Oversigning Recruits

[Bishop2b5]

Greyshirting is fine as long as a coach is upfront with a recruit about it and doesn't do what Petrino did: inform the kid way too late in the process for the kid to have a reasonable amount of time to make other arrangements. If a coach is honest about the process and lets the recruit know well in advance, then you're not taking anything away from him. You're just giving him an option he otherwise wouldn't have had. Without greyshirting, the recruit wouldn't have an offer from you at all. With a greyshirt, he at least has the option of joining your program at a later date. You just have to be upfront and never renege on that offer the following year.

 

[dublinirish]

Greyshirting is fine as long as a coach is upfront with a recruit about it and doesn't do what Petrino did: inform the kid way too late in the process for the kid to have a reasonable amount of time to make other arrangements. If a coach is honest about the process and lets the recruit know well in advance, then you're not taking anything away from him. You're just giving him an option he otherwise wouldn't have had. Without greyshirting, the recruit wouldn't have an offer from you at all. With a greyshirt, he at least has the option of joining your program at a later date. You just have to be upfront and never renege on that offer the following year.

i think also for kids who need another year of conditioning it can be blessing also. A kid who was very young graduating HS like Romeo Okwara could probably have taken a grayshirt somewhere and it would have done him to the world of good. Telling a kid at the 11th hour though is on the same level as pulling his scholarship offer, a pure dirtbag move.

 

[Legacy]

Each year with Alabama you see boards discussing who will make the last two or three slots and who will move on. Based on knowledge that is public, this year Bama has eighty-two players solid with six players whose names are mentioned as on the bubble.

One of these years perhaps we'll see those last six players all deciding to go elsewhere. Wouldn't that be in everyone's best interests? At eighty-two, this year's greyshirt would get a scholarship plus two walkons.

Alabama, at least since Saban became their coach, has not allowed a player to transfer to another SEC school, though two have ended up at a SEC school after going to a JUCO.

 

[Legacy]

Who doesn't oversign?

Who doesn't oversign?

Northwestern's coach Pat Fitzgerald notably said on one Signing Day: "We have 85 scholarships, we had 17 to give and we're at 85 right now."

ND, the Big Ten and many other conferences effectively offer four year scholarships. The Irish guarantee four years, and a number of Irish sites speculate on which potential fifth years from the Class of 2011 will be offered one more year. Here are the scholaship numbers going into spring camp for ND, NW and a number of other private schools:

ND - Eighty-one with nine potential fifth years from the Class of 2011
Northwestern - Seventy-two, with fourteen potential fifth years - one from the Class of 2010 and thirteen from the Class of 2011 (Two potential fifth years are not on their projected spring two deep.)
USC - Seventy-five, including twelve fifth years from the Class of 2011
Stanford - Seventy-nine, including eleven potential fifth years - one from the Class of 2010 and ten from the Class of 2011
Miami - Eighty-two, including four from the Class of 2011
Vanderbilt - Eighty-three, including six from the Class of 2011
Clemson - Eighty-four, including nine from the Class of 2011 and three scholarhsip walkons in 2014

In comparison, Alabama - Eighty-two, which inludes two scholarship walkons and after two offseason transfers of undergraduates. This does not include one grayshirt from the Class of 2015. Alabama has seven potential fifth years from the Class of 2011.

For the Class of 2016, Alabama has fourteen Seniors in 2015 without any elibility left and eight potential fifth years for 2016. If Bama fulfills their grayshirt offer with a scholarship and if all potential fifth years are not given scholarships, they will balance out twenty-five incoming scholarship players in the Class of 2016. To have some fifth years for 2016, Alabama will again need undergraduate transfers.

Nick Saban and Alabama have a policy of not disclosing scholarship numbers. Scarbinsky: Alabama's don't-tell policy hurts Saban's oversigning defense (From Al.com)

 

[Legacy]

Tennessee Oversigning Numbers - Scholarship Math

Tennessee Oversigning Numbers - Scholarship Math

Typically, the SEC East has less oversigning issues than the SEC West. One of the most frequently asked questions this past recruiting year is how Tennessee can sign 59 players in their last two classes - 32 in 2014 and 27 - and reach 85 this year.

(I have previously posted how he got to eighty-five after signing a 2014 class size of thirty-two. He was actually able to give three walkons scholarships in 2014, which I am not counting this year.)

Here's how Butch Jones oversigned and managed his roster to get to 85:

Tennessee ended the 2014 year with 78 scholarship players.
With one academic casualty and ten seniors without eligibility left, Butch Jones was then at sixty-seven.

At that point, Jones had eighteen scholarships to give for the Class of 2015. In December, he gave a new walk-on a scholarship and took a graduate transfer in. Jones then was at 69 and had 16 scholarships to given.

Transfers and Decommitments
At the start of December, Jones was at twenty-seven 2015 verbal commitments with sixteen scholarships to give. During December, as Jones was pursuing visits with targetted blue-chip players, four verbals decommitted, probably having their scholarship offers pulled. One recruit verballed in December. Three current scholarship players announced their transfers. Net was minus six, putting Tennessee at twenty-two verbals with scholarship offers with nineteen scholarships to give. Jones would be at 88 scholarship players.

In January, five more recruits gave their verbal commitments, putting the class at twenty-seven. Three more undergraduates announced their transfers. Jones was at 90. Also, ten of his 2015 class enrolled early for the spring semester. Further attrition could be expected or further scholarships could be pulled from the remaining seventeen.

In February prior to NSD , three more undergraduates announced they were transferrring and one player was dismissed. One more recruit verballed on NSD. Jones was at 87. Two of the 2015 class were "blueshirts" in that they verballed but never had official visits. (Grayshirts are offered scholarshipis for the following spring semester, having to pay their way in the fall.) Those two could technically walk-on in the fall and then be offered scholarships, counting towards 2016. Jones was at eighty-five.

SEC Recruiting Rule Changes
SEC rules, which are intended to limit oversigning, now require teams to be at eighty-five after NSD. So, transfers and other attrition are being announced in Dec and Jan. Also, Tennessee clears recruits academically prior to signing. The last time Tennessee had recruits sign but not enroll due to not meeting academic requirements was with the 2010 class. Tennessee has not had a player convert to a medical scholarship in over six years.

What to Expect
Jones has to clear two more spaces for his blueshirts by the fall. Tenn fans expect one graduating senior not to pursue a fifth year and another signee from the 2014 class, who came from a Community College, to pursue his fourth year elsewhere. Also, two graduating seniors with eligibility are not on the projected spring two deep as well as three juniors. All five are being passed by more talented sophomores.

2016 Class
Jones will lose sixteen scholarship players next year. At this point, Tennessee has six verbal commitments and the two blueshirts for the Class of 2016, leaving them eight more scholarships to give - barring attrition, decommitments, etc. Once the roster is reduced by two for the blueshirts, Jones will have ten available scholarships for the rest of his 2016 class.

Stay tuned. Tennessee fans are getting used to Jones' active roster management style - as is the rest of the SEC.

 

[Legacy]

Shamelessly self-quoting

Shamelessly self-quoting

Another saying is: Sign em all and let God (Saban) sort em out.

Nick Saban Returns From 2-Year Recruiting Expedition With 94 Blue-Chip Players

 

[Legacy]

Ohio State Scholarship Numbers

Ohio State Scholarship Numbers

Basically, unchanged since Signing Day - Eighty-Eight

The Big Ten rules allow oversigning (eighty-five) by three.

Meyer was still recruiting two uncommitted blue chip players with visits the last two weekends in January (Gustin and Beckner), who were deciding between Ohio State and other schools, and decided on other schools. Three other players signed with Ohio State (two on NSD and one on Feb 2).

You wonder what Meyer would have done had he signed the two he missed on. Pulled offers? More medical scholarships? Less fifth years? - he only has five entering spring practice. ...And what the Big Ten would have done.
Breaking Down Ohio State's spring football roster

Meyer: "How aware am I of the roster? About as well as you can be," Meyer said. "There's a couple guys that you're just not sure can continue playing. You have to just to be aware.

"But there's also the truth that you don't know for the next couple weeks, couple months, with these injuries what happens. So you have to prepare. "But you also can't do the unthinkable and that's be stuck with 87 scholarship players come June or July." Source

Three more to go....

 

[Legacy]

Spring Roster Scholarship Numbers

Spring Roster Scholarship Numbers

for selected teams:

SEC
Alabama-85 (2 walkons given scholarships and one greyshirt not included)
Mississippi State - 88
LSU-84

Florida-79
Georgia-85
South Carolina-84
Tennessee-82
Vanderbilt-83

Big Ten
Michigan-81
Ohio State-88
Penn State-82
Northwestern-87

Texas-82

Pac-12
UCLA-85
USC-74
Stanford-78

ACC
Clemson-84
Miami-81

Notre Dame-89

These don't include walkon players who received scholarships in 2014. Most recent changes to Alabama's and Michigan's numbers have been included.

 

[Legacy]

SEC Walkons given Scholarships 2014 by Team

SEC Walkons given Scholarships 2014 by Team

An indirect measurement of whether total recruiting numbers are keeping up with attrition and churn in a program are the numbers of walkons given scholarships in a given year.

A couple of considerations first. Schools that commit to four year scholarships, like Vanderbilt, instead of the first two years and then annually, may have less scholarships to give to walkons. Also, teams with higher number of signees, who do not end up enrolling as well as higher churn with scholarships to players from JCs like South Carolina, may have more walkon scholarshiips.

East
Georgia - 2
Florida - 2
South Carolina - 6
Tennessee - 2
Kentucky - 3
Missouri - 1
Vanderbilt - 0

West
Arkansas - 6
Texas A&M - 3
Ole Miss - 1
Miss St - 1
LSU - 0
Auburn - 0
Alabama - 0

It's noteworthy that Tennessee despite enrolling a class of thirty-two had two scholarships available for walkons last year. Arkansas's six walkon scholarships in 2014 were in spite of four year (2011-14) total class numbers of 103 (including 32 in 2011). Also, programs with new coaches as at Tennessee and at Kentucky often see more attrition prior to the fall opening up spots for walkon scholarships.

Newer SEC coaching years with first years
Brett Bielema (Ark) - 2013
Mark Stoops (Kty) - 2013
Butch Jones (Tenn) - 2013
Hugh Freeze (Ole Miss) - 2012

 

[Irish YJ]

An indirect measurement of whether total recruiting numbers are keeping up with attrition and churn in a program are the numbers of walkons given scholarships in a given year.

A couple of considerations first. Schools that commit to four year scholarships, like Vanderbilt, instead of the first two years and then annually, may have less scholarships to give to walkons. Also, teams with higher number of signees, who do not end up enrolling as well as higher churn with scholarships to players from JCs like South Carolina, may have more walkon scholarshiips.

East
Georgia - 2
Florida - 2
South Carolina - 6
Tennessee - 2
Kentucky - 3
Missouri - 1
Vanderbilt - 0

West
Arkansas - 6
Texas A&M - 3
Ole Miss - 1
Miss St - 1
LSU - 0
Auburn - 0
Alabama - 0

It's noteworthy that Tennessee despite enrolling a class of thirty-two had two scholarships available for walkons last year. Arkansas's six walkon scholarships in 2014 were in spite of four year (2011-14) total class numbers of 103 (including 32 in 2011). Also, programs with new coaches as at Tennessee and at Kentucky often see more attrition prior to the fall opening up spots for walkon scholarships.

Newer SEC coaching years with first years
Brett Bielema (Ark) - 2013
Mark Stoops (Kty) - 2013
Butch Jones (Tenn) - 2013
Hugh Freeze (Ole Miss) - 2012

Thanks for the breakdown.
I know it's been said before, but I'm perfectly OK with oversigning 1 or 2 knowing the average attrition, so long as greyshirting and player dumping is not involved.


South Carolina......

 

[Legacy]

Thanks for the breakdown.
I know it's been said before, but I'm perfectly OK with oversigning 1 or 2 knowing the average attrition, so long as greyshirting and player dumping is not involved.


South Carolina......

I agree, YJ. Fewer schools are falling into that category.

For a full Irish squad that each year will be able to redshirt ten or so players from the incoming freshman class, we will want to save room for those fifth years to make their significant contributions on and off the field, especially for the linemen who redshirt and bulk up with our depth. I expect then that we will continue to have more graduate transfers and possibly more early entrants to the draft.

 

[Irish YJ]

I agree, YJ. Fewer schools are falling into that category.

For a full Irish squad that each year will be able to redshirt ten or so players from the incoming freshman class, we will want to save room for those fifth years to make their significant contributions on and off the field, especially for the linemen who redshirt and bulk up with our depth. I expect then that we will continue to have more graduate transfers and possibly more early entrants to the draft.

Yep, agreed. I think as the deck gets stacked with more and more talent, we'll begin to see more early entries and transfers (graduate or not) as you say. I'd venture to guess BK knows who these folks are, most of the time long before NSD. I just hope we can level out the position deficiencies. S is today's LBs. They did a damn good job filling the LB holes, hope they can do the same with S and DE this year. The ups and downs will always happen, just seemed like they happened on the D side of things way too much prior to BVG.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Classy notification by fax. Smdh


Sent via tapatalk

 

[Legacy]

Post-Spring Teams over 85

Post-Spring Teams over 85

The following teams are over 85 scholarship numbers:

Notre Dame - 89
Ohio State - 88
Mississippi State - 88
Georgia - 88

Also, Alabama is at 85 (not counting 2 walkons given scholarships in Jan and one grayshirt)

If you know of any more, feel free to post.

 

[greyhammer90]

The following teams are over 85 scholarship numbers:

Notre Dame - 89
Ohio State - 88
Mississippi State - 88
Georgia - 88

Also, Alabama is at 85 (not counting 2 walkons given scholarships in Jan and one grayshirt)

If you know of any more, feel free to post.

We're number 1! We're number 1!

 

[MNIrishman]

I won't be comfortable until we're regularly kicking out poor performers. Take everyone who looks decent on film and make cuts. 120 players over four years seems like a good target.

 

[Legacy]

I won't be comfortable until we're regularly kicking out poor performers. Take everyone who looks decent on film and make cuts. 120 players over four years seems like a good target.

Trying for a competitive advantage?

120 over four years would be outdoing the SEC, which is now in its fourth class with the recruiting restrictions.

Only four SEC teams have signed more than 100 players over that four year period.

Only Tennessee has enrolled more than 100 (signed 102 and enrolled 101).

Ten of the fourteen teams in the SEC have enrolled 93 or less recruits over four years. (ND has enrolled 87 over the same four years.) If you take into account the players from JUCO for the SEC teams and count them as 1/2, those ten SEC teams' numbers drop from the low 90s to the upper 80s.

Besides Tennessee (mostly the last two classes of 59 total), the other teams over 93 enrolled players are: Georgia (98), Florida (97) and Alabama (97).

Every team in the SEC - except Vanderbilt - takes players who may not qualify for admission. The only teams who have more than four over those four years (one per year) players who sign but do not qualify are:
South Carolina (10)
Mississippi State (8)
Georgia (5)

With the SEC recruiting rules, every signee counts towards restrictions. So, every team is more careful to see that players can meet admission standards.

 

[Andy in Sactown]

Trying for a competitive advantage?

120 over four years would be outdoing the SEC, which is now in its fourth class with the recruiting restrictions.

Only four SEC teams have signed more than 100 players over that four year period.

Only Tennessee has enrolled more than 100 (signed 102 and enrolled 101).

Ten of the fourteen teams in the SEC have enrolled 93 or less recruits over four years. (ND has enrolled 87 over the same four years.) If you take into account the players from JUCO for the SEC teams and count them as 1/2, those ten SEC teams' numbers drop from the low 90s to the upper 80s.

Besides Tennessee (mostly the last two classes of 59 total), the other teams over 93 enrolled players are: Georgia (98), Florida (97) and Alabama (97).

Every team in the SEC - except Vanderbilt - takes players who may not qualify for admission. The only teams who have more than four over those four years (one per year) players who sign but do not qualify are:
South Carolina (10)
Mississippi State (8)
Georgia (5)

With the SEC recruiting rules, every signee counts towards restrictions. So, every team is more careful to see that players can meet admission standards.

And why on earth would I count their JUCO transfers as half a player? I was under the impression we stopped counting people as fractions in 1865 with the passing of the 13th Amendment.

 

[Legacy]

And why on earth would I count their JUCO transfers as half a player? I was under the impression we stopped counting people as fractions in 1865 with the passing of the 13th Amendment.

Andy,

Class signing numbers for determining oversigning are one thing, but, IMO a couple of factors need to be taken into consideration prior to comparisions to schools like ND and Big Ten schools among others.

- How many of the signees actually enroll?
- JUCOs

Signee Numbers
South Carolina is a good example. They have signed ninety-seven players in the past four years (129 in five years).

ND has signed eighty-nine (112 in five yrs).

Enrollee Numbers
South Carolina has enrolled eighty-seven in four years.
---Six from the Class of 2014 did not qualify. One signee went to JUCO in 2012 and then again did not qualify in 2014, so he's counted twice in those numbers.

ND has enrolled eighty-seven. (I am assuming all of both schools classes will enroll, which in Carolina's case may or may not happen. So the Gamecock's enrollee numbers may be equal or less than ND's.

JUCOs/Community College
To account for what I call "player churn" I consider how many players come from the JUCO/Community College ranks. ND does not accept JUCOs. South Carolina does. Spurrier has had to sign more players (30 in 2015) to get to eighty-five this year and to dip into the JUCO ranks to get players with experience and can contribute immediately. But they play only two years the freeing up scholarships. They signed five JUCO players in the Class of 2015 and one in the Class of 2014.But that, of course, increases his signee/enrollee numbers as these players graduate.

Should Carolina have signed JUCO players in the 2011 and 2012 classes, they would have graduated by 2015 barring any attrition.

At this point, comparing both schools' numbers is fair - both are at eighty-seven enrollees over four years.

Attrition
After that, you have attrition for whatever reason - transfers, academic disqualification, quitting football, dismissals, early entrants to the NFL, etc.
South Carolina has a higher attrition rate than ND. A good indirect measurement of that is the federal graduation rate, which is more accurate for this purpose. South Carolina's has been in the low 50s. ND's has been in the 80s.

So, considering enrollment data, JUCO players, attrition rates, you would expect South Carolina to sign more to get to the same place Notre Dame is. Finally, since Carolina is chasing eighty-five due to higher attrition, signing classes of thirty is not necessarily forcing underclassment to transfer like some other SEC schools do.

 

[Andy in Sactown]

One signee went to JUCO in 2012 and then again did not qualify in 2014, so he's counted twice in those numbers.

Now that makes sense, but then I'd be inclined to just count players under those situations as "1/2" (or more accurately 1 instead of 2), since there are certainly JUCO transfers that come in and play and should be counted as a whole 1, as opposed to 1/2.

Regardless of the roster arithmetic/semantics, I appreciate your well thought out analysis and equally thoughtful response. Good food for thought.

 

[MNIrishman]

Trying for a competitive advantage?

120 over four years would be outdoing the SEC, which is now in its fourth class with the recruiting restrictions.

Only four SEC teams have signed more than 100 players over that four year period.

Only Tennessee has enrolled more than 100 (signed 102 and enrolled 101).

Ten of the fourteen teams in the SEC have enrolled 93 or less recruits over four years. (ND has enrolled 87 over the same four years.) If you take into account the players from JUCO for the SEC teams and count them as 1/2, those ten SEC teams' numbers drop from the low 90s to the upper 80s.

Besides Tennessee (mostly the last two classes of 59 total), the other teams over 93 enrolled players are: Georgia (98), Florida (97) and Alabama (97).

Every team in the SEC - except Vanderbilt - takes players who may not qualify for admission. The only teams who have more than four over those four years (one per year) players who sign but do not qualify are:
South Carolina (10)
Mississippi State (8)
Georgia (5)

With the SEC recruiting rules, every signee counts towards restrictions. So, every team is more careful to see that players can meet admission standards.

;p

 

[Legacy]

Missouri getting to 85 - Oversigning and Getting to 85

Missouri getting to 85 - Oversigning and Getting to 85

Add Missouri to the Oversigning list.

Missouri looked like they were going to hit ninety scholarship players with twenty-four verbal commits. This was also after having one player (Shane Ray) enter the NFL draft early. Missouri recruited hard until Signing Day. Seven recruits committed during the last two weeks in January. Two of their recruits made Signing Day decisions, too.

But one recruit who'd verballed for 2015 was not cleared and went to Community College, recommitted to the Class of 2016. Eighty-nine.

Counting Down
Three more undergraduate players have announced their transfers after the spring game. Eighty-six.

Their boards are speculating another signee will be a sign-and-place to a Community College. But there's been no announcement yet.

Three of their twelve redshirt seniors (fifth years), who are still listed on their roster, are not on their two deep after Missouri's spring game. So, they will easily get to eighty-five without much impact on their RS Senior class.

Perspective
In fairness, Missouri has never had oversigning like other SEC schools like Alabama. Their four year (last four classes) signing numbers (91) are lower than any other SEC teams except Vanderbilt (88). Their four year enrollment numbers are the same as Vanderbilt (88) - and tied for the second lowest in the SEC. (South Carolina with 87 over four years is the lowest enrollment numbers over four year.) Their classes from 2011-13 saw enrollment numbers in the upper teens. Alabama, for example, has a four year enrollment of 97.

 

[Legacy]

SEC- Expected class sizes and Senior class numbers

SEC- Expected class sizes and Senior class numbers

Team---Class size (est)---Sr Class --- Current Scholarship Players '15
Georgia ---- 25 ------ 20 ----- 84
Florida ----- 16-19 --- 11 ----- 77
Tenn --------20-22 --- 16 ----- 83
Mo ---------- 22-24 --- 16 ----- 85
Vandy ------ 25 -------- 8 ------ 84
S. Carol ---- 16-18 --- 13 ----- 82
Kentucky --- 21-23 -- 18 -- (not calculated)

LSU ---------- 24-25 --- 9 ----- 82
Alabama ---- 24-25 --- 17 ----- 85
A&M ----------21-24 --- 15 ----- 83
Auburn ------ 20-22 --- 15 ----- 83
Miss St ------ 17-19 --- 13 ----- 83
Ole Miss ---- 20-22 --- 16 ----- 80
Ark ----------- 15-17 --- 13 -- (not calculated)

Sources for estimated class sizes:
SEC Football: Current State of Recruiting in the Western Division
SEC Football: Current State of Recruiting in the Eastern Division

Scholarship players numbers for 2015 are mine. I don't watch Kentucky or Arkansas so I cannot provide those figures.

At this point, any further attrition for these teams may come from recruits not clearing NCAA minimum standards. Attrition from undergraduate transfers and medical scholarships should be minimal.

Attrition for the '16 classes and season, after calculating the Senior class losses from the estimated class sizes and scholarships available from 2015 counts less than eighty-five, could be for different reasons for different schools.

For example, the difference in Vandy's numbers may be because fewer players there take a fifth year, so graduating redshirt juniors may leave opening up scholarships.
In LSU's case, they do not carry a lot of fifth years and, usually have a high number of players enter the draft early.

 

[Legacy]

In summary...

In summary...

I shared it because several in here go out of their way at every opportunity to bash the school I attended and love. Negative stories are to be gleefully celebrated, and anything positive is to be dismissed, denigrated, spun or ignored... all done while patting yourself on the back about how noble, fair-minded, brilliant, and damned near perfect you are and how everyone else is scum that is beneath contempt. If you've made up your mind that nothing good could possibly happen at Bama, Saban's pure evil, we do nothing but mistreat and use players, injured players get cast aside, etc., etc., I see that any information to the contrary is not tolerated, as it doesn't fit with your already established opinion. I simply pointed out a nice story that showed Bama doing a good thing. Perhaps I should have known better.

I got involved in this discussion because I wanted to see if I could bring some analysis to the numbers and conclusions which seemed to be hardened. Maybe I could provide some basis for IE's "intelligent and constructive" goal. I can't say that I had a firm opinion before, but can say that my analysis has led me more towards understanding the SEC and their fans's side.

I concluded that the recruiting rules that four years ago the SEC Presidents instituted in spite of the unanimous objection of the SEC coaches has been working to prevent some of the egregious (in my mind) mistakes of the past. Some involved particular coaches and ended after they left. Each institution has its own situation. Alabama, Auburn, Georgia and Florida, for instance, are different than South Carolina, the Mississippis, and Missouri. Then there is Vanderbilt.

In some cases, the school recruited over twenty-five in a class because so many players were transferring prior to NSD. They were trying to make up for losses rather than oversigning and driving out undergraduates who were not productive enough. In some cases, most signing classes were below twenty-five year after year with maybe one exception.

Other factors that Irish fans never see are:
Academics, JUCO players increasing churn rates, arrests and subsequent dismissals and players who transfer of their own accord. Some of the SEC public universities really do offer de facto four year scholarships.

As far as academics, (almost) always at ND recruits need to pass admissions prior to signing. That seems to be the case with Tenn, Ga, Alabama to name a few. Some high school football recruits whom schools take have not had a very good primary and secondary educations. But, if the player can pass the clearinghouse and is willing to work at his academics and at his football, good for him and for the university and coaching staff for giving him the chance to succeed in life.

I think it's also the exception that a player who keeps out of trouble and works at his academics does not get a de facto two year scholarship in SEC schools. Also worth applauding the SEC (public) schools - and other conference schools of course - is any commitment to in-state recruits and keeping their promises for a four year education no matter whether they are in the two deep or not. Whether that player wants to transfer elsewhere to play more is up to him.

You can probably guess the situations that I would hold a SEC school or coach accountable for. Under the topic "Transfer List" I posted some analyses that illustrate how other conference schools operate and where I also made comparisons to SEC schools,

This is and will be a continuing opportunity for dialogue for all of us with differing and perhaps strong opinions. Feel free to comment if you wish. IE is a great forum for just that.

 

[T Town Tommy]

I got involved in this discussion because I wanted to see if I could bring some analysis to the numbers and conclusions which seemed to be hardened. Maybe I could provide some basis for IE's "intelligent and constructive" goal. I can't say that I had a firm opinion before, but can say that my analysis has led me more towards understanding the SEC and their fans's side.

I concluded that the recruiting rules that four years ago the SEC Presidents instituted in spite of the unanimous objection of the SEC coaches has been working to prevent some of the egregious (in my mind) mistakes of the past. Some involved particular coaches and ended after they left. Each institution has its own situation. Alabama, Auburn, Georgia and Florida, for instance, are different than South Carolina, the Mississippis, and Missouri. Then there is Vanderbilt.

In some cases, the school recruited over twenty-five in a class because so many players were transferring prior to NSD. They were trying to make up for losses rather than oversigning and driving out undergraduates who were not productive enough. In some cases, most signing classes were below twenty-five year after year with maybe one exception.

Other factors that Irish fans never see are:
Academics, JUCO players increasing churn rates, arrests and subsequent dismissals and players who transfer of their own accord. Some of the SEC public universities really do offer de facto four year scholarships.

As far as academics, (almost) always at ND recruits need to pass admissions prior to signing. That seems to be the case with Tenn, Ga, Alabama to name a few. Some high school football recruits whom schools take have not had a very good primary and secondary educations. But, if the player can pass the clearinghouse and is willing to work at his academics and at his football, good for him and for the university and coaching staff for giving him the chance to succeed in life.

I think it's also the exception that a player who keeps out of trouble and works at his academics does not get a de facto two year scholarship in SEC schools. Also worth applauding the SEC (public) schools - and other conference schools of course - is any commitment to in-state recruits and keeping their promises for a four year education no matter whether they are in the two deep or not. Whether that player wants to transfer elsewhere to play more is up to him.

You can probably guess the situations that I would hold a SEC school or coach accountable for. Under the topic "Transfer List" I posted some analyses that illustrate how other conference schools operate and where I also made comparisons to SEC schools,

This is and will be a continuing opportunity for dialogue for all of us with differing and perhaps strong opinions. Feel free to comment if you wish. IE is a great forum for just that.

I have stated several times that I appreciate the information you provide on this subject. I do think, either intentional or not - you don't provide all the details concerning players and why they transfer, leave, become medically disqualified, etc. Whether intentional or not, if you want to add to IE's "intelligent and constructive" goal, it should start with communicating all the facts - not merely the facts that support your conclusions and/or opinions. Most of those facts are easily obtainable and generally pretty common knowledge.

 

[Legacy]

South Carolina Soaps - Version 2015

South Carolina Soaps - Version 2015

Academic casualties and transfers mark South Carolina's drive to eighty-five each year, followed by walkons being awarded scholarships. Despite signing thirty recruits for '15, Spurrier has seen two recruits not qualify, seven transfer (since 1/1), one to a medical scholarship and two "left team". Spurrier handed out scholarships to seven walkons in '14 and to six this year to reach eighty-five.

With sanctions lifted for '15, SC had an additional three scholies to fill.

Despite signing ninety-seven in four years and one hundred and twenty-nine in five years, SC is always coming up short. (Only eighty-five of the ninety-seven signed in the last four years end up enrolling.)

 

[Redbar]

Maybe the ol ball coach outta start "shopping down a different aisle."

 

[Legacy]

Kentucky Football Scholarship Count - Attrition impacts

Kentucky Football Scholarship Count - Attrition impacts

Without a scholarship chart to rely upon, I started with one Kentucky blog site in April whose best calculation was eighty-five scholarships at that time. Then I reviewed the fall roster, scholarship classes, recent news, other sites and player searches.

Current Scholarship Count
Kentucky's scholarship total was stabilizing - until August. Then, one player (Marcelys Jones from Ohio State) - who had just transferred in - was dismissed. Five scholarship players left the team prior to fall camp. No other reasons have been given. Finally, two of the class of 2016 did not qualify. One more from the '16 class "still has work left to do" (I count him for now). That's attrition. Perhaps they were seeking transfers, since none were high up on depth charts. Perhaps their academic work did not qualify them for the fall, since they did not leave after spring ball.

That left Kentucky with seventy-seven scholarship players. Stoops gave two walkons scholarships recently. Seventy-nine.

Other considerations
Stoops does not offer scholarships to special teams players, who are invited as walkons. I can't find that any walkons given scholarship in 2014, though they may not have publicized it. The special teamers (K,P,LS) have to still be considered walkons.

Stoops has accepted nine transfers into his program, since he was hired on Nov 27, 2012,. Five remain on the 2015 fall roster.

Stoops was hired on Nov 27, 2012. Fourteen signees from the Class of 2013 committed after his hiring. Throughout 2013, Kentucky saw a high number of transfers, players leaving and a few dismissals. Fourteen of the original twenty-six signees from 2012 left for some reason or another. Only eleven from '12 are left on the 2015 fall roster.

Class of 2016
With seventeen graduating Seniors plus those six scholarships from this year, Kentucky may well take a class of twenty-five to reach eighty-five. A full class of twenty-five would total ninety-seven signees over the four Classes from '13-'16. Churn has some impact with five enrollees in Classes '12 and '13 who came from Junior College having graduated.

Kentucky - like South Carolina - continue to struggle to get to eighty-five in spite of high total signee numbers.

Currently, Kentucky has twenty-two verbal commits.

 

[Legacy]

Scholarship offer pulled by Tennessee

Scholarship offer pulled by Tennessee

Recruiting process starting over for Leeds' Tadarryl Marshall after Tennessee pulls offer | AL.com

Moments after winning a Class 4A state championship with Leeds, athlete Tadarryl Marshall was all Vol, getting ready to help Tennessee recruit and sign with the school he committed to next February.

But that changed on Sunday, when he confirmed that Tennessee had pulled its scholarship offer.

Marshall was an electric athlete for Leeds, starring at quarterback but also playing receiver, safety and returning kicks. The three-star athlete committed to Tennessee in April.

Marshall said that Tennessee did not give him a reason why they pulled his offer, and he was unsure where he'd turn next. He said in his tweet that "a business decision has been made." Marshall said he was academically qualified and has a 3.2 GPA. Marshall also said he hasn't talked to Tennessee in weeks.

Tennessee has sixteen verbal commits with an expected class of 20-22. Tennessee's Senior class is sixteen.

Last year, two week before Signing Day, Butch Jones pulled a scholarship from a four star DE, Marques Ford, also due to an expected numbers crunch and higher-rated interested prospects. Jones announced his player transfers in December and January so that his incoming class would not put him over eighty-five.

The Class of 2015 had twenty-seven signees and one blueshirt. The Class of 2014 had thirty-two signees, which was down to twenty-four players for 2015.

 

[Legacy]

Whether this is oversigning in the tradition sense or

Whether this is oversigning in the tradition sense or

over-recruiting, and/or roster management, Michigan under Harbaugh is managing their verbal commitments the way Urban Meyer and Butch Jones have (are) doing.

This year, Michigan carried eighty-two scholarship players. Thirteen have run out of eligibility - sixteen scholarships to offer. Fifteen more players have eligibility remaining, including seven starters. If he only offers the starters fifth years, Harbaugh has twenty-five scholarships for the Class of '16. Normal attrition may give a few more scholarships.

After five recruits have decommited, Harbaugh's class is at sixteen with an expected '16 class of twenty-seven. Anything over twenty-eight is considered oversigning by the Big Ten. One of the decommitted recruits was offered an academic scholarship due to injuries in his senior year, though he is expected to make a full recovery. Speculation is that other verbals may be offered a grayshirt and two may have grade issues that need to be resolved for admission.

Four of those sixteen current pledges have taken official visits elsewhere, probably to their fallback schools. All are rated three stars. Most are early verbals to Michigan. Six of Michigan's current verbal commitments have a mainly mid-major offer list.

So, expect more fluctuation in Michigan's commitment list as well as changing speculation on how many fifth years Michigan may offer. If it comes down to pulling scholarships at the last minute, grayshirting some, or med scholarships that may not apply, oversigning may be an issue. Or like Meyer the class may fall at eighty-five just before fall camp.