PJ Fleck

[Whiskeyjack]

I don't think anyone is calling him a giant slayer, but he has his current program at 9-0 for the first time in 115 years. Penn State was a six point favorite in that game. I can't tell if you're really pro Kelly or if you're one of the WMU boosters whose wife got shagged by Fleck, but you're clearly not interested which is my Captain Obvious post of the day.

Neither. Just an ND fan who's happy to have one of the few coaches nationally who can average 10+ wins a season in South Bend now, and I'm not willing to show him the door for anyone who's not an obvious upgrade. I'd say I was pretty ambivalent about Fleck coming into this season, but I'm trending anti- in light of all the unmerited adulation he's receiving around here.

I wouldn't say his resume is pathetic relatively speaking. He took over a dog meat MAC program without having been a coordinator and had them unbeaten in the regular season by Year Four. What he's done, to this point at Minnesota, seems to be following his WMU trend of building up a program.

No doubt his career trajectory is pointed up right now. But his resume is objectively inferior to Kelly's during his 2nd year at Cinci. Kelly took over a "dog meat" CMU team in 2004 and had won the MAC by year 3.

He's 38 years old and can recruit his ass off. Seems to have solid coordinators around him. He's played who has been on his schedule so far and won nine of nine. Some bigger tests to come, but there is clearly something to this guy that kids seem to buy into.

I don't think he's staying at Minnesota for the long term.

No doubt he's going to jump to a better job in 2021. But his only accomplishment at Minnesota thus far is knocking off a hugely over-rated PSU team after playing one of the softest schedules in the Power 5. Let's see him win the B1G West and look competitive in the conference title game before we continue salivating over Fleck.

No. Kelly has the program on very solid footing, the best it has been in a while.

For me, Kelly looks tapped out. He's had this job for ten years and its' been an eventful ride for him on and off the field. I wonder if he needs to either change scenery, take a break or retire.

This job has broken many a good man before him, and he's doing it in the age of the Internet and Social Media. I give him full marks for maintaining to this point.

Glad to hear that. If Kelly wants out, Fleck probably becomes a more realistic option. But you don't fire someone like Kelly (or Richt at Georgia) for a Fleck. You hold onto those guys until you've got a sure-fire upgrade, like John Harbaugh, Bob Stoops, Urban Meyer, etc.

Perhaps, just perhaps, someone puts a feeler out from ND. Doesn't have to be Jack Swarbrick. Maybe a nice young deacon or something. I don't know. Go through a back channel to a back channel and see what Fleck thinks of ND. Couldn't hurt.

Fleck was on the short-list when ND formed a search committee to look into replacing Kelly after 2016. So contact has already been made, and we've already vetted him. I'm sure we could have him if we wanted.

This may sound nuts, but I fully expect ND has zero interest in Fleck because he got divorced from his first marriage.

It's not completely irrelevant, but the recent discussion here about the importance of moral character in our head coaches had much more to do with Urban Meyer than Fleck. If Kelly hits the eject button and ND decides that Fleck is the best candidate available, I'd fully expect him to get the offer. But as I mentioned above, Kelly choosing to leave is a very different set of circumstances than arguing that ND fire him for Fleck.

 

[Blazers46]

Rumors have been ND is high on his list. One of the top posters here said Fleck is all about ND via Fleck's BFF.

I can just repeat the words of two very uber connected alums that Fleck's a no go.

According to nobody special... I keep hearing everyone is a no go because Kelly is not going anywhere.

 

[ACamp1900]

But as I mentioned above, Kelly choosing to leave is a very different set of circumstances than arguing that ND fire him for Fleck.

Has anyone said that though?? Serious question and forgive me if I missed but isn't the entire discussion under the assumption BK is close to done on his terms etc??

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Has anyone said that though?? Serious question and forgive me if I missed but isn't the entire discussion under the assumption BK is close to done on his terms etc??

No. There's a very vocal minority here that's "title or bust" every year; they think that once it becomes clear a given coach likely won't win a title at ND, the admin has a moral obligation to the fanbase to fire him immediately in favor of the new hotness, regardless of the risks involved. They would support firing Kelly for Fleck even if we end the season 11-2 with a Cotton Bowl victory.

 

[SouthernIndianaNDFan]

No. There's a very vocal minority here that's "title or bust" every year; they think that once it becomes clear a given coach likely won't win a title at ND, the admin has a moral obligation to the fanbase to fire him immediately in favor of the new hotness, regardless of the risks involved. They would support firing Kelly for Fleck even if we end the season 11-2 with a Cotton Bowl victory.

Are those your aspirations as a Notre Dame fan? 10 win seasons and wins in 2nd tier bowl games? To make the occasional major bowl and get humiliated? We've got a 10 year sample size. Yeah, I'd hope he finally gets one in Year 10.

 

[EddytoNow]

Thank you for the clarification. Very few were following Fleck while he was at Western Michigan, that's how an up and comer becomes an up and comer, they gradually ascend the ranks. I don't need to have watched him at Western Michigan to know that he's a better coach than BK, at present time.

Brian Kelly ascended the ranks. Big winner at Grand Valley State University. Move to Central Michigan University and win some more. Move to Cincinnati and a big winner. Move on to Notre Dame. Kelly, like Fleck, was successful at every stop.

Kelly has improved Notre Dame and deserves credit for doing that, but he has not taken ND to an elite level. There is no reason to think that PJ Fleck can take Notre Dame to an elite level either. Does anyone really believe PJ Fleck is ready to coach and recruit at the same level as Urban, Saban, and Dabo after one successful year at Minnesota?

 

[SouthernIndianaNDFan]

Good is the enemy of great. I'd rather they take their shot (Fleck, Rhule) than to revel in mediocrity outside of "elite". I know I'm in the minority, it just blows my mind that so many fans are content with mediocrity and humiliation on the national stage. 10 years in, and every major (NY6, BCS, CFP) appearance we've gotten embarrassed. I just want more than Sun Bowl and Champs Sports Bowl titles.

 

[ACamp1900]

No. There's a very vocal minority here that's "title or bust" every year; they think that once it becomes clear a given coach likely won't win a title at ND, the admin has a moral obligation to the fanbase to fire him immediately in favor of the new hotness, regardless of the risks involved. They would support firing Kelly for Fleck even if we end the season 11-2 with a Cotton Bowl victory.

... Are you speaking to random 'fanboy' out there or to reg posters here?? I'm not seeing the bold here. I think the vast majority of this discussion here and now is based on those like myself getting the feeling the time for BK is coming up sooner than later.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Are those your aspirations as a Notre Dame fan? 10 win seasons and wins in 2nd tier bowl games? To make the occasional major bowl and get humiliated? We've got a 10 year sample size. Yeah, I'd hope he finally gets one in Year 10.

That's obviously not my highest aspiration for the program. I'd love to win another title. But there's a lot of potential breaking points between the apex we're aiming for and the nadir we hit somewhere during the Weis era. In the 16 years before Kelly arrived, we averaged only 7 wins/season and managed just one bowl win (over lowly Hawaii). Even if we agree for the sake of argument that Kelly will never win a title here, I'm not willing to risk our current stability (consistent 10+ win seasons produce sustainable success that can be built on) for a Fleck, Rhule or Campbell. You just don't fire a guy like Kelly for anything other than a guaranteed upgrade. The downside risk is just too large.

Now if Kelly is burned out and looking to leave, that's a different story. Stoops, Meyer or Harbaugh are long-shots, and if they don't work out, you either promote someone like Clark Lea, or you grab someone like Fleck. But firing Kelly for Fleck would be indefensible.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Good is the enemy of great. I'd rather they take their shot (Fleck, Rhule) than to revel in mediocrity outside of "elite". I know I'm in the minority, it just blows my mind that so many fans are content with mediocrity and humiliation on the national stage. 10 years in, and every major (NY6, BCS, CFP) appearance we've gotten embarrassed. I just want more than Sun Bowl and Champs Sports Bowl titles.

"Mediocrity" is what we wallowed in for the 16 years prior to the Kelly. Now we live in the bottom half of the top-10. The right term for that is "borderline elite". And you're a fool if you'd be willing to gamble that on a 5-10% chance (which is probably generous in Fleck's case) to get over the hump.

... Are you speaking to random 'fanboy' out there or to reg posters here?? I'm not seeing the bold here. I think the vast majority of this discussion here and now is based on those like myself getting the feeling the time for BK is coming up sooner than later.

gkIrish and Koon would definitely support firing Kelly for Fleck. So would SouthernIndianaNDFan, and many others that don't come to mind right now. I'm not making this up, because I've had this argument with the same people here many times over the last 5-6 years.

 

[SouthernIndianaNDFan]

That's obviously not my highest aspiration for the program. I'd love to win another title. But there's a lot of potential breaking points between the apex we're aiming for and the nadir we hit somewhere during the Weis era. In the 16 years before Kelly arrived, we averaged only 7 wins/season and managed just one bowl win (over lowly Hawaii). Even if we agree for the sake of argument that Kelly will never win a title here, I'm not willing to risk our current stability (consistent 10+ win seasons produce sustainable success that can be built on) for a Fleck, Rhule or Campbell. You just don't fire a guy like Kelly for anything other than a guaranteed upgrade. The downside risk is just too large.

Now if Kelly is burned out and looking to leave, that's a different story. Stoops, Meyer or Harbaugh are long-shots, and if they don't work out, you either promote someone like Clark Lea, or you grab someone like Fleck. But firing Kelly for Fleck would be indefensible.

That's fair, I appreciate you responding like a sensible human being, you don't always get that here when you have an opinion that is a minority view.

Yeah, I was around for the barren years, that shit sucked there's no doubt. To me, it's like Kelly has got us RIGHT on the brink of breaking thru, but I also feel like he's redlining and that he's peaked in terms of what he's able to do for the program. These next 2 classes look great, I feel like if he isn't able to get it done with those guys then they should most definitely look elsewhere. As has been noted already, he would be close to the end of the road at that point anyways, whether contractually or thru attrition.

 

[stlnd01]

Whiskey is making eminent sense this evening.
You look at Fleck IF Kelly leaves (which doesn’t seem particularly likely at the moment). You don’t run Kelly off to hire PJ Fleck.

 

[SouthernIndianaNDFan]

"Mediocrity" is what we wallowed in for the 16 years prior to the Kelly. Now we live in the bottom half of the top-10. The right term for that is "borderline elite". And you're a fool if you'd be willing to gamble that on a 5-10% chance (which is probably generous in Fleck's case) to get over the hump.



gkIrish and Koon would definitely support firing Kelly for Fleck. So would SouthernIndianaNDFan, and many others that don't come to mind right now. I'm not making this up, because I've had this argument with the same people here many times over the last 5-6 years.

I can live with all of that IF we are contending on the national stage, in NY6 bowls and beyond. The problem is we haven't, and that's my major gripe with Kelly, it doesn't seem to be getting better. We went from a horrible DC that stayed too long to now a horrible OC that will likely stay too long. These things are on BK, the CEO.

 

[ACamp1900]

gkIrish and Koon would definitely support firing Kelly for Fleck. So would SouthernIndianaNDFan, and many others that don't come to mind right now. I'm not making this up, because I've had this argument with the same people here many times over the last 5-6 years.

I'm not saying you are making it up... just asking where you are coming from. I haven't seen anyone say they want BK fired for Fleck regardless of how the season ends, that's why I asked.

 

[SouthernIndianaNDFan]

Whiskey is making eminent sense this evening.
You look at Fleck IF Kelly leaves (which doesn’t seem particularly likely at the moment). You don’t run Kelly off to hire PJ Fleck.

That wouldn't happen anyways.

 

[KPENN]

I can live with all of that IF we are contending on the national stage, in NY6 bowls and beyond. The problem is we haven't, and that's my major gripe with Kelly, it doesn't seem to be getting better. We went from a horrible DC that stayed too long to now a horrible OC that will likely stay too long. These things are on BK, the CEO.

They went to the college football playoff last season and are in line for a New Years 6 bowl birth this season. Chip Long and BVG are not the same. Just stop with your hyperbole

 

[stlnd01]

[/B]
That wouldn't happen anyways.

Isn’t that what you are advocating, though?
You keep saying BK has taken this program as far as he can and it’s time for a change. In my book that means running him off. Then you look at the landscape of available coaches for 2020 and - barring Urban Meyer - Fleck is right there at the top of the list.
That’s running off BK to hire Fleck.

 

[dad4aa]

Good is the enemy of great. I'd rather they take their shot (Fleck, Rhule) than to revel in mediocrity outside of "elite". I know I'm in the minority, it just blows my mind that so many fans are content with mediocrity and humiliation on the national stage. 10 years in, and every major (NY6, BCS, CFP) appearance we've gotten embarrassed. I just want more than Sun Bowl and Champs Sports Bowl titles.

Since the start of the CFP 5 years ago there have been only 10 different teams advance to the CFP and ND is one of those 10. If they win out this season they will have 10+ wins in 4 of the last 5 seasons with the lowest rank of those four being #11. Not sure how that is considered mediocrity.

 

[ulukinatme]

Since the start of the CFP 5 years ago there have been only 10 different teams advance to the CFP and ND is one of those 10. If they win out this season they will have 10+ wins in 4 of the last 5 seasons with the lowest rank of those four being #11. Not sure how that is considered mediocrity.

Don't mind him. He's been in a bad place since the Michigan loss. Yeah, it sucked, but we don't need to blow the entire program up.

 

[dad4aa]

Don't mind him. He's been in a bad place since the Michigan loss. Yeah, it sucked, but we don't need to blow the entire program up.

I just don’t understand how anyone who lived through the Davie-Willingham-Weis years can be so quick to fire a coach that has done so much for the program and definitely made ND relevant again.

 

[Irish#1]

I can live with all of that IF we are contending on the national stage, in NY6 bowls and beyond. The problem is we haven't, and that's my major gripe with Kelly, it doesn't seem to be getting better. We went from a horrible DC that stayed too long to now a horrible OC that will likely stay too long. These things are on BK, the CEO.

You sure about that?

 

[OhioIrish31]

Things will be fine if we run the table for the rest of the season. When we get blown up again in our bowl game by a team that just missed the playoffs...all hell will break loose again.

 

[OhioIrish31]

I just don’t understand how anyone who lived through the Davie-Willingham-Weis years can be so quick to fire a coach that has done so much for the program and definitely made ND relevant again.

Don't ever fire Kelly...just let him bring in athletes that can compete at an elite level. Does the D-Back who has to cover Fink toss and turn the night before they play ND. Or the rover that has to spy Book? Or the LB's that has to stop our RBs? Think not...they sleep like puppies. We need jimmies and Joes.

 

[dad4aa]

ND basically fired Holtz and look how that turned out. Like many others have said let BK leave on his own soon but if you force him out it better be for a proven upgrade.

 

[SouthernIndianaNDFan]

Since the start of the CFP 5 years ago there have been only 10 different teams advance to the CFP and ND is one of those 10. If they win out this season they will have 10+ wins in 4 of the last 5 seasons with the lowest rank of those four being #11. Not sure how that is considered mediocrity.

Look, I just want ND football back on top, like probably everyone on this board. Idc how it happens, or who leads us there, it's not like it's personal, I'm sure BK is a great dude. The bottomline is that every meaningful Bowl Game, CFP, or BCS appearance we've made in CBK's 10 years here we've gotten annihilated, and we're the running joke of CFB. Paper tigers, can't win the big one, riding our name to undeserved bowl game appearances, we just aren't elite, etc. I absolutely hate not having any comebacks in response to that stuff, and winning a Camping World Bowl isn't gonna change that, so guess we are gonna look to Year 11 of the BK Era for the answer. I understand that this team was horrible for years, I started watching right in the middle of it, and I've endured 22 years of it. You guys can call me whatever, slight me, that's fine, but after 10 years I haven't seen a single thing that leads me to believe that Brian Kelly is ever gonna win the big one, he's gotten there and fell face first EVERY time, so until I see something different, something tangible, I'm holding this stance.

 

[irishtrooper]

I suppose I’d rather be considered overrated than irrelevant. I’m on board with doing what needs to be done to win a championship, but you don’t change just to change and hope. We’re solidly in the top 10 every year now and recruiting is improving. With the restrictions that ND has, my view is we’re pretty close to maximizing our chances. Things will need to break right (imagine if K State doesn’t poop the bed in 2012- there’d be a statue of BK probably). I have been a huge fan since Tim Brown won the Heisman and this is easily the best we’ve had it since Holtz. Holtz is one of my favorite people, but he didn’t win every big game either. Nobody’s perfect and all things considered (restrictions, where we were, weather, etc) I consider Kelly a rather large success, particularly when you factor in the post-2016 remake.

Again, changing from an at-worst A minus coach without a definite A plus waiting is silly. I’m sure many were sure that Chip Kelly would immediately win at UCLA (getting better, but a long way off), that RichRod would win at Michigan (LOL), that Charlie Strong would win at Texas, etc. I could go on, but you get the point.

I’m going to savor the fact that we matter every year and we can literally make the playoff (we did!). How many teams that have way more advantages than us would kill to be where we are and have been for the last 5 years and with our trajectory (USC, FSU, Miami, Michigan St, Tennessee, heck even Michigan)?

I’m not mad at anyone and I totally respect everyone’s right to say their piece, but that’s mine.

Go Irish!

 

[phork]

10 wins is great. But when you are ND its playoffs or bust. 10 wins does not get you in the playoffs. We are as high as Kelly can take us. Occasionally we'll get in and get ass hammered, again. Its tiring and exhausting. The Michigan loss was the end for me. That was a total embarassment.

 

[ThePiombino]

Part of me worries that Fleck is a little too gimmicky. I LOVE his energy and that Gophers team looked really well coached on Saturday, but I do get a hint of snake oil salesman (perhaps carnival barker -- as someone mentioned on one of the podcasts -- is a better term) from him.

 

[IrishLion]

10 wins is great. But when you are ND its playoffs or bust. 10 wins does not get you in the playoffs. We are as high as Kelly can take us. Occasionally we'll get in and get ass hammered, again. Its tiring and exhausting. The Michigan loss was the end for me. That was a total embarassment.

On one hand I get this...

But on the other hand, stringing together two seasons with 10+ wins is already paying dividends on the recruiting trail. If we add a third consecutive 10-win season, and the '21 class continues to get better, the floor and the ceiling for this this team continue to get higher.

Do you shake up the current stability to take a chance on a guy like Fleck, and risk a temporary (or longer) downturn?

OR, is there less risk in hoping the next OC is better than Long, and turns out a more efficient product while we wait for the skill guys in '20 and '21 to put us in a REALLY good situation?

 

[dad4aa]

10 wins is great. But when you are ND its playoffs or bust. 10 wins does not get you in the playoffs. We are as high as Kelly can take us. Occasionally we'll get in and get ass hammered, again. Its tiring and exhausting. The Michigan loss was the end for me. That was a total embarassment.

You are going to be very disappointed then. I think Holtz was one of the greatest ever at ND and he would have only qualified 4 times in his 11 years (if we make it next year that would be 3 of 11 for BK counting the 2012 NC). Holtz has 5 double 10+ win seasons and if we win out this will be BK’s 5th. I also think it is much harder now for ND with the current landscape in college football. I am not saying BK is as good as Holtz, just listing the stats for comparison on how good BK is doing. I am fine having double digit wins every year with a CFP slot every 3-4 years. Makes the season fun and exciting. I just can’t take getting hammered...that needs to stop. BTW only 4 teams have had multiple CFP appearances. To expect it every year just isn’t realistic for a non-football factory.