Political Correctness thread

[BleedBlueGold]

I'm a strict plumbing guy on this topic unless the facilities are constructed to accomodate gender neutral use...if you have a penis...you use the mens locker room...you don't...off to the womens locker room you go...if that is tramatic, here is a counselor for you to work with.

This is where I am on the subject.

I think it's crazy the government is telling people where they can and can't go to the bathroom in the first place. Didn't politifact recently show a massive report proving that incidents are extremely rare, so why are we even addressing this? (My recollection could be wrong on that.) Anyways, since it is being addressed...I'm with you. Entact penis = Mens room. Otherwise, women's room.

The official response to this position is that you're a bigot.

I can't believe how anyone can, in good faith, defend the hard left's position on this issue. "A teenager with a penis should shower with the boys" is not a statement of hate or bigotry. It's common sense.

I agree it's common sense.

To repeat:

If you're a born male who identifies as a woman, yet have not had a procedure done, you should still be going to the mens room. Maybe we should just call them Penis Rooms and Vagina Rooms? That'll clear up everything.

 

[GoldenDome]

I think that this is a major misconception for those on the left: every issue where Conservatives disagree with Leftists, the Leftists automatically assume (or at least claim) that it's because of bigotry, racism, hatred, and etc. It's the automatic go-to answer for everything and makes a neat little explanation without having to actually examine or think about the actual reasons those ideas or policies are opposed.

Conservatives aren't against millions of Mexicans illegally flooding our country because we hate Hispanics. We're against it for exactly the same reasons you'd be opposed to a dozen uninvited strangers invading your home and demanding that you accommodate them.

Conservatives aren't against unlimited, endless welfare because we hate Blacks or the poor. We're against it because it's bad for them in the long run as it makes them permanently dependent, destroys their self-reliance, and there's no justification for hard-working people to be forced to permanently support those who are perfectly capable of working and self-reliance, but consistently make poor life choices and refuse to do anything to improve their lot.

As such, opposition to allowing transgender people to use any restroom they choose has nothing to do with hate, bigotry, or misunderstanding towards them. It has everything to do with opposition to being forced to pretend their delusions are valid instead of the symptom of a known and well-established psychological disorder that calls for humane treatment, the invasion of privacy that most of us would like to enjoy, the disregard for the rights that afford us that privacy, and not wanting rapists, perverts, and child molesters gaining easy access to women's restrooms by pretending to be transgender.

Why do you automatically lump Mexicans with illegal immigration and Blacks with being poor? It is this kind of associative thinking that undermines your dissociative prose. Surely immigration is nuanced with many ethnicities. And if conservatives truly held genuine and authentic beliefs of family values, they would not want to break up families and leave fatherless American children stateside.

And this last statement is just made up. There is no empirical evidence of sexual predators doing this and based solely of emotional thinking. One of the weakest arguments is the slippery slope so just stop. It holds no weight. And if you live in these same bed wetting fantasies, then why give these same sexual predators unfettered access to guns? In fact, why give potential terrorists access to guns if saving lives an agenda. Hypocrisy? Of course.

 

[wizards8507]

Why do you automatically lump Mexicans with illegal immigration and Blacks with being poor? It is this kind of associative thinking that undermines your dissociative prose. Surely immigration is nuanced with many ethnicities. And if conservatives truly held genuine and authentic beliefs of family values, they would not want to break up families and leave fatherless American children stateside.

Holy shit, he's not making those generalizations. People like you who accuse conservatives of bigotry are the ones who make those generalizations. Conservatives view people as individuals, liberals view people as constituency groups.

And this last statement is just made up. There is no empirical evidence of sexual predators doing this and based solely of emotional thinking. One of the weakest arguments is the slippery slope so just stop. It holds no weight. And if you live in these same bed wetting fantasies, then why give these same sexual predators unfettered access to guns? In fact, why give potential terrorists access to guns if saving lives an agenda. Hypocrisy? Of course.

Answer the question that I've put forward to every liberal on this topic. Where do you suggest a transgender female (biological male with a penis) shower and change after gym class?

The ONLY answer that's not been labeled as "bigotry" by the trans lobby is "that person should shower in the common shower and change in the same locker rooms as anyone else who identifies as female, regardless of genitalia."

 

[phgreek]

The official response to this position is that you're a bigot.

I can't believe how anyone can, in good faith, defend the hard left's position on this issue. "A teenager with a penis should shower with the boys" is not a statement of hate or bigotry. It's common sense.

I'm ok with labels being applied to me...1) I'm not trying to get laid 2) I'm pretty comfortable with my approach to life...3) not trying to get elected...


So if some smarmy lefty calls me a bigot...meh, I'll be ok.

 

[Legacy]

Answer the question that I've put forward to every liberal on this topic. Where do you suggest a transgender female (biological male with a penis) shower and change after gym class?

I'll answer for them, though I am a spokesperson for none. I admit to being opinion-neutral on this subject. I suppose that's not politically correct, but I am firm in my belief that no one should be subjected to the beliefs of others. We have bigger issues to resolve.

 

[GoldenDome]

Holy shit, he's not making those generalizations. People like you who accuse conservatives of bigotry are the ones who make those generalizations. Conservatives view people as individuals, liberals view people as constituency groups.


Answer the question that I've put forward to every liberal on this topic. Where do you suggest a transgender female (biological male with a penis) shower and change after gym class?

The ONLY answer that's not been labeled as "bigotry" by the trans lobby is "that person should shower in the common shower and change in the same locker rooms as anyone else who identifies as female, regardless of genitalia."

I never accused anyone of being a bigot. Just pointing out language being used. Bias thinking most likely, but not bigoted , I would hope.

And did you just generalize all liberals and conservatives into a sole type of thinking? Nice.

 

[wizards8507]

I'll answer for them, though I am a spokesperson for none. I admit to being opinion-neutral on this subject. I suppose that's not politically correct, but I am firm in my belief that no one should be subjected to the beliefs of others. We have bigger issues to resolve.

Reality is not subject to the whims of belief. A person with an X chromosome, a Y chromosome, and a penis is a male. That's not a belief. That's a statement of fact, as real as gravity and as true as 2 + 2 = 4.

Do you support an anorexic person's decision to starve themselves? How about the dragon lady's belief that she's a dragon? Their delusions are just as real as those with gender dysphoria. Why do you indulge one delusion but (presumably) recognize the others as mental illness?

 

[IrishLion]

Reality is not subject to the whims of belief. A person with an X chromosome, a Y chromosome, and a penis is a male. That's not a belief. That's a statement of fact, as real as gravity and as true as 2 + 2 = 4.

Do you support an anorexic person's decision to starve themselves? How about the dragon lady's belief that she's a dragon? Their delusions are just as real as those with gender dysphoria. Why do you indulge one delusion but (presumably) recognize the others as mental illness?

Anorexia is a true illness, and is physically unhealthy for the individual.

The dragon-lady comparison is *kind of* legitimate for discussion, but not the bolded, IMO.

 

[wizards8507]

Anorexia is a true illness...

So was gender dysphoria, until it became politically incorrect to say so.

...and is physically unhealthy for the individual.

Like genital mutilation and artificial hormone therapy?

 

[IrishLion]

Like genital mutilation and artificial hormone therapy?

I don't think sex-change surgeries count as genital mutilation. I know that there are changes being made to certain bodily functions, but I see it as closer to breast augmentation or any reconstructive surgery that are all viewed as "acceptable." You are physically changing yourself to look a certain way, but you are doing it through approved and safe surgical processes.

That is not in the same ballpark as someone literally killing themselves via Anorexia.

 

[wizards8507]

I don't think sex-change surgeries count as genital mutilation. I know that there are changes being made to certain bodily functions, but I see it as closer to breast augmentation or any reconstructive surgery that are all viewed as "acceptable." You are physically changing yourself to look a certain way, but you are doing it through approved and safe surgical processes.

That is not in the same ballpark as someone literally killing themselves via Anorexia.

I disagree, but even if I concede the point...

I still don't think we should encourage mental illness just because the mental illness doesn't lead to physical harm.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Why do you automatically lump Mexicans with illegal immigration and Blacks with being poor?

Umm, because Liberals constantly accuse Conservatives of hating Mexicans when we denounce rampant illegal immigration (and the overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants to this country come from Mexico) and accuse us of being anti-Black when we denounce never-ending welfare for people perfectly capable of supporting themselves? The Left has made those terms part of the discussion. Don't complain when we use them in our reply.

And if conservatives truly held genuine and authentic beliefs of family values, they would not want to break up families and leave fatherless American children stateside.

Don't come here illegally in the first place. If you do and get deported, take your children back with you. If a bunch of people just moved into your home without your permission and had children, would that make them part of your family or make you responsible for raising them?

And this last statement is just made up.

No, none of it is made up or a bed wetting fantasy. It's logical, factual, and very realistic, which is why it makes Liberals' heads explode.

 

[JTLA]

I've asked this of others in other threads, and still haven't gotten a satisfactory answer. I've said before that I think the bathroom argument is a red herring for the bigger issue, school locker rooms.

Where would you have a trans female (biological male with a penis) shower and change after gym class?

Why do we have shared public locker / dressing rooms anywhere in society? Am I as a man at any more risk to be violated by a transgender woman than a homosexual man or a pedophile? I can't reasonably expect privacy from any predators regardless of which locker room anyone uses. Penn State campers can attest to that.

Yes the costs of changing our use of showering / changing / dressing areas would be costly, but I believe it is necessary - and it really has little to do with trans people. It has to do with privacy that all people should be entitled too. We just haven't come to grips with that.

 

[NorthDakota]

Why do we have shared public locker / dressing rooms anywhere in society? Am I as a man at any more risk to be violated by a transgender woman than a homosexual man or a pedophile? I can't reasonably expect privacy from any predators regardless of which locker room anyone uses. Penn State campers can attest to that.

Yes the costs of changing our use of showering / changing / dressing areas would be costly, but I believe it is necessary - and it really has little to do with trans people. It has to do with privacy that all people should be entitled too. We just haven't come to grips with that.

Have you ever been in a locker room??

 

[JTLA]

My real question is, why do conservative men want to shower with trans women so badly? LOL.

If you dress and represent yourself as a woman, you should be treated as such. Genitalia has nothing to do with this issue! I encourage you all to meet someone who is dealing with this and understand their situation.

A person dressing and presenting as a woman going in a men's locker room is far more likely to result in a conflict than if you just let these people live their lives.

A person pretending to be trans in order to gain access to the opposite gender's restroom can still be prosecuted for any number of crimes if women complain about their presence or behavior.

Let me know when this is a real problem and then you can try to pass these hate driven laws.

 

[JTLA]

Have you ever been in a locker room??

Yes of course. Can I share one with you sweetie pie?

 

[wizards8507]

A person dressing and presenting as a woman going in a men's locker room is far more likely to result in a conflict than if you just let these people live their lives.

That's a great theory... until the other women in the locker room see a penis.

 

[TDHeysus]

come on everyone, lets not hurt anyone's feelings. No one can have the opinion that Golson is a quitter. That will get you a breakdown of why your wrong, and someone else is right. Because If your opinion can be broke down with a paragraph response, then you must be wrong. Plus, all your doing is just hurting Golson's feelings.

The same thing in the demetris Robertson thread. He was just simply making sure he covered all bases when making his decision(except the cal sign), anyone who had anything disparaging to say about him was just wrong. Think of how Demetris would feel if he read your comments.

...and btw, Johnny Manziel isn't doing anything that a normal young kid wouldnt do as well....lets not have opinions of Johnny Football that may hurt his feelings too.

 

[IrishLax]

My real question is, why do conservative men want to shower with trans women so badly? LOL.

If you dress and represent yourself as a woman, you should be treated as such. Genitalia has nothing to do with this issue! I encourage you all to meet someone who is dealing with this and understand their situation.

A person dressing and presenting as a woman going in a men's locker room is far more likely to result in a conflict than if you just let these people live their lives.

A person pretending to be trans in order to gain access to the opposite gender's restroom can still be prosecuted for any number of crimes if women complain about their presence or behavior.

Let me know when this is a real problem and then you can try to pass these hate driven laws.

Yeah I'm sorry I think this whole debate is pretty worthless so I haven't weighed in... but the bolded is just absurd.

Taking this whole thing to its extreme that "genitalia doesn't matter" and applying it to, say, a middle school PE locker room where biological women with vaginas are getting their periods for the first time and saying it'd be totally fine with no issues because genitalia doesn't matter to have biological men with penises changing and/or showering together defies common sense.

And with that, I'm back to not participating in this truly ridiculous waste of time.

PS. I have a post-op trans friend who went to ND. I'm not taking a side on bathroom usage, I'm just saying that the idea that genitalia "doesn't matter" and that there would be "no issues" (especially when applied to younger children) makes absolutely no sense and makes me question if you 1) ever went to middle school 2) have ever interacted with a girl going through puberty.

 

[GoldenDome]

Don't come here illegally in the first place.

Ironic.

No, none of it is made up or a bed wetting fantasy. It's logical, factual, and very realistic, which is why it makes Liberals' heads explode.

Present the facts. Is there any empirical evidence of rapists dressing like women and going into bathrooms to prey on victims? And to infer that only liberals are illogical is quite naive. Many religious conservatives still think Jesus is coming back to earth. Because Sarah Palin is the bastion of logic and reason.

 

[GoldenDome]

Yeah I'm sorry I think this whole debate is pretty worthless so I haven't weighed in... but the bolded is just absurd.

Taking this whole thing to its extreme that "genitalia doesn't matter" and applying it to, say, a middle school PE locker room where biological women with vaginas are getting their periods for the first time and saying it'd be totally fine with no issues because genitalia doesn't matter to have biological men with penises changing and/or showering together defies common sense.

And with that, I'm back to not participating in this truly ridiculous waste of time.

PS. I have a post-op trans friend who went to ND. I'm not taking a side on bathroom usage, I'm just saying that the idea that genitalia "doesn't matter" and that there would be "no issues" (especially when applied to younger children) makes absolutely no sense and makes me question if you 1) ever went to middle school 2) have ever interacted with a girl going through puberty.

The most logical statement on this topic.

I'm out too.

 

[GoldenDome]

On another topic, those who claim to be against PC, at what point is PC a good thing vs diminishing returns?

For instance, I would never present swastikas to a Jew or call a black person a nigger. Where is the line drawn? I know many won't even use the n word, even in a purely neutral context.

One of my nephews has Down syndrome and he has encountered grown adults calling him retard. IMO, that is too far.

So where is the line, because even the most fervent anti-PC person has a limit? I think.

 

[Irish YJ]

I'll just leave this here... Anyone in Charlotte able to confirm/deny/add?

https://www.nccivitas.org/civitas-review/charlotte-observer-ignored-sex-offender-status-of-transgender-bathroom-champion/

For months, residents of Charlotte have been debating whether the city should (or in fact could) pass an ordinance allowing individuals who identify as transgender to use the men’s or women’s bathrooms in places of public accommodation. Those opposed to the ordinance have had serious concerns about its effect on public safety.

This morning, Breitbart News is reporting that Chad Sevearance, president of the Charlotte Business Guild, who has taken a lead role in promoting the transgender bathroom ordinance, is a convicted and registered sex offender:

“
In 1998, Sevearance worked as a youth minister and in that capacity allegedly lured younger men to his apartment to spend the night where Severance showed them pornography and tried to talk them into sex. One boy testified that he woke up to find Severance “fondling him.” Sevearance was convicted on one charge of sexual molestation of a minor.

As a result of his 2000 conviction, Sevearance must register with the police on a regular basis for a minimum of ten years. His most recent mug shot and registration took place at the end of last year.

A reporter with the Charlotte Observer confirmed for Breitbart News that the Chad Sevearance they frequently quote is the same man who was convicted for sexual assault of a minor in 2000.

You read that right. The Charlotte Observer knew that Sevearance was a convicted sex offender, and yet never mentioned it once in its reporting. The newspaper certainly knew about this since at least February 18, when DontDoItCharlotte.com put out a report. (Though, considering that this information is discoverable with a quick google search, the paper likely knew about it before then, not to mention that his advocacy group also knew he was a convicted child molester and defended him by calling reports of his convictions “mudslinging.”)

In this context, The Charlotte Observer‘s failure to disclose these facts in its reporting is inexcusable. It constitutes clear advocacy masked as journalism.

This is not about further condemnation of Sevearance for his sexual offenses. The justice system has dealt with him, and it is not my place to heap further condemnation on a man who surely has been thoroughly condemned. This is about the Observer‘s failure to report on how a major figure at the center of a debate involving sexual predators and children has been convicted of being a sexual predator of children. In this context, the Observer‘s failure is tantamount to concealment. It is unfortunately one more example of our media picking and choosing its causes, leaving the task of actual journalism up to Internet news outlets.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Present the facts. Is there any empirical evidence of rapists dressing like women and going into bathrooms to prey on victims? And to infer that only liberals are illogical is quite naive. Many religious conservatives still think Jesus is coming back to earth. Because Sarah Palin is the bastion of logic and reason.

First, I'm not Sarah Palin and what she believes or doesn't believe has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. No, liberals aren't the only illogical folks around, but when you guys start spouting your out of touch with reality views based on emotions and wishful thinking and someone points out cold hard facts that show why you're out of touch with reality, you folks tend to get a bit emotional and upset and start shouting insults instead of discussing facts.

The whole "which room should they pee/shower/change clothes in" thing has only become a big issue in the last few months, so there's little empirical evidence to support either side. However, none of us need a 3-year Federal study to understand that most people are going to be rather uncomfortable with someone of the opposite sex in their bathroom or locker room, and it's certainly not irrational to expect there to be many instances in the coming months of child molesters, perverts, flashers, and rapists using the "pee where you want" laws to gain easy access to restrooms, locker rooms and such by claiming they're transgender so that they can engage in their inappropriate behavior of choice.

 

[JTLA]

I'll just leave this here... Anyone in Charlotte able to confirm/deny/add?

https://www.nccivitas.org/civitas-review/charlotte-observer-ignored-sex-offender-status-of-transgender-bathroom-champion/

So you want to make sure that Chad only can use the restroom with you and little boys?

Or wait... you want to protect little girls, but little boys will be just fine. Chad thanks you for that reasoning, so does Jerry Sandusky, so does Dennis Hastert, and so does the Catholic church for that matter.

Or wait... wait... what does any of this have to do with where people are allowed to pee? Stop hiding your hatred and intolerance of others behind a bullshit law that doesn't address any real problems.

 

[JTLA]

Yeah I'm sorry I think this whole debate is pretty worthless so I haven't weighed in... but the bolded is just absurd.

Taking this whole thing to its extreme that "genitalia doesn't matter" and applying it to, say, a middle school PE locker room where biological women with vaginas are getting their periods for the first time and saying it'd be totally fine with no issues because genitalia doesn't matter to have biological men with penises changing and/or showering together defies common sense.

And with that, I'm back to not participating in this truly ridiculous waste of time.

PS. I have a post-op trans friend who went to ND. I'm not taking a side on bathroom usage, I'm just saying that the idea that genitalia "doesn't matter" and that there would be "no issues" (especially when applied to younger children) makes absolutely no sense and makes me question if you 1) ever went to middle school 2) have ever interacted with a girl going through puberty.

Yes to your questions, thanks for asking.

Your post-op friends should tell you that they are in the stark minority. Most trans people don't ever change genitalia, it actually has very little to do with their identity. That's what I meant by genitalia doesn't matter. The fact that most people don't understand that has a lot to do with the hatred and ignorance directed at trans people.

No one is suggesting that trans girls at an age of adolescence are going to want to change openly with... well anyone for that matter. Are you suggesting they would be better off in the boys locker room? Are you that disconnected with the reality these people face? They would be bullied and beaten faster than you can say Boys Don't Cry. Most likely, people going through this at an adolescent school age are going to find a private place to change.

These laws are about where you can pee. When was the last time you saw any penis in the bathroom anywhere? Why would you care if the person using the toilet in the stall next to you had a penis or not? I sure don't want to know.

 

[JTLA]

First, I'm not Sarah Palin and what she believes or doesn't believe has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. No, liberals aren't the only illogical folks around, but when you guys start spouting your out of touch with reality views based on emotions and wishful thinking and someone points out cold hard facts that show why you're out of touch with reality, you folks tend to get a bit emotional and upset and start shouting insults instead of discussing facts.

The whole "which room should they pee/shower/change clothes in" thing has only become a big issue in the last few months, so there's little empirical evidence to support either side. However, none of us need a 3-year Federal study to understand that most people are going to be rather uncomfortable with someone of the opposite sex in their bathroom or locker room, and it's certainly not irrational to expect there to be many instances in the coming months of child molesters, perverts, flashers, and rapists using the "pee where you want" laws to gain easy access to restrooms, locker rooms and such by claiming they're transgender so that they can engage in their inappropriate behavior of choice.

You couldn't be more wrong. It's COMPLETELY IRRATIONAL to think that child molesters, perverts, flashers, and rapists will do anything differently because of laws allowing trans people to pee where they want.

Trans people have been around forever. They have been peeing in your midst since you were born! What is changing is that laws are being created to discriminate against them. Striking down these laws will in no way allow child molesters, perverts, flashers, and rapists any more access than they already have. It's still against the law - even if they match your gender for people to molest, perve, flash, and rape.

This is so dumb I can't believe you guys can't just own up to your fear and hatred for something that's different.

I am genuinely sorry I derailed the PC thread. I'm all on board to make fun of PC stuff run amuck. I thought it would be valuable to share my story. My encounter certainly opened my eyes.

Can we all just agree to make fun of safe zones and microagressions and SJW? Maybe then we can all pee in peace.

 

[IrishLax]

Yes to your questions, thanks for asking.

Your post-op friends should tell you that they are in the stark minority. Most trans people don't ever change genitalia, it actually has very little to do with their identity. That's what I meant by genitalia doesn't matter. The fact that most people don't understand that has a lot to do with the hatred and ignorance directed at trans people.

No one is suggesting that trans girls at an age of adolescence are going to want to change openly with... well anyone for that matter. Are you suggesting they would be better off in the boys locker room? Are you that disconnected with the reality these people face? They would be bullied and beaten faster than you can say Boys Don't Cry. Most likely, people going through this at an adolescent school age are going to find a private place to change.

Yeah so I said I wasn't going to post anymore, but this response is just so asinine I have to.

First of all, yes, people ARE suggesting that. I'll briefly cover that below but I'm not going to waste an abundance of time explaining something obvious and factual.

Second, let's just focus on the questions in bold. Why is the comfort one person more important than the comfort of everyone else? Sure, the male with a penis who identifies as a girl might be uncomfortable with changing with other boys with penises. But the alternative... where an entire school of girls with vaginas is thoroughly uncomfortable with the male with a penis being in a place where they change... has orders of magnitude more people feeling "uncomfortable."

These laws are about where you can pee. When was the last time you saw any penis in the bathroom anywhere? Why would you care if the person using the toilet in the stall next to you had a penis or not? I sure don't want to know.

Nope. The discussion taking place nation wide and many of the laws considered also apply to locker rooms. Please educate yourself. Simple Google search works, one example: Battle brewing over transgender bathroom laws in state capitals

South Dakota Gov. Dennis Daugaard faces a deadline Tuesday to act on a bill passed by the state legislature that would require students to use bathrooms or locker rooms for the gender that corresponds with their “chromosomes and anatomy” at birth.

Even if you don't educate yourself, it's common sense that one follows the other. You do understand locker rooms have toilets, right? Are you SURE you went to a real middle school with real people and real bathrooms? Doesn't seem like it.

 

[kmoose]

Trans people have been around forever. They have been peeing in your midst since you were born! What is changing is that laws are being created to discriminate against them.

Serious question.............. how is requiring people to use a plumbing appropriate bathroom discriminatory?

 

[Bishop2b5]

You couldn't be more wrong. It's COMPLETELY IRRATIONAL to think that child molesters, perverts, flashers, and rapists will do anything differently because of laws allowing trans people to pee where they want.

Trans people have been around forever. They have been peeing in your midst since you were born! What is changing is that laws are being created to discriminate against them. Striking down these laws will in no way allow child molesters, perverts, flashers, and rapists any more access than they already have.

Let's let it play out over the next few months. I feel safe in asserting that we'll see numerous instances of non-trans people taking advantage of the fact that they can go into any restroom they like by claiming to be trans, and then using that easier access to flash, peep, molest, rape, or otherwise sexually assault. When it happens, will you then admit it wasn't completely irrational to expect it to happen?