Police State USA

Irishnuke

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Absolutely there are bad cops and good cops, just like every other profession. What's happening though is that the acts of the good cops are being completely overshadowed by the acts of the bad cops. It's not fair to lump them all together.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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Fact is, they are paid to do their job. It isnt a volunteer position. While in my 42 years, Ive never met a good cop, Im sure somewhere they exist. Back in college when I competed in bodybuilding, I did a lot of bouncing at southside bars. A guy I knew who was also a bodybuilder got me my first bouncer job. Difference was that I just restrained fighters while he finished the fight for them with his fists. Same guy that also broke his girlfriends nose..twice..for messing around with him. Big time steroid user. Case in point, last I knew he was a city police officer.

But lets face it, police work is low paid work that carries high risk. Why would anyone do it? Because of the power trips. Because of the ability to be above the law until significant proof is gathered to prove beyond any shred of doubt that they arent. I watched that video of the cops wearing out the guy that stole the horse that they tased and had his arms behind his back while he was face first. The supervisor said he watched "part" of the video. Your employees are accused of this and you watched "part of it" and you are a supervisor???? He then followed with "IF any wrongdoing..." IF?????

Truly sad. But truly a worldwide problem. If you think America's cops are crooked, wait until you see Ukraine's (where my wife is from).

I've met plenty of good cops. The wholesale hand-wringing makes me believe you also have an axe to grind. It does neither side any good when people can't be objective from either side.

Is it a growing trend or are the bad apples being exposed more often b/c everyone is walking around with a video camera in their front pocket?

Point taken. I wasn't trying to imply this is a new development or only growing recently, just that we are seeing it more. Your point is a good one but not something I'm interested in. I simply want to see us continue to monitor everyone and stopping handing out free passes.

We are all judged in our job performances, there is no reason that POs shouldn't be judged as well. I know we have some POs here and I hope they know we aren't calling all cops "cowards hiding behind a badge". I think the majority of POs do their work in an honorable fashion but we hear about the bad apples much more now that we have so many ways of monitoring them.
 

GoIrish41

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yes u are but i am also not the best at explaining my thoughts--at least my wife says so ;)
i am not dismissing that there bad cops...i was just saying about an increase in this kind of behavior by cops...kids/people are less "afraid" of giving cops attitude etc which the cop then uses excessive force

Cops should be equipped to deal with a rise in "attitude" without resorting to violence because their authority is challenged. That is part of being a cop. Who protects citizens from them when they resort to criminal behavior? They voluntarily chose the profession and are being paid to diffuse these situations, not to escalate them. While there may be more attitude I would argue it often turns to chaos because of the actions of police. A buste tail light for instance should not be a capital offense, even in South Carolina.
 

IrishLax

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Absolutely there are bad cops and good cops, just like every other profession. What's happening though is that the acts of the good cops are being completely overshadowed by the acts of the bad cops. It's not fair to lump them all together.

Yeah, but "good cops" should just be "cops." That's their job. When your job is to do the right thing, then it's not deserving of extra Brownie Points when they do their job. Same as in any profession. When I engineer a building and it stands up, no one goes "he's a 'good' engineer... unlike like those 'bad' engineers that keep having their buildings fall down and kill people... but don't worry it's only like 10% of buildings that are falling down, 90% are designed by the 'good' engineers so let's not worry about that 10%."

Hypothetical 'bad' engineers that don't follow code are not tolerated and go to jail. Same with 'bad' people in many professions where life safety or some sort of public trust is involved. The problem at hand is that it appears to the public that police are FAR more concerned with covering for the 'bad cops' than they are making them accountable for their actions. In the police stop I linked above where the cops try to destroy evidence, their supervisor is complicit in their actions.

I'm definitely not an "eff the police" kind of guy and have actually been on the opposite end of the spectrum for a lot of controversy. But I'm also getting to the point where I don't buy that it's just a few bad apples, it seems like a much more pervasive problem related to abuse of power and a lack of accountability.
 

GoIrish41

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Absolutely there are bad cops and good cops, just like every other profession. What's happening though is that the acts of the good cops are being completely overshadowed by the acts of the bad cops. It's not fair to lump them all together.

This is a fair point. I would add that the same should hold true for African Americans and teens and all other groups of people. Predetermination is as big an issue as any other in these cases on both sides. Trust has been broken and sides have been chosen. We will fix excessive violence by police and perceptions of bad intent by those being approached by cops when we stop focusing on the symptoms and recognize and work to prevent the cause of this disease.
 

ACamp1900

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. When your job is to do the right thing, then it's not deserving of extra Brownie Points when they do their job. Same as in any profession.

What makes cops different than other professions, like say yours or mine, is that when they do good they do it while often risking their lives in the service of others... That's definitely deserving of brownie points imo. Agree with what else you said though, especially your second paragraph which seems to hit the nail on the head...

My personal experience ( unfortunately) matches others here in that it is overwhelmingly negative when it comes to law enforcement, something definately needs to be done.
 

IrishLax

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What makes cops different than other professions, like say yours or mine, is that when they do good they do it while often risking their lives in the service of others... That's definitely deserving of brownie points imo. Agree with what else you said though, especially your second paragraph which seems to hit the nail on the head...

My personal experience ( unfortunately) matches others here in that it is overwhelmingly negative when it comes to law enforcement, something definately needs to be done.

My job is probably comparably dangerous* to being a cop. No italics.

*When I'm in the field, which is about half the time, obviously not when I'm in the office. Per the link above about "10 most dangerous jobs" construction is #10 and roofing is #4. Cop isn't even on there. For my current repair projects I'm engineering, 3 out of 4 involve some sort of roofing replacement or waterproofing and involve me hanging off buildings at times for inspection.
 
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Wingman Ray

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This is the tragedy to me. And corporate criminals can buy their way out of jail time. That's a massive flaw in the system.

This is Ukraine justice defined. Everything is about bribery. Literly, get pulled over...pay the cop (right there) and no ticket. The police work with extremely small salaries so it is an unwritten expectation that they will make money from bribes. The judges? Oh wow 100% bribed. My wife knew a man who ran over someone on the street with the person dying and never served a day of jail. Family paid the judge and the victims family...went away.
 

Circa

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Absolutely there are bad cops and good cops, just like every other profession. What's happening though is that the acts of the good cops are being completely overshadowed by the acts of the bad cops. It's not fair to lump them all together.

I agree completely that this recent set of events has brought up a set of questions that have gone unanswered for as long as Law Enforcement has existed. To quote the greatest book ever published "to whom much is given, much will be required’ (Luke 12:48)", or Uncle Ben “With great power comes great responsibility.” War has been being waged on our streets between minority and authority forever, this is not new and only shows the ignorance and subtle nature of uninformed minds. Racism is woven into the fabric of our dna, Mass racial violence in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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phgreek

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My job is probably comparably dangerous* to being a cop. No italics.

*When I'm in the field, which is about half the time, obviously not when I'm in the office. Per the link above about "10 most dangerous jobs" construction is #10 and roofing is #4. Cop isn't even on there. For my current repair projects I'm engineering, 3 out of 4 involve some sort of roofing replacement or waterproofing and involve me hanging off buildings at times for inspection.

Kinda an aside to this conversation...

lots of dangerous jobs...the subject of the job normally does not pose an immanent threat to the rest of us if folks don't do them...

Yes a roof can collapse...among other things...but roofs don't stalk people, and roofs don't beat their children, and roofs don't evade your trained eye when you are inspecting, and roofs don't steal your shit. Roofs are taken for granted largely because they are predictable...if you maintain them, they do exactly what you expect. Criminals are pretty unpredictable and no amount of time honored engineering and technological advancement will help that...sorry shrinks.

Cops live in the space between us and a bunch of unpredictable shit, so I suppose thats why Danger, based on how many practitioners get maimed or killed may not be the best way to quantify why I value cops over other dangerous professions.
 

Irish YJ

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personally i think it is a combo of people feeling less respectful of authority in general and the addition of video camera's being on everyone

Been thinking this for a while now. Respect in general for the law has diminished severely over the last 30-40 years. I'm an NWA fan, but let's be honest, the Fuck the Police mentality has been around for quite a while. The cops I know, whom I do respect tell me stories of idiots and gangbangers that would make your head spin. So the good ones have to put up with growing disrespect, while the bad cops getting video taped make it harder for the good ones to do their jobs. Pretty ugly circle. Body cams please.
 

Irishcop

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Yeah, but "good cops" should just be "cops." That's their job. When your job is to do the right thing, then it's not deserving of extra Brownie Points when they do their job. Same as in any profession. When I engineer a building and it stands up, no one goes "he's a 'good' engineer... unlike like those 'bad' engineers that keep having their buildings fall down and kill people... but don't worry it's only like 10% of buildings that are falling down, 90% are designed by the 'good' engineers so let's not worry about that 10%."

Hypothetical 'bad' engineers that don't follow code are not tolerated and go to jail. Same with 'bad' people in many professions where life safety or some sort of public trust is involved. The problem at hand is that it appears to the public that police are FAR more concerned with covering for the 'bad cops' than they are making them accountable for their actions. In the police stop I linked above where the cops try to destroy evidence, their supervisor is complicit in their actions.

I'm definitely not an "eff the police" kind of guy and have actually been on the opposite end of the spectrum for a lot of controversy. But I'm also getting to the point where I don't buy that it's just a few bad apples, it seems like a much more pervasive problem related to abuse of power and a lack of accountability.

Absolutely. Personally I'm not looking to be called a good cop, I'm just a cop. However I'm sick to death of people who know absolutely nothing about me nor what I have done in my career as a LEO lumping me into the "bad cop" group just because of the actions of a hand full of dip s***s.
 

Woneone

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For anyone that has time:

Cop in the Hood

It's a pretty interesting blog by a former officer (and I think some type of Psych training) in the Baltimore area that covers a bunch of the current National News dealing with the Police.

It deals with everything from Zimmerman, to Ferguson, to the events of the last week. It's some interesting stuff.
 

ACamp1900

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My job is probably comparably dangerous* to being a cop. No italics.

*When I'm in the field, which is about half the time, obviously not when I'm in the office. Per the link above about "10 most dangerous jobs" construction is #10 and roofing is #4. Cop isn't even on there. For my current repair projects I'm engineering, 3 out of 4 involve some sort of roofing replacement or waterproofing and involve me hanging off buildings at times for inspection.

How many loggers, crab fisherman or recycle plant workers are there in comparrison to cops... Just sayin...

I'm all about working to improve law enforcement, but I think to say cops that do their jobs well aren't deserving of accolades and are just cops when part of their job includes saving life's and dodging bullets is not a step in the right direction... Just me.
 

connor_in

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Absolutely. Personally I'm not looking to be called a good cop, I'm just a cop. However I'm sick to death of people who know absolutely nothing about me nor what I have done in my career as a LEO lumping me into the "bad cop" group just because of the actions of a hand full of dip s***s.

Personally, I want to thank you and your fellow officers for what you do. I know you guys get paid and it is your job to do this, but you had a choice of professions and you and your brothers go out there everyday to protect and serve.

I know there are those among your ranks that do the wrong thing, but I believe the large majority of you guys and gals try to do it right.

Stay safe, my friend
 

GoIrish41

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Absolutely. Personally I'm not looking to be called a good cop, I'm just a cop. However I'm sick to death of people who know absolutely nothing about me nor what I have done in my career as a LEO lumping me into the "bad cop" group just because of the actions of a hand full of dip s***s.

Part of this problem has to do with the perception that all cops protect bad cops no matter how bad their actions. My saying you do this but if all cops would weed out their own cancers this perception would die. I understand your annoyance but this perception is there for a reason and it stains all cops whether they are part of it or not. Good cops should have all the incentive they need to expose the ones who give them a bad name. But that does not seem to be how it works. These are decisions made by police not the policed.
 

ACamp1900

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Obviously having tech issues on my end...
 

ACamp1900

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One of my life long friends( like our parents have pics of us as babies playing at parks together) is a SB County Sheriff whO works one of the worst areas in so cal... I'll have to ask her what she knows about this, also, as an aside, it's her stories of how she's treated daily by the public and how she handles it that gives me a lot of my feelings on using good cops as the example...
 

ACamp1900

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Interesting, this happened where I live, in Apple Valley... Disturbing.
 

Huntr

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Protected and served the shit out of that guy.

Of course, we get all these different videos every week of cops fucking ppl up, lying, planting evidence, and flat out murdering folks because the bad ones are so rare.
 

Voltaire

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The title of this thread is so obtuse that it causes the conversation to be pre-loaded in such a way as to obscure a useful conversation. Anyone who actually believes the U.S. is a police state has no idea what an actual police state looks like outside of the comfortable confines of the United States.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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I think we all should keep this in mind, and it doesn't matter if the issue is drug laws or where your dog is allowed to take a shit:

the more laws we pass, the more law enforcement we're going to need. Every day I become a little more libertarian.
 

IrishLax

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The title of this thread is so obtuse that it causes the conversation to be pre-loaded in such a way as to obscure a useful conversation. Anyone who actually believes the U.S. is a police state has no idea what an actual police state looks like outside of the comfortable confines of the United States.

Cool story, bro.

Being serious for a second, thread title was chosen because of the website dedicated to police brutality/rights abuse in this country of the same name, and was simpler than typing "A Nuanced Discussion on the Recent Influx of Recorded Incidents of Police Malfeasance".

Of course the United States isn't a totalitarian regime secretly spying on citizens and... oh wait, yeah it sorta is.
 

IrishinSyria

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There seems to be some confusion ITT and in these videos as to what rights people do and don't have during a traffic stop. This is phenomenal law review article on the subject that uses the Jay-Z song "99 Problems" to walk through the issue. Particularly relevant:

Step out of the car . . . We now turn to the suspect’s interaction with the officer during a traffic stop. In the song, Jay-Z’s protagonist refuses the cop’s order to get out: “I ain’t stepping out of shit . . .” In the video, he remains in the car and the cop backs off. Well, this is a basic question, the sort a criminal lawyer can answer: Does a driver actually have the right to refuse an order to exit the vehicle during an ordinary traffic stop? Unfortunately for drivers, the answer here is an unequivocal “no,” straight from the Supreme Court: “[O]nce a motor vehicle has been lawfully detained for a traffic violation, the police officers may order the driver to get out of the vehicle without violating the Fourth Amendment’s proscription of unreasonable searches and seizures.”54

So the order to step out of the car is per se lawful; the lack of suspicion of anything beyond the traffic offense is irrelevant. Indeed, in Mimms, the case just quoted, the government conceded that there was no suspicion of any kind other than the traffic violation, and that it was simply the officer’s “practice” to order the driver out of the car whenever he made a traffic stop.55

Obviously, I'm not saying that the cops were right to react in the way they did, but the myth that you can refuse to get out of the car isn't doing anyone any good here either.
 

woolybug25

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