Politics

[Whiskeyjack]

There are treaties, very important ones, that say this type of behavior is verboten.

We haven't made any binding security guaranties to Ukraine. Is a Baltic backwater worth starting WWIII over?

 

[JughedJones]

We haven't made any binding security guaranties to Ukraine. Is a Baltic backwater worth starting WWIII over?

This is not true. When the U.S.S.R. broke up, the U.S., Germany, and the U.K. signed a treaty with Ukraine stating that if they gave back all of the nuclear weapons in their borders, we would protect their sovereignty.

It's a real thing, and it's being ripped apart right now. (allegedly)

(and if this isn't worth flexing our muscles over, nothing is.)

 

[JughedJones]

Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[connor_in]

Illegal immigrants demand representation in White House meetings - Washington Times

 

[Whiskeyjack]

This is not true. When the U.S.S.R. broke up, the U.S., Germany, and the U.K. signed a treaty with Ukraine stating that if they gave back all of the nuclear weapons in their borders, we would protect their sovereignty.

I had to write a paper on it for one of my IR classes at ND, so I'm very familiar with the Budapest Memo. Take a look for yourself (it's very short). There's nothing in there that even comes close to a binding security guarantee by the US, and that's not an accident.

It's a real thing, and it's being ripped apart right now. (allegedly)

Russia has certainly violated it, though it was a pretty flimsy paper shield to begin with.

(and if this isn't worth flexing our muscles over, nothing is.)

Really? You can't conceive of a different set of circumstances that would better justify going to war than defending the territorial integrity of Ukraine? Understand what you're advocating for here. While Russia doesn't pose the existential threat that it used to, it still has a massive stockpile of nuclear weaponry. I have a hard time imagining a likely international crisis that would justify risking nuclear holocaust; defending a Baltic backwater in which we have zero vital interests doesn't even come close.

Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From that very wikipedia article:

The Budapest Memorandum was negotiated as a political agreement. It refers to assurances, not defined, but less than a military guarantee of intervention. According to Stephen MacFarlane, a professor of international relations "It gives signatories justification if they take action, but it does not force anyone to act in Ukraine." In the U.S. neither the George H. W. Bush administration nor the Clinton administration was prepared to give a military commitment to Ukraine, nor did they believe the U.S. Senate would ratify an international treaty, so the memorandum was agreed as a political agreement.

The government of Belarus said that American sanctions were in breach of the Memorandum; the United States government responded that, although not binding, the Memorandum is compatible with its work against human rights violations in eastern Europe.

 

[RDU Irish]

Little bit of straw man going on here. I will posit - CA residents have to be concerned with the welfare state and MIGRATION of wealthier residents to friendlier tax climates.

I know one San Fran retiree that moved to Lake Tahoe area of Nevada, significantly lower cost of living on top of a HUGE reduction in state income tax, not to mention property taxes. And its not like the new area is inherently inexpensive. Retirees are the best type of residents, pretty low demand on services, especially schools.

Say you have a $100,000 retirement income in San Fran, you can save $10,000 a year on state income taxes by moving a few hours away. Then look at a even more annual savings for housing costs. Taxes are half (same rate, but you are able to buy same house for half as much) and your house costs half as much (say $400,000 versus $800,000). The valuation difference is easily another $15K to $20k per year of "savings" (either reducing costs of a mortgage or increasing dollars invested for more income).

A solid 1/3rd reduction in expenses means you can retire on $70,000 instead of $100,000. BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE, what about the federal income taxes on the $30,000 difference? Say it is a conservative 15% marginal federal tax, "earning" $30,000 less per year saves $4500 in taxes. Now you are down to $65,000 versus $100,000, half of which is covered by Social Security. Public pension can knock out the difference in no time.

 

[RDU Irish]

I've seen people move out of Wisconsin and Michigan for far less, even wealthier folks spending 6 months and a day at their "primary" residence somewhere warmer to file taxes elsewhere. The second homes can pay for themselves in many cases.

 

[BobD]

In summation; it cost more to live in nice places.

 

[T Town Tommy]

In summation; it cost more to live in nice places.

Going back to Cali, Cali... I don't think so....

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

In summation; it cost more to live in nice places.

San Diego nicer than Naples or Tampa, FL? LA that much nicer than Austin, TX? Wine country in Napa that much more beautiful than Lake Tahoe? Oooookkkk.

One can easily look at the state income taxes and property taxes of your state of CA, compare it to TX, FL, or AZ and say hmmm...no wonder people are leaving for nearby states with similar climate and save some cash.

 

[Rack Em]

In summation; it cost more to live in nice places.

We're getting pretty off topic, but that's highly subjective.

I'm from rural Missouri and I find that to be a "nice place." It's simple, the people are nicer, cost of living is lower, we actually manufacture our own electricity (with nuclear power to boot), etc.

California weather is nice and the National Parks are pretty incredible, but that's about all I would consider nice. Plus, Eddie Vanderdoes.

 

[BobD]

San Diego nicer than Naples or Tampa, FL? LA that much nicer than Austin, TX? Wine country in Napa that much more beautiful than Lake Tahoe? Oooookkkk.

One can easily look at the state income taxes and property taxes of your state of CA, compare it to TX, FL, or AZ and say hmmm...no wonder people are leaving for nearby states with similar climate and save some cash.

It's laughable that you actually think you're right. You really believe TX, FL or AZ have a similar climate? My God, pull yourself together man and get out more.

 

[BobD]

We're getting pretty off topic, but that's highly subjective.

I'm from rural Missouri and I find that to be a "nice place." It's simple, the people are nicer, cost of living is lower, we actually manufacture our own electricity (with nuclear power to boot), etc.

California weather is nice and the National Parks are pretty incredible, but that's about all I would consider nice. Plus, Eddie Vanderdoes.

There are wonderful places all over the USA. I love Indiana and the people there. This whole conversation is because leppy has an uninformed opinion (actually several) about the Golden state.

 

[Buster Bluth]

California weather is nice and the National Parks are pretty incredible, but that's about all I would consider nice. Plus, Eddie Vanderdoes.

..the coast?

From a city standpoint, having one if the most pedestrian-friendly cities in the hemisphere, San Fransisco, doesn't hurt either.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

There are wonderful places all over the USA. I love Indiana and the people there. This whole conversation is because leppy has an uninformed opinion (actually several) about the Golden state.

As RackEm said, "nice places" is highly subjective and that's fine. CA isn't the only state in the country with a beautiful climate. As I, magogian, and RDUirish have pointed out to you, my opinion on CA as it relates to migration (not population, Bob) is not only informed but supported by readily available data.

 

[Rack Em]

..the coast?

From a city standpoint, having one if the most pedestrian-friendly cities in the hemisphere, San Fransisco, doesn't hurt either.

The water is frigid year round.

Full of hippies.

I'm just not a fan, basically at all, of California.

 

[RDU Irish]

lol Rack'em - "Vanderdoes"

Bob - Cisco is balancing their employment bases between Raleigh and San Jose. All hiring is in NC with essentially a hiring freeze in CA until they get from the current 70% Cali, 30% RDU mix to a preferred 50/50 split. Huge part of the issue, gotta pay a lot more in San Jose for the same skillset. Why do you have to pay them so much more if the climate and location are so much more desirable? Shouldn't people be willing to get paid less to live and work in your utopia?

Did you miss the articles on Phil Mickelson? He is as tied to San Diego as anyone and can't ignore the enormous tax savings by living less than six months there.

Besides, how many people have so much discretionary income that they can even afford to pay so much more to live somewhere? While you work you are somewhat tied to jobs. When you retire, you have no such constraints and are hypersensitive to getting more bang for your limited dollars.

I think you could make a pretty good case for underwater mortgages stemming the migration out of CA more than anything. Tons of people aren't ABLE to leave.

 

[RDU Irish]

San Fran was a nice place to visit, having been there I don't feel compelled to be a regular visitor. Living there would make my skin crawl. Same for LA. San Diego is more my speed. Megatropolis is closer to hell than heaven in my book.

Rural areas of this country are greatly underappreciated. You can live super cheap in small towns, actually know your neighbors and feel like part of a community. Why more people to retire to these places, particularly on smaller fixed incomes, is beyond me. Tons of options within an hour of major cities if you are married to some of the conveniences and don't want to be too isolated.

 

[RDU Irish]

US Housing Crisis - Negative Equity Infographic - Zillow

Actually a fun interactive map to look at. Shows ranges of negative equity in addition to how far off the peak various areas are in housing. So many Nevada, Arizona and California markets that are still 30% - 50% off highs was kind of surprising to me. Makes me wonder how many people in those areas are waiting to come all the way back.

 

[Ndaccountant]

The water is frigid year round.

Full of hippies.

I'm just not a fan, basically at all, of California.

 

[Rack Em]

To South Park hippies, I would be an Eichmann.

 

[BobD]

To each their own. There are a lot of expensive places to live that people tend to disparage.......until they can afford to live there.

For example this home in Carmel, Ca is stupid, the taxes are through the roof, and there are rules to live in the neighborhood. Pshhhh what a shithole of a place.

 

[irishog77]

The water is frigid year round.

Full of hippies.

I'm just not a fan, basically at all, of California.

Dawg,

The dog and human feces all over the sidewalk and street in Haight Ashbury is soooo worth it though.

So is the enormous homeless population and accompanying odors virtually throughout the city.

 

[Rack Em]

To each their own. There are a lot of expensive places to live that people tend to disparage.......until they can afford to live there.

For example this home in Carmel, Ca is stupid, the taxes are through the roof, and there are rules to live in the neighborhood. Pshhhh what a shithole of a place.

Shots fired? Are you getting defensive because I don't want to live in California? I can't tell.

It's not a shithole. Cali is rad and such but I value where I live by more than the FMV of the property. It's more about the people I live around and the municipality I live in.

Do we share like values and a sense of community? Is it hostile toward Catholicism or is cool with it? Are my city and state using my tax dollars wisely? Or are they taxing me out my anus and not being responsible stewards? Is the state so dominated by urban areas that the votes of the rural citizens are drowned out (see Chicago and Illinois)?

I get none of the above from California. I'm sure there are instances where I'm incorrect and I recognize that. But you're vastly oversimplifying "nice" by attaching a dollar sign and social status to it.

I may never be able to afford to live in some swanky California mansion. I'm perfectly okay with that. Even if I can, I wouldn't (no matter what state I live in) because I don't need it.

 

[RDU Irish]

To each their own. There are a lot of expensive places to live that people tend to disparage.......until they can afford to live there.

For example this home in Carmel, Ca is stupid, the taxes are through the roof, and there are rules to live in the neighborhood. Pshhhh what a shithole of a place.

You seem to agree that California is an expensive place to live. In your opinion it is worth it. Millions obviously agree. You also seem to think that absolute growth of population in general is a sign of a health while ignoring there is a net migration out of the state (more people moving out than moving in). I do not see data digging deeper to say who is moving out versus moving in, I'm not looking for it elsewhere, just not seeing compelling evidence in either direction here. However my suspicion is you are receiving more low income households and losing more affluent.

Affluent folks tend to have many options at their disposal and more to gain by ditching a high tax state. Just because they have money does not mean they have sense. People move to RDU daily from Boston, NYC, California, etc and gush about how much less housing costs. They were willfully ignorant because the cost of living is such a freaking nightmare in those areas that it is easier to stick your head in the sand and make excuses than to deal with the reality of how getting ahead in these areas is difficult to say the least.

If you want to trade Phil Mickelson for three illegals and call it a net gain to California, you have an uphill argument IMO. I'm not saying that is the case, just that someone should not be labeled ignorant for making the claim.

 

[RDU Irish]

Do some math. If you need to earn $200k in Cali or NYC to live the same way as someone earning $120k in a "lesser" city like Raleigh you have more than just cost of living to contend with. Look at your federal tax burden, our progressive system taxes you at 25% for those marginal dollars earned. Of that $80k extra income, $20k is going to Uncle Sam. Then you lose eligibility for Roth IRAs and phase out of tons of tax credits and deductions, call it another $5k of lost "benefits".

Then you have commute issues. If you commute 30 minutes from Raleigh or Milwaukee, you can pretty much be in a rural area with decent schools, low crime and cheap housing. NYC, San Fran, LA? You can't escape the city which means high price housing is almost inescapable. One and two hour commutes are accepted and worn as a badge of honor. In two hours I can be at the beach or in the mountains. In Chicago, you have to plan two hours to get in to a Cubs game from Schaumburg.

 

[BobD]

People have talked smack about California for years. The weirdos we have are famous. Hell, we even laugh at our own reputation. California is someplace you need to live to understand. There are tons of immigrants coming here, some poor and many very rich ones. People tend to only focus on the Mexicans because they are mostly poor. They forget about the upper middle class, the millionaires and billionaires from all over the world that can't get enough of the place. In some ways it's good balance because the wealthy coming here need goods and services. The less fortunate coming here have opportunities because of that. You should hear more about my friend Horacio that just got his citizenship, and just made his first million doing foundations and dry wall. His wife should become legal soon. They are great hard working (oh and Catholics) people. I'm sure life would be easier on them if they had blonde hair and blue eyes, or even if they were black because then they'd have the naacp to represent them.

Don't look at propaganda spun by disparagers. You can't look at California on some report and come to any valid conclusion.

 

[Wild Bill]

People have talked smack about California for years. The weirdos we have are famous. Hell, we even laugh at our own reputation. California is someplace you need to live to understand. There are tons of immigrants coming here, some poor and many very rich ones. People tend to only focus on the Mexicans because they are mostly poor. They forget about the upper middle class, the millionaires and billionaires from all over the world that can't get enough of the place. In some ways it's good balance because the wealthy coming here need goods and services. The less fortunate coming here have opportunities because of that. You should hear more about my friend Horacio that just got his citizenship, and just made his first million doing foundations and dry wall. His wife should become legal soon. They are great hard working (oh and Catholics) people. I'm sure life would be easier on them if they had blonde hair and blue eyes, or even if they were black because then they'd have the naacp to represent them.

Don't look at propaganda spun by disparagers. You can't look at California on some report and come to any valid conclusion.

He's a millionaire and can threaten his wife with deportation. The majority of white dudes I know have it much worse.

 

[ickythump1225]

Having lived in California now for the past 5-6 months I can tell you California is...different. On one had I can see why so many people love it: nice beaches, beautiful women, nice weather, more things to do than you could even imagine, etc. On the other hand I see why so many people hate it: high cost of living, overcrowding, high taxes, somewhat dysfunctional government, very liberal social values, etc.

California isn't perfect, but it's not hell either. I probably won't spend the rest of my life here though. Not in San Diego anyway. If I stayed in California I would move further north toward Oregon.

 

[RDU Irish]

Great points, Bob. Like I said, I don't see the stats and the anecdotal evidence is just that. Now if those foreign millionaires/billionaires are actually taking US citizenship and paying CA income taxes, that is more telling that just choosing to have one of many international homes there.

I would also argue that Horacio might not have the labor relationships necessary to make that million if he were blonde and blue like you suggest.