Police State USA

Redbar

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If I can tell you what you can and can't put in your body, with the threat of force and loss of personal freedom who really owns your body? If you listen to me on this and everything else I tell you, who really owns your mind?

I am certainly not saying drugs are a good way to go, but that is an entirely separate issue.
 
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Buster Bluth

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Yeah, that guy's not helping any. He is just building in excuses for people not to try to get out of the rut.

When I was a sophomore in college I was offered a football coaching gig at the poorest high school in Toledo, Libbey HS. It's in one of the worst parts of the city and a program that hadn't had a winning season in my lifetime. I took the job because I grew up in private schools and thought it would behoove me, as a guy who was considering getting into public policy, to learn a thing or two about life in the ghetto. It wasn't gang territory, just very very poor and black. "Too poor to own guns" is how one coach described it, unlike Scott HS and Woodward HS that have big gang issues. Anyway..

It was a really amazing experience, great kids, but one memory really sets the tone. Our best player on the freshman squad was this 6'2 195lb ripped kid who could run like the wind. The sorta kid for which Keuhjna makes a bookmark. I mean the kid was just legit. But, he kept getting suspended in school and missing games so finally I took it upon myself to talk some sense into him. Now you're not supposed to overly praise kids' abilities an instead say "work hard yadda yadda" but I said fuck it and told him he was good enough to play D1 football if he would only get his act together. He said he didn't want to do that. I was kinda stunned and said "don't you want to play college football? Don't you want to go to college for free?" His response I will never forget, "Nahh man, I wanna be a garbageman. They make mad cash." One of the few times in my life I've been speechless. I walked over and told another coach and just sorta smiled and said "Buster you're in a different world here. It's not the suburbs. It's very likely that the only person he knows who makes any sort of money is a garbageman."

Honestly I can't even imagine life in the ghettos of Detroit, Baltimore, Chicago, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, etc. I guess I'm just saying that trying to apply our perspective of personal responsibility and "getting out" is simply ignoring reality. I don't believe in making excuses, but I do believe in acknowledging reasons. The difference between reasons and excuses is whether you think they're legitimate I guess.

Anyway I'm super off base and sleep deprived but anywho the Drug War is oppressive, racist, a waste of money, ineffective, immoral, unethical, etc and should be ended ASAP. And trying to "get out" isn't anywhere on the agenda of these people, working to just get by is the objective.
 
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Circa

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Yeah, that guy's not helping any. He is just building in excuses for people not to try to get out of the rut.

The cry for help.. Helping could be your dish on thanksgiving. It also is what a whole lot of people need in the mind. This is a cause we have decided to ignore. When we all try to live with a life of purity.
 

NDgradstudent

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It may be considered by some racist to assume that college students automatically means white people, but why quibble about that when there is so much other than that wrong in this post. You do not hear about the systemic oppression of college students because it would be stupid to make such a claim as college students are in a position to rise in society through education and are the embodiment of opportunity in America. That is not the case with inner city black people and if you think that is a apt comparison then it probably is not even worth discussing this with you. Have you read the post by ndworld a few posts prior to get a deeper understanding of the history of Baltimore segregation? You might also make an effort to understand historic and contemporary racial injustices this country a little more broadly in general. Baltimore is not something that happened in a vacuum.

Look, I can't into a round of oppression Olympics disputing which statements are or are not racist. The photos in your link were almost all white people; that was the point the people in the article were making, i.e., whites can riot too. I was just observing that we all already know that.

As for segregation in Baltimore, how do you propose that we end it? Require whites to live in the same neighborhood as blacks? Or are you willing to volunteer to do so? Very often these racial social engineering schemes are cooked up by wealthy liberals as a way of assuaging their white guilt, but the costs of these schemes are born by poor whites.
 
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Buster Bluth

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As for segregation in Baltimore, how do you propose that we end it? Require whites to live in the same neighborhood as blacks? Or are you willing to volunteer to do so? Very often these racial social engineering schemes are cooked up by wealthy liberals as a way of assuaging their white guilt, but the costs of these schemes are born by poor whites.

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NDgradstudent

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The key with Buster and the other lefties is to examine their behavior, rather than their opinions. Talk about "racism" requires no thought, effort, or originality, but the game is given away by the decisions that they make. I am still waiting to hear from anyone here who chose to move to a heavily black neighborhood, or to send his child to a heavily black school.

Incredibly, these same lefties seem to think that the government can somehow "desegregate" these cities and convince whites to move to black neighborhoods, or something. If they had their way, every city's public schools would look like Boston's. Or maybe this is worth it to win the war on racism?
 

BGIF

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Flicking through the channel last and came across Star Trek: Insurrection where Jean-Luc Picard uttered "... the Son'a are primitive thugs ...".

I was stunned. A couple of hundred years in the future and the word "thug" still relates to behavior and not skin tone, race, OR species.
 
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BGIF

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Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document says - The Washington Post

By Peter Hermann April 29 at 9:10 PM

BALTIMORE — A prisoner sharing a police transport van with Freddie Gray told investigators that he could hear Gray “banging against the walls” of the vehicle and believed that he “was intentionally trying to injure himself,” according to a police document obtained by The Washington Post.

The prisoner, who is currently in jail, was separated from Gray by a metal partition and could not see him. His statement is contained in an application for a search warrant, which is sealed by the court. The Post was given the document under the condition that the prisoner not be named because the person who provided it feared for the inmate’s safety.

The document, written by a Baltimore police investigator, offers the first glimpse of what might have happened inside the van. It is not clear whether any additional evidence backs up the prisoner’s version, which is just one piece of a much larger probe.

Gray was found unconscious in the wagon when it arrived at a police station on April 12. The 25-year-old had suffered a spinal injury and died a week later, touching off waves of protests across Baltimore, capped by a riot Monday in which hundreds of angry residents torched buildings, looted stores and pelted police officers with rocks.

Police have said they do not know whether Gray was injured during the arrest or during his 30-minute ride in the van. Local police and the U.S. Justice Department both have launched investigations of Gray’s death.

Jason Downs, one of the attorneys for the Gray family, said the family had not been told of the prisoner’s comments to investigators.

“We disagree with any implication that Freddie Gray severed his own spinal cord,” Downs said. “We question the accuracy of the police reports we’ve seen thus far, including the police report that says Mr. Gray was arrested without force or incident.”

Baltimore police said they will wrap up their investigation Friday and turn the results over to the Baltimore state’s attorney’s office, which will decide whether to seek an indictment. Six police officers, including a lieutenant and a sergeant, have been suspended.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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The key with Buster and the other lefties is to examine their behavior, rather than their opinions. Talk about "racism" requires no thought, effort, or originality, but the game is given away by the decisions that they make. I am still waiting to hear from anyone here who chose to move to a heavily black neighborhood, or to send his child to a heavily black school.

Incredibly, these same lefties seem to think that the government can somehow "desegregate" these cities and convince whites to move to black neighborhoods, or something. If they had their way, every city's public schools would look like Boston's. Or maybe this is worth it to win the war on racism?

At least you make no pretense about what you are and believe.

I chose to have a bi-racial dark son. He is a good man. As good as either of my birth sons.

I chose to live in the school district that is the most representative of the population with a best possible quality of education. You see, wanting better and more for your kids isn't all bad. Of course, having some success (in society), I have a better idea of what that is, and how to get it.

When we moved into the neighborhood we chose, (I believe it was 1994), my second son answered the phone to a call, "Tell the ni***r we are going to kill him!" (Apparently for doing nothing more than moving in. The follow-up call was, "We are going to kill you all for bringing the ni***r into the neighborhood!" I had the phone company and FBI put a trace on the call. In the meantime I found out who was responsible for the call. There was a gang in this school called the "Nazi Ni***r Haters."

i went over to the grand puba's house, (he was also responsible for the drive by phonings,) and when he answered the door I asked to speak to his parents. In a conciliatory, non-threating tone I explained what happened, how I knew of their sons involvement and introduced myself. I asked them to make sure they remembered my face, because, as I explained to them the next time they would see it would be if their son ever threatened or contacted my family again it would be behind the 12 gage shotgun in their yard, waiting to shoot them, if they were able to escape the burning house.

Months later I was able to confront another one of the kids moms at a school meeting. She was a blowhard bragging about how great her kids were. I had a wonderful chat with her about the activities one of those wonderful crazy kids were involved in.

I had a chance to see how racism, even among those who weren't racist, or kept it in check worked out. Honestly, an old high school teacher and basketball coach was the only parent I met that didn't warn me or my son away from their white daughter. There were other times when I saw my son treated in a very stereotypical manner. I had a great chance to see how it would affect anyone.

My son is a high character guy. He received about 5 varsity letters in high school, went on to tech school, and got a really good mechanics position (cars were the love of his life.) He has worked himself into an entrepreneurial position, owns his own business and has three wonderful kids. But the way people looked at him took a toll. And of course the first thing racists want to do is pin it on me for raising him in a "white" family.

So I have lived these things, and I don't categorize everything into neat tidy packages. I don't have answers. I don't have condemnation for you, all though I know your thinking is part of the problem, and offers few solutions.

Any of you watch a movie called Mississippi Burning?

A) I thought it was interesting that the Klan rhetoric continually compared anti-segregationists, or northern liberals, with communists. (lefties. BB is as far from a leftie as they come!)

B) In the movie, half the people had some idea that "Negroes" were treated poorly, but the other half thought that they brought it on themselves, and were entirely blind to the injustices heaped upon these peoples. (from kidnapping by the slavers hundreds of years ago, to the purposeful addiction for drug profiteers in recent generations.)
 

NDohio

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There are a lot of reasons for it. I believe Michael Gerson of the Washington Post nailed it when he referred to the soft bigotry of low expectations. Nobody expects these kids to succeed -- parents, siblings, teachers, the communities they live in -- and they, unfortunately usually meet expectations. They also go to bad schools, have few role models who have done it before them, and live in bad neighborhoods full of negative distractions. The ones who do make it are often used as tools to further belittle those with all odds stacked against them. The bussing mess of the 70s was an attempt to level the playing field a little but was understandably a disaster. We have failed these kids as a society and we make it worse by showering them with blame for not keeping pace with their peers and then targeting them more with police, jailing them far more than others, and reminding them as adults how they have failed. What should we expect when they raise their kids in the same shitty neighborhoods, send them to the same underperforming schools and hold them to the same low expectations? The beat goes on.

I don't agree with a lot of what you say, but this is spot on. My wife teaches in a predominately black school in the south(and my daughter attends there as well) and this is so true. My wife works very hard to try and get her students to see that there are opportunities for them to get out of the situation they currently find themselves in. She has a sophomore girl that purposely got pregnant to continue the family cycle. She volunteered to do the girls home bound studies so she could be in her environment to try and coax this girl to stay focused. She is a really bright kid, but too many people in her life have no expectations for her. Unfortunately, much of the administration does exactly what you mentioned. They help the kids achieve very low expectations and nothing more.
 

NDgradstudent

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At least you make no pretense about what you are and believe.

I chose to have a bi-racial dark son. He is a good man. As good as either of my birth sons.

I chose to live in the school district that is the most representative of the population with a best possible quality of education. You see, wanting better and more for your kids isn't all bad. Of course, having some success (in society), I have a better idea of what that is, and how to get it.

[...]

So I have lived these things, and I don't categorize everything into neat tidy packages. I don't have answers. I don't have condemnation for you, all though I know your thinking is part of the problem, and offers few solutions.

Any of you watch a movie called Mississippi Burning?

A) I thought it was interesting that the Klan rhetoric continually compared anti-segregationists, or northern liberals, with communists. (lefties. BB is as far from a leftie as they come!)

B) In the movie, half the people had some idea that "Negroes" were treated poorly, but the other half thought that they brought it on themselves, and were entirely blind to the injustices heaped upon these peoples. (from kidnapping by the slavers hundreds of years ago, to the purposeful addiction for drug profiteers in recent generations.)

I have worked in inner-city public schools with entirely black and Hispanic student bodies, and I don't need to be patronized about my views. You are right that I am realistic and honest, though. I give you all the credit in the world for adopting a child, but you have not really responded to anything I have said.

You have established that white people can be racist. But do you think that, for example, black parents in Washington, D.C. wouldn't go to any lengths they could to send their kids to mostly white Sidwell Friends, where the Obamas send their daughters? The entire busing project in the 1970s was based on the idea that blacks would perform better in school if there were more whites in class with them.

The main solution, as I have said several times, is for more than 30% of blacks to be raised in wedlock. In my view, the lack of stable families -father figures especially- is the cause of poor socialization, which is the main driver of black crime, and all crime. Although the government in a free society cannot pass a law forbidding out-of-wedlock births, it can create incentives for people to marry before having kids, or structure welfare in a way that does not reward people for being single mothers. We might also introduce more school choice, but again these white liberals (including Obama, who is not condemned to sending his daughter to some disastrous public school in D.C.) do not want them.

About the history of racism- is this supposed to excuse or justify black crime? Lots of poor white people have had lousy lives, too, but we don't make excuses for them. Also, how tenable is to think that this history is the cause of current black crime? The black crime rate was far lower before the 1960s than it is today. Did the effect of slavery, segregation, etc., simply kick in after the 1960s?

The point is that rich white liberals have always been quick to denounce racism and demand that the kids of poor whites be bused all over town as a way of socially engineering the schools, or demanded that Section 8 housing be built in the poorer white areas, but when it comes time for busing in their town, or a housing project in their neighborhood, they were (and are) doing everything they can to stop it. You might reply that these white liberals should stop behaving this way, to which I can only say that I hope that you have better luck than anybody else has had at changing human nature.

So, to conclude: I want some tax and education policy changes and I want to see cultural changes in childbearing patterns (perhaps incentivized by policy changes). I do not want some massive social engineering scheme designed to induce whites to move into black areas.

It is funny that you bring up communists, because they are famously guilty of the same thing: preaching about equality, the workers, etc., but accepting two sets of rules.
 

kmoose

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Incredibly, these same lefties seem to think that the government can somehow "desegregate" these cities and convince whites to move to black neighborhoods, or something.

To be fair, I think most "lefties" want to provide opportunities for disadvantaged people of all races to be able to afford to live in the same neighborhood as those of us with "white privilege".
 

GDomer09

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There are a lot of reasons for it. I believe Michael Gerson of the Washington Post nailed it when he referred to the soft bigotry of low expectations. Nobody expects these kids to succeed -- parents, siblings, teachers, the communities they live in -- and they, unfortunately usually meet expectations. They also go to bad schools, have few role models who have done it before them, and live in bad neighborhoods full of negative distractions. The ones who do make it are often used as tools to further belittle those with all odds stacked against them. The bussing mess of the 70s was an attempt to level the playing field a little but was understandably a disaster. We have failed these kids as a society and we make it worse by showering them with blame for not keeping pace with their peers and then targeting them more with police, jailing them far more than others, and reminding them as adults how they have failed. What should we expect when they raise their kids in the same shitty neighborhoods, send them to the same underperforming schools and hold them to the same low expectations? The beat goes on.

Thanks for the response GoIrish41. Everything you've said is what I believed the problem to be.

Here's my beef-

"WE have failed these kids as a society"
How can anybody outside the mostly black community in these areas change this cycle? The gov't has tried throwing money at the situation in poor black & white communities and it hasn't worked. In fact in my area it has continued a cycle of relying on the gov't and has not changed the crime or failure rates. The PEOPLE have to change their expectations of these kids. Who is going to change the PEOPLE of these communities and how are they going to do it?

"WE make it worse by showering them with blame for not keeping pace with their peers and then targeting them more with police, jailing them far more than others"
We know why this is; they're called into these areas due to more drugs and crime, so of course you'll have more arrests. What is the other option to this? These arrests are an attempt to get rid of these "negative distractions" non-criminal kids face. We can't just say it's not your fault and send them on their way? What message does that send?

Like you said the schools, parents, siblings, teachers, the communities are holding these kids back from doing well with their lives. How do we get them to care is the question and answer!
 

Booslum31

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Thanks for the response GoIrish41. Everything you've said is what I believed the problem to be.

Here's my beef-

"WE have failed these kids as a society"
How can anybody outside the mostly black community in these areas change this cycle? The gov't has tried throwing money at the situation in poor black & white communities and it hasn't worked. In fact in my area it has continued a cycle of relying on the gov't and has not changed the crime or failure rates. The PEOPLE have to change their expectations of these kids. Who is going to change the PEOPLE of these communities and how are they going to do it?

"WE make it worse by showering them with blame for not keeping pace with their peers and then targeting them more with police, jailing them far more than others"
We know why this is; they're called into these areas due to more drugs and crime, so of course you'll have more arrests. What is the other option to this? These arrests are an attempt to get rid of these "negative distractions" non-criminal kids face. We can't just say it's not your fault and send them on their way? What message does that send?

Like you said the schools, parents, siblings, teachers, the communities are holding these kids back from doing well with their lives. How do we get them to care is the question and answer!

I don't think things can be fixed until the family unit is fixed. How the heck can you fix that? Such a small percentage of children born into two-parent committed households these days and less in the inner-city. This results in children dropping out of school which results in street life, crime, drugs, etc. Everything seems to be focused on the drug use and crime (and arrests) that we see and hear in the news. These are just side effects of the breakdown of the nuclear family. I can't see the family unit being restored because the family unit isn't necessary to truly survive anymore in this day and age. It didnt surprise me when I saw that mother swatting her teenage son in front of the cameras telling him to get home and get off the streets. That's because too many times the woman is left alone to try to raise the children. I'm sorry, but it would have surprised me if it was the father smacking his son in the head and telling him to get home. Regardless of race, if children dont have two committed parents then their chances of staying in school, staying off drugs, living crime free, and getting a good job are pretty low. However, the chances of the cycle continuing are pretty high. The discussion in my opinion should be all around how the heck can we reverse the breakdown of the American family. It seems pretty unpopular to site spiritual/religous/moral reasons for committed marriages. So maybe incentives for getting/staying married? Disencentives for not getting/staying married? I have no idea...both seem draconian. I remember when Bush senior got laughed off the stage trying to promote family values...which was an early indicator that America as a whole didn't have much of an appeitite for fixing the family unit. We spend a lot of time and energy talking about the symptoms and when challenged to discuss the causes...we go all-party-line and miss the true cause. It's the family IMO.
 

Rhode Irish

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The key with Buster and the other lefties is to examine their behavior, rather than their opinions. Talk about "racism" requires no thought, effort, or originality, but the game is given away by the decisions that they make. I am still waiting to hear from anyone here who chose to move to a heavily black neighborhood, or to send his child to a heavily black school.

Incredibly, these same lefties seem to think that the government can somehow "desegregate" these cities and convince whites to move to black neighborhoods, or something. If they had their way, every city's public schools would look like Boston's. Or maybe this is worth it to win the war on racism?

If you were trying to miss the point in the most wrongheaded way possible it would be difficult to do a better job of it.
 

IrishinSyria

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Hey NDGradStudent, I've said multiple times that I live in the south side of chicago. Most of my neighbors are black. What point are you trying to make?


Anyway, came here to post this link: the economist imagines if white and black America were two different countries. The differences are stark.


Daily chart: Two nations | The Economist


e. also from the Economist, though I don't have time to find the link, due to the heavy reliance on local funding for schools, America is one of three countries in the Western world that spends more money on public education for rich students than it does for poor students. The other two are Turkey and Israel.
 
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BGIF

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Report: Freddie Gray sustained injury in police van - CNN.com

By Eliott C. McLaughlin and Holly Yan, CNN
Updated 4:44 PM ET, Thu April 30, 2015


(CNN)[Breaking news update, posted at 4:43 p.m.]

A Baltimore police investigation into the death of Freddie Gray found no evidence he died as the result of injuries caused during his arrest, according to CNN affiliate WJLA, citing "multiple law enforcement sources briefed on the police findings."

The sources quoted by WJLA said the medical examiner had determined Gray's death was caused by catastrophic injury after he slammed into the back of the police transport van, "apparently breaking his neck; a head injury he sustained matches a bolt in the back of the van."
It was treated almost as a footnote in a Thursday police news conference: Eighteen days into the investigation into Freddie Gray's death, police announced the transport van made a previously undisclosed stop along the circuitous route from the point where Gray was arrested to the precinct.

"This new stop was discovered from a privately owned camera," Deputy Commissioner Kevin Davis said without elaborating.

Many observers, though, say the revelation makes the Gray case even more suspicious -- and there has been no shortage of protesters taking to the city's streets to express their doubts about police accounts of what happened between Gray's April 12 arrest and his April 19 death.

The Rev. Jamal Bryant of Baltimore's Empowerment Temple has been helping organize protests and speaking to people in the community. Young people have told him in the last two days that they are "absolutely frustrated and their confidence level is absolutely shattered" and Thursday's news only exacerbates those feelings.

"They don't believe that Mr. Gray was hurting himself in the van, and this additional stop lends credence to the suspicion that something is absolutely off track," he said.

Attorney Andrew O'Connell, who is part of the Gray family's legal team, described the police timeline as a "moving target," meaning it keeps changing over time.

"What I would like to know and what we have been asking for from the beginning are the radio runs that are recorded during these stops," he said. "Whenever a police officer makes a stop he's supposed to radio it in. We haven't seen those. Those are usually the best way to get an accurate picture of what happened during an arrest."

An official who had been briefed on the investigation told CNN that the stops are key to determining what happened, and as O'Connell pointed out, each stop is supposed to be logged, generally by the van's driver, and that didn't happen in this case. That's why the initial police timeline was missing the new stop, the official said.

But where O'Connell stopped short of leveling accusations, CNN legal analyst Mel Robbins was more incredulous.

"They found out about it after doing this investigation where they interviewed over 30 people," she said. "So what that says to me is that if it's going to take a closed-circuit, private camera to show the stop, that they were not getting that information from the police officers during the investigation."

'This is why they investigate'
CNN law enforcement analyst Tom Fuentes contended, however, that it was too early to assert something nefarious was at play and said finding and reviewing videos in an investigation is laborious.

"This could be a private security camera that was from a business, looking down the sidewalk and the street from their business that maybe just got turned over," he said. "This is why they investigate. More facts come up gradually. When you have private citizens turn over videos to look at, they may not have realized it was that van, the business owner may not have known that it had anything to do with this case."

Hwang Jung, owner of the market at the corner of North Fremont Avenue and Mosher Street, where the newly disclosed stop took place, said officers in suits came into his store last week asking to see surveillance footage from April 12 at around 8:30 a.m.

After viewing the footage, the officers gave him their number and said two more officers would come copy the footage, which happened a few hours later, Hwang said.

The footage was lost, he said, when his store was looted in the days after Gray's death. He said he couldn't be sure exactly what day the officers came by but he thought it was early in the week of April 19.

It was April 24, a Friday, that Deputy Commissioner Davis told reporters that there had only been three stops en route to the police station: the first to put leg irons on Gray, the second "to deal with Mr. Gray" (an incident, he said, that remained under investigation) and the third to pick up a prisoner in an unrelated matter.

The new stop, Davis said Thursday, came between the first and second stops.

Another probe revealed
Police led the Thursday news conference by announcing they handed their investigative files over to prosecutors a day earlier than planned.

The state's attorney for Baltimore confirmed she had received the report and said that while police have regularly briefed her office on their findings, her team has been conducting its own independent investigation.

"While we have and will continue to leverage the information received by the department, we are not relying solely on their findings but rather the facts that we have gathered and verified," prosecutor Marilyn Mosby said. "We ask for the public to remain patient and peaceful and to trust the process of the justice system."

Mosby will ultimately decide whether to file charges against any of the officers.

Investigators delivered their report early because "I understand the frustration. I understand the urgency," police Commissioner Anthony Batts said.

"This does not mean that the investigation is over. If new evidence is found, we will follow it," he added. "Getting to the right answer is more important than speed."

The latest revelations came shortly after two new accounts of what happened to Gray emerged.

The first comes from a relative of one of the officers involved in the arrest. She told CNN the officer thinks Gray was injured while he was being arrested, before he was put inside a police van.

The second is an account from a prisoner who was in the same police van, as published in The Washington Post. The prisoner reportedly told investigators he thought Gray "was intentionally trying to injure himself."

Source: Officer believes Gray injured during arrest
The woman who spoke to CNN did so on the condition of anonymity. She is related to the officer but said the officer didn't request the interview.

The relative said she worries all six of the officers who encountered Gray, 25, during his April 12 arrest will be incriminated when only some might be responsible.

"Six officers did not injure this man," she said. "Six officers didn't put him in the hospital. I'm worried that instead of them figuring out who did, that six officers are going to be punished behind something that maybe one or two or even three officers may have done to Freddie Gray."

She also told CNN that the officer doesn't know how Gray was injured but said he believes it happened during the arrest.

"He believes that Freddie Gray was injured outside the paddy wagon," the relative said.

She also gave an explanation of why Gray was not buckled into the police van: He appeared belligerent.

"They didn't want to reach over him. You were in a tight space in the paddy wagon. He's already irate," she said.

"He still has his teeth, and he still has his saliva. So in order to seat-belt somebody you have to get in their personal space. They're not going to get in his personal space if he's already irate."


Batts, the police commissioner, has said Gray should have been buckled in.

"We know he was not buckled in the transport wagon, as he should've been. No excuses for that, period," Batts said last week.

As for when Gray suffered a severe spinal injury, Batts said there was potential it could have happened either in or outside the police van.

In it, a prisoner who was in the police van with Gray said he could hear Gray "banging against the walls" of the van and thought Gray "was intentionally trying to injure himself."

The prisoner was separated from Gray by a metal barrier and could not see him, police have said.

The account is similar to what Batts told CNN affiliate WJZ-TV last week: that another suspect in the van heard Gray "thrashing about."

But Gray family attorney Jason Downs disputes the notion that Gray caused his own fatal injury.

"We disagree with any implication that Freddie Gray severed his own spinal cord," Downs told the Post. "We question the accuracy of the police reports we've seen thus far, including the police report that says Mr. Gray was arrested without force or incident."

An attorney for the local police union has said those moments in the van are critical to understanding the case.

"Our position is something happened in that van," police union attorney Michael Davey said. "We just don't know what."

Regardless of what happened, the police commissioner said Gray should have gotten medical help sooner.

"We know our police employees failed to get him medical attention in a timely manner multiple times," Batts said last week.

...
 
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BGIF

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Sounds like the city should have recording cameras inside transport vans.
 

BGIF

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Police findings on Baltimore man's death handed to prosecutors | Reuters

US | Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:37pm EDT Related: U.S.

BALTIMORE | BY SCOTT MALONE AND IAN SIMPSON

Reuters) - A Baltimore police report on the death of a black man who suffered severe spinal injuries while in custody was handed over on Thursday to the city's chief prosecutor, who must decide whether to bring charges against any of the six patrol officers involved in the man's arrest.

The office of Marilyn Mosby, the 35-year-old state’s attorney, will include the internal police report as part of its own investigation into the death of Freddie Gray, who was injured sometime between his arrest on April 12 for carrying a switchblade knife and his arrival at a police station.

...
 
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wizards8507

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Police findings on Baltimore man's death handed to prosecutors | Reuters

US | Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:37pm EDT Related: U.S.

BALTIMORE | BY SCOTT MALONE AND IAN SIMPSON

Reuters) - A Baltimore police report on the death of a black man who suffered severe spinal injuries while in custody was handed over on Thursday to the city's chief prosecutor, who must decide whether to bring charges against any of the six patrol officers involved in the man's arrest.

The office of Marilyn Mosby, the 35-year-old state’s attorney, will include the internal police report as part of its own investigation into the death of Freddie Gray, who was injured sometime between his arrest on April 12 for carrying a switchblade knife and his arrival at a police station.

...
Why write "the death of a black man" like race has anything to do with this whatsoever?

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goldandblue

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So if it is determined the injury was self inflicted, what say all those that have been crying racism and police brutality?
 

ACamp1900

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BGIF shared another article earlier where two people were shot,... I almost commented that, 'it's clear the bullets didn't come from police, and didn't hit any black people, or it would have been CLEARLY stated in the first two sentences'... Anyway, it doesn't change the reality that there is a problem with law enforcement in this country but the media is silly predicable...
 

IrishinSyria

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So if it is determined the injury was self inflicted, what say all those that have been crying racism and police brutality?

I'd imagine they would say something like

a) it's tough to believe someone could severe their own spine while handcuffed and in a van
and b) even if that is possible, when the police have someone restrained (read: cuffed) they have a responsibility to secure them so they can't do something like this either accidentally or deliberately.

bunch of whiners, if you ask me. Hell, they might even have the gall to point out that a fellow prisoner separated by a metal divide doesn't seem like the best witness to rely on. Crybabies.
 

Rhode Irish

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So if it is determined the injury was self inflicted, what say all those that have been crying racism and police brutality?

I want to know the people who think a guy may have broke his own back and neck so that I can do business with them.
 

Woneone

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I'd imagine they would say something like

a) it's tough to believe someone could severe their own spine while handcuffed and in a van
and b) even if that is possible, when the police have someone restrained (read: cuffed) they have a responsibility to secure them so they can't do something like this either accidentally or deliberately.

bunch of whiners, if you ask me. Hell, they might even have the gall to point out that a fellow prisoner separated by a metal divide doesn't seem like the best witness to rely on. Crybabies.

I'm stealing this from another board, but "Negligence, No Peace" doesn't quite have the same ring to it, does it?
 

wizards8507

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I want to know the people who think a guy may have broke his own back and neck so that I can do business with them.
If he was high or something and smashing himself against steel walls? Crazier things have happened.

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Irish Insanity

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If he was high or something and smashing himself against steel walls? Crazier things have happened.

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High, drunk, or sober, it takes a hell of a lot of force to basically rip your spine/neck in half. I'm sure it is physically possible, but not likely in my book.
 

GoIrish41

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If he was high or something and smashing himself against steel walls? Crazier things have happened.

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Crazier things like cops breaking the guy's back before throwing him into the van? Because that would be some crazy shit! Believable but crazy as opposed to crazy and simply unbelievable.
 
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