Politics

[Wild Bill]

If you work harder your ODDS at success are much amplified, but not total. The other piece is education, while hard work determines mostly if you move the ladder, education determines how many steps are on your ladder.

What would anyone here think of a voucher system for k-12, where parents control where the student goes to school, competition within schools could be a good incentive to provide better education

It's a great idea. Teacher's union won't let it happen.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

...What would anyone here think of a voucher system for k-12, where parents control where the student goes to school, competition within schools could be a good incentive to provide better education

It's a great idea. Teacher's union won't let it happen.

Yep. Lots of people love that idea (and try to implement it) but most of the times in the U.S. the teacher unions do everything they can to stop it from happening.

 

[autry_denson]

If you work harder your ODDS at success are much amplified, but not total. The other piece is education, while hard work determines mostly if you move the ladder, education determines how many steps are on your ladder.

What would anyone here think of a voucher system for k-12, where parents control where the student goes to school, competition within schools could be a good incentive to provide better education

Let me be a d*ck for a second: It doesn't matter what people on here think. If you're interested in understanding the likely impacts of this type of voucher system, start by reading the research that's been done on the issue - there is a ton of it.
Much of the research is extremely high quality, and I'll give you a spoiler: the answer to your question is nuanced. Some kids would probably benefit, others would not; some schools respond to competition, most don't. But I honestly don't understand why you would ask some random guys on a football board (some of whom explicitly state that they don't believe in empirical evidence) when you can read the research. This is a beginning from a 5 second google search, there's much much more: The Effect of School Choice on Student Outcomes: Evidence from Randomized Lotteries

 

[Buster Bluth]

If you work harder your ODDS at success are much amplified, but not total. The other piece is education, while hard work determines mostly if you move the ladder, education determines how many steps are on your ladder.

What would anyone here think of a voucher system for k-12, where parents control where the student goes to school, competition within schools could be a good incentive to provide better education

Now we're onto something.

We desperately need to destroy the federal government's role in education outside of funding with no strings attached. We need states and local governments to be in control of their schools, with only minimal oversight (i.e. no creationism bullshit in public schools). We need to recognize that problems in urban schools are totally different than suburban schools and totally different from rural schools; we need policies to act accordingly.

Above all, and here's where it gets tricky, we need to recognize that when you have worthless parents, the odds are that the child can be practically screwed beyond repair before they even get into the school system. So, we need welfare reform that doesn't encourage having children. We need free (hell, even pay them), shots for teenage females so they don't have kids while in school, and we need monetary welfare incentives for urban parents to place their child(ren) in preschool (or sooner) programs that are proven to work. We need to pour money into Montessori programs nationwide.

Bottom line is, we have to have programs that solve the problems. Get rid of the federal control and start innovating.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Let me be a d*ck for a second: It doesn't matter what people on here think. If you're interested in understanding the likely impacts of this type of voucher system, start by reading the research that's been done on the issue - there is a ton of it.
Much of the research is extremely high quality, and I'll give you a spoiler: the answer to your question is nuanced. Some kids would probably benefit, others would not; some schools respond to competition, most don't. But I honestly don't understand why you would ask some random guys on a football board (some of whom explicitly state that they don't believe in empirical evidence) when you can read the research. This is a beginning from a 5 second google search, there's much much more: The Effect of School Choice on Student Outcomes: Evidence from Randomized Lotteries

"Evidence from Randomized Lottery" doesn't sound like families making a conscious decision about which school district their child would be most likely to excel in. If nothing else, tax dollars should follow students. I lived in a public school district, but went to a private school, shouldn't my tax dollars follow me to the new school?

 

[irishpat183]

Let me be a d*ck for a second: It doesn't matter what people on here think. If you're interested in understanding the likely impacts of this type of voucher system, start by reading the research that's been done on the issue - there is a ton of it.
Much of the research is extremely high quality, and I'll give you a spoiler: the answer to your question is nuanced. Some kids would probably benefit, others would not; some schools respond to competition, most don't. But I honestly don't understand why you would ask some random guys on a football board (some of whom explicitly state that they don't believe in empirical evidence) when you can read the research. This is a beginning from a 5 second google search, there's much much more: The Effect of School Choice on Student Outcomes: Evidence from Randomized Lotteries

You are all the time. What's new?


Most would benefit. It allows CHOICE!!! What don't you get about that??? I can choose to send my children to where I deem fit.

 

[irishpat183]

"Evidence from Randomized Lottery" doesn't sound like families making a conscious decision about which school district their child would be most likely to excel in. If nothing else, tax dollars should follow students. I lived in a public school district, but went to a private school, shouldn't my tax dollars follow me to the new school?

He doesn't get it and never will.....Everyone under the umbrella of big brother and slash choices so the bottom can "rise" to the top.

Everyone equally poor and angry. That's what he's going for.

 

[irishpat183]

Yep. Lots of people love that idea (and try to implement it) but most of the times in the U.S. the teacher unions do everything they can to stop it from happening.

You can't even fire bad teachers....It's insane.

 

[irishpat183]

The sheer amount of ignorance in this sentence literally makes me sad.



And those aforementioned studies are showing us over and over that the opportunity just doesn't exit for millions of our youth.

I too would like to live in your fantasy world in which opportunity was available to everyone and it was simply a measurement of work ethic to decide how successful we are. But that isn't the case at all.

What opportunities "don't exist"....Be specific. I'd like to know what school will turn down a kid because he's "poor" and what job will turn a hardworking kid down because he's poor or was born into a bad family.


Again...give me some examples. Not pie charts that tell us **** we already know: Poor people have it tough and tend to follow in the footsteps of those before them.

^But is that really society at work...or is it that the individual has made the decision to do it because it's the easy way and all they know?

 

[DSully1995]

Let me be a d*ck for a second: It doesn't matter what people on here think. If you're interested in understanding the likely impacts of this type of voucher system, start by reading the research that's been done on the issue - there is a ton of it.
Much of the research is extremely high quality, and I'll give you a spoiler: the answer to your question is nuanced. Some kids would probably benefit, others would not; some schools respond to competition, most don't. But I honestly don't understand why you would ask some random guys on a football board (some of whom explicitly state that they don't believe in empirical evidence) when you can read the research. This is a beginning from a 5 second google search, there's much much more: The Effect of School Choice on Student Outcomes: Evidence from Randomized Lotteries

Cause its much more amusing with flesh and blood people, I didnt expect any of you to be experts in this field, but I do enjoy discussing **** with anyone really.

 

[potownhero]

The sheer amount of ignorance in this sentence literally makes me sad.



And those aforementioned studies are showing us over and over that the opportunity just doesn't exit for millions of our youth.

I too would like to live in your fantasy world in which opportunity was available to everyone and it was simply a measurement of work ethic to decide how successful we are. But that isn't the case at all.

Check this out: In the 48 largest metro areas (US), there is no meaningful relationship between inequality and upward mobility.

A Non-superficial look at Economic Mobility

 

[GowerND11]

Now we're onto something.

We desperately need to destroy the federal government's role in education outside of funding with no strings attached. We need states and local governments to be in control of their schools, with only minimal oversight (i.e. no creationism bullshit in public schools). We need to recognize that problems in urban schools are totally different than suburban schools and totally different from rural schools; we need policies to act accordingly.

Above all, and here's where it gets tricky, we need to recognize that when you have worthless parents, the odds are that the child can be practically screwed beyond repair before they even get into the school system. So, we need welfare reform that doesn't encourage having children. We need free (hell, even pay them), shots for teenage females so they don't have kids while in school, and we need monetary welfare incentives for urban parents to place their child(ren) in preschool (or sooner) programs that are proven to work. We need to pour money into Montessori programs nationwide.

Bottom line is, we have to have programs that solve the problems. Get rid of the federal control and start innovating.

The bolded is just spot on! I agree with your whole post Buster, but want to focus on the bold.

I believe we had an education thread on here earlier this year. As I mentioned in there the federal government, specifically NCLB, has failed to make any progress in education. Like you say leave the feds out of the schools. Only provide funding and let the states and local governments dictate curriculum and standards. I also have a major problem with these baseline numbers set up to reach 100% proficiency amongst students in our nation. We cannot expect an urban school with little funding to produce at a level as a wealthy district in a suburb, yet that is what these regulations want. When that poor school fails to reach unobtainable goals it is punished with loss of funding. (uhhh WHAT?!?!) Therefore they continue to not reach goal and look worse and worse. Instead the system should focus on a flexible goal based on each district need. If a school does improve, even not on par with another, this should be seen as a positive.

Example. If a failing school manages 30% proficiency amongst students in math in year one it should be expected they can improve on that number in year two. This should not mean, however, we should expect that school to reach some rigid goal of 70% set by the state. Instead we should focus on can that school reach 34% in year two. Much more realistic and still upward moving.

I also have a problem with the nation wanting 100% proficiency in math and writing. Obviously that would be amazing, and we should strive for perfection and being the best educated nation. However, think about how hard it would be to achieve this realistically. In a school of 600 students, all of them would have to pass. That's one he!! of an accomplishment. Especially to do that year after year. It's likely that some will fail. It's about reacting to that failure that matters.

 

[ACamp1900]

Education has been on this road since Dewey and the Progressive Education movement of the early 20th century... very hard to stop that kind of momentum... Like anything else, I don’t see big gov. stepping back from their now entrenched role… in fact Common Core standards from the Fed. Are now taking over something like 40ish state’s curriculum next year… for better or worse.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

You can't even fire bad teachers....It's insane.

And we can't fire our students.

Vouchers do nothing to solve the problem. Private/charter schools do better in large part because they can choose their clientele.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

And we can't fire our students...

Isn't that what it means to be "expelled"...?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Isn't that what it means to be "expelled"...?

You can't be expelled for just being bad at school. You have to burn something.

Public schools don't get to have entrance standards, must serve the entire population (including children with various special needs and disabilities), and are constantly threatened with funding cuts if they don't perform as well as people who know nothing about teaching think they should.

 

[connor_in]

And we can't fire our students.

Vouchers do nothing to solve the problem. Private/charter schools do better in large part because they can choose their clientele.

My public school teacher wife agrees with this, but also says the private schools (not all, but a significant number) have a higher percentage of better teachers due to ability to pay and ability to fire.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

My public school teacher wife agrees with this, but also says the private schools (not all, but a significant number) have a higher percentage of better teachers due to ability to pay and ability to fire.

That's true in some situations, but not all. Some private schools pay significantly less than the public schools (which is already generally ridiculous, IMO). Some private school teachers believe it's their mission to be where they are...that's commendable. But, for the reasons I outlined above, I just don't think that voucher money should accompany the student.

 

[connor_in]

That's true in some situations, but not all. Some private schools pay significantly less than the public schools (which is already generally ridiculous, IMO). Some private school teachers believe it's their mission to be where they are...that's commendable. But, for the reasons I outlined above, I just don't think that voucher money should accompany the student.

You are correct in that some private pay less than public and see that as their mission. This is especially true in smaller religiously tied schools.

As for vouchers, I am still not sold either way personally.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

You can't be expelled for just being bad at school. You have to burn something.

Public schools don't get to have entrance standards, must serve the entire population (including children with various special needs and disabilities), and are constantly threatened with funding cuts if they don't perform as well as people who know nothing about teaching think they should.

So you have to acknowledge that they can get "fired".

By contrast, last year in California it took over a year and $55k to fire a teacher that had fed semen to his elementary school class.

Oh, and he gets to keep his pension and lifetime health benefits.

L.A. teacher suspected of lewd conduct keeps benefits - latimes.com

 

[ACamp1900]

You can't be expelled for just being bad at school. You have to burn something.

Public schools don't get to have entrance standards, must serve the entire population (including children with various special needs and disabilities), and are constantly threatened with funding cuts if they don't perform as well as people who know nothing about teaching think they should.

No more public education.... problem solved...

 

[DSully1995]

That's true in some situations, but not all. Some private schools pay significantly less than the public schools (which is already generally ridiculous, IMO). Some private school teachers believe it's their mission to be where they are...that's commendable. But, for the reasons I outlined above, I just don't think that voucher money should accompany the student.

Then what would you like to see?

 

[irishpat183]

And we can't fire our students.

Vouchers do nothing to solve the problem. Private/charter schools do better in large part because they can choose their clientele.

Great point.


But vouchers would be a good start. And most private schools don't "choose" the kids. Any kid can go to private school (not all of them, but most)

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

And we can't fire our students.

Vouchers do nothing to solve the problem. Private/charter schools do better in large part because they can choose their clientele.

Wrong on both points.

1) The fundamental argument is based on choice for parents and students. Politicians and teachers unions don't want choice. Why? Competition for public education causes major problems for public education enrollment, which effects that district's budget, which effects the teachers' cushy pension/ benefits/ salary. We can't have that, can we?

2) Private/ charter schools aren't required to admit students with special needs, but those numbers in public schools aren't sticking out like a sore thumb. Those same private/ charter schools also don't have 98% of their kids with a 3.9 GPA and top of the line SAT/ ACT scores. Every private school isn't like a high end NYC prep school. Do you think St. Xavier in Ohio or Acquinas in Florida doesn't have middle of the road kids or below? It's not all determined by ability/ genes/ IQ. It starts at home, goes to school and the environment, the discipline, the parents, etc.

Even if you removed the special needs students from the equation, there is no comparing the academic achievement between public schools and private schools. Charter schools I'm not going to stick up for. Many are shady, they still get their money from the state, and are there for reasons outside academics (sports).

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Anyone see this on the news tonight or hear our president insert himself into it like he did with Trayvon Martin?

WWII vet, beaten by teens outside Eagles Lodge, dies
Author: Ian Cull, KXLY4 Aug 22 2013 04:05:48 PM PDT

SPOKANE, Wash. -
WWII veteran Delbert Belton survived being wounded in action during the Battle of Okinawa only to be beaten and left for dead by two teens at the Eagles Lodge in Spokane on Wednesday evening.

Belton, 89, died from the injuries he suffered in the beating Thursday morning at Sacred Heart Medical Center.

Witnesses say the Belton was in the parking lot of the Eagles Lodge at 6410 N. Lidgerwood, adjacent to the Eagles Ice-A-Rena, around 8 p.m. Wednesday when the two male suspects attacked him.

Belton died from his injuries Thursday at Sacred Heart Medical Center.

"Shorty," as he was known by his friends at the Eagles Lodge, served in the U.S. Army in the Pacific during WWII and was shot in the leg during the Battle of Okinawa. He went on to work at Kaiser Aluminum at the company's Trentwood plant for more than 30 years.

He loved playing pool, even though he claimed he was no good at it and had been a member of the Eagles Lodge for the last four months. In addition to playing pool he loved working on cars.

Belton's wife passed away several years ago.

Spokane police are looking for two male suspects in the attack. They said the suspects are African Americans between 16 and 19 years old.

One suspect was described as heavy set and wearing all black clothing. The other was described as being about 6 feet tall and 150 pounds. There was no description of what clothing the second suspect was wearing other than a silk do-rag.

Police investigating the deadly attack on Belton are also working to obtain surveillance footage from the scene.

 

[autry_denson]

"Evidence from Randomized Lottery" doesn't sound like families making a conscious decision about which school district their child would be most likely to excel in. If nothing else, tax dollars should follow students. I lived in a public school district, but went to a private school, shouldn't my tax dollars follow me to the new school?

Just to clarify: I wasn't saying this study provides the answer to the question, I was just pointing to this as a starting point for getting a grasp about what we know about the issue.

But on the lottery piece - that just means that everyone had signed up for the school, some were randomly selected to attend and others randomized out. Provides a setting to get a good estimate of what the effects of that school are for those who are interested in attending.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Anyone see this on the news tonight or hear our president insert himself into it like he did with Trayvon Martin?

WWII vet, beaten by teens outside Eagles Lodge, dies
Author: Ian Cull, KXLY4 Aug 22 2013 04:05:48 PM PDT

SPOKANE, Wash. -
WWII veteran Delbert Belton survived being wounded in action during the Battle of Okinawa only to be beaten and left for dead by two teens at the Eagles Lodge in Spokane on Wednesday evening.

Belton, 89, died from the injuries he suffered in the beating Thursday morning at Sacred Heart Medical Center.

Witnesses say the Belton was in the parking lot of the Eagles Lodge at 6410 N. Lidgerwood, adjacent to the Eagles Ice-A-Rena, around 8 p.m. Wednesday when the two male suspects attacked him.

Belton died from his injuries Thursday at Sacred Heart Medical Center.

"Shorty," as he was known by his friends at the Eagles Lodge, served in the U.S. Army in the Pacific during WWII and was shot in the leg during the Battle of Okinawa. He went on to work at Kaiser Aluminum at the company's Trentwood plant for more than 30 years.

He loved playing pool, even though he claimed he was no good at it and had been a member of the Eagles Lodge for the last four months. In addition to playing pool he loved working on cars.

Belton's wife passed away several years ago.

Spokane police are looking for two male suspects in the attack. They said the suspects are African Americans between 16 and 19 years old.

One suspect was described as heavy set and wearing all black clothing. The other was described as being about 6 feet tall and 150 pounds. There was no description of what clothing the second suspect was wearing other than a silk do-rag.

Police investigating the deadly attack on Belton are also working to obtain surveillance footage from the scene.

Yep. There's gonna be a good deal of outrage over this one. If for no other reason than there aren't many WWII vets left.

 

[autry_denson]

You are all the time. What's new?


Most would benefit. It allows CHOICE!!! What don't you get about that??? I can choose to send my children to where I deem fit.

I am a d*ck on this thread, no doubt about it. I get very frustrated with the direction that these discussions go, with the way that debates transform into insults, with the way that random opinions are proclaimed with certainty.

There are certain issues that I know a lot about b/c I teach them and research them, and others that I know nothing about. The lesson from the stuff that I know really well is that we should all be very cautious in making bold claims about what the right answer is to puzzles from social science or to policy making. No matter what outcome you're going after, your favored policy approach is probably going to have a whole bunch of unforeseen consequences and mixed effects, benefiting some and harming others. When policies get tested in the real world they usually don't end up working exactly as they were planned, and they rarely produce a clear answer to a policy puzzle that is consistent across cities, states or nations.

This doesn't mean we should stop debating, but it does mean we should have some humility when we do so. If you're interested in a topic like school vouchers, go read some of the experimental work that's been done on voucher systems to get a sense of how they have worked in different places. What you'll find is that there's some very good evidence suggesting that some examples of private and charter schools improve students' academic performance substantially, and there's also some very good evidence that systems of choice and vouchers have null or negative effects on student performance and overall school performance. The answer is complex, but it helps a lot to know what the evidence base has told us before we start delving into the political discussions about vouchers and charters.

When I use the word 'humility', this is what I mean - the right answer is often elusive, and we have to learn a lot before making strong claims about any given social policy debate .

Sometimes these threads generate informed discussion. More frequently they are laced with insults and persistent attempts to antagonize "the other side." This stuff is not productive, and it's contagious - this is not my style of debate, but I drift into it on here.

That's why I suggested that the poster asking about vouchers should check out the research first. But I understand the response - it's sometimes fun to shoot the sh*t about social debates or policy issues. Personally, it drives me nuts to see people make points that are blatantly contradicted by all of the evidence we have generated (e.g. the subsequent post about inequality and mobility is wrong, and just a complete misinterpretation of the evidence).

But that means I should stay out of these threads so as not to come off like a condescending d*ck. I came here for ND football, but I get drawn in to this thread all the time. I'll probably get sucked in a bunch more times, but it is probably best to let it go as much as possible.

 

[MJ12666]

A couple of things to consider. Prior to the Carter administration there was no federal Department of Education. At that point the federal government began providing financial assistance to states and since then there has been a steady decline in the US education system. Could it be possible that with the influx of federal assistance public school teacher salaries and benefits increased to the point that individuals who do not have a "passion" for teaching were drawn into the profession and therefore teacher and student performance has suffered?

Also while we like to think that all kids are equally intelligent and deserve the same amount of attention, this is simply not the case. Some individuals are simply smarter then others yet everyone gets placed in the same classes. This cannot be helpful to either end of the spectrum as the highly intelligent kids will become bored and the less intelligent kids will be frustrated.

Personally I believe (1) we should completely do away with the US Department of Education and all federal subsidies to the states; and (2) segregate high school into two fields of study. One designed for college prep and the other for simply a "basic" high school degree. In NJ there are just too many individuals who are graduating from high school, getting admitted to public colleges (either community or four year institutions), who need to take a full year of remedial courses because they do not have basic English or math knowledge to do college level work.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Great point.


But vouchers would be a good start. And most private schools don't "choose" the kids. Any kid can go to private school (not all of them, but most)

Good point. Except, no.

Let me google that for you