David French seemed to hear Jacobins of the Right oiling the tumbrils, ready to roll on in attack, letting the shreds of civility fall to the side. French has recoiled from a new conservativism that treats with cold indifference the breakdown of that minimal civility that makes it possible for people with deep differences in politics and religion to live together with at least a thin civic amity.

Here, it seems to me, is where the Ahmari head-fake worked. Rather than French standing against the Yahoos, his response brought back the image of Inspector Clouseau of The Pink Panther, clubbing down the guards of the bank who were chasing the thieves dashing away with their loot. French focused on conservatives contemplating a new militant style, and as he fixed his focus there, he blocked from the screen the full force of the assault rolling forth from the Left, who have not the slightest willingness to contemplate a life in peace with the likes of anyone on the Right.

What needs to be recognized as the first point of sobriety is that the Progressives and the Left truly despise us. They mean to drive us out of the public square, to make it illegitimate to express our moral arguments in the media or in the academy, and they mean to drive us out of private settings as well. They forced Brendan Eich out of his executive position at Mozilla and James Damore out of his engineering position at Google, just as they now warn young lawyers, who would dare resist the acceptance of same-sex marriage or express serious doubt about the validity of transgenderism.

When Clarence Thomas was nominated to the Supreme Court, he remarked to his wife Virginia in a bantering way that the people gearing up to oppose him wanted to kill him. He was not, he thought, being literal. But reality settled upon him with the unrelieved nastiness of what followed: They really did want him dead. As they would have him and others among us dead right now. Why else would five federal marshals be required this summer for Brett Kavanaugh to teach a two-week seminar in England?

If we don’t understand that we’ve gone now beyond the conventions of civility; that the enemies on the Left want to expel us from public life and make our private lives untenable; that they despise us with a lethal hatred—if we don’t grasp that, we are not looking at the world in front of us with unclouded eyes. If there is anyone who needs to be reproached and called to a life of tolerance and civility, it is not Sohrab Ahmari.

Does America Have a Common Good?

I find in Ahmari’s cri de coeur the sense of despair shared by many of us. To wit: If we are engaged in a “culture war,” it is being fought forthrightly as a moral battle on only one side. The Left are convinced they are making nothing less than moral arguments on the deep rightness of same-sex marriage and abortion, the wrongness of saying anything critical about transgenderism, and anything else in the vision of sexual liberation. The conservative side in the courts responds with tired clichés of “conservative jurisprudence” and prides itself on avoiding moral reasoning altogether.

Conservative lawyers were willing to defend the right of the people in California to reject same-sex marriage, but they had trouble summoning the words when it came to offering the moral defense of marriage as the union of one man and one woman. Up to John Roberts’s dissenting opinion in Obergefell v. Hodges, the conservative jurists would retreat with their usual formula and refer only to “traditional” marriage. “Tradition” is something conservatives invoke precisely because they can’t summon the words to explain what is morally compelling, or simply defensible, in the arrangements they are defending. But there were few institutions more “traditional” than slavery when it was ended in America. Every invocation of tradition could be met with a replay of Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes’s line that you need to say something more in defense of any law than that it’s been around since Henry IV.

And yet, in the face of this downward spiral, the lively wits among us warn us that we will be heading into dangerous waters if we start taking too seriously again the classic notion of the polis, the political order, finding its telos or purpose in something more than protecting people in their lives and property. We are told that it is dangerous to think of ourselves politically as a community, cultivating a sense of morality and justice in one another by teaching through the laws.

And so now, wonder of wonders, we see revived this very argument within our own family, which had been conducted years ago by Martin Diamond and Walter Berns on one side and Harry Jaffa on the other.

The argument offered by Diamond and Berns ran in this way: The American regime was not meant to be a polis in the classical sense. It was not meant to be a community that sought to direct itself to the highest human ends, its citizens engaged with the most demanding questions about the purpose of human life. When polities were ordered to a life of taking those questions seriously, the answers usually came with an established church and a more constricted set of civil liberties. The American republic would not be relentless in seeking some elevated “common good”; it would settle instead for a regime that left people free to seek their own ends, directing their own “pursuit of happiness” by their own personal lights. Hence the old line that the American Founders had “built upon low, but solid ground.”

What has been eerie of late is that this argument has floated back, rather like the ghost of a lost pirate ship—it has come back with virtually the same words said by the writers who have picked up the cues and taken David French’s side of the argument.

In all sobriety, of course, the notion of a “common good” can never mean a material good, equally diffused, equally felt by everyone in the community. The best analogy here is to the famous Ship of Theseus: all of the timbers composing the ship are replaced over time, and yet the ship is still recognizable. It is still the same ship, not because it has remained materially the same, but because it can still be identified by the shape and form that had given it definition. The same thing holds exactly for the polity: How do we recognize this American republic, surviving in its main form for nearly 250 years even as generations have died off and the people who constituted it have been replaced by others? America retains its characteristic form because it retains mainly the same defining structure, built on principles that are still there, still true, even as fewer and fewer citizens can give an account of them. But that in itself points to the path of recovery: The common good can be revived as we come to understand again, as a people, those principles of right and wrong that may justly claim to govern us precisely because they hold their validity for all of us, for everyone who comes under the laws.

Yet once again we have heard that if we take seriously the terms of principle on which we live together as a people, if we become too demanding in pressing those moral questions about the rightful ends of the laws, we will be living under a “theocracy.” That kind of connection can be made only by people who have lost the original understanding of the connection between the “logic of morals” and the “logic of law.” If we asked, “For whom would it be ‘wrong’ to torture an infant?” the answer to that question of right and wrong, coming back in a moral voice, would be, “It would be wrong for anyone, for everyone.”And when we come to that moral recognition, we lay the groundwork for forbidding that torture to anyone, to everyone: we would lay the ground for forbidding it with the force of law. That does not mean we are obliged to stamp as illegal every wrong we can see, but it does raise the bar: we do need to explain why any wrong would indeed be general or universal, for anyone coming under its terms, before we are warranted in imposing laws to forbid it.

The simple truth of the matter, running back to Aristotle, is that we have laws only because we have moral judgment, and as long as we have laws, we will never be detached from a life of moral judgments. And when we discover that the law just can’t evade the need for moral judgment, we discover anew—contra Diamond and Berns—that we have never left the polis, even here in America.

Marriage, Sexual Orientation, Transgenderism, and Abortion

I read David French, in his expansive nature, urging us to have the confidence to take a Burkean path: Like true conservatives, we can make our peace even with a political order not exactly reflecting the terms of principle on which we would prefer to live. Within our own circles, for people within our reach, we can live a life closer to the moral code that summons us. And we can continue, where possible, to make our arguments and press our positions in the politics of the day.

But for Ahmari this stance looks like a recipe for the peace after surrender—the acceptance of a state of dhimmitude. There may be skirmishes here and there, but the war has mainly been lost, and conservatives will treat same-sex marriage and religion-without-theism as politically untouchable. One professor of law who had been engaged with us in drafting Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) in 1996 told me recently that the issue of marriage was now lost, that it was quite unavailing to launch any effort to start chipping away at the Obergefell case. Soon, in turn, we will lose the will to stand up against the destructive illusions of the transgendered, whether it’s the matter of males in female bathrooms or the defense of parents trying to rescue their teenagers from disfiguring surgeries.

But there precisely is where the argument may be joined, and a test finally put to us over this argument within the family.

David French has said that a stance of civic tolerance will not divert us from plunging back, with new force, into the culture war. Ahmari may rightly ask then, “Where exactly are you willing to challenge the other side, on issues that some conservatives now consider to be settled and lost?” Would you challenge the judgment of that conservative professor who argues that any further resistance on marriage is futile? Would you be prepared to say that the culture war doesn’t end until we’ve been shown to be wrong in our moral understanding of gender and abortion?

We can readily pick out three or four issues that test the principles running to the root in our current crisis and our “present discontents.” Almost all of them would be understood at once by ordinary people. Let me offer a string of them.

Marriage

On marriage there is a lever at hand. The holding in Obergefell, on same-sex marriage, could be challenged in a move of sublime moderation that could nevertheless expose the fallacies in the decision and begin some serious unraveling.

What I have in mind is the proposal for a Defense of Monogamous Marriage Act (DOMMA). That would simply enact another version of the Defense of Marriage Act, but with these components: that neither the federal government nor the states would be obliged to recognize as a “marriage” a union of more than two people. That proposal made its way to the staff of Paul Ryan when he was Speaker in the last Congress, and I was told that the Speaker would make a decision on bringing the matter to the floor if a sponsor could be found for the bill.

For the leadership the prospect was intriguing, for they couldn’t guess how Democrats would vote on such a bill. On the one hand, the Democrats don’t want to come out explicitly for polygamy, but on the other they are reflexively opposed to virtually any measure that would cast a moral judgment on the way that people act out their sexuality. As for the courts, the Supreme Court could not strike down this bill without virtually licensing polygamy. In the meantime, we would establish—in the face of Justice Kennedy’s dubiety—that Congress does indeed have the authority legislate on this subject of marriage.

There were two conservative congressmen who were willing to consider acting as sponsors of the bill, but both men had other troubles of their own and they didn’t survive their primaries. Still, the proposal is as sound and as provocative as it ever was in testing the constitutional argument. What remains is finding the conservative congressman with the nerve to introduce it.

Again, would French and his friends find this a challenge worth mounting?

Sexual Orientation

Discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is the key term in the statutes brought against businessmen who don’t wish to celebrate same-sex marriage or have transgendered people represent their firms to customers. And yet, the term is empirically unstable and morally dubious. Studies have shown people shifting their sexual orientations two or three times within a period of 10 years. Even gay activists have regarded pedophilia and bestiality as beneath acceptance. And if gay activists still consider some sexual orientations as illegitimate, we could hardly be warranted in passing laws that, in a sweeping way, bar all discrimination based on sexual orientation. It is time to make that explicit challenge to the laws on discrimination rather than merely seeking an exemption for the religious. It would be unwarranted to impose these laws on anyone.

Transgenderism

We can seek legislation or decisions in courts to protect parents against laws that would remove the custody of minors from parents who would seek counsel for children suffering confusion over their sex or sexual identity. These are parents, after all, who simply insist on respecting the objective truths that mark the natures of males and females. The Trump administration is quietly putting in place executive orders trying to counter the drive toward transgenderism, but none of this takes the place of arguments articulated by figures at the top of the administration, or by a GOP ready to go the country on the issue. I suspect this matter is the “soft underbelly,” one might say, of the whole LGBTQ+ edifice.

Would David French and his friends be inclined to see this issue raised when calling out the vote in 2020, or do they think it too imprudent?

Abortion

No issue runs deeper, for abortion involves the question of who constitutes that “human person” who is the bearer of rights, subject to the protections of the law. Abortion is the principal issue on which Republicans in Congress have found their cohesion as a conservative, pro-life party.

Twice in the last two Congresses, a unified Republican party in the House brought forth the Born-Alive Survivors of Abortion Protection Act to restore legal penalties, which had been stripped from the original Born-Alive bill in 2002, to protect the child who survived an abortion. No Democrat voiced a vote in opposition to that original bill. But twice now, in September 2015 and January 2018, all but five or six Democrats in the House voted against the bill that would have punished the kind of post-abortion slaughter practiced by the likes of Kermit Gosnell. With that move the Democrats have firmed up their most radical position: that the right to abortion extends beyond the pregnancy and involves nothing less than the right to kill a child born alive.

This position, made explicit, would still shock a public that hasn’t become entirely anesthetized on this issue, including many people who count themselves as “pro-choice.” The wonder is that Donald Trump made no use of this issue in 2016 and mentions it only fleetingly now. For a man who regards himself as uncommonly attuned to the sentiments of the broad public, Trump’s reticence here defies explanation. This is an issue on which he could drive the Democrats into the sea, even before the oceans start rising.

But in the meantime, if the Republicans can regain the House, the surge of their conviction may awaken even the conservative judges. No Republican voting in the House has suffered a moment’s doubt that the textbooks on embryology have it right: that the child in the human womb has been nothing other than a human being from its earliest moments. This offspring does not undergo a change of species at birth or at any other time as its features fill out in the womb. Even people who aren’t lawyers seem aware that the laws on homicide do not vary with the height and age of the victim; that it is not a more serious murder to kill an older, taller man than a small child.

Those trained as lawyers could add the news that the Fourteenth Amendment was meant to protect “life” as well as liberty when they are threatened by the laws and officers of a state. As it happened, virtually all of the states in this country did cast legal protections on the child in the womb, and it was the decision of the Supreme Court in Roe v. Wade that swept away the laws that protected unborn children. Congress could well invoke its authority under the Fourteenth Amendment itself and restore the authority of the states to cast their protections again over babies in the womb. This move might also awaken some of our best friends among the judges, who signed on long ago to the conservative cliché that the most judges could do was return the issue of abortion to the States—that nothing in the Constitution authorized Congress or the courts to engage their authority when the protections of the law were withdrawn from this one class of human beings.

Would Mr. French think this a matter of importance, high enough and pressing enough to summon the arts of those who would be leaders of the conservative party?

Unity Through Moral Reasoning?

A Simple Test There is no want then of places or moments touching the issues of deepest moral import in our political life where conservative arguments may be made anew, with a moral argument no longer muffled. To shake off our diffidence, to summon the nerve for pursuing politics in this way, would offer the strongest challenge to the Progressive ideology that has now cast over us as an orthodoxy. I can spot several men and women, not in politics alone, but in the academy and the courts, who have the nerve and skill to make these arguments. The test for us, though, is whether the conservatives who enjoin us not to be uncivil would be willing to see their fellow conservatives ignite fires in our national life by making this serious challenge and fighting the culture war “for keeps.”

When the attempt was made in 1919 to induce key players on the White Sox to throw the World Series to the Cincinnati Reds, the gambler Arnold Rothstein conveyed the code: The starting Sox pitcher, Eddie Cicotte, was to hit the first batter who came to the plate. He did, and that was the signal that the deal was on. We need someone at this moment to take any of these issues I’ve set down here, make the signal gesture of assembling a team, and present the argument that jolts the Left—and surprises the conservatives. Do that, and we’ll know that the game is on. More than that, we’ll know there’s no further ground for serious division within this circle of conservative friends.

Sharing this because Arkes does a good job of describing how the leaders of Conservatism, Inc. are worse than useless. But I'm so blackbilled on this stuff that I have no hope in the plan he sketches out above. David French and other conservative intellectuals are like the Washington Generals. They're not paid to show up and actually compete against the Harlem Globetrotters, let alone dream of winning. They're paid to produce the illusion of competition, to show up and get their asses kicked repeatedly; but they do it with such sound principles.

A conservative is just a liberal going the speed-limit. But he's still headed in the same direction as the Progressives.
 

NorthDakota

Grandson of Loomis
Messages
15,706
Reaction score
6,013
Hadley Arkes just published an article in The American Mind titled "Does the Right Dare Fight?":



Sharing this because Arkes does a good job of describing how the leaders of Conservatism, Inc. are worse than useless. But I'm so blackbilled on this stuff that I have no hope in the plan he sketches out above. David French and other conservative intellectuals are like the Washington Generals. They're not paid to show up and actually compete against the Harlem Globetrotters, let alone dream of winning. They're paid to produce the illusion of competition, to show up and get their asses kicked repeatedly; but they do it with such sound principles.

A conservative is just a liberal going the speed-limit. But he's still headed in the same direction as the Progressives.

Yassssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss King!
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
Ben Sixsmith just published an article in the Spectator titled "L. Brent Bozell, Jr., conservative insurrectionist":

I suspect at least 10 times more Americans will have heard of William F. Buckley Jr than L. Brent Bozell Jr but things could have been very different. For years, Bozell was Buckley’s closest collaborator and perhaps the second most influential ideologue in the nascent conservative movement. He helped with the founding of National Review, co-wrote McCarthy and His Enemies with his college friend Buckley and ghostwrote The Conscience of a Conservative for Barry Goldwater.

Bozell was a fierce Cold Warrior. Even the hawkish Buckley might have blanched when his tall, red-headed, impetuous friend announced that the United States should be ‘disposed to use [nuclear weapons] in good conscience’ against the Soviet Union. As the 1960s progressed, though, and Bill Buckley’s star as an author, editor and interviewer grew, Bozell became disillusioned with the movement he had helped to build. A devoted Catholic, he had moved to Franco’s Spain in search of a more explicitly religious home, and as US laws regarding abortion and divorce were loosened, and its horrifying war in Vietnam developed, he became not just doubtful but outright hostile towards the Republican party.

When Frank Meyer had promoted ‘fusionism’, or the union of cultural conservatism and political liberalism, Bozell had been critical. The differences within the conservative dialogue, as Meyer has said, are matters of ‘emphasis’, he had written:

‘…but emphasis can be the difference between up and down. The story of how the Free society has come to take priority over the good society is the story of the decline of the West.’

By the time Bozell wrote ‘Letter to Yourselves’, published in Triumph, the Catholic journal he had founded, he had consciously abandoned the conservative movement. This fascinating essay, with references to Marshall McLuhan, Edmund Burke and Aristotle, insisted, ‘On every front where your program has confronted secular liberalism’s, you have been beaten.’

Bozell argued for a political Catholicism, castigating cheerful attempts to imagine that virtue could he inculcated through private behavior or incremental change:

‘What point is there in encouraging virtue in the family, and having it undermined in the school and on the street? What point in passing on truth by the unadorned word, only to have it repudiated by art? What point in arranging the departments of government to assure concord and liberty, when the arrangements of the social and economic orders forbid concord and liberty?’

‘The world must speak of God,’ Bozell quoted the French priest Jean Danielou as writing, ‘otherwise, man can normally have no access to him.’

Passive dialogue was not enough for Bozell. He became, as far as I know, the only National Review contributor to be arrested for participating in a disorderly protest when with a group of like-minded Catholics named ‘Sons of Thunder’ – clad, misguidedly, in khakis and red berets – he broke into an abortion clinic with the intention of disrupting its procedures. A journalist for The Free Lance-Star was baffled by the thought of a supposed conservative defying law and order. ‘If disorder is necessary to stop this murder of babies,’ Bozell replied pugnaciously, ‘I’m in favor of disorder.’

Bozell was dogged by manic depression and lived most of the last years of life outside the public eye, working faithfully and selflessly with Hispanic immigrants and prison inmates. In his biography, Living on Fire, Daniel Kelly writes:

‘Gaunt, stooped, his hair now suggesting rust more than fire, he looked barely capable of maintaining his strenuous pace…yet year after year he managed to keep limping along, held up by the will to bestow and receive mercy.’

It is tempting to reduce Bozell’s political radicalism to his mental disorders but I think this would be reductionist.

American conservatism has, in recent months, been fraught with ideological conflict between ‘post-liberal’ conservatives, most prominently represented by Sohrab Ahmari of the New York Post, and ‘fusionist’ conservatives, whose figurehead is David French of National Review. The former advocate for a religiously-inflected political vision centered around the common good while the latter defend classical liberalism in politics and cultural conservatism in private life and social commentary.

As neither a believer nor an American I hesitate to take a firm stand on one side or the other, but such a dispute has been a long time coming and is, if anything, disproportionately mild and lackadaisical given the dire circumstances social conservatives face. Hundreds of thousands of abortions are performed each year. Marriage rates have hit unprecedented depths and fatherless families are more numerous than ever. Hardcore pornography is ubiquitous. Drug abuse is killing tens of thousands every year. Gay marriage is unquestionable. ‘Sex reassignment’ and its associated demands are as sacred. Cultural conservatives are by no means all nationalists – men like Bozell, after all, belong to a universal church – but those who are can hardly fail to have noticed that even under President Trump migration rates have barely dipped.

None of this looks as though it is about to change. President Trump is riding on the enthusiasm of tribally anti-Democrat economic liberals, gun enthusiasts and nativists with an inchoate – if often understandable – sense of dissatisfaction with the previous progressive paradigm. The Democrats, meanwhile, are growing ever more radical in their cultural liberalism. Technological trends are aimed towards an increasingly post-human and atomized future. Conditions are ripe, then, for more radically oppositionist conservatisms, traditionalisms and integralisms; ideological and political movements which strive not to nudge society in a different direction but to throw it onto an entirely different course, and less through mainstream politicking and dialogue than through alternative means of organization and activism.

The value of this I leave to you, gentle reader, but one thing I feel assured in saying is that the current obscurity of L. Brent Bozell Jr will not deny him powerful historic resonance.
 

IrishLax

Something Witty
Staff member
Messages
37,546
Reaction score
29,005
Why does mainstream media still refuse to report on this? At this point it is proven that Ilhan Omar is more fit to be deported as a criminal than be a serving member of Congress.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Ilhan Omar has just deleted this tweet from 2013 that proves her father is Nur Said, which makes her Ilhan Nur Said (surnames are the fathers names in most Muslim/MENA countries), and that Ahmed Nur Said, who she married, is in fact her brother.<br><br>Why did you delete it, <a href="https://twitter.com/IlhanMN?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@IlhanMN</a>!? <a href="https://t.co/rRjwPyu2X7">pic.twitter.com/rRjwPyu2X7</a></p>— Imam Mohamad Tawhidi (@Imamofpeace) <a href="https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1173928676859072512?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 17, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

ulukinatme

Carr for QB 2026!
Messages
31,523
Reaction score
17,410
Why does mainstream media still refuse to report on this? At this point it is proven that Ilhan Omar is more fit to be deported as a criminal than be a serving member of Congress.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Ilhan Omar has just deleted this tweet from 2013 that proves her father is Nur Said, which makes her Ilhan Nur Said (surnames are the fathers names in most Muslim/MENA countries), and that Ahmed Nur Said, who she married, is in fact her brother.<br><br>Why did you delete it, <a href="https://twitter.com/IlhanMN?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@IlhanMN</a>!? <a href="https://t.co/rRjwPyu2X7">pic.twitter.com/rRjwPyu2X7</a></p>— Imam Mohamad Tawhidi (@Imamofpeace) <a href="https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1173928676859072512?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 17, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


Seems like it took Twitter quite a few tries before they let him put that one up. It wasn't until he posted this video that it went through:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Look at what <a href="https://twitter.com/Twitter?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Twitter</a> is doing. It’s blocking me from tweeting about Ilhan Omar. I have to try 20-30 times for each tweet and log out and in again in order for it to work. ALL OTHER TWEETS WORK PERFECTLY. RETWEET AND EXPOSE! <a href="https://t.co/cjIgMXNWfY">pic.twitter.com/cjIgMXNWfY</a></p>— Imam Mohamad Tawhidi (@Imamofpeace) <a href="https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1173935353050230784?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 17, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

NorthDakota

Grandson of Loomis
Messages
15,706
Reaction score
6,013
Why does mainstream media still refuse to report on this? At this point it is proven that Ilhan Omar is more fit to be deported as a criminal than be a serving member of Congress.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Ilhan Omar has just deleted this tweet from 2013 that proves her father is Nur Said, which makes her Ilhan Nur Said (surnames are the fathers names in most Muslim/MENA countries), and that Ahmed Nur Said, who she married, is in fact her brother.<br><br>Why did you delete it, <a href="https://twitter.com/IlhanMN?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@IlhanMN</a>!? <a href="https://t.co/rRjwPyu2X7">pic.twitter.com/rRjwPyu2X7</a></p>— Imam Mohamad Tawhidi (@Imamofpeace) <a href="https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1173928676859072512?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 17, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

You are a racist.

For what its worth... I got friends who are clerks that are both GOP and Dem amd they tell me it's a matter of time.

Their opinion is universally that the the Feds wont pursue a case until they have ironclad proof. They had it with Menendez and it made the Feds look bad even though he was guilty as sin.

I dont see how she gets out of this without going to court.
 

Irish#1

Livin' Your Dream!
Staff member
Messages
44,619
Reaction score
20,104
Seems like it took Twitter quite a few tries before they let him put that one up. It wasn't until he posted this video that it went through:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Look at what <a href="https://twitter.com/Twitter?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Twitter</a> is doing. It’s blocking me from tweeting about Ilhan Omar. I have to try 20-30 times for each tweet and log out and in again in order for it to work. ALL OTHER TWEETS WORK PERFECTLY. RETWEET AND EXPOSE! <a href="https://t.co/cjIgMXNWfY">pic.twitter.com/cjIgMXNWfY</a></p>— Imam Mohamad Tawhidi (@Imamofpeace) <a href="https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1173935353050230784?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 17, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


Sad on so many levels.
 

Legacy

New member
Messages
7,871
Reaction score
321
Where the Government Workforce Is (And Isn't) Keeping Up With Growth (Governing)
Per capita public employment dropped the most in Alaska and Arizona, while other states are expanding their workforces.

The prevalence of government jobs is heading in starkly different directions across the country.

Last year, there were 233 state and local government employees, excluding teachers, for every 10,000 Americans. That’s the exact same rate as five years ago, according to our calculations of data from the Census Bureau’s Annual Survey of Public Employment and Payroll.

To assess shifts in each state, we calculated numbers of full-time equivalent state and local government employees per capita for 2013 and 2018 from Census data, excluding education employees and federal workers.

Alaska and Arizona sustained the largest declines in government workers....

Has interactive visual for data on each state.
 
Last edited:

IrishLion

I am Beyonce, always.
Staff member
Messages
19,128
Reaction score
11,077
Seems like it took Twitter quite a few tries before they let him put that one up. It wasn't until he posted this video that it went through:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Look at what <a href="https://twitter.com/Twitter?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Twitter</a> is doing. It’s blocking me from tweeting about Ilhan Omar. I have to try 20-30 times for each tweet and log out and in again in order for it to work. ALL OTHER TWEETS WORK PERFECTLY. RETWEET AND EXPOSE! <a href="https://t.co/cjIgMXNWfY">pic.twitter.com/cjIgMXNWfY</a></p>— Imam Mohamad Tawhidi (@Imamofpeace) <a href="https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1173935353050230784?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 17, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

As much as I love a good conspiracy, it could just be a problem with trying to publish a threaded tweet from the "drafts" folder.

I've gotten this same error when trying to published a thread from my drafts for my work account.

I just use a social media content manager, now, which keeps me from using the clunky and unreliable Twitter and Facebook draft and scheduling pages.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The campaign of Arizona Republican Daniel McCarthy tells RCP he is serious and that annexing Mexico is in line with an America First immigration policy.<a href="https://t.co/y35YJKYwsk">https://t.co/y35YJKYwsk</a></p>— Philip Wegmann (@PhilipWegmann) <a href="https://twitter.com/PhilipWegmann/status/1174423965974061056?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 18, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

The Empire of Guadalupe is happening.
 

zelezo vlk

Well-known member
Messages
18,013
Reaction score
5,055
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The campaign of Arizona Republican Daniel McCarthy tells RCP he is serious and that annexing Mexico is in line with an America First immigration policy.<a href="https://t.co/y35YJKYwsk">https://t.co/y35YJKYwsk</a></p>— Philip Wegmann (@PhilipWegmann) <a href="https://twitter.com/PhilipWegmann/status/1174423965974061056?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 18, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

The Empire of Guadalupe is happening.
That's ridiculous. Clearly it will be Mexico who annexes the US, with annexation officially taking place when the President kneeling surrenders the Declaration of Independence to la Virgén on Tepeyac Hill.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
 

Legacy

New member
Messages
7,871
Reaction score
321
EPA targets California over poor air quality (AP)

The Trump administration on Tuesday blamed California’s worst-in-the nation air quality on shoddy paperwork, calling on the state to overhaul its plans for cleaning up toxic smog or risk losing billions in federal road dollars.

The government’s warning is the latest battle between the Trump administration and California. It comes days after the Trump administration moved to block the state’s emission standards for cars and trucks, a move that would eliminate California’s most important weapon for combating its biggest source of pollution.

Tuesday’s announcement by U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Andrew Wheeler chastised California for its backlog of pending rules and regulations to reduce pollution in areas that do not meet federal air quality standards.

But Wheeler’s letter to the California Air Resources Board puzzled state regulators and even former EPA officials who say the backlog exists because the federal government has not approved the plans.

“It makes no sense,” said Gay MacGregor, a former senior policy adviser for the EPA Office of Transportation and Air Quality from 1983 until 2016. “What they are doing today is basically punishing California for EPA’s own inaction.”

The federal government sets rules for how much pollution can be in the air. Lots of places in the country don’t meet those standards. But no state has more problems than California, where 85% of the population — 34 million people — breathe dirty air.

Federal law requires states with dirty air to come up with a plan on how to reduce pollution. Those plans must be approved by the EPA. The federal agency has a backlog of these plans awaiting approval, and California accounts for more than 130 of them, or about one-third of the total....
 

ulukinatme

Carr for QB 2026!
Messages
31,523
Reaction score
17,410
<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpelosiforcongress%2Fvideos%2F2326113124294601%2F&show_text=0&width=267" width="267" height="476" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowTransparency="true" allowFullScreen="true"></iframe>

The comments are gold.
Realistically what has this Congress accomplished in the last year aside from investigate and waste tax dollars?
 
Last edited:

Irish#1

Livin' Your Dream!
Staff member
Messages
44,619
Reaction score
20,104
Realistically what has this Congress accomplished in the last year aside from investigate and waste tax dollars?

The station I listen to has sports all day except from noon to 3:00 when it has Rush Limbaugh. I never listen to him, but given the impeachment probe I decided to listen to him this afternoon. He said the exact same thing you did.
 

Legacy

New member
Messages
7,871
Reaction score
321
<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpelosiforcongress%2Fvideos%2F2326113124294601%2F&show_text=0&width=267" width="267" height="476" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowTransparency="true" allowFullScreen="true"></iframe>

The comments are gold.
Realistically what has this Congress accomplished in the last year aside from investigate and waste tax dollars?

Numbers:
Bills Introduced - 7,224
Reported out of Committee - 422
Passed House (Senate next) - 252
Passed Senate (House next) - 76
Passed House and Senate (President next) - 6
Enacted - 61 (3 are joint resolutions)
Resolutions passed - 317
Bills or resolutions passed in one chamber with significant votes in one chamber increasing their likelihood of action - 336
Passed by House and Senate, vetoed by President and overrides failed in House or in Senate - 5

Some are omnibus bills like general appropriations and defense bills and continuing resolutions.
Some passed by the House have not been introduced in the Senate. McConnell has said he would not take up bills unless the President would sign them.
Some of those passed are renaming post offices. Drill down for the major bills that became law.

Source which you can filter, including status of the bill and chances of being signed: Advanced Search for Legislation

I understand where you are coming from. Partisanship and failure to compromise has defeated bills on major issues that would contribute to the public good.

They are at odds over election security prior to 2020, for example.
AP Explains: Congress’ fight over election security bills
 
Last edited:

Irish#1

Livin' Your Dream!
Staff member
Messages
44,619
Reaction score
20,104
Numbers:
Bills Introduced - 7,224
Reported out of Committee - 422
Passed House (Senate next) - 252
Passed Senate (House next) - 76
Passed House and Senate (President next) - 6
Enacted - 61 (3 are joint resolutions)
Resolutions passed - 317
Bills or resolutions passed in one chamber with significant votes in one chamber increasing their likelihood of action - 336
Passed by House and Senate, vetoed by President and overrides failed in House or in Senate - 5

Some are omnibus bills like general appropriations and defense bills and continuing resolutions.
Some passed by the House have not been introduced in the Senate. McConnell has said he would not take up bills unless the President would sign them.
Some of those passed are renaming post offices. Drill down for the major bills that became law.

Source which you can filter, including status of the bill and chances of being signed: Advanced Search for Legislation

I understand where you are coming from. Partisanship and failure to compromise has defeated bills on major issues that would contribute to the public good.

They are at odds over election security prior to 2020, for example.
AP Explains: Congress’ fight over election security bills

She's put in a lot of work, no doubt. Yet, the comments weren't what have you done previously? The comments were about the Dems focusing all their time on impeachment.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
Relevant to Jeffrey Epstein's "suicide", the Guardian just published an article titled "From mind control to murder? How a deadly fall revealed the CIA's darkest secrets":

Glass shattered high above Seventh Avenue in Manhattan before dawn on a cold November morning in 1953. Seconds later, a body hit the sidewalk. Jimmy, the doorman at the Statler hotel, was momentarily stunned. Then he turned and ran into the hotel lobby. “We got a jumper!” he shouted. “We got a jumper!”

The night manager peered up through the darkness at his hulking hotel. After a few moments, he picked out a curtain flapping through an open window. It turned out to be room 1018A. Two names were on the registration card: Frank Olson and Robert Lashbrook.

Police officers entered room 1018A with guns drawn. They saw no one. The window was open. They pushed open the door to the bathroom and found Lashbrook sitting on the toilet, head in hands. He had been sleeping, he said, and “I heard a noise and then I woke up.”

“The man that went out the window, what is his name?” one officer asked.

“Olson,” came the reply. “Frank Olson.”

“In all my years in the hotel business,” the night manager later reflected, “I never encountered a case where someone got up in the middle of the night, ran across a dark room in his underwear, avoiding two beds, and dove through a closed window with the shade and curtains drawn.”

Leaving the police officers, the night manager returned to the lobby and, on a hunch, asked the telephone operator if any calls had recently been made from room 1018A. “Yes,” she replied – and she had eavesdropped, not an uncommon practice in an era when hotel phone calls were routed through a switchboard. Someone in the room had called a number on Long Island, which was listed as belonging to Dr Harold Abramson, a distinguished physician, less well known as an LSD expert and one of the CIA’s medical collaborators.

“Well, he’s gone,” the caller had said. Abramson replied: “Well, that’s too bad.”

To the first police officers on the scene, this seemed like another of the human tragedies they saw too often: a distressed or distraught man had taken his own life. They could not have known that the dead man and the survivor were scientists who helped direct one of the US government’s most highly classified intelligence programmes.

Early the next morning, one of Olson’s close colleagues drove to Maryland to break the terrible news to the dead man’s family. He told Alice Olson and her three children that Frank “fell or jumped” to his death from a hotel window. Naturally, they were shocked, but they had no choice other than to accept what they were told. Alice did not object when told that, given the condition of her husband’s body, family members should not view it. The funeral was held with a closed casket. There the case might have ended.

Decades later, however, spectacular revelations cast Olson’s death in a completely new light. First, the CIA admitted that, shortly before he died, Olson’s colleagues had lured him to a retreat and fed him LSD without his knowledge. Then it turned out that Olson had talked about leaving the CIA – and told his wife that he had made “a terrible mistake”. Slowly, a counter-narrative emerged: Olson was disturbed about his work and wanted to quit, leading his comrades to consider him a security risk. All of this led him to room 1018A.

Frank Olson had been one of the first scientists assigned to the secret US biological warfare laboratories at Fort Detrick in Frederick, Maryland during the second world war. There Olson began working with the handful of colleagues who would accompany him throughout his clandestine career. One was Harold Abramson. Others included ex-Nazi scientists who had been brought to work on secret missions in the US. For a time they worked on aerosol technologies – ways to spray germs or toxins on enemies and to defend against such attacks. Later, Olson met with American intelligence officers who had experimented with “truth drugs” in Europe.

Olson was discharged from the army in 1944, but remained at Fort Detrick on a civilian contract and continued his research into aerobiology. Several times he visited the secluded Dugway Proving Ground in Utah, which was used for testing “living biological agents, munitions and aerosol cloud production”. He co-authored a 220-page study entitled Experimental Airborne Infections, which described experiments with “airborne clouds of highly infectious agents”.

In 1949, he travelled to the Caribbean for Operation Harness, which tested the vulnerability of animals to toxic clouds. The next year, he was part of Operation Sea Spray, in which dust engineered to float like anthrax was released near San Francisco. He regularly travelled to Fort Terry, a secret army base on Plum Island, off the eastern tip of Long Island, which was used to test toxins too deadly to be brought on to the US mainland.

This was the period when senior army and CIA officers were becoming deeply alarmed at what they feared was Soviet progress toward mastering forms of warfare based on microbes. Their alarm led to the creation of the special operations division. Rumours about its work spread through offices and laboratories. Olson learned of it over an evening game of cards with a colleague, John Schwab, who unbeknown to him, had been named the division’s first chief. Schwab invited him to join. Olson accepted immediately.

Less than a year later, Olson succeeded Schwab as chief of the special operations division. His job description was vague but tantalising: collect data “of interest to the division, with particular emphasis on the medico-biological aspects”, and coordinate his work with “other agencies conducting work of a similar or related nature”. That meant the CIA.

Olson’s speciality was “the airborne distribution of biological germs”, according to one study. “Dr Olson had developed a range of lethal aerosols in handy sized containers. They were disguised as shaving cream and insect repellants. They contained, among other agents, staph enteroxin, a crippling food poison; the even more deadly Venezuelan equine encephalomyelitis; and most deadly of all, anthrax ... Further weapons he was working on included a cigarette lighter which gave out an almost instant lethal gas, a lipstick that would kill on contact with skin and a neat pocket spray for asthma sufferers that induced pneumonia.”

By the time Olson stepped down as chief of the special operations division in early 1953, complaining that the pressures of the job aggravated his ulcers, he had joined the CIA. He stayed with the division, which was officially part of the army but functioned as a CIA research station hidden within a military base. There he came to know Sidney Gottlieb and his deputy, Robert Lashbrook, the two scientists who would soon be running a top-secret CIA project codenamed MK-Ultra.

Gottlieb was the CIA’s chief poison-maker. Over two decades, he oversaw medical experiments and “special interrogation” projects in which hundreds of people were tormented and many minds were permanently shattered. During this period, there was an obsession at the CIA: there is a way to control the human mind, and if it can be found, the prize will be nothing less than global mastery. MK-Ultra was a top secret programme of experiments in mind control that used, as its basic formula, doses of LSD given to “expendables”. Gottlieb wanted to discover how much LSD a human being could take. Could there be a breaking point, he wondered – a dose so massive that it would shatter the mind and blast away consciousness, leaving a void into which new impulses or even a new personality could be implanted?

In his laboratory at Fort Detrick, Olson directed experiments that involved gassing or poisoning laboratory animals. These experiences disturbed him. “He’d come to work in the morning and see piles of dead monkeys,” his son Eric later recalled. “That messes with you. He wasn’t the right guy for that.”

Olson also saw human beings suffer. Although not a torturer himself, he observed and monitored torture sessions in several countries.

“In CIA safe-houses in Germany,” according to one study, “Olson witnessed horrific brutal interrogations on a regular basis. Detainees who were deemed ‘expendable’ – suspected spies or moles, security leaks, etc – were literally interrogated to death in experimental methods combining drugs, hypnosis and torture, to attempt to master brainwashing techniques and memory erasing.”

As Thanksgiving approached in 1953, Olson received an invitation to gather on Wednesday 18 November for a retreat at a cabin on Deep Creek Lake in western Maryland. This retreat was one in a series that Gottlieb convened every few months. Officially, it was a coming-together of two groups: four CIA scientists from the technical services staff, which ran MK-Ultra, and five army scientists from the special operations division of the chemical corps. In reality, these men worked so closely together that they comprised a single unit. They were comrades in search of cosmic secrets. It made sense for them to gather, discuss their projects and exchange ideas in a relaxed environment.

The first 24 hours at the retreat were uneventful. On Thursday evening, the group gathered for dinner and then settled back for a round of drinks. Lashbrook, Gottlieb’s deputy, produced a bottle of Cointreau and poured glasses for the company. Several, including Olson, drank heartily. After 20 minutes, Gottlieb asked if anyone was feeling odd. Several said they were. Gottlieb then told them their drinks had been spiked with LSD.

The news was not well received. Even in their altered state, the subjects could understand what had been done to them. Olson was especially upset. According to his son Eric, he became “quite agitated and was having a serious confusion with separating reality from fantasy”. Soon, though, he and the others were carried away into a hallucinatory world. Gottlieb later reported that they were “boisterous and laughing … unable to continue the meeting or engage in sensible conversations”. The next morning, they were in only slightly better shape. The meeting broke up. Olson headed back to Frederick. By the time he arrived, he was a changed man.

The next morning, 23 November, Olson showed up early at Fort Detrick. His boss, Vincent Ruwet, arrived soon after. Neither were in good shape. More than four days had passed since they had been given LSD without their knowledge. Ruwet later called it “the most frightening experience I have ever had or hope to have”.

Olson began pouring out his doubts and fears. “He appeared to be agitated, and asked me if I should fire him or he should quit,” Ruwet later recalled. Ruwet tried to calm him, assuring him that his work was excellent, and recognised as such. Slowly, Olson was persuaded that resignation was too extreme a reaction.

By this time MK-Ultra had been under way for seven months. It was one of the government’s deepest secrets, guarded by security that was, as Olson had been told when he joined the special operations division, “tighter than tight”. Barely two dozen men knew its true nature. Nine had been at Deep Creek Lake. Several of those had been surreptitiously dosed with LSD. Now one of them seemed out of control. This was no light matter for men who believed that the success or failure of MK-Ultra might determine the fate of the US, and all humanity.

Olson had spent 10 years at Fort Detrick and knew most, if not all, of the special operation division’s secrets. He had repeatedly visited Germany and brought home pictures from Heidelberg and Berlin, where the US military maintained clandestine interrogation centres. He was one of several special operations division scientists who were in France on 16 August 1951, when an entire French village, Pont-Saint-Esprit, was mysteriously seized by mass hysteria and violent delirium that afflicted more than 200 residents and caused several deaths; the cause was later determined to have been poisoning by ergot, the fungus from which LSD was derived. Perhaps most threatening of all, if US forces did indeed use biological weapons during the Korean war – for which there is circumstantial evidence but no proof – Olson would have known. The prospect that he might reveal any of what he had seen or done was terrifying.

“He was very, very open and not scared to say what he thought,” Olson’s friend and colleague Norman Cournoyer later recalled. “He did not give a damn. Frank Olson pulled no punches at any time … That’s what they were scared of, I am sure.”

Olson’s doubts deepened. In spring 1953, he visited the top-secret Microbiological Research Establishment at Porton Down in Wiltshire, where government scientists were studying the effects of sarin and other nerve gases. On 6 May, a volunteer subject, a 20-year-old soldier, was dosed with sarin there, began foaming at the mouth, collapsed into convulsions, and died an hour later. Afterward, Olson spoke about his discomfort with a psychiatrist who helped direct the research, William Sargant.

A month later, Olson was back in Germany. On that trip, according to a later reconstruction of his travels, Olson “visited a CIA safe house near Stuttgart [where] he saw men dying, often in agony, from the weapons he had made.” After stops in Scandinavia and Paris, he returned to Britain and visited Sargant again. Immediately after their meeting, Sargant wrote a report saying that Olson was “deeply disturbed over what he had seen in CIA safe houses in Germany” and “displayed symptoms of not wanting to keep secret what he had witnessed”. He sent his report to his superiors with the understanding that they would forward it to the CIA. Sargant said later: “There were common interests to protect.”

Five days after being dosed with LSD, Olson was still disoriented. Ruwet, his boss at the special operations division, called Gottlieb to report this. Gottlieb asked him to bring Olson in for a chat. At their meeting, Gottlieb later testified, Olson seemed “confused in certain areas of his thinking”. He made a quick decision: Olson must be taken to New York City and delivered to the physician most intimately tied to MK-Ultra – Harold Abramson.

Alice Olson was told that Abramson was chosen because her husband “had to see a physician who had equal security clearance so he could talk freely”.

That was partly true. Abramson was not a psychiatrist, but he was an MK-Ultra initiate. Gottlieb knew that Abramson’s first loyalty was to MK-Ultra – or, as he would have put it, to the security of the US. That made him the ideal person to probe Olson’s inner mind. Olson told Abramson that ever since the Deep Creek Lake retreat, he had been unable to work well. He could not concentrate and forgot how to spell. He could not sleep. Abramson sought to reassure Olson, who seemed to relax afterwards.

A week had passed since Olson was given LSD at Deep Creek Lake. He planned to return to his family for Thanksgiving dinner. The day after seeing Abramson, accompanied by Lashbrook and Ruwet, he boarded a flight to Washington. An MK-Ultra colleague was waiting when they landed. Ruwet and Olson got into his car for the drive to Frederick. Soon after they set off, Olson’s mood changed. He asked that the car be stopped. Olson turned to Ruwet and announced that he felt “ashamed to meet his wife and family” because he was “so mixed up”.

“What do you want me to do?” Ruwet asked.

“Just let me go. Let me go off by myself.”

“I can’t do that.”

“Well then, just turn me over to the police. They’re looking for me anyway.”

Ruwet suggested Olson return to New York for another session with Abramson. Olson agreed, so they took a taxi to Abramson’s weekend home on Long Island. Abramson spent about an hour with Olson, followed by 20 minutes with Lashbrook.

The next morning, Abramson, Lashbrook and Olson drove back to Manhattan. During a session at his Fifty-Eighth Street office, Abramson persuaded Olson that he should agree to be hospitalised as a voluntary patient at a Maryland sanatorium. Olson and Lashbrook left, registered at the Statler Hotel, and were given room 1018A.

Over dinner at the Statler, Olson told Lashbrook that he was looking forward to his hospitalisation. He mused about books he would read. Lashbrook later said he was “almost the Dr Olson I knew before the experiment”. The two returned to their room. Olson washed his socks in the sink, watched TV for a while and lay down to sleep.

At 2.25am, he went out the window.

Every secret service needs officers who specialise in cleaning up messes. In the CIA of the 1950s, those officers worked for Sheffield Edwards at the Office of Security. The cover-up he directed in the hours and days after Frank Olson died was a model of brisk efficiency.

With the calm self-assurance for which he was known at the CIA, Edwards announced how the cover-up would unfold. First, the New York police would be persuaded not to investigate, and to cooperate in misleading the press. Second, a fake career – a “legend” – would be constructed for Lashbrook, who, as the sole witness, would be questioned by investigators and could under no circumstances be recognised as working for the CIA, much less MK-Ultra. Third, the Olson family would have to be informed, placated and kept cooperative.

While Alice, at home in Maryland, was being informed of her husband’s death, Lashbrook was welcoming the CIA cavalry to room 1018A at the Statler in New York. It took the form of a single officer. In internal reports, he is called “Agent James McC”. Later, he was identified as James McCord, who would go on to become a footnote to US political history as one of the Watergate burglars. McCord had previously been an FBI agent specialising in counterintelligence. Making police investigations evaporate was one of his specialities.

As soon as Edwards called McCord before dawn on 28 November, he swung into action. He took the first morning plane to New York and arrived at the Statler about 8am. He spent an hour questioning Lashbrook and then, at about 9.30am, advised him to go to the morgue at Bellevue hospital, as the police had requested, to identify Olson’s body. While he was away, McCord minutely searched room 1018A and nearby rooms.

Shortly after noon, Lashbrook returned to the Statler, where McCord was waiting. Over the next few hours, Lashbrook made a series of telephone calls. One was to Gottlieb. When he hung up, he told McCord that Gottlieb had instructed him to go to Abramson’s office, pick up a report and take it back to Washington by hand. Lashbrook carried Abramson’s report to Washington on the midnight train. CIA security officers in New York took care of the remaining details. The investigating police detective concluded that Olson had died from multiple fractures “subsequent upon a jump or fall”. That became the official narrative.

Despite the successful cover-up, Olson’s death was a near-disaster for the CIA. It came close to threatening the very existence of MK-Ultra.

Gottlieb and his bosses at the CIA might have taken this as a moment for reflection. In light of this death, they could have reasoned, further experiments with psychoactive drugs should be stopped, at least on unwitting subjects. Instead, they proceeded as if Olson’s death had never happened.

On 12 June 1975, the Washington Post ran a story about an army scientist who had been drugged with LSD by the CIA, reacted badly and jumped out of the window of a New York hotel. This story, with its lurid mix of drugs, death and the CIA, proved irresistible. For the next several days, reporters barraged the CIA with demands to know more. The Olson family called a press conference in the family’s back yard. Alice read a statement saying that the family had decided to “file a lawsuit against the CIA, perhaps within two weeks, asking several million dollars in damages”. She insisted that her husband had “not acted irrational or sick” during the last days of his life, but was “very melancholy” and “said he was going to leave his job”.

“Since 1953, we have struggled to understand Frank Olson’s death as an inexplicable ‘suicide,’” she said. “The true nature of his death was concealed for 22 years.”

Besides announcing plans to sue the CIA, the Olson family also asked the New York police department to open a new investigation. The Manhattan district attorney, Robert Morgenthau, replied immediately, promising that his office would begin “looking into certain aspects” of the case.

Alarm bells went off at the White House after the Olson family announced its plan to sue the CIA. A lawsuit, if allowed to proceed, would give the family, as well as homicide detectives in New York, a tool they could use to force disclosure of deep secrets. President Ford’s chief of staff, Donald Rumsfeld, and his deputy, Dick Cheney, recognised the danger. Cheney warned Rumsfeld in a memo that a lawsuit might force the CIA “to disclose highly classified national security information”. To head off this disaster, he recommended that Ford make a public “expression of regret” and “express a willingness to meet personally with Mrs Olson and her children”.

Ford took his aides’ advice. He invited Alice and her three adult children to the White House. On 21 July 1975, they met in the Oval Office. It was a unique historical moment: the only time an American president has ever summoned the family of a CIA officer who died violently and apologised on behalf of the US government. Later, they met with CIA director William Colby at the agency’s HQ in Langley, Virginia. He apologised for what he called a “terrible thing” that “should never have happened”.

“Some of our people were out of control in those days,” Colby said. “They went too far. There were problems of supervision and administration.”

White House lawyers offered the Olson family $750,000 in exchange for dropping its legal claims. After some hesitation, the family accepted. Congress passed a special bill approving the payment. And that would have closed the case if Frank Olson had remained quiet in his grave.

At Olson’s funeral, Gottlieb had told grieving relatives that if they ever had questions about “what happened”, he would be happy to answer them. More than two decades later, at the end of 1984, they decided to accept his offer and called to arrange an appointment. When Alice, Eric and Nils Olson appeared at his door, his first reaction was relief.

“I’m so happy you don’t have a weapon,” Gottlieb said. “I had a dream last night that you all arrived at this door and shot me.”

Eric was taken aback. Later, he came to marvel at what he saw as Gottlieb’s manipulative power. “Before we even got through the door, we were apologising to him and reassuring him,” he said. “It was a brilliant and sophisticated way of turning the whole thing around.”

He began by telling the family what had happened at Deep Creek Lake on 19 November 1953. Olson and others were given LSD, he said, as part of an experiment to see “what would happen if a scientist were taken prisoner and drugged – would he divulge secret research and information?” Then he began musing about Olson. “Your father and I were very much alike,” he told Eric. “We both got into this because of patriotic feeling. But we both went a little too far, and we did things that we probably should not have done.”

That was as close to confession as Gottlieb ever came. He would not say what aspects of MK-Ultra went “a little too far”, or what he and Olson did that they “probably should not have done”. Nor would he entertain questions about inconsistencies in the story of Olson’s death. When Eric pressed him, he reacted sharply.

As the family were rising to leave, Gottlieb pulled Eric aside. “You are obviously very troubled by your father’s suicide,” he said. “Have you ever considered getting into a therapy group for people whose parents have committed suicide?” Eric did not follow that suggestion, but it left a deep impression on him. For years, he had been confused and depressed by the story of his father’s death. Only after meeting Gottlieb, however, did he resolve to bring his search for truth to the centre of his life.

“I didn’t have the confidence then in my scepticism to ignore his ploys, but when he made that therapy group suggestion – that was the moment when he overplayed his hand,” he said. “At that moment, I understood how much Gottlieb had a stake in defusing me. And it was also at that moment that the determination to show that he had played a role in murdering my father was born.”

Eric Olson waited another decade – until after his mother died – before taking his next step: arranging to exhume his father’s body. Several reporters stood near him as a backhoe clawed through the earth at Linden Hills cemetery in Frederick, Maryland, on 2 June 1994.

A forensic pathologist, James Starrs of George Washington University Law School, spent a month studying Olson’s body. When he was finished, he called a news conference. His tests for toxins in the body, he reported, had turned up nothing. The wound pattern, however, was curious. Starrs had found no glass shards on the victim’s head or neck, as might be expected if he had dived through a window. Most intriguingly, although Olson had reportedly landed on his back, the skull above his left eye was disfigured.

“I would venture to say that this hematoma is singular evidence of the possibility that Dr Olson was struck a stunning blow to the head by some person or instrument prior to his exiting through the window of room 1018A,” Starrs concluded. Later he was more emphatic: “I think Frank Olson was intentionally, deliberately, with malice aforethought, thrown out of that window.”

Besides conducting the autopsy, Starrs interviewed people connected to the case. One was Gottlieb. The two men met on a Sunday morning at Gottlieb’s home in Virginia. Starrs later wrote that it was “the most perplexing of all the interviews I conducted”.

Starr wrote: “I was emboldened to ask how he could so recklessly and cavalierly have jeopardised the lives of so many of his own men by the Deep Creek Lodge experiment with LSD. ‘Professor,’ he said without mincing a word, ‘you just do not understand. I had the security of this country in my hands.’ He did not say more, nor need he have done so. Nor did I, dumbfounded, offer a rejoinder. The means-end message was pellucidly clear. Risking the lives of the unwitting victims of the Deep Creek experiment was simply the necessary means to a greater good, the protection of the national security.”

Because Olson’s survivors had signed away their right to legal relief when they accepted their $750,000 compensation payment in 1975, they could not sue the CIA. Although Starr’s report and other discoveries sharpened Eric’s already powerful suspicion that foul play lay behind his father’s death, he could not prove it. Recognising that painful fact, he and his brother decided that it was finally time to reinter their father’s body. On 8 August 2002, the day before the reburial, he called reporters to his home and announced that he had reached a new conclusion about what had happened to his father.

“The death of Frank Olson on 28 November 1953 was a murder, not a suicide,” he declared. “This is not an LSD drug-experiment story, as it was represented in 1975. This is a biological warfare story. Frank Olson did not die because he was an experimental guinea pig who experienced a ‘bad trip’. He died because of concern that he would divulge information concerning a highly classified CIA interrogation program in the early 1950s, and concerning the use of biological weapons by the United States in the Korean War.”

In 2017, Stephen Saracco, a retired New York assistant district attorney who had investigated the Olson case and remained interested in it, made his first visit to the hotel room where Olson spent his final night. Looking around the room, Saracco said, raised the question of how Olson could have done it.

“If this would have been a suicide, it would have been very difficult to accomplish,” Saracco concluded. “There was motive to kill him. He knew the deepest, darkest secrets of the cold war. Would the American government kill an American citizen who was a scientist, who was working for the CIA and the army, if they thought he was a security risk? There are people who say: ‘Definitely.’”

There are lots of unresolved questions about where Epstein got his millions, and it looks like he may have been a CIA/ Mossad asset for gaining kompromat on the rich and powerful.
 

Sea Turtle

Slow and steady wins the race
Messages
5,645
Reaction score
3,488
Do you guys think that you should be able to vote if you are on Government Assistance programs like welfare, food stamps, etc?
 

IrishLax

Something Witty
Staff member
Messages
37,546
Reaction score
29,005
Do you guys think that you should be able to vote if you are on Government Assistance programs like welfare, food stamps, etc?

Is this a serious question? Are you less of an American citizen if you're poor?
 

Sea Turtle

Slow and steady wins the race
Messages
5,645
Reaction score
3,488
Is this a serious question? Are you less of an American citizen if you're poor?

I have been talking with a friend about it. He goes even further stating that James Madison had it right and that only those who own property should vote. Those with a vested interest in the country, state and county.

Madison did have a point and I think he saw an Atlas Shrugged scenario in the future but I'm not so sure I would go that far. I do have an issue with the fact that people who do not have a vested interest in the country AND who are dependent on the government get to vote for those who will simply promise them more from tax payers.
 

Legacy

New member
Messages
7,871
Reaction score
321
Madison's property included slaves, a wife who could not vote, lived in a new nation was emerging from a colony, lived in a rural economy and average life expectancy was forty.

If only property-owners should enjoy the full rights, benefits and obligations of a democracy, then only they should serve in the military as well as be the sole citizens that are taxed. The average age of a first time homeowner is thirty-two.

There is that irritating principle that triggered our Revolution against a monarchy - taxation without representation. That has never meant representation based on taxation. We'll probably always have those who admire the type of government that ruled our nation prior to the Revolution.
 
Last edited:

Bishop2b5

SEC Exchange Student
Messages
8,941
Reaction score
6,164
Is this a serious question? Are you less of an American citizen if you're poor?

No, you're not less of a citizen if you're poor. The problem is that the poor will overwhelmingly vote for whoever promises to increase or at least continue providing them with various forms of welfare in exchange for their vote. It's like letting your kids vote on how much their allowance should be.

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the people discover they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that democracy always collapses over a loose fiscal policy--to be followed by a dictatorship.” ― Alexander Fraser Tytler Woodhouselee

“When the people find that they can vote themselves money that will herald the end of the republic.” ― Benjamin Franklin
 

Sea Turtle

Slow and steady wins the race
Messages
5,645
Reaction score
3,488
Madison's property included slaves, a wife who could not vote, lived in a new nation was emerging from a colony, lived in a rural economy and average life expectancy was forty.

If only property-owners should enjoy the full rights, benefits and obligations of a democracy, then only they should serve in the military as well as be the sole citizens that are taxed. The average age of a first time homeowner is thirty-two.

There is that irritating principle that triggered our Revolution against a monarchy - taxation without representation. That has never meant representation based on taxation. We'll probably always have those who admire the type of government that ruled our nation prior to the Revolution.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. You talk about the taxes but from what I have read recently, only half the country is really paying taxes now anyway.

Of course his wife couldn't vote. You think women should vote? Next thing, you'll be wanting them to drive ;)
 
Top