Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

NDgradstudent

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So right off the bat, we can all agree that "Christian view of marriage" is not something that should influence state policy, right? Good. Moving on.

If the people want it to, of course it should. Should the Christian view of infanticide -as opposed to the Greek or utilitarian- affect state policy? It does, at present.

There's a long line of cases, most famously Loving, holding that marriage is a fundamental right. No way a state's decision to stop issuing marriage licenses would survive a challenge.

Where in those cases is there a requirement for a state to license marriages as such?

The language is not ambiguous. The lesson of the civil war was that for all their wisdom, our founding fathers had not created a perfect union. They had used the lofty language of equality while leaving a substantial portion of the population subservient to others. In 1865, Congress had the wisdom to know that just like the framers had not foreseen the change in attitudes towards blacks, they might not foresee other developments. So instead of writing a narrow law designed to remedy the immediate issues, they wrote an expansive one that could evolve with our country. That's exactly what happened on Friday.

That theory certainly gives limitless power to courts to decide any controversial question. If this is correct, it would make more sense to elect the Court.

And a minority of states adopting some policy constitutes enough "evolution"?

When the ruling class wants something, they get it. That's all this is.

This is factually false (not "most"), but unlike in the case of gay marriage, there's a cognizable "harm" involved in polyamory. As a religious freedom person, I'm surprised you don't support it (or are you only in favor of the free expression of your religion?)

I am obviously not counting states ordered by a lower federal court to redefine marriage, only states where internal institutions (their legislature/courts) did so. That leaves 33 states that did not choose to do so.

What is the harm in three men getting married?
 

L-cart ND-ana

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What is the harm in three men getting married?

This can also go for two men but, I read a stat that stated......... men that have sex with men make up only about 2% of the population but make up 75% of the HIV cases in America. Sure it has nothing to with marriage because anyone can just have sex (another debate for another day, ultra conservatives), but the govt legalizing and celebrating this harmful lifestyle goes against why laws are put in place..... to protect people from others and from thierselves. I'm also curious why we don't hear this stat more when this is discussed. The only thing anyone is doing about it is passing out condoms and trying educate gay men on HIV........ If you want an easy way to eliminate 75% of HIV cases going further? I'm not at all saying eliminate men on men sex (for the record it would not affect me), but I thought that stat was eye opening.
 

woolybug25

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This can also go for two men but, I read a stat that stated......... men that have sex with men make up only about 2% of the population but make up 75% of the HIV cases in America. Sure it has nothing to with marriage because anyone can just have sex (another debate for another day, ultra conservatives), but the govt legalizing and celebrating this harmful lifestyle goes against why laws are put in place..... to protect people from others and from thierselves. I'm also curious why we don't hear this stat more when this is discussed. The only thing anyone is doing about it is passing out condoms and trying educate gay men on HIV........ If you want an easy way to eliminate 75% of HIV cases going further? I'm not at all saying eliminate men on men sex (for the record it would not affect me), but I thought that stat was eye opening.

Wow... So you wrote that entire thing and never did it dawn on you how offensive it was?

Maybe they should put all of the gheys on an island and burn 'em...
 

NDohio

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Did you read what you wrote? "Do you think we are gaining a service by having an outside party provide a service"? Your gain was the team taking care of a field that you otherwise would have had to care for. That is a service gained.

Your tax break wasn't intended for the purpose of providing a baseball field to the local little league and it doesn't matter if you didn't have another use for it. If the church isn't using it for church activities, then they shouldn't get a tax break on it. The outcome of the team playing elsewhere and incurring cost is of no interest to me, and if it is to your community, then that is their decision. Not your churches. Your community shouldn't have to subsidize a random baseball team because a church wants their field mowed by them.

Mow your own dang grass. It's not the team playing on your field that has them threatening you, it's getting a service in return
.


I wish it would have been that easy. Us taking the maintenance back was going to be much cheaper than having to pave the area for parking.

One of the core values of a church is being an outreach to the community. That's what we were trying to be with that part of our land. I think it was more of a benefit to the community - and more in line with our core values - than a parking lot.

We are getting off topic here - sorry.
 

woolybug25

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I wish it would have been that easy. Us taking the maintenance back was going to be much cheaper than having to pave the area for parking.

One of the core values of a church is being an outreach to the community. That's what we were trying to be with that part of our land. I think it was more of a benefit to the community - and more in line with our core values - than a parking lot.

We are getting off topic here - sorry.

I think it's on topic. Hell, it's a better topic than banning gays.

My point is that the church's tax except status does not reach to the point of the church receiving benefits from non core activities. The exception is to maintain the church's ability to practice their faith without undue hardship. Fielding non church baseball games in return for maintenance is outside of that scope.

I would feel the same way if your church wanted to buy a piece of land to build a business park. Sure, the jobs and revenue would be great for the community, but the church doesn't get to skate on the property taxes.

Your church may have a core belief of helping your community, but your community shouldn't have to subsidize that help.
 
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NDohio

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I think it's on topic. Hell, it's a better topic than banning gays.

My point is that the church's tax except status does not reach to the point of the church receiving benefits from non core activities. The exception is to maintain the church's ability to practice their faith without undue hardship. Fielding non church baseball games in return for maintenance is outside of that scope.

So once we offered to take back the maintenance portion, would you have been OK with that? The county was not.

I would feel the same way if your church wanted to buy a piece of land to build a business park. Sure, the jobs and revenue would be great for the community, but the church doesn't get to skate on the property taxes.

I agree completely

Your church may have a core belief of helping your community, but your community shouldn't have to subsidize that help.

See above.
 

woolybug25

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So once we offered to take back the maintenance portion, would you have been OK with that? The county was not.

Yeah. I don't see any problem with letting the community use your park as long as they don't pay you for the use. Heck, they can even pay for the use as long if the church wanted to pay taxes on that piece of their land.

If you offered to not get the maintenance, what was their reasoning for revoking your tax exempt status? Do those teams currently play (and pay) on city fields? If they threatened to pull the tax exempt status simply because the church offered to provide a service they normally charge for, then you should seek an attorney.
 

NDohio

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Yeah. I don't see any problem with letting the community use your park as long as they don't pay you for the use. Heck, they can even pay for the use as long if the church wanted to pay taxes on that piece of their land.

If you offered to not get the maintenance, what was their reasoning for revoking your tax exempt status? Do those teams currently play (and pay) on city fields? If they threatened to pull the tax exempt status simply because the church offered to provide a service they normally charge for, then you should seek an attorney.

Yeah - we did make that offer. The county's reasoning kept coming back to it not being a "religious activity". We did have an attorney work with us, but we didn't feel like it was prudent for us to run up too big of an attorney bill so we backed off the fight.

The team ended up brokering a deal with a local business that had some land behind their facility. They built their own field and it worked out for them.

Edit: Also, we were not the only church that was having this issue. Churches in that county that had multi-purpose buildings were having issues as well. Many contemporary churches have a room that is used for Worship on Sunday AM and used for many other activities during the week. The tax auditor was having all churches give a breakdown of the amount of time those rooms were used for the different activities.
 
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Emcee77

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The 14th Amendment only binds governments, not private institutions, and it only takes one 'violation' to set up a fight. It common to stage a crime in order to have standing to sue the government (this is what happened in the Lawrence case). The IRS can change the rule to forbid any heretofore tax-exempt institution with a policy contrary to "fundamental national public policy" from continuing to receive its tax exemption. Most conservatives do not see same-sex marriage as a "fundamental national public policy," because it has only actually been approved democratically in 11 states and only approved at all in 17 states. We know that liberals feel otherwise, and pretty emphatically. The IRS is not run by conservatives, and in any case will often not be run by conservatives.

Well, I don't know, I suppose I'm a liberal, but I don't see SSM as a "fundamental national public policy" in the same way that ending racial discrimination was. SSM is an important 14th Amendment liberty issue, but institutionalized racial discrimination was actually preventing black people from fully participating in our democracy. In other words, institutionalized racial discrimination threatened our very identity as a democracy. SSM is not on that level. There are some important parallels, but historically and legally there are important differences too.

Don't get me wrong, I am a huge supporter of SSM, but it's important to keep things in perspective or you lose credibility, and I think it's more important than ever for liberals to do that in the wake of this decision.

It is true that neither Notre Dame nor other Catholic schools (whether universities or secondary/elementary schools) refuse to admit gay students. They do not refuse to admit students in a same-sex relationship. Many schools (not ND) do refuse to hire teachers engaged in such a relationship or attempt to fire them after learning that they are in such a relationship. They all refuse to allow their chapels to be used for a same-sex wedding. You might think that the Basilica of the Sacred Heart is 'safe,' as a 'church,' but what about the many other chapels on campus, such as in the dorms?

Does ND allow the Basilica or other chapels to be used for any non-Catholic weddings? Same-sex couples should have the right to use our facilities on the same terms as anyone else who wants to have a non-Catholic ceremony.

Whatever precipitates this, there is no question that an IRS action taking away tax-exemptions from any school that formally opposes sodomy or refuses to use some part of its campus for a same-sex wedding is wholly legal given the current law.

Is that true? I'm not well-versed in how the tax exemption works, but if you are basing that conclusion on the Bob Jones case, that case is distinguishable. Holding that states can't offer marriage to hetero couples but not to same-sex couples is a far cry from holding that SSM is a fundamental national public policy that outweighs sincere religious beliefs. We just aren't there.

So what about the politics of the issue? There are so many Catholic schools (and other Christian schools with the same teaching) that it would be hard to imagine the IRS denying them tax-exempt status at present. But remember that the country is rapidly secularizing, and secular people are less likely to support to religious exemptions of any sort. The only ways to avoid it are for Congress to abolish the corporate income tax or change the enabling statute to forbid the IRS from denying tax-exemptions to these groups.

Right, no question that politically it would be impossible to take away tax exemptions for religious schools right now. Hypothetically, could we get there? I guess so. But right now we are nowhere close.

It's an interesting question though. I read this article about it last night:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/u...f-gay-marriage-ruling-on-tax-status.html?_r=0

Some heavy hitters in the world of constitutional scholarship interviewed in that piece.
 

GoIrish41

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I'm not sure I fully understand why churches and religious schools receive tax exemptions in the first place. Can anyone enlighten me on why?

When I was a young editor at the daily newspaper in Hampton Roads, Va., I worked in Portsmouth, VA. You could not swing a stick in that town without hitting a church, and its tax base was greatly diminished because so much of the city's land was tax exempt. Between government owned land -- the Navy shipyards are also located there. I grew up around a bunch of towns that had a crazy number of churches and never really gave any thought until I got older about the implications to a town's finances of having so many. Any insight that anyone can give will be appreciated.
 

notredomer23

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Churches are tax exempt under the principle that there is no surer way to destroy the free exercise of religion than to tax it.

In its 1970 opinion in Walz vs. Tax Commission of the City of New York, the high court stated that a tax exemption for churches "creates only a minimal and remote involvement between church and state and far less than taxation of churches. [An exemption] restricts the fiscal relationship between church and state, and tends to complement and reinforce the desired separation insulating each from the other." The Supreme Court also said that "the power to tax involves the power to destroy." Taxing churches breaks down the healthy separation of church and state and leads to the destruction of the free exercise of religion.

Why don't churches pay taxes? - LA Times
 

Rack Em

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It's an interesting question though. I read this article about it last night:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/u...f-gay-marriage-ruling-on-tax-status.html?_r=0

Some heavy hitters in the world of constitutional scholarship interviewed in that piece.

Damn you weren't kidding. That was loaded with Con scholars.

For any fellow law nerds, read up on Rick Garnett. Dude is a straight up boss. I met him after an event in law school. He's a really smart guy and very dedicated to the University. Right or Left, we should all be proud that he's there.
 

Ndaccountant

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339cb7482c0e1aa33a31e1aca37b0908.jpg
 
C

Cackalacky

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10 Commandments statue must be removed from state Capitol, Oklahoma Supreme Court rules | Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com


This country is turning into a bunch of pussies. I guess within the next 5 years the American Flag will be gone too. SMH

It should not have been there in the first place lol. I can't seem to grasp how people do not understand that simple concept. If you will allow the 10 Commandments then you must BY DEFAULT allow ALL other statues of other religions without discrimination. This includes Muslim, Hindi, and Satanic statues.

If you are gonna disperse religious documents at public schools, others can do the same.
 

Emcee77

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It should not have been there in the first place lol. I can't seem to grasp how people do not understand that simple concept. If you will allow the 10 Commandments then you must BY DEFAULT allow ALL other statues of other religions without discrimination. This includes Muslim, Hindi, and Satanic statues.

If you are gonna disperse religious documents at public schools, others can do the same.

Well, not exactly, not under the U.S. Constitution. The Supreme Court let stand a statue of the Ten Commandments on the grounds of the Texas State Capitol in 2005.

The Oklahoma case is based on a section of the state constitution that bans any public support--even indirect--of religion.

OSCN Found Document:pRESCOTT v. OKLAHOMA CAPITOL PRESERVATION COMMISSION

This doesn't really have anything to do with anybody outside of Oklahoma.
 

IrishJayhawk

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It should not have been there in the first place lol. I can't seem to grasp how people do not understand that simple concept. If you will allow the 10 Commandments then you must BY DEFAULT allow ALL other statues of other religions without discrimination. This includes Muslim, Hindi, and Satanic statues.

If you are gonna disperse religious documents at public schools, others can do the same.

Read the comments. They're positively unhinged.
 
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Cackalacky

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Well, not exactly, not under the U.S. Constitution. The Supreme Court let stand a statue of the Ten Commandments on the grounds of the Texas State Capitol in 2005.

The Oklahoma case is based on a section of the state constitution that bans any public support--even indirect--of religion.

OSCN Found Document:pRESCOTT v. OKLAHOMA CAPITOL PRESERVATION COMMISSION

This doesn't really have anything to do with anybody outside of Oklahoma.
I know the SCOTUS ruling which is why ALL religious statuary is allowed now. But my point is that with that ruling comes the consequences. Its quite possible that Oklahoma, who already has cases out from other religious groups wanting to put statues up that they are choosing to ignore the SCOTUS ruling to prevent having to deal with the unintended consequences of displaying ALL religious iconography on state grounds.

My final point being is that the SCOTUS ruling is a bad one IMO and religious iconography has no business or legal reason for being on state grounds.
 
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