Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
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    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

Whiskeyjack

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The Federalist's Yuval Levin just published an article titled "The Church and the Left":

Indiana’s Religious Freedom Restoration Act, like the federal one and those of other states, articulates its purpose in terms of the Free Exercise clause of the First Amendment (see especially sections 8, 9, and 10 of the statute). And one of the questions raised by the law is what sort of activity, particularly on the part of a business rather than an individual, in fact constitutes an exercise of religion. But the fanaticism that has characterized much of the Left’s response to Indiana’s law over the past week has highlighted an element of the threat to religious liberty today that comes closer to the other protection of religious liberty in the First Amendment—the prohibition against religious establishment, rather than the protection of the free exercise of religion.

The case against the establishment of religion was particularly important to the author of the First Amendment, James Madison. Madison’s writing and activism on the question of religious liberty in Virginia had always emphasized the establishment question above all—an emphasis that had not always been part of the Anglo-American understanding of religious toleration, since Britain (like most of the American colonies and, at first, the states) had an established church.

Madison’s case against an established church, perhaps most notably in his 1785 “Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments,” was rooted in a core principle of religious liberty that is particularly important to remember in the kinds of debates we have seen in the last few years: That religious freedom is not a freedom to do what you want, but a freedom to do what you must. It’s not a freedom from constraint, but a recognition of a constraint higher than even the law and therefore prior to it and deserving of some leeway from legal obligations when reasonably possible. (And remember, Indiana’s law says only that when such freedom is burdened, it should be clear to a judge that it was so for a compelling reason and that no less burdensome alternative was available.) Madison put the point this way:

It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to Him. This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society.

It is important to note that Madison was making this case not in the context of arguing for permitting the free exercise of religion but rather in the context of arguing against the establishment of any religion by law. His point was that no one ought to be compelled to affirm as true a religious tenet he took to be false and that no one should be compelled to participate in a religious rite that violated his own understanding of his religious obligations. This is not exactly an extension of the traditional Anglo-American case for toleration. It is a Madisonian correction to the Lockean ideal of religious toleration in a society with an established church.

But this is also the essence of the argument that a wedding vendor who wants to remain free to refrain from participating in a same-sex wedding would advance. The question of the definition of marriage is, for many people, a fundamentally religious question. It is, of course, also a civil question in our country. But some religiously orthodox wedding vendors are finding themselves effectively compelled by the civil authorities to affirm an answer to that question that violates their understanding of their religious obligations. They would like to be relieved of that compulsion, but they are being told they can’t be because the larger society’s understanding of the proper answer to the question should overrule the answer prescribed by their religious convictions, and if they want to participate as business owners in the life of the larger society they must give ground.

They are in this sense more like religious believers under compulsion in a society with an established church than like believers denied the freedom to exercise their religion. Liberals are in this respect right to say they’re not trying to kill religious liberty. They’re trying to take it back to something like the form it had in the Anglo-American world when the Anglo-American world had a formal state religion—except now the state religion is supposed to be progressive liberalism.

This is the kind of religious liberty that John Locke lays out in the “Letter Concerning Toleration,” which extended a generous free exercise right to individuals but not to institutions with a religious character that were not houses of worship, because public institutions—indeed the public square as such—were to have a particular religious character. You can have your own beliefs about God and what He demands of you in such a society, and you can have a fair amount of room to live by those as a private individual. You can even have houses of worship where people like you can congregate and utter various heresies together in peace. But you cannot create other institutions that serve as embodiments of that religion in the society’s broader life. You can say but not do. You will be tolerated, but you will not be sovereign.

This distinction between individual and institutional religious freedom has actually been at the core of a lot of the religious freedom battles we’ve had in the Obama years. It has been more prominent in the HHS-mandate debates, but it’s very much a part of this argument about whether a florist shop or a pizza parlor can be Christian. In a country with a non-Christian state religion that it takes seriously, the answer is basically no. The florist can be Christian as an individual, but his store can’t be, because institutions, unlike individuals, are creatures of the law and our law already has a religion: progressive liberalism.

We who are appalled by the perverse reaction to the Indiana law are not exactly defending the free exercise right; we are in a sense opposing a violation of the prohibition on religious establishment. The point is not that running a flower shop is a way of practicing one’s religion. The point is that, if reasonably possible, people should not be compelled as the price of entry to the public square to honor as true what their understanding of their religious obligations compels them to judge false.

Whether you share in the particular substantive views of progressivism or not, surely you ought to agree that it should not become our state religion.

This is largely what I was driving at yesterday when I posted that there can be no happy ending to the current conflict (which is only going to intensify) unless Progressives understand they are adherents of the state religion, and that they are attempting to drive all heretics (religious dissenters) from the public square.
 

Quinntastic

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Well, what if my conscience tells me that anyone who doesn't believe in evolution, which is backed up by literally millions of years worth of evidence, is a second class citizen whom I should not have to provide goods or services to if my conscience tells me I shouldn't? So basically I am then discriminating against Muslims AND Jews AND Christians. You are telling me there is nothing wrong with that?
 

Whiskeyjack

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Well, what if my conscience tells me that anyone who doesn't believe in evolution, which is backed up by literally millions of years worth of evidence, is a second class citizen whom I should not have to provide goods or services to if my conscience tells me I shouldn't? So basically I am then discriminating against Muslims AND Jews AND Christians. You are telling me there is nothing wrong with that?

First, only fundamentalists reject evolution. Strong majorities of Jews, Muslims and Christians fully accept evolution.

Second, I think you should have your day in court to argue for an exemption. You won't win, since you will not be able to connect your animus towards creationists with a sincere religious belief. But the protection of religious minorities is critically important, so even cranks and bigots should get a fair hearing.
 

phgreek

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I agree with this, but personally I have trouble reconciling two points of view. On one hand, I think something "trivial" shouldn't be such a big deal and people shouldn't refuse to service to anyone... but then I think of things like how some Orthodox Jews refuse to sit next to women on planes because of their religion, and I sure as hell don't think they should be forced to when it clearly violates their beliefs... and that's something that seems quite "trivial" to most people. So, in short, I have a tough time making blanket statements about right vs. wrong, should vs. shouldn't, etc. when it comes to people's beliefs and what is worth "making a stand" over.



I don't know, he was carpenter...

Kidding aside, it's weird because Jesus was "Everybody love everybody".... except he simultaneously wasn't. He took a stand on a number of things, and there are a lot of sermons that are very much "if you live your life this way, it's wrong" with respect to sinful people. What he was about was forgiveness more than blanket acceptance when you look at what was said about the rich/greedy/etc. and heaven.

Would he have baked a cake for a tax collector party?

Head nod...mmhmmmmm.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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The whole notion that one is participating in a wedding by baking a cake is just silly.

People should just stop being so shitty and self righteous to one another. If you bake cakes for a living and a a customer comes into the store and needs a cake ... bake them a cake. It is really just that simple. Nobody should shit all over people's sexuality, or religion, or race, or anything else. Stop the madness alread. From my upbringing in the church and reading of scriptures, I'm positive that Jesus would have baked the cake so stop trying to use his teachings as a basis to support your "right" to be a prick to other human beings. Fuck these people. I hope nobody ever buys a cake from them again. That about sums up my feelings on this whole topic. Basic human decency trumps all!

If I didn't know you were of age to be a father with children, I'd think you were a starry eyed 19 year old college freshman in a sociology class.

No one is "shitting" on anything except government coercion in a marketplace, which is madness.

When did we as a society become such whining babies? Going back to what Black Irish said (and I noted a few days ago): you don't want to bake me a cake because of reason "XYZ"? Cool. I'll take my business elsewhere, and if you turn away enough people like me you won't be in business much longer. Thanks and good day.
 

Bishop2b5

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If I didn't know you were of age to be a father with children, I'd think you were a starry eyed 19 year old college freshman in a sociology class.

No one is "shitting" on anything except government coercion in a marketplace, which is madness.

When did we as a society become such whining babies? Going back to what Black Irish said (and I noted a few days ago): you don't want to bake me a cake because of reason "XYZ"? Cool. I'll take my business elsewhere, and if you turn away enough people like me you won't be in business much longer. Thanks and good day.

Pretty much exactly what I was saying a week or so ago about how anybody who owns a business should probably be allowed to hire or serve or sell to (or not) anybody they wanted to. If you don't want to hire or do business with certain people, that's your choice. If you can find enough good employees or customers from the limited pool of people you do want to hire or serve, good for you. If you can't, you'll suffer the consequences and go under. Let the market support or not support your choices.
 

GoIrish41

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If I didn't know you were of age to be a father with children, I'd think you were a starry eyed 19 year old college freshman in a sociology class.

No one is "shitting" on anything except government coercion in a marketplace, which is madness.

When did we as a society become such whining babies? Going back to what Black Irish said (and I noted a few days ago): you don't want to bake me a cake because of reason "XYZ"? Cool. I'll take my business elsewhere, and if you turn away enough people like me you won't be in business much longer. Thanks and good day.

I'm 50 years old and have four children between 21 and 14 years old. I've watched people treat each other like second-class citizens my whole life -- racists, homophobes, anti-government soldier haters, zealots of all stripes, macho douchebags, bullies, and all manner of other hate-filled people content to be among the favored and determined to remain there. We are all in this world together, and hate gets us nowhere. I don't want my kids to see the things that I've seen. I want to believe that we can get beyond that. I want the world to be better for them than it was for me and for all of the people who have been marked as rejects in our society.

It doesn't have to be this way. Acceptance is easier than distain. Just because there aren't enough gay people to overcome the tyranny of the majoriity, doesn't mean that we have to design laws to allow people to treat them differently. We could boycott these businesses ... sure we could ... and under the right conditions we might even be able to drive the bigots out of business. Or, we could stand up as a nation and demand that these types of dispicable behaviors are consigned to history. We could reaffirm that after all these long years of needless, cruel struggle that we still believe the self-evident truth that ALL men are created equal. Or we could allow the perceptions of a few selfish, self-righteous pricks ensure that we remain stuck in the 19th Century forever. Are our only choices when we see these hateful behaviors really to suck it up or find another place to buy a fucking cake? But, alas, this isn't about cake, is it?
 
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Whiskeyjack

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Acceptance is easier than distain. Just because there aren't enough gay people to overcome the tyranny of the majority...

Did you miss the long line of powerful establishment figures jumping on the outrage train over Indiana's RFRA? Wal-Mart, Apple, SalesForce, Hilary Clinton, etc*. Gays were a despised minority not too long ago, but that's clearly not the case anymore.

...doesn't mean that we have to design laws to allow people to treat them differently.

Indiana's RFRA is just a thinly-veiled justification for bigoted Christians to discriminate against the LGBT community? How strange then that virtually identical laws have helped Sikhs, Apaches, Muslims and many others defend themselves against government-coerced violation of their sincere religious beliefs.

We could boycott these businesses ... sure we could ... and under the right conditions we might even be able to drive the bigots out of business.

What do you mean "under the right conditions"? In the short time since SSM has been legalized, gay rights activists have targeted and likely destroyed three Christian-owned businesses. And there's surely more to come, including the closure of thousands of churches that will lose their 501(c)(3) status for "preaching hate". How many LGBT-owned businesses are facing a similar fate?

Or, we could stand up as a nation and demand that these types of dispicable behaviors are consigned to history.

So a proprietor who happily serves gay patrons for years but feels like he can't, in good conscience, cater a hypothetical gay wedding is a despicable person? We're talking about rare exemptions granted to preserve the Right of Conscience; not about bringing back Jim Crow. I assume you support the right of conscientious objectors not to be coerced into fighting American wars, right? How is this any different? Other than the fact that you may sympathize with the pacifism of the latter, but you can't (or won't) try to understand the religious objection of the former.

We could reaffirm that after all these long years of needless, cruel struggle that we still believe the self-evident truth that ALL men are created equal.

But unless you're a big fan of Nietzsche, all behaviors are not created equal, which is why there is an irreconcilable conflict between "gay rights" and religious liberty. Religions posit the existence of metaphysical Truth from which they derive ethical codes. Such codes naturally proscribe certain types of sexual behavior as immoral/ not conducive to human flourishing. But the LGBT community primarily defines itself by exactly such proscribed behaviord. So orthodox Jews, Muslims and Christians either have to gut their thousands-year-old doctrines regarding sex and marriage to accommodate the Government Approved Victim Class du jour, or be branded modern day Klansmen.

And it won't stop there. The normalization of polyamorism is next. Those who subscribe to Judeo-Christian ideas about the human person and its purpose in life are clearly bigots who needs to be pushed from the public square.

*How interesting that all of these establishment figures are suddenly beating their chests about "rights" for the LGBT community when it costs them nothing to do so, but they suddenly go silent when it comes to the right of immigrants, Chinese factory workers, etc. One is almost tempted to question their sincerity.
 
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Bishop2b5

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I'm 50 years old and have four children between 21 and 14 years old. I've watched people treat each other like second-class citizens my whole life -- racists, homophobes, anti-government soldier haters, zealots of all stripes, macho douchebags, bullies, and all manner of other hate-filled people content to be among the favored and determined to remain there. We are all in this world together, and hate gets us nowhere. I don't want my kids to see the things that I've seen. I want to believe that we can get beyond that. I want the world to be better for them than it was for me and for all of the people who have been marked as rejects in our society.

It doesn't have to be this way. Acceptance is easier than distain. Just because there aren't enough gay people to overcome the tyranny of the majoriity, doesn't mean that we have to design laws to allow people to treat them differently. We could boycott these businesses ... sure we could ... and under the right conditions we might even be able to drive the bigots out of business. Or, we could stand up as a nation and demand that these types of dispicable behaviors are consigned to history. We could reaffirm that after all these long years of needless, cruel struggle that we still believe the self-evident truth that ALL men are created equal. Or we could allow the perceptions of a few selfish, self-righteous pricks ensure that we remain stuck in the 19th Century forever. Are our only choices when we see these hateful behaviors really to suck it up or find another place to buy a fucking cake? But, alas, this isn't about cake, is it?

None of us want to see anyone mistreated or unfairly discriminated against, but it's not as cut & dried as just accepting anyone and everything, regardless of our religious or moral beliefs. Most of us have deeply held values and views that make certain behaviors and beliefs completely unacceptable to us, and catering to or interacting on a meaningful level with those who practice those behaviors or espouse those beliefs is tacit to supporting them.

Let's say you own a restaurant and banquet center. Should you be forced by law to host certain groups whose beliefs are completely antagonistic and revolting to your own? Would you host a KKK group's Christmas party? How about catering NAMBLA's summer social? Would you feel right serving a group of Nazis? What if your religious beliefs said pornography or homosexuality was immoral? Would you be comfortable hosting the wedding party from a gay wedding or the Adult Film Association's awards banquet? We're not talking about refusing to serve anyone from another religion. We're talking about refusing to host a party for a radical group who chants "Death to <insert your religion here>" and advocates the destruction of your religion. Maybe you have no problem at all with serving Muslims, but would you feel morally opposed to serving a group from Hamas or ISIS? Shouldn't you have the right to not do business with any person or group whose beliefs and behavior totally violate your own morals or religious beliefs?

By law, since I work for a hospital, I have to treat anyone and everyone to the full extent of my ability without exception. I understand the reasons for those laws and as hard as it is sometimes, I agree with them. It's damned disgusting and difficult though to treat child molesters, some asshole who just beat his wife almost to death, a drug dealer, or a drunk driver who just killed a van load of kids.

One of the worst moments of my career was pronouncing a 16-year-old girl and her 19-year-old sister, while listening to the 19-year-old's badly injured husband scream and bawl about his wife of 4 months, and having to go save the drunk SOB who'd just destroyed their lives. If I was in private practice, I'd refuse to accept those people as patients. Their behaviors and beliefs make them morally reprehensible to me and I simply couldn't treat them with a clear conscience.

Does that make me a bigot or someone who discriminates against certain groups? I think it just means I don't condone those people's behavior, beliefs, and morals, and don't want to do anything that even remotely condones or supports them. And I should have that right.
 

Whiskeyjack

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The Atlantic's Conor Freidersdorf just published an article titled "Should Mom-and-Pops that Forgo Gay Weddings Be Destroyed?":

What do white evangelicals, Muslims, Mormons, blacks, conservative Republicans, and immigrants from Africa, South America, and Central America all have in common? They're less likely to support gay marriage than the average Californian. Over the years, I've patronized restaurants owned by members of all those groups. Today, if I went out into Greater Los Angeles and chatted up owners of mom-and-pop restaurants, I'd sooner or later find one who would decline to cater a gay wedding. The owners might be members of Rick Warren's church in Orange County. Or a family of immigrants in Little Ethiopia or on Alvera Street. Or a single black man or woman in Carson or Inglewood or El Segundo.

Should we destroy their livelihoods?

If I recorded audio proving their intent to discriminate against a hypothetical catering client and I gave the audio to you, would you post it on the Internet and encourage the general public to boycott, write nasty reviews, and drive them out of business, causing them to lay off their staff, lose their life savings, and hope for other work? If that fate befell a Mormon father with five kids or a childless Persian couple in their fifties or a Hispanic woman who sunk her nest egg into a pupusa truck, should that, do you think, be considered a victory for the gay-rights movement?

Before this week, I'd have guessed that few people would've considered that a victory for social justice. And I'd have thought that vast majorities see an important distinction between a business turning away gay patrons—which would certainly prompt me to boycott—and declining to cater a gay wedding. I see key distinctions despite wishing everyone would celebrate gay marriage and believing Jesus himself would have no problem with a baker or cook acting as a gay-wedding vendor. A restaurant that turned away all gay patrons would be banning them from a public accommodation every day of their lives. It might unpredictably or regularly affect their ability to meet a business client or dine with coworkers or friends. It would have only the most dubious connection to religious belief.

Whereas declining to cater a gay wedding affects people on one day of their life at most, denies them access to no public accommodation, and would seem to signal discomfort with the institution of same-sex marriage more than animus toward gay people (so long as we're still talking about businesses that gladly serve gays). I also suspect that the sorts of businesses that are uncomfortable catering a hypothetical gay wedding aren't uniquely averse to events where same-sex couples are celebrating nuptials. I'd wager, for example, that they'd feel a religious obligation to refrain from catering an art exhibition filled with sacrilegious pieces like Piss Christ, the awards ceremony for pornography professionals, a Planned Parenthood holiday party, or a Richard Dawkins speaking engagement.

A faction of my fellow gay-marriage proponents see things differently.

The latest opponents of gay marriage to be punished for their religious objections to the practice are the owners of Memories Pizza in Walkerton, Indiana.

Matt Welch lays out what happened:

1) Family owners of small-town Indiana pizzeria spend zero time or energy commenting on gay issues.

2) TV reporter from South Bend walks inside the pizzeria to ask the owners what they think of the controversial Religious Restoration Freedom Act. Owner Crystal O'Connor responds, "If a gay couple came in and wanted us to provide pizzas for their wedding, we would have to say no….We are a Christian establishment." O'Connor also says—actually promises is the characterization here—that the establishment will continue to serve any gay or non-Christian person that walks through their door.

3) The Internet explodes with insults directed at the O'Connor family and its business, including a high school girls golf coach in Indiana who tweets "Who's going to Walkerton, IN to burn down #memoriespizza w me?" Many of the enraged critics assert, inaccurately, that Memories Pizza discriminates against gay customers.

4) In the face of the backlash, the O'Connors close the pizzeria temporarily, and say they may never reopen, and in fact might leave the state. "I don't know if we will reopen, or if we can, if it's safe to reopen," Crystal O'Connor tells The Blaze. "I'm just a little guy who had a little business that I probably don't have anymore," Kevin O'Connor tells the L.A. Times.

The owners of Memories Pizza are, I think, mistaken in what their Christian faith demands of them. And I believe their position on gay marriage to be wrongheaded. But I also believe that the position I'll gladly serve any gay customers but I feel my faith compels me to refrain from catering a gay wedding is less hateful or intolerant than let's go burn that family's business to the ground.

And I believe that the subset of the gay-rights movement intent on destroying their business and livelihood has done more harm than good here—that they've shifted their focus from championing historic advances for justice to perpetrating small injustices against marginal folks on the other side of the culture war. "The pizzeria discriminated against nobody," Welch wrote, "merely said that it would choose not to serve a gay wedding if asked. Which it never, ever would be, because who asks a small-town pizzeria to cater a heterosexual wedding, let alone a gay one?" They were punished for "expressing a disfavored opinion to a reporter."

To what end?

Proponents of using the state to punish businesses like this often draw analogies to Jim Crow. Julian Sanchez has persuasively addressed the shortcomings of that argument (even presuming that opponents of gay marriage are motivated by bigotry):

...The “purist” libertarian position that condemns all anti-discrimination laws, including the 1964 Civil Rights Act, as a priori unjust violations of sacrosanct property rights is profoundly misguided and historically blinkered. We were not starting from Year Zero in a Lockean state of nature, but dealing with the aftermath of centuries of government-enforced slavery and segregation—which had not only hopelessly tainted property distributions but created deficits in economic and social capital transmitted across generations to the descendants of slaves. The legacy of state-supported white supremacism, combined with the very real threat of violence against businesses that wished to integrate, created a racist structure so pervasive that unregulated “private” discrimination would have and did effectively deprive black citizens of civic equality and a fair opportunity to participate in American public life.

We ultimately settled on rules barring race discrimination in employment, housing, and access to “public accommodations”—which, though it clearly restricted the associational freedom of some racist business owners within a limited domain, was nevertheless justifiable under the circumstances: The interest in restoring civic equality was so compelling that it trumped the interest in associational choice within that sphere. But we didn’t deny the existence of that interest—appalling as the racist’s exercise of it might be—and continue to recognize it in other domains. A racist can still invite only neighbors of certain races to dinner parties, or form exclusive private associations, or as a prospective employee choose to consider only job offers from firms run or staffed primarily by members of their own race. Partly, of course, this is because regulations in these domains would be difficult or impossible to enforce—but partly it’s because the burden on associational freedom involved in requiring nondiscrimination in these realms would be unacceptably high.

Some of the considerations supporting our limited prohibition of racial discrimination apply to discrimination against gay Americans. But some don’t. Sexual orientation, unlike race, is not transmitted across generations, which means a gay person born in 1980 is not starting from a position of disadvantage that can be traced to a legacy of homophobic laws in the same way that a black person born in 1980 is likely to be disadvantaged by centuries of government-enforced racism. We don’t see the same profound and persistent socioeconomic disparities. Sexual orientation is also not generally obvious to casual observation in a commercial context, which as a practical matter makes exclusion more costly and labor intensive for the bigot. And while I’ve seen any number of claims that allowing private orientation discrimination would give rise to a new Jim Crow era, the fact is that such discrimination is already perfectly legal in most of the country, and it seems as though very few businesses are actually interested in pursuing such policies.

Rather, the actual cases we’ve been hearing about recently involve bigoted* photographers or bakers—who run small businesses but are effectively acting as short-term employees—who balk at providing their services to gay couples who are planning weddings. (I take for granted that gay marriage should, of course, be legal everywhere.) What’s the balance of burdens in these cases? The discrimination involved here doesn’t plausibly deny the gay couples effective civic equality: There are plenty of bakers and photographers who would be only too happy to take their money. Under the circumstances, the urge to either fine or compel the services of these misguided homophobes comes across as having less to do with avoiding dire practical consequences for the denied couple than it does with symbolically punishing a few retrograde yokels for their reprehensible views. And much as I’d like for us all to pressure them to change those views—or at the very least shame them into changing their practices—if there turn out to be few enough of them that they’re not creating a systemic problem for gay citizens, it’s hard to see an interest sufficiently compelling to justify legal compulsion—especially in professions with an inherently expressive character, like photography. In short: Yes, these people are assholes, but that alone doesn’t tell us how to balance their interest in expressive association against competing interests at this particular point in our history.

Perhaps that excerpt convinced some readers to rethink using state coercion to punish an atypically religious baker, photographer, or pizza seller, but they remain convinced that informal punishment of the Memories Pizza family is still appropriate.

The question I'd ask those who want to use non-state means to punish mom-and-pop businesses that decline to cater gay weddings is what, exactly, their notion of a fair punishment is. Nearly every supporter of gay marriage is on board with efforts to publicly tell people that their position is wrongheaded–I've participated in efforts like that for years and insist that respectful critique and persuasion is more effective than shaming. What about other approaches? If their Yelp rating goes down by a star does the punishment fit the "crime"? Is there a financial loss at which social pressure goes from appropriate to too much? How about putting them out of business? Digital mobs insulting them and their children? Email and phone threats from anonymous Internet users? If you think that any of those go too far have you spoken up against the people using those tactics?

(If not, is it because you're afraid they might turn on you?)

A relatively big digital mob has been attacking this powerless family in rural Indiana,** but I don't get the sense that its participants have reflected on or even thought of these questions. I don't think they recognize how ugly, intolerant and extreme their actions appear or the effect they'll have on Americans beyond the mainstream media, or that their vitriolic shaming these people has ultimately made them into martyrs. I fear that a backlash against their tactics will weaken support for the better angels of the gay rights movement at a time when more progress needs to be made, and that they're turning traditionalists into a fearful, alienated minority with a posture of defensiveness that closes them off to persuasion.

And that's a shame.

The religious impulse to shy away from even the most tangential interaction with gay weddings can be met with extremely powerful and persuasive counterarguments so long as we're operating in the realm of reason rather than coercion–so long as we're more interested in persuading than shaming or claiming scalps. Thanks to past persuasion, evangelicals are already evolving on this issue, as David Brooks points out, observing that "many young evangelicals understand that their faith should not be defined by this issue. If orthodox Christians are suddenly written out of polite society as modern-day Bull Connors, this would only halt progress, polarize the debate and lead to a bloody war of all against all."

As an example of a persuader, consider my colleague Jonathan Rauch, who advises the faithful that while they might mean "just leave us alone," others hear, "what we want most is to discriminate against you," a needlessly alienating message when there is "a missionary tradition of engagement and education, of resolutely and even cheerfully going out into an often uncomprehending world, rather than staying home with the shutters closed." He adds, "In this alternative tradition, a Christian photographer might see a same-sex wedding as an opportunity to engage and interact: a chance, perhaps, to explain why the service will be provided, but with a moral caveat or a prayer. Not every gay customer would welcome such a conversation, but it sure beats having the door slammed in your face." The best way forward for all sides is to love one another, or at least to act as though we do.

*While I grant that there are plenty of people whose opposition to gay marriage is rooted in bigotry, my belief is that some opposition to same-sex marriage is clearly not. I challenge anyone who disagrees to read (as just one of many counterexamples) the lovingly and beautifully written "Gay and Catholic: Accepting My Sexuality, Finding Community, Living My Faith," or even Mark Oppenheimer's well-written profile of its author, and to maintain the absolutist position.

**I'd be fascinated to how many grandparents of mob participants oppose gay marriage and what degree of social stigma they would want directed toward them.
 

IrishinSyria

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None of us want to see anyone mistreated or unfairly discriminated against, but it's not as cut & dried as just accepting anyone and everything, regardless of our religious or moral beliefs. Most of us have deeply held values and views that make certain behaviors and beliefs completely unacceptable to us, and catering to or interacting on a meaningful level with those who practice those behaviors or espouse those beliefs is tacit to supporting them.

Let's say you own a restaurant and banquet center. Should you be forced by law to host certain groups whose beliefs are completely antagonistic and revolting to your own? Would you host a KKK group's Christmas party? How about catering NAMBLA's summer social? Would you feel right serving a group of Nazis? What if your religious beliefs said pornography or homosexuality was immoral? Would you be comfortable hosting the wedding party from a gay wedding or the Adult Film Association's awards banquet? We're not talking about refusing to serve anyone from another religion. We're talking about refusing to host a party for a radical group who chants "Death to <insert your religion here>" and advocates the destruction of your religion. Maybe you have no problem at all with serving Muslims, but would you feel morally opposed to serving a group from Hamas or ISIS? Shouldn't you have the right to not do business with any person or group whose beliefs and behavior totally violate your own morals or religious beliefs?

By law, since I work for a hospital, I have to treat anyone and everyone to the full extent of my ability without exception. I understand the reasons for those laws and as hard as it is sometimes, I agree with them. It's damned disgusting and difficult though to treat child molesters, some asshole who just beat his wife almost to death, a drug dealer, or a drunk driver who just killed a van load of kids.

One of the worst moments of my career was pronouncing a 16-year-old girl and her 19-year-old sister, while listening to the 19-year-old's badly injured husband scream and bawl about his wife of 4 months, and having to go save the drunk SOB who'd just destroyed their lives. If I was in private practice, I'd refuse to accept those people as patients. Their behaviors and beliefs make them morally reprehensible to me and I simply couldn't treat them with a clear conscience.

Does that make me a bigot or someone who discriminates against certain groups? I think it just means I don't condone those people's behavior, beliefs, and morals, and don't want to do anything that even remotely condones or supports them. And I should have that right.

This is a good post, and it's fair. However, I think it also gets to the heart of the disagreement we seem to be having, and I'm not sure there's any way to resolve it.

I see homosexuality as primarily an adjective- just like there are Muslim Americans and Christian Americans or black Americans and white Americans, I think there are gay Americans. I strongly believe that the rule of law- and businesses that operate under its auspices- should treat all of the aforementioned groups as Americans. Therefore, I don't think of a "gay wedding," I think of a wedding, that happens to include two males or two females.

Others view homosexuality as primarily a verb- a description of the (immoral) behavioral choices of individuals. If you take this point of view, then it makes sense to draw some of the analogies you draw (chanting death to America, drinking while driving, even being a nazi/member of the KKK). If you have this point of view, then it makes sense that there would be something problematic about catering for a gay wedding, because it is a fundamentally different thing for you than a straight wedding.

Maybe the two views are irreconcilable. Normally, I am in favor of minimal government intervention when it comes to how people choose to live their lives. However, the history of our country is, to me, a powerful argument for why we should not let individual morals/beliefs influence the way our institutions treat groups of people. I am more comfortable with the idea of forcing a business to cater to clients the individual running the business doesn't like than I am with the idea of allowing businesses to discriminate against clients based on their membership in a minority group. If that means there can't be any Christian stores, so be it. Christians are people, not legal entities. If the owner wants to devote not only himself, but also his enterprise, to his interpretation of Christ, he should feel free to start a 501(c)(3).
 
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connor_in

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How many of these businesses that said they would boycott IN do business with other states with similar laws or even with Muslim countries where if you are part of the LGBT community, then you would be jailed and killed by the State
 

GoIrish41

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Did you miss the long line of powerful establishment figures jumping on the outrage train over Indiana's RFRA? Wal-Mart, Apple, SalesForce, Hilary Clinton, etc*. Gays were a despised minority not too long ago, but that's clearly not the case anymore.



Indiana's RFRA is just a thinly-veiled justification for bigoted Christians to discriminate against the LGBT community? How strange then that virtually identical laws have helped Sikhs, Apaches, Muslims and many others defend themselves against government-coerced violation of their sincere religious beliefs.



What do you mean "under the right conditions"? In the short time since SSM has been legalized, gay rights activists have targeted and likely destroyed three Christian-owned businesses. And there's surely more to come, including the closure of thousands of churches that will lose their 501(c)(3) status for "preaching hate". How many LGBT-owned businesses are facing a similar fate?



So a proprietor who happily serves gay patrons for years but feels like he can't, in good conscience, cater a hypothetical gay wedding is a despicable person? We're talking about rare exemptions granted to preserve the Right of Conscience; not about bringing back Jim Crow. I assume you support the right of conscientious objectors not to be coerced into fighting American wars, right? How is this any different? Other than the fact that you may sympathize with the pacifism of the latter, but you can't (or won't) try to understand the religious objection of the former.



But unless you're a big fan of Nietzsche, all behaviors are not created equal, which is why there is an irreconcilable conflict between "gay rights" and religious liberty. Religions posit the existence of metaphysical Truth from which they derive ethical codes. Such codes naturally proscribe certain types of sexual behavior as immoral/ not conducive to human flourishing. But the LGBT community primarily defines itself by such behavior. So orthodox Jews, Muslims and Christians either have to gut their thousands-year-old doctrines regarding sex and marriage to accommodate the Government Approved Victim Class du jour, or be branded modern day Klansmen.

And it won't stop there. The normalization of polyamorism is next. Those who subscribe to Judeo-Christian ideas about the human person and its purpose in life are clearly bigots who needs to be pushed from the public square.

*How interesting that all of these establishment figures are suddenly beating their chests about "rights" for the LGBT community when it costs them nothing to do so, but they suddenly go silent when it comes to the right of immigrants, Chinese factory workers, etc. One is almost tempted to question their sincerity.

Loud public outcries for the rights of the LGBT community fall on deaf ears in my part of the world. None of us should view these as enlightenment. Our society is fundamentally the same as it was a week ago no matter what WalMart posted on Facebook. I just think they are better at understanding which way the wind blows that the Indiana legislature is and made a wise business decision. We should also not assume that not agreeing with a position is the same as not understanding said position. Even the Pope has recently suggested that he is no one to judge homosexuals, so it seems odd that I am debating a Catholic about this issue. I would assume that you would agree with his stance that the LGBTcommunity should be treated with respect. I trust we can agree that refusing to serve a gay couple is not in the least respectful. For my part, I do not have a dog in the fight but I am on the sidelines rooting for the underdog for reasons I have already stated. I am where you will always find me -- on the side of equality and fairness. If there are gay groups committing unlawful acts to push their agenda, I will join the side who calls for their prosecution. Not because they are gay but because they are hurting others by breaking the law. I do not favor making new laws to make it easier for these sort of discriminatory practices to continue. Mike Pence's epic fail at explains this law made its intent obvious and his sudden reversal betrayed a lack of any real conviction -- religious or otherwise -- other than a realization that a real and profound backlash was going to land on the front lawn of th governor's mansion. This law was conceived in my view to allow people to discriminate against a group of under-repressed people. That is my objection to the law. If new laws are to be enacted they should be to encourage inclusion, not division. We should not assume that all who called for such restrictive laws had pure intentions. I recognize that you are principled and a good man and I understand your perspective. I just do not share it. However those who sought the law with less than pure intent are hiding behind the robes of Jesus. Sadly I must admit that if I was a gay man I would be one f those people who would sneer and find another baker. As a straight person with a sense of justice I would also choose another baker. But that does not move us forward either. I applaud the gay couple who made the an issue. That is what caused this discussion and many others cross the nation. And it is in thee discussions that we can find a way to get beyond this type of discrimination. It strikes me however that the next debate will simply be about another group of outcasts for another set of reasons of morality. My position is one of acceptance all around. I have read nothing in scripture in all my years that suggested the use of such base indignities as refusing to bake a cake for another human being no matter if you agree with his faith, his sexuality, his politics, or ones perception of his race. It is an easy concept for me to sort out in my head. Believe what you wish but do not impose your beliefs on others. I believe Christians refer to this as the Golden a Rule. Now that is a concept that I can get behind.
 
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NDgradstudent

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I'm 50 years old and have four children between 21 and 14 years old. I've watched people treat each other like second-class citizens my whole life -- racists, homophobes, anti-government soldier haters, zealots of all stripes, macho douchebags, bullies, and all manner of other hate-filled people content to be among the favored and determined to remain there. We are all in this world together, and hate gets us nowhere. I don't want my kids to see the things that I've seen. I want to believe that we can get beyond that. I want the world to be better for them than it was for me and for all of the people who have been marked as rejects in our society.

It doesn't have to be this way. Acceptance is easier than distain. Just because there aren't enough gay people to overcome the tyranny of the majoriity, doesn't mean that we have to design laws to allow people to treat them differently. We could boycott these businesses ... sure we could ... and under the right conditions we might even be able to drive the bigots out of business. Or, we could stand up as a nation and demand that these types of dispicable behaviors are consigned to history. We could reaffirm that after all these long years of needless, cruel struggle that we still believe the self-evident truth that ALL men are created equal. Or we could allow the perceptions of a few selfish, self-righteous pricks ensure that we remain stuck in the 19th Century forever. Are our only choices when we see these hateful behaviors really to suck it up or find another place to buy a fucking cake? But, alas, this isn't about cake, is it?

The ordinary impulse of the totalitarian: to make human nature illegal. There will always be "hate" in the world. We can "stand up as a nation"? What is this nonsense? Even after the supposedly incredibly successful civil rights movement, whites just moved: why do you think public schools are today more segregated than they were in the 1960s? The only options we have are (1) to accept this (the best option available); (2) to use the law to tell whites where to live (which is what they do in North Korea); or (3) to try to convince whites to send their children to minority-majority schools (which has never worked). There is no force known to physics strong enough to stop whites leaving a school district when minorities move in. This is why the civil rights movement is not a meaningful analogy for anything. The attempt to socially engineer society in the 1960s and 70s was not really as much of a success as some people claim. It is not a relevant template.

The plain fact is that it is simply not the law's business who I do business with, or what I make at my business. Notice that the people running the pizzeria in Walkerton never refused to serve gays as such, only to cater a gay 'wedding.' Their church, like the Catholic Church, teaches that such unions are not marriages. They would refuse to provide a particular service in a particular situation, and for this they deserve to have their lives destroyed. It is okay to hate them, because they are "on the wrong side of history." Why not just call them, as Mao did, "enemies of the revolution"?
 

IrishJayhawk

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I'm not in favor of governors doing something to end up in prison...on either side of the aisle.

Brownback is running a "real live experiment" (his words, not mine) on very conservative economic principles. It's destroying the Kansas economy. And he's killing education funding to cover the shortfall.

2 Years Since Cutting Taxes on the Rich, Here's What Happened to the Economy in Kansas - Mic
 

woolybug25

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What do you mean "under the right conditions"? In the short time since SSM has been legalized, gay rights activists have targeted and likely destroyed three Christian-owned businesses. And there's surely more to come, including the closure of thousands of churches that will lose their 501(c)(3) status for "preaching hate". How many LGBT-owned businesses are facing a similar fate?

Just a nit, let's quit acting like these businesses were hurt. The pizzeria has raised over $500k through their gofundme page. Knowing their market well, I guarantee you that they have never had a bottom line that big in their history. This exposure will end up being an economic boom for these three small businesses. So I think its disingenuous for us to continue acting like they are a victim. If anything, they are playing this scenario for every penny it's worth.

Indiana pizzeria raises $500,000 after saying it wouldn't cater a gay wedding | The Verge
 

Bishop2b5

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I think in this debate we're too often blurring the distinction between individuals from a particular group and the actions of those groups or individuals. I don't think any restaurant, photographer, baker, florist, or anyone else is advocating not serving or dealing with individuals from those groups whose behavior they don't agree with. They're talking about not wanting to actively participate in an event or ritual by one of those groups that violates their own beliefs.

There's a vast difference between not serving gays at your restaurant and not catering a gay wedding. Most people opposed to gay marriage would have no problem with gay customers, but would feel very uncomfortable actively participating in a gay wedding as the florist, photographer or caterer. It's sort of a "hate the sin, not the sinner" approach where you treat the individual with all the respect and fairness in the world, but don't want to implicitly or explicitly support what you view as sinful behavior on their part by being an active participant in it.
 

GoIrish41

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I think in this debate we're too often blurring the distinction between individuals from a particular group and the actions of those groups or individuals. I don't think any restaurant, photographer, baker, florist, or anyone else is advocating not serving or dealing with individuals from those groups whose behavior they don't agree with. They're talking about not wanting to actively participate in an event or ritual by one of those groups that violates their own beliefs.

There's a vast difference between not serving gays at your restaurant and not catering a gay wedding. Most people opposed to gay marriage would have no problem with gay customers, but would feel very uncomfortable actively participating in a gay wedding as the florist, photographer or caterer. It's sort of a "hate the sin, not the sinner" approach where you treat the individual with all the respect and fairness in the world, but don't want to implicitly or explicitly support what you view as sinful behavior on their part by being an active participant in it.
This is a fair point. I just wonder if when we kick in the door how many more "justifiable" claims will rush through. It all starts somewhere even if it starts innocently.
 

IrishJayhawk

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I think in this debate we're too often blurring the distinction between individuals from a particular group and the actions of those groups or individuals. I don't think any restaurant, photographer, baker, florist, or anyone else is advocating not serving or dealing with individuals from those groups whose behavior they don't agree with. They're talking about not wanting to actively participate in an event or ritual by one of those groups that violates their own beliefs.

There's a vast difference between not serving gays at your restaurant and not catering a gay wedding. Most people opposed to gay marriage would have no problem with gay customers, but would feel very uncomfortable actively participating in a gay wedding as the florist, photographer or caterer. It's sort of a "hate the sin, not the sinner" approach where you treat the individual with all the respect and fairness in the world, but don't want to implicitly or explicitly support what you view as sinful behavior on their part by being an active participant in it.

Good, fiar points. But I view the line as very blurry. That's what's giving me mental fits with this stuff.

What about serving two gay people who are clearly on a date? Couldn't someone claim that they don't want to be complicit in homosexual courtship?
 

Irish YJ

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Just a nit, let's quit acting like these businesses were hurt. The pizzeria has raised over $500k through their gofundme page. Knowing their market well, I guarantee you that they have never had a bottom line that big in their history. This exposure will end up being an economic boom for these three small businesses. So I think its disingenuous for us to continue acting like they are a victim. If anything, they are playing this scenario for every penny it's worth.

Indiana pizzeria raises $500,000 after saying it wouldn't cater a gay wedding | The Verge

Come on Wooly. The funding situation happened because of all the pub. If this continues (internet bullying), businesses will continue to be impacted, and all of them will not receive funding... Also, the funding is not the only factor. What about the employees who lost their jobs.
 

IrishLax

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Just a nit, let's quit acting like these businesses were hurt. The pizzeria has raised over $500k through their gofundme page. Knowing their market well, I guarantee you that they have never had a bottom line that big in their history. This exposure will end up being an economic boom for these three small businesses. So I think its disingenuous for us to continue acting like they are a victim. If anything, they are playing this scenario for every penny it's worth.

Indiana pizzeria raises $500,000 after saying it wouldn't cater a gay wedding | The Verge

Two of them were destroyed, this third one (the pizzeria) closed doors under threats. The "gofundme" page wasn't set up by the pizzeria... it was set up by people who felt bad about the threats they were receiving and having to close their doors. Who knows how much of that they will actually get, and they've said they're still uncertain whether they want to continue with their business.
 

GoIrish41

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Good, fiar points. But I view the line as very blurry. That's what's giving me mental fits with this stuff.

What about serving two gay people who are clearly on a date? Couldn't someone claim that they don't want to be complicit in homosexual courtship?

Yes. How far can this reasoning take us? It is the problem that I cannot look past. One could claim all manner of religious objections to all manner of things.
 

Bishop2b5

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Good, fiar points. But I view the line as very blurry. That's what's giving me mental fits with this stuff.

What about serving two gay people who are clearly on a date? Couldn't someone claim that they don't want to be complicit in homosexual courtship?

Absolutely the lines are blurry! There are countless examples, such as the one you give above, where it's hard to say where the line is. I think we need to err on the side of tolerance towards others' legitimate morals and beliefs or exercise of their rights though.

My approach is, "I'll respect your right to do or say whatever you want as long as it doesn't harm others or unduly infringe upon their rights to do the same (no matter how stupid, ridiculous, or wrong I think you are), but you don't have the right to force me to stand up and cheer for you, help you do it, tell you that your views are brilliant when I think they're asinine, or violate my own beliefs and values to actively participate or support you... and I expect you to do the same for me."
 

IrishinSyria

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Absolutely the lines are blurry! There are countless examples, such as the one you give above, where it's hard to say where the line is. I think we need to err on the side of tolerance towards others' legitimate morals and beliefs or exercise of their rights though.

My approach is, "I'll respect your right to do or say whatever you want as long as it doesn't harm others or unduly infringe upon their rights to do the same (no matter how stupid, ridiculous, or wrong I think you are), but you don't have the right to force me to stand up and cheer for you, help you do it, tell you that your views are brilliant when I think they're asinine, or violate my own beliefs and values to actively participate or support you... and I expect you to do the same for me."

Thing is, I completely agree with everything you say here. I just believe that denying someone a service that is offered to the public at large is "unduly infring[ing] upon their rights."

That's why it's important (to me) to distinguish between businesses and individuals. I'm much more comfortable if a business's rights are curtailed than I am if an individual's are. As an individual, nobody is forced to associate with blacks or gays or women or Muslims or any other group of people they don't like, for whatever reason. But I strongly believe that as a business, you should not be able to deny someone service because they fall into any of those or other categories.
 

connor_in

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Excuse me here guys with all your blurry lines and slippery slopes...this does not definitely say that businesses can refuse to serve LGBTs. It basically gives the business owner a potential defense in court if they do in certain situations, but it will still be up to the court to decide.

Correct?
 

connor_in

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Good, fiar points. But I view the line as very blurry. That's what's giving me mental fits with this stuff.

What about serving two gay people who are clearly on a date? Couldn't someone claim that they don't want to be complicit in homosexual courtship?

Well what if an adult and a minor came in, maybe that's a NAMBLA date. What if a person and their pet came in, bestiality maybe. Hypotheticals mean very little. Especially when the law being discussed is only to be used in court and still doesn't mean the business gets away with what they did.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I see homosexuality as primarily an adjective- just like there are Muslim Americans and Christian Americans or black Americans and white Americans, I think there are gay Americans. I strongly believe that the rule of law- and businesses that operate under its auspices- should treat all of the aforementioned groups as Americans. Therefore, I don't think of a "gay wedding," I think of a wedding, that happens to include two males or two females.

Others view homosexuality as primarily a verb- a description of the (immoral) behavioral choices of individuals. If you take this point of view, then it makes sense to draw some of the analogies you draw (chanting death to America, drinking while driving, even being a nazi/member of the KKK). If you have this point of view, then it makes sense that there would be something problematic about catering for a gay wedding, because it is a fundamentally different thing for you than a straight wedding.

This is anecdotal, but most Christians seem to accept the emerging scientific consensus that same-sex attraction is in-born. So I don't think describing homosexuality as an unchosen part of one's identity is controversial. And I don't know of any Christian sect that teaches same-sex attraction as sinful per se. They're just held to the same high standard as the rest of us (which ends up being especially high for gays). It's a shame that the Church has failed to make "Christian celibacy seem possible (let alone valuable, let alone valorizing)"... but that's a separate issue.

Maybe the two views are irreconcilable.

They are, and props to you for recognizing it. Any view of human sexuality that refuses to distinguish between procreative and inherently sterile acts (even if motivated by good intentions) is going to be deeply incompatible with the Abrahamic faiths. And not only on the sexual level, but on the cosmological level as well, since Judeo-Christian sexual ethics flow from a specific understanding of nature and reality.

I think the disconnect for many Progressives is that they think their outlook--which refuses to distinguish between sexual acts on egalitarian grounds-- is somehow values neutral. But it's not. See the Yuval Levin article above. This sort of Progressive Liberalism is America's state religion. It is preached unanimously from our elite universities, our think tanks, our mass media outlets, etc. All the orthodox Abrahamic adherents want are the same legal protections that have always been afforded to religious minorities. Progressives seem hesitant to extend them mainly because many honestly can't comprehend how "religious liberty" is anything but a legal fig leaf for bigotry here, and because they associate Christianity with The Man. But as a Catholic father trying to ensure that my children carry on the faith of their ancestors, I certainly don't feel like the culture is on my side.

Normally, I am in favor of minimal government intervention when it comes to how people choose to live their lives. However, the history of our country is, to me, a powerful argument for why we should not let individual morals/beliefs influence the way our institutions treat groups of people. I am more comfortable with the idea of forcing a business to cater to clients the individual running the business doesn't like than I am with the idea of allowing businesses to discriminate against clients based on their membership in a minority group. If that means there can't be any Christian stores, so be it. Christians are people, not legal entities. If the owner wants to devote not only himself, but also his enterprise, to his interpretation of Christ, he should feel free to start a 501(c)(3).

Again, kudos to you for owning up to this and stating it plainly. But realize that you're basically advocating for the the abrogation of the Establishment Clause. You've determined that Progressive Liberalism is our state religion, and that the common good requires that heretics be removed from the public square. That's a defensible position, but it's not very kind to religious minorities.

Even the Pope has recently suggested that he is no one to judge homosexuals, so it seems odd that I am debating a Catholic about this issue.

Who said anything about judging homosexuals? Pope Francis does not know the state of a gay man's soul, and I don't presume to either. This debate is about whether a newly despised minority--those whose religious beliefs define marriage traditionally--should be able to avail themselves of the legal protections we've always afforded religious minorities.

I would assume that you would agree with his stance that the LGBTcommunity should be treated with respect.

Absolutely.

I trust we can agree that refusing to serve a gay couple is not in the least respectful.

There's a big difference between flatly refusing to serve gays and refusing to participate in religious rite that contradicts one's sincere religious beliefs.

Mike Pence's epic fail at explains this law made its intent obvious and his sudden reversal betrayed a lack of any real conviction -- religious or otherwise -- other than a realization that a real and profound backlash was going to land on the front lawn of th governor's mansion.

Pence's failure to defend the law says a lot more about the GOP than the merits of Right of Conscience protections generally.

If new laws are to be enacted they should be to encourage inclusion, not division.

That's not how religion works. As I argued a couple pages back, religions are inherently discriminatory, in that they draw lines between what is and is not doctrine, who is and is not part of the church, etc. The Left have made it quite clear where they intend to draw the lines for America's state religion. The problem is that those lines will force some religious minorities to violate their sincerely held religious beliefs. We've been debating whether we, as a nation, should grant them a day in court to argue for relief.

But that does not move us forward either. I applaud the gay couple who made the an issue. That is what caused this discussion and many others cross the nation. And it is in thee discussions that we can find a way to get beyond this type of discrimination.

How does threatening Christian-owned businesses with lawsuits and boycotts or denying orthodox Christians the same legal protections every other religious minority enjoys "move us forward"? It's only going to send Christians into the same closet that gays just came out of.

Believe what you wsj but do not impose your beliefs on others.

The Progressives are the ones advocating for the use of cultural and state power to destroy those who believe differently from you.

Just a nit, let's quit acting like these businesses were hurt. The pizzeria has raised over $500k through their gofundme page. Knowing their market well, I guarantee you that they have never had a bottom line that big in their history. This exposure will end up being an economic boom for these three small businesses. So I think its disingenuous for us to continue acting like they are a victim. If anything, they are playing this scenario for every penny it's worth.

Indiana pizzeria raises $500,000 after saying it wouldn't cater a gay wedding | The Verge

My understanding is that the O'Connors didn't ask for any of this. And regardless of the crowd-funding campaign, they were the victims of some vicious threats and a lot of terrible PR simply because they were naive enough to answer a reporter's question honestly. Did they deserve all that? As this witch hunt progresses, there's not going to be such an outpouring of financial support for every future victim.

Listen, I don't doubt for a moment the good faith of those on the other side of this issue from me. But the black and white language you're using to frame this debate will inevitably paint a lot of people, including myself and the Catholic Church, as bigots who deserve to be marginalized just as the KKK was. My side has lost virtually every major cultural battle in this country over the last century or so, and I'm genuinely frightened of how illiberal the adherents of our state religion are acting over this issue, because it's quite possible that I might need to invoke the principle of religious pluralism in the future as a newly despised minority.
 
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connor_in

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Just as an fyi...


States with RFRAsEdit

There are 21 states that have a version of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act enacted by their legislature:

Alabama (state constitution amendment)[25][26]
Arizona[27]
Arkansas[28]
Connecticut[29]
Florida[29]
Idaho[29]
Illinois[29]
Indiana[30]
Kansas[29]
Kentucky[31]
Louisiana[29]
Mississippi[32][33]
Missouri[29]
New Mexico[29]
Oklahoma[27]
Pennsylvania[29]
Rhode Island[29]
South Carolina[29]
Tennessee[29]
Texas[29]
Virginia[29]
If states with RFRA-like provisions that have been provided by state court decisions—rather than via legislation—are included, the list also contains:[34]

Alaska
Hawaii
Ohio
Maine
Massachusetts
Michigan
Minnesota
Montana
North Carolina
Washington
Wisconsin
Some states have had legislation withdrawn or vetoed. Arizona's bill SB 1062 was vetoed by Governor Jan Brewer. Bills 1161 and 1171 have been vetoed by a Colorado committee.[35][36] [37]


State Religious Freedom Restoration Acts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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