Politics

[IrishJayhawk]

Wrong on both points.

1) The fundamental argument is based on choice for parents and students. Politicians and teachers unions don't want choice. Why? Competition for public education causes major problems for public education enrollment, which effects that district's budget, which effects the teachers' cushy pension/ benefits/ salary. We can't have that, can we?

2) Private/ charter schools aren't required to admit students with special needs, but those numbers in public schools aren't sticking out like a sore thumb. Those same private/ charter schools also don't have 98% of their kids with a 3.9 GPA and top of the line SAT/ ACT scores. Every private school isn't like a high end NYC prep school. Do you think St. Xavier in Ohio or Acquinas in Florida doesn't have middle of the road kids or below? It's not all determined by ability/ genes/ IQ. It starts at home, goes to school and the environment, the discipline, the parents, etc.

Even if you removed the special needs students from the equation, there is no comparing the academic achievement between public schools and private schools. Charter schools I'm not going to stick up for. Many are shady, they still get their money from the state, and are there for reasons outside academics (sports).

With all due respect, anyone who describes teacher salaries and pensions as cushy loses some credibility in my book.

I have a friend who lives in Scottsdale, Arizona. This person has not had a raise in 5 years, despite the union. This person has been teaching for eight years and is incredibly good at it. She has a high quality master's degree in her field. She still makes $37,000 and can't afford to live in the community in which she teaches. There is no tenure in Arizona. She can be fired for no reason whatsoever. This is SCOTTSDALE...one of the richest suburbs in Phoenix.

Riddle me this...if teaching is easy and the salaries and pensions are so amazing, why don't all of the best people do it? Why don't you? Why doesn't IrishPat? He's clearly the best and the brightest... Isn't that how the invisible hand works?

Here's my opinion...biased as it may be as a 13 year veteran teacher... as to why....
Teaching is hard.
Teaching is not very well compensated (in most of the country).
The ability to retire with some measure of comfort after a long teaching career used to be incentive for getting into the field. That incentive has been stripped.
Class sizes continue to increase.
Standardized tests continue to be a meaningless metric that determines "success."
Teachers are constantly told how to do their job by people who haven't spent a day in front of a class.

 

[pkt77242]

A couple of things to consider. Prior to the Carter administration there was no federal Department of Education. At that point the federal government began providing financial assistance to states and since then there has been a steady decline in the US education system. Could it be possible that with the influx of federal assistance public school teacher salaries and benefits increased to the point that individuals who do not have a "passion" for teaching were drawn into the profession and therefore teacher and student performance has suffered?

Also while we like to think that all kids are equally intelligent and deserve the same amount of attention, this is simply not the case. Some individuals are simply smarter then others yet everyone gets placed in the same classes. This cannot be helpful to either end of the spectrum as the highly intelligent kids will become bored and the less intelligent kids will be frustrated.

Personally I believe (1) we should completely do away with the US Department of Education and all federal subsidies to the states; and (2) segregate high school into two fields of study. One designed for college prep and the other for simply a "basic" high school degree. In NJ there are just too many individuals who are graduating from high school, getting admitted to public colleges (either community or four year institutions), who need to take a full year of remedial courses because they do not have basic English or math knowledge to do college level work.

What the Hell? Teachers do not make a great salary especially starting out. The average is probably in the mid 30K. NEA - 2011-2012 Average Starting Teacher Salaries by State Do you really think that draws people that don't have a passion for teaching?

 

[connor_in]

Obama's Economy — We've Fallen And We Can't Get Up - Investors.com

The picture gets even grimmer the deeper you dive into the data. The most vulnerable groups — blacks, Hispanics, female-headed families and the young — have fared far worse under Obama than everyone else.

Black households' median income has plunged 11% since the "recovery" started. Hispanic households are off 4.5%. For single moms, median household income dropped 7.5%. For those households with three or more children, it fell even more — 9.2%.

When Sentier broke its data down, every age group lost ground — except senior citizens. Those aged 65 to 74 saw median income climb 5.1% from June 2009 to June 2013. Those 75 and older enjoyed a 2.1% gain.

Creating an economy where only retirees collecting government checks are getting ahead is not exactly a recipe for increasing prosperity.

And all this despite the fact that more homes are headed by those with at least some college education. Sentier found the number of householders with an associate's degree shot up almost 15% during Obama's recovery, while those with a bachelor's rose more than 10%.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

so yes, some humility.

Perhaps it's time to lead by example.

 

[ACamp1900]

Flat out lying about others positions... like I stated anecdotes are more powerful than stats/ data.... Claiming other opinions or valid points are meritless simply because you don't like what they say... Insulting half the thread repeatedly, then claiming others are going into " pat territory" WHILE stating over and iver that we need more humility... .??


I know where you can go from here.

 

[irishpat183]

Good point. Except, no.

Let me google that for you

Teach, how did you do that?? LOL.

Mind blown.


I've had numerous friends go to private schools that weren't any smarter or brighter than anyone else. You just gotta have the cash. Or be a great football player.

 

[irishpat183]

With all due respect, anyone who describes teacher salaries and pensions as cushy loses some credibility in my book.

I have a friend who lives in Scottsdale, Arizona. This person has not had a raise in 5 years, despite the union. This person has been teaching for eight years and is incredibly good at it. She has a high quality master's degree in her field. She still makes $37,000 and can't afford to live in the community in which she teaches. There is no tenure in Arizona. She can be fired for no reason whatsoever. This is SCOTTSDALE...one of the richest suburbs in Phoenix.

Riddle me this...if teaching is easy and the salaries and pensions are so amazing, why don't all of the best people do it? Why don't you? Why doesn't IrishPat? He's clearly the best and the brightest... Isn't that how the invisible hand works?


Here's my opinion...biased as it may be as a 13 year veteran teacher... as to why....
Teaching is hard.
Teaching is not very well compensated (in most of the country).
The ability to retire with some measure of comfort after a long teaching career used to be incentive for getting into the field. That incentive has been stripped.
Class sizes continue to increase.
Standardized tests continue to be a meaningless metric that determines "success."
Teachers are constantly told how to do their job by people who haven't spent a day in front of a class.

Becasue we don't want too. But I will tell you this, and don't get offended, ANYONE can these days.

I believe that teachers score the lowest on college entrance exams nowadays? So why should they get paid more? Raise the standards, weed out bad teachers, then the pay will rise becuase you are attracting better talent which will command more money. And get rid of the teachers unions. As Houstonian said...there is a guy who fed his own seman to a class and will keep his pension? How the hell does that happen unless some union thugs get involved?

And I can't even handle my own two kids. So I applaud you, my friend.



GOOD teachers are the backbone of education and an incredible influence on a childs life...but bad teachers and unions are ruining it.

 

[irishpat183]

read the rest of the thread. you've entered 'irishpat territory', where you're reading things without thinking and throwing out random thoughts laced with insults. i respond b/c no one likes to be insulted without responding, but i don't enjoy it. let it go.

but yeah, my point is that we should have some humility in what is known for certain and what is not, and this is especially true when it comes to policy. me and everyone else. we know from lots of experiments gone bad that policies rarely work the way you envision them in your heads. so yes, some humility.

When did I insult you? You called yourself a "dick", not me. And that was after almost all of my posts you had some remark.

You brought this one on yourself.

 

[autry_denson]

Flat out lying about others positions... like I stated anecdotes are more powerful than stats/ data.... Claiming other opinions or valid points are meritless simply because you don't like what they say... Insulting half the thread repeatedly, then claiming others are going into " pat territory" WHILE stating over and iver that we need more humility... .??

I know where you can go from here.

1) Your style is to antagonize. 2) I think debates end when anecdotes are treated in the same way as evidence. 3) you pulled the old classic "well if you want to point out that the data show that the US does not lead the world in rates of economic mobility then why don't you go live somewhere else" (I love when people revert to this, it's hilarious).

As much as I enjoy it when people go for this last line of thinking, when you combine all of this together it's tiresome and not productive. For all of these reasons I don't think it's useful to engage your comments. I know this pisses you off, I apologize. But I'm sure you feel the same way about me. Instead of trading insults, let's not engage.

and yes, I repeat the call for humility in discussing what is known and what is not known - I stated it initially in reference to a discussion about the effects of voucher programs, but it's true generally as well. humility in the discourse on this thread is more challenging given the tone of what's on here, but it's also probably something to shoot for. and again, I include myself along with all of you.

 

[ACamp1900]

1.) I antagonize??? that's truly hilarious coming from you.

2.) Anecdotes are a form of evidence, have fun with that one. I have openly stated they are not as reliable and have never said they are on the same level as valid research.

3.) I was very clear, I told you to take a hike because of your condescending and dismissive attitude towards everyone, not because of any data you brought to the table… but continue to misrepresent.

4.) I agree on not engaging, in fact I’ll just put you on my ignore list moving forward, I'd suggest teh same on your end, have a good one.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

...Riddle me this...if teaching is easy and the salaries and pensions are so amazing, why don't all of the best people do it? Why don't you? Why doesn't IrishPat? He's clearly the best and the brightest... Isn't that how the invisible hand works?

Well, I for one wouldn't ever go into teaching because I would hate it. It's the same class, basically same material, little professional development and few opportunities for advancent. I don't necessarily think the teacher salaries are that great, but even here in Texas you get 80% of your average salary over the last 5 years as a lifetime pension. That's a better deal than just about anywhere else. And that's putting aside the normal arguments about summer vacation/wintervacation/spring break/shorter hours/non-accountability. So if you happen to like teaching, and don't ever want to be anything more than a teacher, then it's a pretty good gig. That just doesn't fit many professionals' profiles.

Teaching is hard.

You know, I sort of disagree, respectfully. I mean, teaching can definitely be *not easy*. But when people complain about teaching being "so hard" it makes me wonder what they're comparing it to. When you think of the accountants, oil-rig workers, garbage men, project managers, office assistants, etc., of the world, I don't think you can really say that teachers have it so much worse than normal, everyday jobs. Let's face it, every full time job is basically "hard". There are a few that are a lot harder than others, particularly those that rountinely require things like all-nighters and crazy deadlines, but teaching just isn't one of them.

 

[autry_denson]

Ignoring my question entirely and being condescending while doing so makes me want to deport you. How about you do some reading as to what I am asking saying....

...

I am saying most any country that pays their highly trained, diligent professionals less than what a person could make sitting on their backside eating Cheetos is going to see that dynamic impact their mobility numbers as the lower classes are not going to be incentivized properly enough to be mobile. It’s willfully ignorant to imply otherwise in my opinion. Contrary to your condescending attitude to anyone who thinks differently from you in this thread, you've shown NOTHING to that point.

After this post I explained why I was not responding by writing: 'I don't think the post merits a response.' I was trying not to respond at all, but ended up writing this b/c Acamp continued to ask me why I was ignoring his question.

My short answer could certainly be seen as offensive. In truth, it's the least offensive way I could respond to a post like this.

How many layers of absurdity does Acamp's statement contain? Do we really think that our country "pays their highly trained, diligent professionals less than what a person could make sitting on their backside eating Cheetos"? Does anyone think this has any element of truth to it? Forget the fact that starting teacher salaries vary enormously from state to state, that he has given no sense of whether he's talking about pure cash assistance (which pays a ridiculously low amount but also varies hugely by state), food stamps, disability, unemployment benefits. What value does this statement have? It is impossible to evaluate, it is meaningless.

And then he asks me to provide evidence about this statement's truth in other developed countries. So we want to conduct a review of how much people earn for eating Cheetos versus the salaries of teachers all over the developed world? Is this the data that he's looking for in a response?

I could have spent several paragraphs writing all of this. But Acamp's statement is silly. It has no meaning. It is impossible to argue for or against b/c it's impossible to evaluate. This type of stuff drives me nuts. It is argument without thought, designed to antagonize and not to stimulate debate.

So I could write all of this, as I've just done. (and I have no doubt that this will offend Acamp and he'll come raging back foaming at the mouth.) Or, when pushed to respond, I could say that the post doesn't merit a response. That's the route I chose. I know it's also offensive to say that, but my sense is that it's a more appropriate response. We'll find out when he responds to this...

 

[ACamp1900]

I always fall in the middle of the merits of teaching thing, as a teacher I find it hard to listen to the person that talks about teachers being overpaid or it not being a difficult job so on… on the other hand I don’t think (aside from the training, time and money that goes into entering the field) much separates teaching from other honorable fields, like carpet laying or truck drivers for example…

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

With all due respect, anyone who describes teacher salaries and pensions as cushy loses some credibility in my book.

I have a friend who lives in Scottsdale, Arizona. This person has not had a raise in 5 years, despite the union. This person has been teaching for eight years and is incredibly good at it. She has a high quality master's degree in her field. She still makes $37,000 and can't afford to live in the community in which she teaches. There is no tenure in Arizona. She can be fired for no reason whatsoever. This is SCOTTSDALE...one of the richest suburbs in Phoenix.

Riddle me this...if teaching is easy and the salaries and pensions are so amazing, why don't all of the best people do it? Why don't you? Why doesn't IrishPat? He's clearly the best and the brightest... Isn't that how the invisible hand works?

Here's my opinion...biased as it may be as a 13 year veteran teacher... as to why....
Teaching is hard.
Teaching is not very well compensated (in most of the country).
The ability to retire with some measure of comfort after a long teaching career used to be incentive for getting into the field. That incentive has been stripped.
Class sizes continue to increase.
Standardized tests continue to be a meaningless metric that determines "success."
Teachers are constantly told how to do their job by people who haven't spent a day in front of a class.

Most teachers' salaries aren't cushy, but their benefits and pension packages have been and continue to drain townships and states' budgets. It's fiscally unsustainable. Why don't the best and brightest teach? Maybe they aren't all bleeding hearts. Maybe they have other motivations. Because they're most likely in the private sector making more money. There is nothing wrong with a guy who has a 3.9 GPA as a Bio major to go work for a pharma company as opposed to teaching high school Bio for $40k a year. I spent three years in education and didn't want government in charge of my job or my salary, so I went private sector.

Teaching is hard, but no one forces you to do it.
Teaching is not well compensated? Debatable. Philly suburbs start teachers at $55k and their principals are well over 6 figures. It also comes down to economics. The more people who do your job, the less you're going to be paid.
Teachers can still retire fairly easily unless they do something crazy like have sex with a student. It's very costly for a district to try to fire a teacher, no matter what the cause.
Teachers are constantly told how to do their jobs by politicians, but that's what you get when government is in charge of government. If you want your state funded salary, benefits, and pension you also have to accept the government dictating what you teach and how you teach.

Privatize the whole damn system, each township/ district can devise their own budget, cirriculum, staff, salary, etc. and give parents and teachers more freedom and flexibility.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

With all due respect, anyone who describes teacher salaries and pensions as cushy loses some credibility in my book.

I have a friend who lives in Scottsdale, Arizona. This person has not had a raise in 5 years, despite the union. This person has been teaching for eight years and is incredibly good at it. She has a high quality master's degree in her field. She still makes $37,000 and can't afford to live in the community in which she teaches. There is no tenure in Arizona. She can be fired for no reason whatsoever. This is SCOTTSDALE...one of the richest suburbs in Phoenix.

Riddle me this...if teaching is easy and the salaries and pensions are so amazing, why don't all of the best people do it? Why don't you? Why doesn't IrishPat? He's clearly the best and the brightest... Isn't that how the invisible hand works?

Here's my opinion...biased as it may be as a 13 year veteran teacher... as to why....
Teaching is hard.
Teaching is not very well compensated (in most of the country).
The ability to retire with some measure of comfort after a long teaching career used to be incentive for getting into the field. That incentive has been stripped.
Class sizes continue to increase.
Standardized tests continue to be a meaningless metric that determines "success."
Teachers are constantly told how to do their job by people who haven't spent a day in front of a class.

Forgot about your friend in Scottsdale. Riddle me this...if she can't afford to live there, hasn't gotten a raise, and they don't have tenture, why doesn't she leave the friggin school and go somewhere else? It's a crazy, private sector idea people in the business world utilize every day.

 

[connor_in]

33 Shocking Facts Which Show How Badly The Economy Has Tanked Since Obama Became President

 

[phgreek]

33 Shocking Facts Which Show How Badly The Economy Has Tanked Since Obama Became President

aaaannnnd its Bush's fault / Republicans are Obstructionists in 3-2-1...

 

[BobD]

It's the fault of assclowns.

Assclowns always believe its the other guys fault instead of a team failure.

 

[phgreek]

It's the fault of assclowns.

Assclowns always believe its the other guys fault instead of a team failure.

mmhmm...

but rarely is it ever seen that way.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

It's the fault of assclowns.

Assclowns always believe its the other guys fault instead of a team failure.

Yeeaaaaahhhh. That's what Obama ran on in 2008.

 

[irishpat183]

Yeeaaaaahhhh. That's what Obama ran on in 2008.

Exactly. That was his entire platform.

Cheney=Bush.
Romney=Bush

It could've been Jesus running against him and he would've used the same tactics. LOL

 

[BobD]

Yeeaaaaahhhh. That's what Obama ran on in 2008.

Exactly. That was his entire platform.

Cheney=Bush.
Romney=Bush

It could've been Jesus running against him and he would've used the same tactics. LOL

What the hell are you two talking about? It's the fault of Americans, not republicans or democrats, Americans as a whole.

Again I say: Only an assclown would think it's the other guys fault.

 

[DSully1995]

What the hell are you two talking about? It's the fault of Americans, not republicans or democrats, Americans as a whole.

Again I say: Only an assclown would think it's the other guys fault.

Well you kinda have to look at the political sides since thats the only choice you have. Only one side repealed glass steagall or whatever you wanna attirbute your problems to, since most of the time they can be traced back to political decisions.

 

[Wild Bill]

What the hell are you two talking about? It's the fault of Americans, not republicans or democrats, Americans as a whole.

Again I say: Only an assclown would think it's the other guys fault.

It's the fault of a small faction of Americans who will not accept individual responsibility. Politicians who encourage their behavior with entitlements share the blame.

 

[irishpat183]

It's the fault of a small faction of Americans who will not accept individual responsibility. Politicians who encourage their behavior with entitlements share the blame.

YES!!!


And I was simply stating a fact...Obama ran on the "It's all their fault" slogan.



I agree, it's government that is the problem. They feed the fear to us and we eat it up. Government has, and always will be, the problem.

 

[autry_denson]

It's the fault of a small faction of Americans who will not accept individual responsibility. Politicians who encourage their behavior with entitlements share the blame.

bankers right?

 

[irishpat183]

bankers right?

and the auto industry, the zero liablity voters....

Yes. All of the above.

 

[Kanye West]

YES!!!


And I was simply stating a fact...Obama ran on the "It's all their fault" slogan.



I agree, it's government that is the problem. They feed the fear to us and we eat it up. Government has, and always will be, the problem.

Romney ran on that slogan as well any politician ever. But the last part is very true, no matter how you look at it the Federal Government has too much power in either party. Outdated policies like medicare, medicaid and Social Security are equally to blame as the War on Drugs, multiple wars, and tax loopholes. The problem isn't one party its the entire government.

 

[ACamp1900]

It's the fault of assclowns.

I hate those guys... does that make me a racist??

 

[DSully1995]

bankers right?

Its funny that we still think bankers created the mess. ITs actually the housing sector that sparked it, with the help of the commercial banks. For the longest time mortgages were the safest investment possible, for people who couldnt afford to lose the money. Then the government stepped in and..... in barney franks own words: rolled the dice. They changed the lending standards.

The result was giving mortgages to everyone and their daughter, no matter if they could pay it off. Those mortgages default and house of cards comes down, pulling down the investment banks caught up in the trades.