Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

Bluto

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Bluto thanks for proving my original point. Your articles are from 8-10 and 8-11. It was written about and then fell off the map. The head of the EPA did not show up for almost a week....basically said there is nothing to see here and left. Maybe T-Town's BP example is not a good one, but I think his point applies here.

On a side note, how do you attach the articles?

They did a follow up just this evening as well interviewing a sports fishing guide. Throw in the report I heard on the 14th and that's a week straight of coverage. So yeah there's that Obama loving liberal media cover up machine in action. Lol.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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Here's the most recent Planned Parenthood expose video:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FzMAycMMXp8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

"I’m sitting here and I’m looking at this fetus, and its heart is beating, and I don’t know what to think.”

"She gave me the scissors and told me that I had to cut down the middle of the face. I can’t even describe what that feels like."
 

T Town Tommy

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The BP spill was covered by MSNBC just like all places covered it. LOL. It isn't about who's watch it was on. If anything most of the coverage focused on BP and their problems.

You want facts. Here you go.


The spill was a TV story, but different on cable vs. network | Pew Research Center

CNN covered it the most with 42%
MSNBC with 32%
Fox came in last with 18%

How about you should be pissed at Fox for not covering it. Do you know why Fox didn't cover it? Because BP was the big bad guy. Nice try.





Here are some other facts about the BP oil spill and the media.
100 Days of Gushing Oil – Media Analysis and Quiz | Pew Research Center


ETA: For the first 100 days they covered it for almost 1/3 of the airtime studied. That is a very different picture from your "they didn't cover it after the first week".

EETA: TTown I like you but you are just wrong with this one.

Finally read the link in your response pkt77242 and willingly admit my comments on MSNBC was not accurate. Thanks for setting my perception meter correct.
 

connor_in

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Democratic Blues - Jeff Greenfield - POLITICO Magazine

Taken as a whole, these six years have been almost historically awful for Democrats. You have to go back to the Great Depression and the Watergate years to find so dramatic a reversal of fortunes for a party. And this time, there’s neither a Great Depression nor a criminal conspiracy in the White House to explain what has happened.
 
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Bluto

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The head of Mossad just did a fairly lengthy interview on the PBS News Hour stating why he supports the US Iran nuclear deal.
 

phgreek

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The head of Mossad just did a fairly lengthy interview on the PBS News Hour stating why he supports the US Iran nuclear deal.

...Former Mossad Chief Efraim Halevy

He "believes" the Iranians will cheat, but the world will know...and will do something. I'm not that confident as trade with other bad actors progresses. Snap back sanctions are seemingly not realistic.

He seems to think "Wait and see" on self-inspections of Parchin is ok because the IAEA official is a trustworthy judge of character...This requires no further commentary

Credible guy...same holes.
 

Bluto

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...Former Mossad Chief Efraim Halevy

He "believes" the Iranians will cheat, but the world will know...and will do something. I'm not that confident as trade with other bad actors progresses. Snap back sanctions are seemingly not realistic.

He seems to think "Wait and see" on self-inspections of Parchin is ok because the IAEA official is a trustworthy judge of character...This requires no further commentary

Credible guy...same holes.

Russia, China, All of Europe and now the former head of Mossad come out in support of this deal and that's still not enough? All the bullshit fear mongering going on over this is pretty rediculous.
 

BGIF

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Russia, China, All of Europe and now the former head of Mossad come out in support of this deal and that's still not enough? All the bullshit fear mongering going on over this is pretty rediculous.


Russia and China are for it. What more could we ask? North Korea?
 

phgreek

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Here is the thing...will the EPA maintain sampling wells throughout the drainage for the next 15-20 years? Will they even test sediments along the entire spill path? At what level will they remediate, and what will that entail (dredging?). Everyone has an "oh shit" moment. The thing that concerns me is to what standard does the EPA hold itself in the cleanup here? Lots of eyes watching...and two things happen...the EPA's own response becomes the measure of "reasonable" for future "oh shit" moments in industry, AAAND, those who restrain themselves from polluting will make decisions based on EPA's response, and reality is, EPA and the public can't police everyone and everything...WHAT THEY DO, AND HOW THEY PRESENT IT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.
 
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Cackalacky

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Do you want to know why the right wing has trouble aligning with minorities? This guy is your answer. Not only did he say this and mean it, but several presidential hopefuls went onto his show afterwards without calling him out or rebutting anything he said. This is discpicable through and through.
Iowa Radio Host Stands By Plan To Enslave Undocumented Immigrants If They Don't Leave | Blog | Media Matters for America

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/h3QTCBrQ_Sk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

Ndaccountant

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How Many Employers Could be Affected by the Cadillac Plan Tax? | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation

Interesting to read the details, I was unaware that FSA contributions by the employee was factored into the benefit value. That really is unfortunate as that could be a mechanism to help soften the blow of pushing more costs to the employee, which has already occurred.

There were three things that struck me about this article:

1 - Limiting choice. Everyone wants great health care at a low price. Unfortunately, that hasn't been the case. What does make me uncomfortable is that due to the way the tax is calculated, a significant portion of the working world will eventually be subject to this tax. That was by design, IMO, to force people into standardized plans, that will ultimately limit choice. I am not sure people will appreciate that, even if it is for the greater good. I still firmly believe that socializing healthcare, or anything for that matter, goes against the DNA of this country.

2 - This will be a mess. The whole idea of who pays the tax, how it moves throughout the system and the uncertainty of timing w/r/t determining if someone is subject to the tax, will cause a massive headache. This will require massive coordination that I am certain we are not prepared for. The regs are not fully written on this and the systems that will need to be in place to make this work will take some time to construct. If we have learned anything from the rollout of Obamacare, it is that you cannot wait until the last minute to get this done. I hope the government has learned their lesson or this will be another roll-out black eye.

3 - In response to #1, I do see employers trying to give employees choice, by passing the tax onto them via surcharges. But as the article mentions, this will most likely have a direct impact on people who are sick or who desire premium coverage. Those types of plans could unwind and become extinct if the scenario plays out like the author suggests. Again, perhaps that is the plan all along.
 

phgreek

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Do you want to know why the right wing has trouble aligning with minorities? This guy is your answer. Not only did he say this and mean it, but several presidential hopefuls went onto his show afterwards without calling him out or rebutting anything he said. This is discpicable through and through.
Iowa Radio Host Stands By Plan To Enslave Undocumented Immigrants If They Don't Leave | Blog | Media Matters for America

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/h3QTCBrQ_Sk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Influential...I've never heard of him.

What he said...provocative, offensive, stupid, and beneficial to no one.

BUT, how do you know any of the Republican candidates knew what he said. I've seen nothing that said that subject came up when they were on. I mean, I'll cede the point their operatives should know before they let the candidates appear, but if the white house can say "i didn't know" about things directly in its charge...and that is credible to you, yet it isn't the first thought here????

I'm guessing if you asked Carly Fiorina who the guy is, she wouldn't remember.

Also, can I generalize all liberals based on the hateful rhetoric of Al Sharpton, assuming he's been to the white house like 100 times??? He says something every week. I'm sure Hillary, Bernie, and Biden have all talked to him...never saw them distance themselves...and the damned president is pretty cozy with him.
 
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Cackalacky

Guest
Influential...I've never heard of him.

What he said...provocative, offensive, stupid, and beneficial to no one.

BUT, how do you know any of the Republican candidates knew what he said. I've seen nothing that said that subject came up when they were on. I mean, I'll cede the point their operatives should know before they let the candidates appear, but if the white house can say "i didn't know" about things directly in its charge...and that is credible to you, yet it isn't the first thought here????

I'm guessing if you asked Carly Fiorina who the guy is, she wouldn't remember.

Also, can I generalize all liberals based on the hateful rhetoric of Al Sharpton, assuming he's been to the white house like 100 times??? He says something every week. I'm sure Hillary, Bernie, and Biden have all talked to him...never saw them distance themselves...and the damned president is pretty cozy with him.

I guess you are asking these questions rhetorically because he is definitely an influential Iowa radio personality. He has hosted presidential candidates 40 time this year alone so they know who he is.
Jan_Mickelson_Guests_2015.png


That's exactly my point. Why didn't it come up? Why didn't it get addressed. Any normal person would either stay away or decline to appear on his show, but they did appear on his show. And they didn't address it.

I am am guessing Carly Fiorina knows exactly who he is because she went on his show. Ted Cruz could not wait to get on his show after he doubled down:
Iowa right wing radio host Jan Mickelson is not backing down from his appalling suggestion that immigrants who are in the country illegally should be rounded up and made slaves of the state. He told Media Matters that his idea is “constitutionally defensible, legally defensible, morally defensible, biblically defensible and historically defensible.” And then Ted Cruz went on his show as if he wasn’t a horrible piece of shit.

As to your last statement....Again, I don't know why you have to always do a tit for tat on the politics. Do you feel the need to do that? DOes it make you feel better? I never mentioned Dems. The Dems don't want to actually re-implement slavery.

I have only mentioned this guy in context of the Republicans having a very bad PR with minorities when they absolutely have to make gains to win a presidential election and its been one of their goals to incorporate more diversity. This guy proves that point and as a corallary, and in opposition to the stated goals of the Republican Chair, are hurting themselves by appealing to this kind of fuckwittery.
 

phgreek

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I guess you are asking these questions rhetorically because he is definitely an influential Iowa radio personality. He has hosted presidential candidates 40 time this year alone so they know who he is.
Jan_Mickelson_Guests_2015.png


That's exactly my point. Why didn't it come up? Why didn't it get addressed. Any normal person would either stay away or decline to appear on his show, but they did appear on his show. And they didn't address it.

I am am guessing Carly Fiorina knows exactly who he is because she went on his show. Ted Cruz could not wait to get on his show after he doubled down:


As to your last statement....Again, I don't know why you have to always do a tit for tat on the politics. Do you feel the need to do that? DOes it make you feel better? I never mentioned Dems. The Dems don't want to actually re-implement slavery.

I have only mentioned this guy in context of the Republicans having a very bad PR with minorities when they absolutely have to make gains to win a presidential election and its been one of their goals to incorporate more diversity. This guy proves that point and as a corallary, and in opposition to the stated goals of the Republican Chair, are hurting themselves by appealing to this kind of fuckwittery.

Seemed to me to be generalization of the fuckwittery to all the R candidates. Rather they knew or didn't know what this guy said, my point was, people ignore some real asshats who have a following in order to get their own message out there. Tit for tat is a mechanism to say that (the comparison wasn't intended to say whose crazy shit was worse but rather to say it exists on both sides, and is ignored)...

I rarely attack all democrats, or all liberals because shit just devolves. I do attack Hillary Clinton for her actions. I disagree with Bernie sanders, but I like what his campaign means to any candidate who means what they say. But in their entirety, politicians RARELY call out asshats like this, Sharpton/Jackson/Wright, etc. and they actually use the asshats, and their following to get their own message out. That doesn't mean they agree, or are at all associated with any statement.

...you can say your critique was simply related to a specific political "need", and how dumb the Rs are, blah, blah, blah. Seemed more than that to me. Seemed a generalization in order to purport the Ds are better...and the attached TYT video spent alot of time saying just that... Individual candidates may very well be "better" (if Biden runs you have an argument). But as a party...there is no "Better". There is the ability to turn a blind eye, and deaf ear to how your guy/gal wins.
 

wizards8507

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Al Sharpton led anti-Semitic race riots in the 90s with doozies like "If the Jews want to get it on, tell them to pin their yarmulkes back and come over to my house." And he visits the White House, hosts Democratic rallies, etc. Let's get over the idiotic practice of pinning every controversial comment made by someone who once interviewed a candidate on the candidate himself.
 

EddytoNow

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Influential...I've never heard of him.

What he said...provocative, offensive, stupid, and beneficial to no one.

BUT, how do you know any of the Republican candidates knew what he said. I've seen nothing that said that subject came up when they were on. I mean, I'll cede the point their operatives should know before they let the candidates appear, but if the white house can say "i didn't know" about things directly in its charge...and that is credible to you, yet it isn't the first thought here????

I'm guessing if you asked Carly Fiorina who the guy is, she wouldn't remember.

Also, can I generalize all liberals based on the hateful rhetoric of Al Sharpton, assuming he's been to the white house like 100 times??? He says something every week. I'm sure Hillary, Bernie, and Biden have all talked to him...never saw them distance themselves...and the damned president is pretty cozy with him.

As to the bolded part, I will concede that the Republican candidates may not have known everything they should have known before appearing on this clown's show, but I am still waiting for them to public condemn his racially-charged rhetoric. If they don't agree with what he said, they should be out there distancing themselves from this type of talk and condemning his ideas.

Unfortunately, the media caters to idiots like this. Pull the plug on programs like this and they will cease to exist.
 
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Cackalacky

Guest
Al Sharpton led anti-Semitic race riots in the 90s with doozies like "If the Jews want to get it on, tell them to pin their yarmulkes back and come over to my house." And he visits the White House, hosts Democratic rallies, etc. Let's get over the idiotic practice of pinning every controversial comment made by someone who once interviewed a candidate on the candidate himself.

Uhg .....In this instance its not idiotic to paint the Republican party with that brush and its definitely a Republican thing what that guy said. There is nothing he said can be aligned with liberals. He holds a right-wing position that the Republicans absolutely cater to because they have been since the turn of the century. I have posted about this before but see the Southern Strategy if you are unclear what has happened to the Republican party since then. It was a political strategy in the 1960s to grab the Southern White Democrat vote resulting in buffoons like this who now hold sway in local and state Republican outfits. He is not an isolated person and he is definitely not alone. He is actually influential in Iowa politics especially with the stature that Iowa holds in the elections.

I can't help that the Republicans have chose to align themselves with post-segregation conservatives. That's not a liberal problem. That is totally 100% a Republican Party problem, hence my post and the videos and links I posted.

AND AGAIN.... Republicans are not calling him out for saying such atrocious things. Why? Over half the country understands this guy is a fucking knuckledragger yet Ted Cruz runs as fast as he can to his show to score lame ass political points in the 1st primary state.

Republicans don't call these people out they
i-jump-in-it-o.gif
 
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Whiskeyjack

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The NYT's Ross Douthat just published an article titled "Pro-Choice Questions, Pro-Life Answers, Part II":

This the second part of my extended response to Katha Pollitt’s questions for abortion opponents, inspired by the still-ongoing release of Planned Parenthood sting videos; you can find the first half of my response here. If you like you can consider this a strange sort of counterprogramming for the global economy’s current China-driven jitters, and fear not: Full-spectrum Trump coverage will no doubt resume shortly.

Onward:

5. Men. You want to force women to carry every pregnancy to term, but the fact that men can easily walk away does not seem to interest you much. What are the responsibilities of men to avoid getting women pregnant, to support them while they are pregnant, to provide for mother and child? And what measures would you promote to enforce those responsibilities?

This is a strange accusation to lodge, for two reasons. First, political conservatives, pro-life and otherwise, have long been eager to talk critically about “deadbeat dads,” and over time the normal right-of-center bias in favor of states rights has been mostly set aside on this issue, and we’ve seen a steady federalization of child support enforcement that was consolidated in the 1996 welfare reform. Whether this has made for optimal policy is an open question, one that’s inevitably tangled up with the wider debate about the welfare state — since men who evade child support payments are often poor or incarcerated, and women who receive child support are less likely to receive public assistance. But the claim that abortion opponents aren’t “interested” in the issue and need to come up with some sort of tougher child support agenda doesn’t seem right at all; if anything, the de facto liberal view today seems to be that conservatives have become too aggressive about making low-income fathers pay child support, and need to ease off and let the welfare state take care of things instead.

Then second, it’s a strange accusation because one of the more commonplace pro-life arguments is that the current abortion regime is itself a gift to men who want “to easily walk away,” itself a legal and cultural enabler of male irresponsibility, on a profound, society-altering scale. Here pro-lifers are fond of citing (as I’ve been known to do) the famous Janet Yellen and George Akerlof paper linking legal abortion and rising out-of-wedlock birthrates, which suggested — quite reasonably, I think — that Roe dramatically changed male incentives around sex and marriage, and significantly weakened the relational power of women when they do get pregnant: “By making the birth of the child the physical choice of the mother,” they wrote, “the sexual revolution has made marriage and child support a social choice of the father.” That argument obviously need not imply pro-life conclusions; indeed, Akerlof and Yellen are themselves pro-choice. But it lends the pro-life view of things a certain coherence on this front: We believe in male responsibility, and we think that your preferred policies, not ours, are the ones that made it far too easy for men to wash their hands of their most primal, powerful, essential responsibilities.

6. Equality. Contraception and legal abortion have played a crucial part in enabling women to advance in education, the workplace, self-development and public life. How do you see women continuing to progress if they cannot control when they bear children? Do you think equality of the sexes is desirable? If so, how would you make it compatible with ill-timed pregnancy and motherhood? If not, what do you think is the appropriate place of women?

I addressed this by implication in my prior response, but I simply don’t accept your premise here. Not the harp (as it were) on the case of Ireland, but if unrestricted abortion were as essential to female advancement as you assume, you would expect a society with such outlying abortion laws to be an outlier (in a bad way) in terms of female opportunity, equality, and advancement. And you just don’t see that trend in cross-national comparisons; Ireland’s score in The Economist’s female opportunity rankings, to take just one for instance, is basically identical to the neighboring, much-more-abortion-friendly U.K.

Or forget Ireland and just look at the vast and complicated United States. Your list of questions for pro-lifers, like your recent book, is premised on the idea that our side has won major victories over the past few decades, both by passing various sorts of restrictions and by driving the real case for abortion rights into a kind of cultural underground. Obviously I think you’ve somewhat overstated our success, but it’s definitely true that the pro-life movement has made some real gains, culturally and legally, relative to the status quo in 1975. So over that same period, by your abortion-is-essential-to-female-advancement logic, you would expect those pro-life victories to produce steady female disempowerment. But the evidence isn’t there: The abortion rate has gone down, abortion has become more culturally taboo, more restrictions have been passed … and women have leaped past men in educational attainment, doubled their share of managerial and professional jobs, quadrupled the share of households in which they’re the primary or sole breadwinner (which is not necessarily a good thing, of course, but we’re talking about indicators of female independence), and so on down a much longer list. If America is more pro-life than it used to be (again, an arguable point but a plausible one), the era in which it’s become more pro-life seems to have been pretty good for female advancement overall.

And not surprisingly, given this overall cultural combination, the pro-life movement has itself also evolved over time: Its gender politics have always been more complicated than your side’s interpretation of the debate would suggest, but what we’ve seen over the last forty years is that pro-life sentiment has held steady even as religious-conservative opposition to women in the workforce, in politics and so on has essentially collapsed. As Jon Shields pointed out a few years ago, today “the average moderately pro-life citizen is a stronger supporter of gender equality than even the typical strongly pro-choice citizen was in the early 1980s.” Maybe all these pro-life citizens are just hopelessly deluded, but they — we — simply don’t see the necessary connection between abortion and the equality of the sexes that your side takes for granted.

Now I know the implications of the data on female advancement are hotly disputed among feminists, and that I’m implicitly taking the side of Hanna Rosin in an ongoing intra-liberal dispute about the patriarchy’s resilience. But I think we could even concede, for the sake of argument, that a kind of patriarchy is resilient at the highest levels of American society — in elite-level boardrooms and law firms, at the highest levels of the entertainment industry, in the halls of power in Washington D.C., and so on — and it still wouldn’t necessarily help your argument, because 1) these are some of the most pro-choice sectors of American society, 2) the women in these sectors have the easiest access to abortion, inevitably, of any demographic group, and 3) the biggest challenge facing women in these arenas to be their desire to have and rear children, not their inability to abort them. That’s the heart of the whole “having it all” debate, after all: Not whether elite women need better access to abortion but whether elite workplaces need to become more family-friendly, more flexible in their hours and demands, less inclined to pass over women who seem to be on a “mommy track,” so that their glass ceilings might be more easily shattered. Which is an important, complex debate — here’s what I wrote about it when Ann-Marie Slaughter’s piece came out — but not one, in the end, in which the pro-life movement’s recent gains are particularly implicated.

There’s a lot more to say about this topic, but at the broadest level my view is sketched out here: I think increased female economic opportunity is a great good, but that like previous gains for human welfare it need not be permanently associated with the collateral damage of the sexual revolution, and I think your side of the abortion debate is a bit like the cohort of Social Darwinists who assumed that the economic gains of the industrial revolution were so precious (and they were, indeed, precious!) that they required the terrible factory conditions, massive child labor, perpetually polluted skies and other dark-satanic-mills barbarisms that came in along with the 19th century rise in human wealth. From that fatalism I respectfully dissent, and I look forward to a future in which my daughters’ self-determination doesn’t need to bought with a kind of society-wide blood sacrifice of the unborn.

7. Personhood. You believe the fertilized egg is a person, with the same right to life as a baby or, for that matter, a 40-year-old. But abortion is not the only threat to this tiny being’s life. What about failure to implant, miscarriage and, of course, in vitro fertilization and stem cell research? (Well, actually you’ve managed to hamper that last item quite a bit.) Should IVF be banned if it destroys pre-embryos? Should every miscarriage be investigated, as is the death of a born child? Why focus exclusively on women’s behavior, when so much pre-birth death has other causes?

First, yes, a consistent pro-life position would require stricter regulations on IVF, of the kind that exist in some European countries but which most Americans are unlikely to support. And yes, it requires explicit bans on creating and destroying embryos for research purposes. But these issues differ, starkly, from miscarriage and the failure to implant for the same reason that the law treats homicide differently from the natural death that awaits all human life. And I also think they differ for another reason, which is a place where I tend to think (to anticipate your final question a little) that the pro-choice side does get something right: There is a right to human privacy, there are areas of human life that the state cannot police without becoming, well, a police state, and protecting every embryo from every possible threat to its well-being simply isn’t a role that the state can reasonably play. (Just as, in a different but related area, the state shouldn’t be in the business of overpolicing parenthood and trying to protect born children from every conceivable threat.)

With in utero life, the law should do what it can to prevent the deliberate, premeditated killing of embryos and fetuses, and I think there are many legal steps that can offer such protection without crushing the liberties of women. But miscarriage, while a tragedy, is not an injustice in the sense that deliberate killing is, and so attempted state regulation or pre-emption would be not only practically impossible but unreasonable and unjust. And in the gray area of the suspicious miscarriage that might be an abortion, I think that the state should generally err on the side of privacy and restraint and reserve its resources for the investigation of clearer cases.

Further: To the extent the pro-life laws, whether in the U.S. or abroad, are used to justify meticulous investigations along those lines, I oppose that kind of application, just as, while supporting a ban on assisted suicide, I don’t think the state have a policeman at every sickbed examining every medication that changes hands. And to the extent that law enforcement abuses its discretion in that scenario (as law enforcement, yes, tends to do), I would like to see pro-lifers join pro-choicers (as I think many would) in arguing for restraint. Which brings us to your next question …

8. Murder. If zygotes are people, abortion is infanticide, a very serious crime. Kevin Williamson, a correspondent for National Review, has said that women who have abortions should be hanged. That’s going pretty far. After all, if every woman who had an abortion were executed, who would raise the children? But if abortion becomes a crime, what do you think the punishment should be? I’m assuming you approve of jailing the provider, but what about the parent who makes the appointment, the man who pays, the friend who lends her car? Aren’t they accomplices? And what about the woman herself? No fair exempting her as a victim of coercion or manipulation or the culture of death. We take personal responsibility very seriously in this country. Patty Hearst went to prison despite being kidnapped, raped, locked in a closet and brainwashed into thinking her captors were her only friends. Our prisons are full of people whose obvious mental illness failed to move prosecutors or juries. Why should women who hire a fetal hit man get a pass?

This is the hardest and most reasonable question, and the place where I least expect my answer to convince. But here I think the pro-choice side of the argument, the argument for not making abortion illegal at all, rests on a belief that many pro-lifers actually share: That while abortion is killing, while it is murder, it is also associated with a situation, pregnancy, that’s unlike any other in human affairs, and as such requires a distinctive legal response. No other potential murderer has his victim inside his body, no other potential murder victim is not in some sense fully physically visible and present to his assailant and the world, no other human person presents herself (initially, in the first trimester) to her potential killer in what amounts to a pre-conscious state. And again: no other human experience is like pregnancy, period, whether or it comes expectedly or not.

These are not, in my view, strong arguments for the pro-choice view that we should license the killing of millions of unborn human beings. But I think they are strong arguments for maintaining the distinctive approach to enforcement that largely prevailed prior to Roe v. Wade, in which the law targeted abortionists and almost never prosecuted women. And I don’t think pro-lifers should be afraid to say that a pregnant woman’s decision to take a first-trimester life is simply a different kind of murder than the murder of a five-year-old, and one where the law should err on the side of mercy toward the woman herself in a way that it shouldn’t in other cases, and reserve the force of prosecution for the abortionist, the man or woman who isn’t experiencing the pregnancy, instead.

This approach is, yes, exceptional in terms of how the state treats homicide. But its “exception from the general rule seems to be justified by the wisdom of experience,” as a pre-Roe court ruling put it. And while — again — pregnancy is unique, it is not the only situation where older legal forms approached killing in distinctive ways. Suicide, for instance, was historically treated as a form of murder in many jurisdictions, but attempted suicides were hardly ever prosecuted for the attempted murder that they had committed, whereas people who assisted in suicide were more likely to be charged. And a version of that distinction survives today: Suicide itself has now been largely decriminalized but assisting a suicide is still illegal, though of course a subject of much culture-war controversy, in most U.S. states.

Could one argue that this combination is illogical — that if we don’t throw attempted suicides in jail we shouldn’t make it illegal to help them make their quietus? Certainly; this is an increasingly popular position. But I think the older position, which recognizes the reality that suicide is murder but also treats it distinctively and assigns legal culpability in a particular-to-that-distinction way, is actually the one more consonant with justice overall. And in a different-but-related way, the same is true for abortion: A just society needs to both recognize abortion as murder and grapple with its distinctives, and that’s what an effective pro-life legal regime would need to do.

9. Last Question. Are there any pro-choice arguments that resonate with you? Which ones?

To the arguments noted above I would briefly add that cases where the mother’s life is in danger clearly require a zone of medical flexibility that certain pro-life laws, or the overzealous enforcement of the same, might unduly shrink. And without being convinced by it, in cases of rape I think the famous Judith Jarvis Thomson thought experiment gains some real intuitive force, because it’s a case where the distinctiveness of pregnancy becomes radically more distinctive still. Which is why these are areas where I, like many pro-lifers, accept the necessity of some kind of political compromise even in a world where our ideas have mostly carried the day.

I’ll end there, with thanks for the questions, and hopeful that my answers have been clarifying if not, I’m sure, convincing.
 

Whiskeyjack

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The NYT's Ross Douthat just published an article titled "Pro-Choice Questions, Pro-Life Answers, Part II":

This the second part of my extended response to Katha Pollitt’s questions for abortion opponents, inspired by the still-ongoing release of Planned Parenthood sting videos; you can find the first half of my response here. If you like you can consider this a strange sort of counterprogramming for the global economy’s current China-driven jitters, and fear not: Full-spectrum Trump coverage will no doubt resume shortly.

Onward:

5. Men. You want to force women to carry every pregnancy to term, but the fact that men can easily walk away does not seem to interest you much. What are the responsibilities of men to avoid getting women pregnant, to support them while they are pregnant, to provide for mother and child? And what measures would you promote to enforce those responsibilities?

This is a strange accusation to lodge, for two reasons. First, political conservatives, pro-life and otherwise, have long been eager to talk critically about “deadbeat dads,” and over time the normal right-of-center bias in favor of states rights has been mostly set aside on this issue, and we’ve seen a steady federalization of child support enforcement that was consolidated in the 1996 welfare reform. Whether this has made for optimal policy is an open question, one that’s inevitably tangled up with the wider debate about the welfare state — since men who evade child support payments are often poor or incarcerated, and women who receive child support are less likely to receive public assistance. But the claim that abortion opponents aren’t “interested” in the issue and need to come up with some sort of tougher child support agenda doesn’t seem right at all; if anything, the de facto liberal view today seems to be that conservatives have become too aggressive about making low-income fathers pay child support, and need to ease off and let the welfare state take care of things instead.

Then second, it’s a strange accusation because one of the more commonplace pro-life arguments is that the current abortion regime is itself a gift to men who want “to easily walk away,” itself a legal and cultural enabler of male irresponsibility, on a profound, society-altering scale. Here pro-lifers are fond of citing (as I’ve been known to do) the famous Janet Yellen and George Akerlof paper linking legal abortion and rising out-of-wedlock birthrates, which suggested — quite reasonably, I think — that Roe dramatically changed male incentives around sex and marriage, and significantly weakened the relational power of women when they do get pregnant: “By making the birth of the child the physical choice of the mother,” they wrote, “the sexual revolution has made marriage and child support a social choice of the father.” That argument obviously need not imply pro-life conclusions; indeed, Akerlof and Yellen are themselves pro-choice. But it lends the pro-life view of things a certain coherence on this front: We believe in male responsibility, and we think that your preferred policies, not ours, are the ones that made it far too easy for men to wash their hands of their most primal, powerful, essential responsibilities.

6. Equality. Contraception and legal abortion have played a crucial part in enabling women to advance in education, the workplace, self-development and public life. How do you see women continuing to progress if they cannot control when they bear children? Do you think equality of the sexes is desirable? If so, how would you make it compatible with ill-timed pregnancy and motherhood? If not, what do you think is the appropriate place of women?

I addressed this by implication in my prior response, but I simply don’t accept your premise here. Not the harp (as it were) on the case of Ireland, but if unrestricted abortion were as essential to female advancement as you assume, you would expect a society with such outlying abortion laws to be an outlier (in a bad way) in terms of female opportunity, equality, and advancement. And you just don’t see that trend in cross-national comparisons; Ireland’s score in The Economist’s female opportunity rankings, to take just one for instance, is basically identical to the neighboring, much-more-abortion-friendly U.K.

Or forget Ireland and just look at the vast and complicated United States. Your list of questions for pro-lifers, like your recent book, is premised on the idea that our side has won major victories over the past few decades, both by passing various sorts of restrictions and by driving the real case for abortion rights into a kind of cultural underground. Obviously I think you’ve somewhat overstated our success, but it’s definitely true that the pro-life movement has made some real gains, culturally and legally, relative to the status quo in 1975. So over that same period, by your abortion-is-essential-to-female-advancement logic, you would expect those pro-life victories to produce steady female disempowerment. But the evidence isn’t there: The abortion rate has gone down, abortion has become more culturally taboo, more restrictions have been passed … and women have leaped past men in educational attainment, doubled their share of managerial and professional jobs, quadrupled the share of households in which they’re the primary or sole breadwinner (which is not necessarily a good thing, of course, but we’re talking about indicators of female independence), and so on down a much longer list. If America is more pro-life than it used to be (again, an arguable point but a plausible one), the era in which it’s become more pro-life seems to have been pretty good for female advancement overall.

And not surprisingly, given this overall cultural combination, the pro-life movement has itself also evolved over time: Its gender politics have always been more complicated than your side’s interpretation of the debate would suggest, but what we’ve seen over the last forty years is that pro-life sentiment has held steady even as religious-conservative opposition to women in the workforce, in politics and so on has essentially collapsed. As Jon Shields pointed out a few years ago, today “the average moderately pro-life citizen is a stronger supporter of gender equality than even the typical strongly pro-choice citizen was in the early 1980s.” Maybe all these pro-life citizens are just hopelessly deluded, but they — we — simply don’t see the necessary connection between abortion and the equality of the sexes that your side takes for granted.

Now I know the implications of the data on female advancement are hotly disputed among feminists, and that I’m implicitly taking the side of Hanna Rosin in an ongoing intra-liberal dispute about the patriarchy’s resilience. But I think we could even concede, for the sake of argument, that a kind of patriarchy is resilient at the highest levels of American society — in elite-level boardrooms and law firms, at the highest levels of the entertainment industry, in the halls of power in Washington D.C., and so on — and it still wouldn’t necessarily help your argument, because 1) these are some of the most pro-choice sectors of American society, 2) the women in these sectors have the easiest access to abortion, inevitably, of any demographic group, and 3) the biggest challenge facing women in these arenas to be their desire to have and rear children, not their inability to abort them. That’s the heart of the whole “having it all” debate, after all: Not whether elite women need better access to abortion but whether elite workplaces need to become more family-friendly, more flexible in their hours and demands, less inclined to pass over women who seem to be on a “mommy track,” so that their glass ceilings might be more easily shattered. Which is an important, complex debate — here’s what I wrote about it when Ann-Marie Slaughter’s piece came out — but not one, in the end, in which the pro-life movement’s recent gains are particularly implicated.

There’s a lot more to say about this topic, but at the broadest level my view is sketched out here: I think increased female economic opportunity is a great good, but that like previous gains for human welfare it need not be permanently associated with the collateral damage of the sexual revolution, and I think your side of the abortion debate is a bit like the cohort of Social Darwinists who assumed that the economic gains of the industrial revolution were so precious (and they were, indeed, precious!) that they required the terrible factory conditions, massive child labor, perpetually polluted skies and other dark-satanic-mills barbarisms that came in along with the 19th century rise in human wealth. From that fatalism I respectfully dissent, and I look forward to a future in which my daughters’ self-determination doesn’t need to bought with a kind of society-wide blood sacrifice of the unborn.

7. Personhood. You believe the fertilized egg is a person, with the same right to life as a baby or, for that matter, a 40-year-old. But abortion is not the only threat to this tiny being’s life. What about failure to implant, miscarriage and, of course, in vitro fertilization and stem cell research? (Well, actually you’ve managed to hamper that last item quite a bit.) Should IVF be banned if it destroys pre-embryos? Should every miscarriage be investigated, as is the death of a born child? Why focus exclusively on women’s behavior, when so much pre-birth death has other causes?

First, yes, a consistent pro-life position would require stricter regulations on IVF, of the kind that exist in some European countries but which most Americans are unlikely to support. And yes, it requires explicit bans on creating and destroying embryos for research purposes. But these issues differ, starkly, from miscarriage and the failure to implant for the same reason that the law treats homicide differently from the natural death that awaits all human life. And I also think they differ for another reason, which is a place where I tend to think (to anticipate your final question a little) that the pro-choice side does get something right: There is a right to human privacy, there are areas of human life that the state cannot police without becoming, well, a police state, and protecting every embryo from every possible threat to its well-being simply isn’t a role that the state can reasonably play. (Just as, in a different but related area, the state shouldn’t be in the business of overpolicing parenthood and trying to protect born children from every conceivable threat.)

With in utero life, the law should do what it can to prevent the deliberate, premeditated killing of embryos and fetuses, and I think there are many legal steps that can offer such protection without crushing the liberties of women. But miscarriage, while a tragedy, is not an injustice in the sense that deliberate killing is, and so attempted state regulation or pre-emption would be not only practically impossible but unreasonable and unjust. And in the gray area of the suspicious miscarriage that might be an abortion, I think that the state should generally err on the side of privacy and restraint and reserve its resources for the investigation of clearer cases.

Further: To the extent the pro-life laws, whether in the U.S. or abroad, are used to justify meticulous investigations along those lines, I oppose that kind of application, just as, while supporting a ban on assisted suicide, I don’t think the state have a policeman at every sickbed examining every medication that changes hands. And to the extent that law enforcement abuses its discretion in that scenario (as law enforcement, yes, tends to do), I would like to see pro-lifers join pro-choicers (as I think many would) in arguing for restraint. Which brings us to your next question …

8. Murder. If zygotes are people, abortion is infanticide, a very serious crime. Kevin Williamson, a correspondent for National Review, has said that women who have abortions should be hanged. That’s going pretty far. After all, if every woman who had an abortion were executed, who would raise the children? But if abortion becomes a crime, what do you think the punishment should be? I’m assuming you approve of jailing the provider, but what about the parent who makes the appointment, the man who pays, the friend who lends her car? Aren’t they accomplices? And what about the woman herself? No fair exempting her as a victim of coercion or manipulation or the culture of death. We take personal responsibility very seriously in this country. Patty Hearst went to prison despite being kidnapped, raped, locked in a closet and brainwashed into thinking her captors were her only friends. Our prisons are full of people whose obvious mental illness failed to move prosecutors or juries. Why should women who hire a fetal hit man get a pass?

This is the hardest and most reasonable question, and the place where I least expect my answer to convince. But here I think the pro-choice side of the argument, the argument for not making abortion illegal at all, rests on a belief that many pro-lifers actually share: That while abortion is killing, while it is murder, it is also associated with a situation, pregnancy, that’s unlike any other in human affairs, and as such requires a distinctive legal response. No other potential murderer has his victim inside his body, no other potential murder victim is not in some sense fully physically visible and present to his assailant and the world, no other human person presents herself (initially, in the first trimester) to her potential killer in what amounts to a pre-conscious state. And again: no other human experience is like pregnancy, period, whether or it comes expectedly or not.

These are not, in my view, strong arguments for the pro-choice view that we should license the killing of millions of unborn human beings. But I think they are strong arguments for maintaining the distinctive approach to enforcement that largely prevailed prior to Roe v. Wade, in which the law targeted abortionists and almost never prosecuted women. And I don’t think pro-lifers should be afraid to say that a pregnant woman’s decision to take a first-trimester life is simply a different kind of murder than the murder of a five-year-old, and one where the law should err on the side of mercy toward the woman herself in a way that it shouldn’t in other cases, and reserve the force of prosecution for the abortionist, the man or woman who isn’t experiencing the pregnancy, instead.

This approach is, yes, exceptional in terms of how the state treats homicide. But its “exception from the general rule seems to be justified by the wisdom of experience,” as a pre-Roe court ruling put it. And while — again — pregnancy is unique, it is not the only situation where older legal forms approached killing in distinctive ways. Suicide, for instance, was historically treated as a form of murder in many jurisdictions, but attempted suicides were hardly ever prosecuted for the attempted murder that they had committed, whereas people who assisted in suicide were more likely to be charged. And a version of that distinction survives today: Suicide itself has now been largely decriminalized but assisting a suicide is still illegal, though of course a subject of much culture-war controversy, in most U.S. states.

Could one argue that this combination is illogical — that if we don’t throw attempted suicides in jail we shouldn’t make it illegal to help them make their quietus? Certainly; this is an increasingly popular position. But I think the older position, which recognizes the reality that suicide is murder but also treats it distinctively and assigns legal culpability in a particular-to-that-distinction way, is actually the one more consonant with justice overall. And in a different-but-related way, the same is true for abortion: A just society needs to both recognize abortion as murder and grapple with its distinctives, and that’s what an effective pro-life legal regime would need to do.

9. Last Question. Are there any pro-choice arguments that resonate with you? Which ones?

To the arguments noted above I would briefly add that cases where the mother’s life is in danger clearly require a zone of medical flexibility that certain pro-life laws, or the overzealous enforcement of the same, might unduly shrink. And without being convinced by it, in cases of rape I think the famous Judith Jarvis Thomson thought experiment gains some real intuitive force, because it’s a case where the distinctiveness of pregnancy becomes radically more distinctive still. Which is why these are areas where I, like many pro-lifers, accept the necessity of some kind of political compromise even in a world where our ideas have mostly carried the day.

I’ll end there, with thanks for the questions, and hopeful that my answers have been clarifying if not, I’m sure, convincing.
 

Irish YJ

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I've never heard of the loon.

I'd venture to say that there are a lot of radio shows in Iowa that GOP candidates frequent.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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A "prominent talk show host in IOWA" who no one has ever heard of? Give me a break. What does Iowa have, about three or four radio hosts in the whole state?

This guy is clearly a moron, but he doesn't speak for all conservatives and has zero to little influence on the party, its principles, or its candidates. My guess is candidates like Cruz, Rubio, and Carson would set this straight.
 
C

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A "prominent talk show host in IOWA" who no one has ever heard of? Give me a break. What does Iowa have, about three or four radio hosts in the whole state?

This guy is clearly a moron, but he doesn't speak for all conservatives and has zero to little influence on the party, its principles, or its candidates. My guess is candidates like Cruz, Rubio, and Carson would set this straight.

The republican presidential nominees have made 40 appearances on his show this year alone. He is quite clearly somebody they feel the need to appear with. I think you underestimate Iowa's importance as the first primary state. Of course he doesn't speak for ALL conservatives but if you think he only reflects some small disparate percentage of conservatives you are fooling yourself and you can't see the problem The Republicans really have.

They arent making it straight though. Cruz went on AFTER he said those things and nothing was said. I am guessing Fox News isn't reporting on this either. I wouldn't know but from the responses I have gotten so far it sounds like they have not been.
 

wizards8507

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The republican presidential nominees have made 40 appearances on his show this year alone. He is quite clearly somebody they feel the need to appear with. I think you underestimate Iowa's importance as the first primary state. Of course he doesn't speak for ALL conservatives but if you think he only reflects some small disparate percentage of conservatives you are fooling yourself and you can't see the problem The Republicans really have.

They arent making it straight though. Cruz went on AFTER he said those things and nothing was said. I am guessing Fox News isn't reporting on this either. I wouldn't know but from the responses I have gotten so far it sounds like they have not been.
Who gives a shit if they went on his show? Obama has been on The O'Reilly Factor yet I'd venture a guess that he doesn't share all of Bill's political opinions. Appearing on a show doesn't mean you endorse the host's opinions, nor are you obligated to publicly denounce them.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.
 
C

Cackalacky

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Who gives a shit if they went on his show? Obama has been on The O'Reilly Factor yet I'd venture a guess that he doesn't share all of Bill's political opinions. Appearing on a show doesn't mean you endorse the host's opinions, nor are you obligated to publicly denounce them.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

I do.Very much so. I give lots of massive shits. Especially when a possible presidential candidate is sharing a Mike with a person who thinks a viable solution to the immigration problem is SLAVERY. Haha it's amazing watching the mental gymnastics trying to reconcile this stuff. That is a bad dude.
 
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wizards8507

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I do.Very much so. I give lots of massive shits. Especially when a possible presidential candidate is sharing a Mike with a person who thinks a viable solution to the immigration is SLAVERY.
You completely ignored my previous post. President Obama has appeared numerous times with Al Sharpton, noted anti-Semite. Where's your outrage there?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.
 

pkt77242

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A "prominent talk show host in IOWA" who no one has ever heard of? Give me a break. What does Iowa have, about three or four radio hosts in the whole state?

This guy is clearly a moron, but he doesn't speak for all conservatives and has zero to little influence on the party, its principles, or its candidates. My guess is candidates like Cruz, Rubio, and Carson would set this straight.

You can say that all you want but the truth is that Iowa plays a prominent role in picking the Presidential nominees (in fact the first few have very prominent roles), so if he is a big time talk show host in Iowa it is important.


ETA: That is why all of these candidates are going on his show, because he is large audience in Iowa and Iowa is important to getting the nomination.
 
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Polish Leppy 22

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The republican presidential nominees have made 40 appearances on his show this year alone. He is quite clearly somebody they feel the need to appear with. I think you underestimate Iowa's importance as the first primary state. Of course he doesn't speak for ALL conservatives but if you think he only reflects some small disparate percentage of conservatives you are fooling yourself and you can't see the problem The Republicans really have.

They arent making it straight though. Cruz went on AFTER he said those things and nothing was said. I am guessing Fox News isn't reporting on this either. I wouldn't know but from the responses I have gotten so far it sounds like they have not been.

Wizards beat me to it.

Iowa is an important primary state, but a talk show host no one knows isn't going to move the needle no matter what he/she says.

If it were Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levin, or Hannity it'd be a different conversation. That's not the case.
 
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