Oversigning Recruits

[Bishop2b5]

Isn't it a bit strange that nearly every offseason, it seems like there is somebody new in Saban's doghouse, conveniently around the time when numbers need to work?

Nothing new about Jones being in Saban's doghouse. He's been there off & on since he arrived. The rumor is that he's had issues with attending class and focusing on academics. Saban said this week that if Jones does what he's supposed to, then he'll be back with the team soon. Like Tommy said, if Nick's looking to push someone out the door, RB probably isn't the position. This probably has nothing to do with freeing up a roster spot, and everything to do with trying to get his attention and change his behavior.

 

[WestCoast]

Isn't it a bit strange that nearly every offseason, it seems like there is somebody new in Saban's doghouse, conveniently around the time when numbers need to work?

You just think that because you don't have all the facts. I mean the really really real facts. Thankfully, the one person with the really really real facts came back from his Urban Meyer-esque retirement.

 

[woolybug25]

Nothing new about Jones being in Saban's doghouse. He's been there off & on since he arrived. The rumor is that he's had issues with attending class and focusing on academics. Saban said this week that if Jones does what he's supposed to, then he'll be back with the team soon. Like Tommy said, if Nick's looking to push someone out the door, RB probably isn't the position. This probably has nothing to do with freeing up a roster spot, and everything to do with trying to get his attention and change his behavior.

I don't get why you guys keep saying this. He would have been the 5th RB on the team. The other 4 are all blue chippers.

 

[Irish YJ]

I don't get why you guys keep saying this. He would have been the 5th RB on the team. The other 4 are all blue chippers.

I think the key point, if true, is that Saban supposedly said if he does what he is suppose to do, he'll be back on the team. That's not the tact of someone trying to free up space for numbers.

 

[RDU Irish]

No funny business in Tuscaloosa fellas!!! Right Tommy!?

I'm guessing the other 20+ recruits are smart enough not to take that picture with their piles of cash.

Anyone else wonder how many of these kids take cash from multiple sides?

 

[Irish YJ]

I'm guessing the other 20+ recruits are smart enough not to take that picture with their piles of cash.

Anyone else wonder how many of these kids take cash from multiple sides?

all three pics are in the same room. looks like a bathroom or kitchen....

3T - is that your house?

 

[T Town Tommy]

all three pics are in the same room. looks like a bathroom or kitchen....

3T - is that your house?

Only the finest Italian tile in T Town's house. That tile looks like it came from Home Depot. Plus, I only pay in benjamins. Makes it much easier to conceal that much cash when traveling. And that's the real facts... for those who really want to know.

 

[T Town Tommy]

I don't get why you guys keep saying this. He would have been the 5th RB on the team. The other 4 are all blue chippers.

It would be the equivalent of the Irish sending Bryant packing. Jones is third on the depth chart and one ahead of him is coming off a major injury. The two behind him have never ran one down in college. That's why Jones is not a number crunch. If he does what he needs to then he will probably be back. If not, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

 

[T Town Tommy]

You just think that because you don't have all the facts. I mean the really really real facts. Thankfully, the one person with the really really real facts came back from his Urban Meyer-esque retirement.

Easy there Sunday morning.

I will be out on the Left Coast in a couple of weeks. Got a few "business" meetings lined up. Maybe we could get together for an afternoon tea. Plus, ACamp owes me a tour of the Sunset Strip - payback for his trip to T Town for the Iron Bowl this past season. Been meaning to swing by the Whisky and travel back to the 80's rock scene for a while. You in?

 

[woolybug25]

It would be the equivalent of the Irish sending Bryant packing. Jones is third on the depth chart and one ahead of him is coming off a major injury. The two behind him have never ran one down in college. That's why Jones is not a number crunch. If he does what he needs to then he will probably be back. If not, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I disagree, my friend. We only have two runningbacks that have taken a snap on our team. The other two are true freshman.

Compared to Bama, they have three RB's with experience and two blue chip freshman behind them.

So it would be like us if we still had Cam McDaniel and we sent him packing now that we have two good RB recruits coming in. If you had to make a cut to our roster in that scenario, would you consider that a bad move? I mean, I would rather lose him (no offense to Cam, love that guy) than a depth front 7 guy or offensive lineman.

 

[Legacy]

I think the key point, if true, is that Saban supposedly said if he does what he is suppose to do, he'll be back on the team. That's not the tact of someone trying to free up space for numbers.

I tend to agree. Though we don't have all facts despite comments in the twitter link, Saban's tendency is to act quickly to suspend. For the minor offenses of judgement and violation of rules/codes (academics, late to meetings, pot possession, DUI, failure to obey, obstruction), reinstatement is possible. Players have the opportunity to refocus on school or to learn from their mistakes. Bama is not far off of the eighty-five scholarship number with offseason decisions by players still possible. Saban will even give second chances to an occasional player dismissed elsewhere after a year or two at a JC. For major offenses or mulitple violations, they are off the team. Of the four blue-chip RBs that signed in that class, two are gone with Jones suspended indefinitely.

If they were at LSU, the team would vote on taking them back after a second offense or an offense like battery that gets knocked down to a misdemeanor by a judge.

 

[Irish YJ]

Only the finest Italian tile in T Town's house. That tile looks like it came from Home Depot. Plus, I only pay in benjamins. Makes it much easier to conceal that much cash when traveling. And that's the real facts... for those who really want to know.

Those are Benjis 3T.
Are you a travertine guy?

 

[vmgsf]

Please provide a list of who is in Saban's doghouse. Is it everyone on the roster who is not one of the best 85?

Roster management. It is what it is. Saban himself makes it clear his job is to win football games - period. Why are Bama supporters here turning themselves into pretzels trying to make it look otherwise?

I actually dislike Saban less than Meyer because Saban does not try to pretend to be something he is not.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Please provide a list of who is in Saban's doghouse. Is it everyone on the roster who is not one of the best 85?

Roster management. It is what it is. Saban himself makes it clear his job is to win football games - period. Why are Bama supporters here turning themselves into pretzels trying to make it look otherwise?

I actually dislike Saban less than Meyer because Saban does not try to pretend to be something he is not.

Not all suspensions or transfers are related to roster management. Jones was briefly suspended during the past season. Coaches rarely announce the specific reasons, but the timing, length of suspension and Saban saying Jones would be back with the team soon if he did what he was supposed to do would indicate it was due to missing classes, failing to complete class work in a timely manner, or something like being late to practice or breaking curfew. So yes, he's been in Saban's doghouse before and there is apparently an issue that he hasn't fully corrected.

If Saban suspends players, a few of you automatically claim roster management, and if he doesn't, then you claim it's win at all costs over discipline.

 

[Legacy]

Doghouse list/Suspensions

Doghouse list/Suspensions

Please provide a list of who is in Saban's doghouse. Is it everyone on the roster who is not one of the best 85?

A few of the suspensions with timing:
--Dillon Lee and Ryan Anderson (freshman LBs at the time) were sent home before the 2012-13 National Championship game for curfew violations.

--From August through the regular season (2013) eight players were suspended for various reasons, only one of whom was not reinstated from their suspensions. That one was LaMichael Fanning ("violation of team rules") on Oct 24, 2013. Fanning bodyslammed a Missouri running back on his head on Oct 15. Fanning did not play again and transferred Dec 23.

-- Additionally, two other players, Xzavier Dickson (second string LB) and Alvin Kamara RB, were suspended from the 2013-14 Sugar Bowl. Kamara had not played that year. Kamara went to JC in February, and subsequently later in the month was arrested in Feb 2014 for driving on a suspended license and failure to appear. Dee Hart, RB, was also arrested in February for pot possession, but he had not been with Alabama since the Sugar Bowl. With those two gone, Alabama was six over eighty-five.

The numbers crunch in Feb 2014 went a long way to resolving itself without transfers when in late Feb four players were arrested for multiple incidents of second degree robbery and credit card fraud and were dismissed, leaving Alabama two over eighty-five.

The other 2014 offseason arrests included:
-- Tony Brown, a blue chip freshman CB who enrolled early, was arrested Jan 2014 for failure to obey and resisting arrest.
-- Dillon Lee, LB in April 2014 was arrested for DUI.
-- Altee Tenpenny, RB in April 2014 was arrested for pot possession.
-- Kenyon Drake, RB in July 2014 was arrested for obstructing a police investigation.
-- Jarron Reed, DE, was arrested for DUI in July 2014.
Both Drake and Reed were "suspended (from team activity) but not kicked off the team" (Saban)

Before fall practice on August 1, Saban announced Brandon Ivory, NG, who started twelve games the previous season, Jarran Reed who was expected to compete in the DE rotation and Tim Williams, LB, were suspended for "violating team rules".

Of all of these suspensions, only three transferred from Alabama - Fanning in Dec 2013, Kamara in Jan 2014, Tenpenny in Jan 2015.

Looking at these suspensions with the large majority returning from suspension as well as their timing, it's hard to conclude they were related to roster management. You would expect that for whatever reason Tyren Jones was suspended that the likelihood is that he will be reinstated.

 

[ndftbl]

Isn't Notre Dame "oversigned?"

Isn't Notre Dame "oversigned?"

I just read we now have 95 on the roster, counting 5th years.

It almost does not make sense for a player to voluntarily redshirt at Notre Dame now, since he'll probably only have a 50/50 shot of actually getting the 5th year.

So he basically just wasted a year of football.

Again, I am talking about the kid who voluntarily redshirts. If he was not going to play freshman year anyway, it obviously makes no difference.

Which includes most offensive linemen, and many defensive linemen.

 

[ulukinatme]

We're not at 95 really, most of the 5th years won't be retained. First off, ND doesn't "redshirt" in the traditional sense. Just because a player doesn't play freshman year doesn't mean we're going to offer them a spot on the roster once they're in grad school. We promise to pay for an ND undergrad degre, not grad school, so if an athlete is offered then it's just a bonus.

Also, if a kid doesn't play freshman year, it's unlikely we held him back from competition because he was ready and we wanted to save a year. If a kid is ready to play, he'll probably play. Kelly hasn't been shy about playing freshmen in the past. So, it's unlikely a kid wasted a year sitting out freshman year in any scenario, he probably wasn't going to see the field anyway.

 

[yankeeND]

I just read we now have 95 on the roster, counting 5th years.

It almost does not make sense for a player to voluntarily redshirt at Notre Dame now, since he'll probably only have a 50/50 shot of actually getting the 5th year.

So he basically just wasted a year of football.

Again, I am talking about the kid who voluntarily redshirts. If he was not going to play freshman year anyway, it obviously makes no difference.

Which includes most offensive linemen, and many defensive linemen.

It has taken a very long time for ND to get to this point. We now have options and this is great thing. All the while not compromising the opportunity for every kid that signs to earn their degree here too mind you. That one red-shirt year is huge in terms of development, and if that kid is not retained for a 5th year because there are better options then so be it, degree is in hand at that point. This might actually be the year we make it to 85 with the type of quality depth to make a nice run. We are in great shape!

 

[Legacy]

I just read we now have 95 on the roster, counting 5th years.

It almost does not make sense for a player to voluntarily redshirt at Notre Dame now, since he'll probably only have a 50/50 shot of actually getting the 5th year.

So he basically just wasted a year of football.

Again, I am talking about the kid who voluntarily redshirts. If he was not going to play freshman year anyway, it obviously makes no difference.

Which includes most offensive linemen, and many defensive linemen.

Source? 2015 Notre Dame Recruiting: Scholarships & Roster Depth ?

We have potentially seventeen fifth years who redshirted their freshman year. We have nine graduating seniors without eligibility left.

Not all potential fifth years are interested in graduate school, for which they are required to be accepted to be offered a fifth year. Or may want to play another year.

At Stanford, eleven of their eighteen enrollees in the Class of 2010 were fifth years this past year, though they may not have to enroll in graduate school. Establishing a tradition of inviting all fifth years back, if they want to, means lower year to year class sizes for Stanford because they too offer four year scholarships to everyone who signs. By my count, sixteen of their twenty in Standford's Class of 2011 are eligible for a fifth year this year.

Just a different way of doing things.

 

[ndftbl]

It has taken a very long time for ND to get to this point. We now have options and this is great thing. All the while not compromising the opportunity for every kid that signs to earn their degree here too mind you. That one red-shirt year is huge in terms of development, and if that kid is not retained for a 5th year because there are better options then so be it, degree is in hand at that point. This might actually be the year we make it to 85 with the type of quality depth to make a nice run. We are in great shape!

Thanks; that's why I said "now" this is the situation. I agree it was not, previously.

I am thinking of a guy like Johnny Williams, who definitely could have played and contributed this year.

But I agree that players like Williams will be among those who are eventually offered a fifth year, if they want to take it.

But there will still be many good players, who are not offered a fifth year. So they essentially would have wasted a year, where they could have at least played on special teams, or in spot duty.

We'll see this year, what happens.

 

[Legacy]

Mississippi State analysis

Mississippi State analysis

For the class of 2015 with twenty-eight signees, Miss St stands at ninety scholarship players - one of highest in the nation after NSD.

Signees/Enrollees
Over the last four recruiting classes, Mississippi State has signed 101 recruits. (ND has signed 87). It's to be determined how many Ms St will end up enrolling, but over the three Classes 2012-14, eight players did not qualify/did not enroll (vs 1 for ND).

Counting only enrolled signees, Miss St has 93, ND has 86. (Over the three classes 2012-14, Ms St enrolled 65 signees and ND enrolled 63 signees)

Juco players/Churn
Miss St signs Juco players unlike ND. Miss St has signed 11 Juco players over the four classes (ave almost three per year). For comparison with ND and to take into consideration churn, two Juco players playing two years each would equal one four year signee for ND. So, halving the eleven Juco players would be 5.5.

Five from Ms St's 93 is 88. (ND is still 86)

As an indicator of falling short of eighty-five total players after signing, last year Ms St gave out scholarships to two walk-on players. One player transferred into their program.

Comparison of Players Lost from Classes 2012-14
- Did not Enroll - 7 for Ms St, 1 for ND
- Med Scholarships - 0 for Ms St, 0 for ND
- Transfers Out - 4 for Ms St, 6 for ND
- Arrests w. Dismissals - 0 for Ms St, 2 for ND
- Dismissals due to Academic reasons - 0 for Ms St, 1 for ND (only Russell in Classes '12-'14)

Counting backwards
The 2012 class was twenty-eight (three counted backwards to 2011).
The 2013 class was twenty-one and unable to count any backwards.
The 2014 class was twenty-four with two early enrollees counting back to 2013, leaving twenty-two.
The 2015 class was twenty-eight with six early enrollees. Three counted backwards makes the 2014 class twenty-five and leaves 2015 at twenty-five.

Getting down from ninety
Medical - three players were injured and out for the rest of the season - two seniors with eligibility and one junior. Injuries were ACL, Achilles, and hamstring
Walk-ons - two had scholarships last year and both have eligibility
Graduates not offered - one player with eligibility from the Class of 2011 is on the scout team. One player from the 2012 class is not on the two deep and has not played significant time.

Some of the Class of 2015 may not qualify. There will always also be attrition in players deciding not to play another year, transfers, etc. Ms St has a low number of dismissals, med scholarships, arrests with dismissals and less transfers than ND. There is room with these considerations for Ms St to be at eighty-five before fall practice.

 

[ND NYC]

per posts above...might it be better to shoot for 17 +/- a couple guys per year?
17x5=85

so you always have about 15-19 5th year seniors?

is this what Stanford does/is doing?

 

[Legacy]

per posts above...might it be better to shoot for 17 +/- a couple guys per year?
17x5=85

so you always have about 15-19 5th year seniors?

is this what Stanford does/is doing?

ND would have to get rid of the rule for fifth years needing to be accepted into graduate school. Student-athletes could concentrate on their studies and bulking up and learning the systems while redshirting their first year. Studies could be spread out over four and a half years.

Stanford class number sizes (enrollees) have been: 21 ('09), 18 ('10), 20 ('11), 21 ('12), 11 ('13), 20 ('14), 21 ('15). -- Ave - 19

Stanford's fifth years per season have been: 13 (2014), 9 (2013), 4 (2012), 8 (2011) -- Ave 8.5
ND's fifth years have been: 5+Riggs transfer in ('14), 6 ('13), 6 ('12), 6 ('11). -- Ave - 6

During those seven years, Stanford's attrition losses have been: three transfers out, three medical scholarships, two quit football. No academic casualities.

Our attrition is higher plus we have more early entrants to the draft. So, maybe twenty-one or twenty-two per class at the least if we expand our average fifth years from six to eight, assuming the Faculty Board in Charge of Athletics is not involved in approving graduate school acceptances.

 

[irishtrain]

Funny how now the over signed deal comes up when its regarding 5th year guys and the 'Irish', man we cant win for the love of Pete. Now we're Alabama (sec school) for over signing people. Please get a grip national media people. Its being done right and much different than the semi pro boys. As far as transfers I'm all for it when they are quality guys like Pat Eilers and Riggs. Its Ok for Notre Dame to get their @##$% handed to them with and under manned roster but now when the playing field is leveled people scream bloody murder on NOTRE DAME OVERSIGNED angle. Kelly must have said to somebody upstairs 'this ain't happening again to me or I'm gone'. At least I hope he did. Good for him.

 

[Legacy]

Bama Oversigning

Bama Oversigning

RollBamaRoll has as much fun speculating on who goes and who stays (mostly who goes) as others do. 2015 Alabama Crimson Tide Football Roster: Crunching the Numbers

"It seems about this time every year, Bama fans take to wondering how the heck the football team will get to the 85 scholarship limit. Since student records are private, the public may never know who is on scholarship. However, a few educated guesses mixed with some pure speculation may shed the light on the number crunch ahead for Nick Saban and Co."

At ninety-three after NSD, then minus two transfers already mentioned - Dee Liner and Altee Tenpenny - but add two walkons already awarded scholarships...

Classic commentary by one of their editors:
"'Croot 'em in masses then fire their asses."

 

[T Town Tommy]

RollBamaRoll has as much fun speculating on who goes and who stays (mostly who goes) as others do. 2015 Alabama Crimson Tide Football Roster: Crunching the Numbers

"It seems about this time every year, Bama fans take to wondering how the heck the football team will get to the 85 scholarship limit. Since student records are private, the public may never know who is on scholarship. However, a few educated guesses mixed with some pure speculation may shed the light on the number crunch ahead for Nick Saban and Co."

At ninety-three after NSD, then minus two transfers already mentioned - Dee Liner and Altee Tenpenny - but add two walkons already awarded scholarships...

Classic commentary by one of their editors:
"'Croot 'em in masses then fire their asses."

The two walk ons on scholly was reportedly for spring semenster only.

Four fifth year seniors as well so there is six if they aren't invited back. That leaves 85 on scholly.

As the article states, probably two fifth year's come back leaving Bama at 87. One of the QBs on the depth chart probably leaves and my guess is which one of Cornwell and Bateman is behind on the depth chart. That would leave them one over which seems reasonable given a potential academic casualty, additional transfer, off the field issue, etc. I'd say Saban is right where he should be.

I actually like the quote from above. I may save that one for future use.

 

[Legacy]

"'Croot 'em in masses then fire their asses." pretty well sums it up.

Reminds me of Texas's "Bag 'em and Tag 'em" after Junior Day.

I guess you can put someone on a spring scholarship only so they don't count when fall practice begins.

Bama starts out at a solid eighty-two. I'd keep Luatua for depth at OG. Otherwise I'd be thin and may burn a redshirt or two from their freshmen OGs. Spring may bring OL changes.

You don't need fifth year depth at CB behind two juniors and rising sophs, so Washington and Sylvie would not be offered.

Kirven played the same number of games as Liner (3) at DE. DE depth is currently at eight.
NG depth in the 3-4 is currently at seven, including Lake.
Lake played more games (8) than Kirven.
Based on games played you would choose Lake. Based on depth, you would keep Kirven.

If O.J. Smith's injury or academics hinder him, the situation resolves itself. Otherwise, one of the juniors is pushed out due to the oversigning.

I think Morris moves on or is encouraged to.

Christian Bell's grayshirt probably doesn't mean much for getting into next year's class.

 

[PANDFAN]

Whether you like Bobby Petrino or not, he didn't invent scholarship grayshirting - SBNation.com

uth Carolina high school running back Matt Colburn made national news when he and his high school coach claimed his 2015 Louisville scholarship offer was pulled right before Signing Day, after nearly a year of commitment.

In its place, Louisville offered Colburn a grayshirt. Colburn balked and signed with Wake Forest.

Louisville declined to comment on Colburn, grayshirting, or any other process of roster building under Petrino. To better understand Colburn's situation and the concept of grayshirts, SB Nation spoke with FBS recruiting coordinators across the country. To address the situation directly, these coordinators requested anonymity.

What exactly is grayshirting? The term is derived from the official practice of redshirting. That's when a player is enrolled and practicing, but staying out of games for one season. Grayshirting is extreme redshirting. A player maintains his non-binding verbal commitment but does not enroll until the spring semester, so as to not count against the current year’s scholarship limit.

How common is it for a school to offer a grayshirt? Increasingly common. Just this cycle, we saw uses by schools like Alabama, Arizona, Auburn, Mississippi State, Texas, Utah, Western Michigan, and Idaho, coached by Petrino's brother Paul, to name a few.

So grayshirting is an epidemic against helpless student-athletes? Not always. Motives can vary wildly. In some cases, a committed high school senior fails to qualify academically. Rather than enroll in a junior college, some players will opt to work on their academics and re-qualify for the following season.

Grayshirting gained national prominence in 2012 when two Alabama commitments were asked to take them after both happened to need knee surgeries. One, defensive lineman Darius Philon, declined and signed a scholarship with Petrino’s Arkansas Razorbacks.

Sometimes a player will grayshirt for the chance to play for a bigger program. Kansas State safety Ty Zimmerman opted to grayshirt rather than take a scholarship from a non-FBS school and ended up an All-American.

But neither of those examples applies to Colburn. Correct. According to coaches outside of Louisville, the three-star had no academic issues, was healthy, and committed to UofL last June after receiving offers from Georgia Southern and Old Dominion.

So why did Louisville attempt to grayshirt Colburn? According to his high school coach, Colburn shut down his recruiting until he was told this month by Louisville defensive coordinator Todd Grantham that because three Louisville defensive backs declared early for the NFL Draft, the Cardinals needed more space to replace them. Colburn was asked to enroll in January 2016.

One FBS recruiting coordinator disagreed on the reasoning.

"More often than not, it's about perceived talent, what the coaches think. If they asked this kid to grayshirt, it's not because they're deeper at running back than DB. It's because they feel like he's the most expendable in that class regardless of position. A lot of times, and you're seeing it now more and more, offers are getting thrown out earlier in the recruiting process before a lot of staffs can really properly evaluate a kid."

"I think there was probably some apprehension there that had nothing to do with position," another coach said. "It was apprehension that they threw that scholarship out there in the first place."

 

[phork]

So Shady.. I hope this kid wins a Heisman.

 

[Legacy]

Another saying is: Sign em all and let God (Saban) sort em out.