Oversigning Recruits

[NDinL.A.]

I just explained in detail the first response from an Irish poster on this board to the question I posed about the three players. And to the ACT scores, I do know what some Irish players ACT scores were. And they are far from what most on this board would like to believe. But it is not relevent to the conversation at hand. I did not state ND football team's ACT scores were in the 50 percentile range. Nor did I state it as fact. The only reason it was used to show that one can say what they want - with no basis in fact - and put it out there as fact. All I asked was a simple question and the response I gave in my answer in regards to the three players has no merit on whether Bama oversigns and cuts players to make room.

Yeah, I got all of that. You missed my point, but whatever.

Bottom line, you guys grossly oversign, and the fact that you are trying to defend it in ANY way is pathetic.

 

[T Town Tommy]

If you're suggesting that they weren't cut, then the burden of proof is on YOU to supply the reason why the scholarship was not renewed. This is common sense dude...

I honestly give zero craps about "oversigning"... in all other college sports, there is TONS of of scholarship/financial aid juggling and kids get cut routinely to open up a roster spot for getting hurt or under-performing or whatever.

I would really like for certain SEC schools just to be honest with everyone and say "Yup, obviously we oversign to account for attrition. We don't break any rules. Deal with it." What's insulting is to hear people act like projected returning players + signed LOIs = 85, when the eyeball test clearly shows that it is over that number.

FWIW, I've always though Nick Saban acknowledged that he oversigned. I've heard him say numerous times that he only promises kids scholarships for 1 year and nothing more and they have to work to keep it. I actually respected that he was up front... reading these posts where people try to act like Alabama's greater than average attrition, players being offered medicals who go on to play elsewhere, "scholarship not renewed", and just 2nd grade level addition don't clearly show that Alabama oversigns is... sad.

Yeah, I think sad is the best adjective. Be honest with yourselves.

And can you name the players who were medically cut and went to play elsewhere? Before we start... I can. And can you tell me the circumstances surrounding their being "cut" and then going to another school and playing? I can. Can you tell me how many doctors told them not to play anymore and they still chose to? I can. Can you tell me how many schools most of those players had to try and clear medically only to be denied based on their medical condition? I can.

And, for the record, all were offered to keep their scholarship under medical conditions so they weren't actually "cut." I don't mind having the conversation, but all who participate in the conversation need to lay their bias aside. And on this forum... that ain't happenin'.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Yeah, I got all of that. You missed my point, but whatever.

Bottom line, you guys grossly oversign, and the fact that you are trying to defend it in ANY way is pathetic.

And the fact that you offer no proof to your accussation is simply worse. If you got it put it out there. If not, then your bias is simply that and nothing more.

 

[phork]

Its pretty bad when your own fans are even questioning it.

2014 Roster Lookahead: The Number Crunch - Roll 'Bama Roll

Also regardless of the ACT score, unless it doesn't meet NCAA standards, whats the point?

Tread lightly son, you are headed into Troll ban hammer status.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Its pretty bad when your own fans are even questioning it.

2014 Roster Lookahead: The Number Crunch - Roll 'Bama Roll

Also regardless of the ACT score, unless it doesn't meet NCAA standards, whats the point?

Tread lightly son, you are headed into Troll ban hammer status.

When Bama "cuts" them then post it out here. If I am not "banned" by then, I will be glad to comment.

 

[Irishman77]

Its pretty bad when your own fans are even questioning it.

2014 Roster Lookahead: The Number Crunch - Roll 'Bama Roll

Also regardless of the ACT score, unless it doesn't meet NCAA standards, whats the point?

Tread lightly son, you are headed into Troll ban hammer status.

So they are just telling 8 kids you no longer have a scholarship? I wonder what espn would do if we told one kid that.

 

[IrishLax]

And can you name the players who were medically cut and went to play elsewhere? Before we start... I can. And can you tell me the circumstances surrounding their being "cut" and then going to another school and playing? I can. Can you tell me how many doctors told them not to play anymore and they still chose to? I can. Can you tell me how many schools most of those players had to try and clear medically only to be denied based on their medical condition? I can.

And, for the record, all were offered to keep their scholarship under medical conditions so they weren't actually "cut." I don't mind having the conversation, but all who participate in the conversation need to lay their bias aside. And on this forum... that ain't happenin'.

What, you want to quibble over the definition of "cut"? It means not on the roster, regardless of circumstance. Being told you can keep an academic scholarship is irrelevant.

And yes, I know all of the situations. I've read all the articles and all of the "other side of the story." Like I said, it's irrelevant.

No, I do not know all of the "scholarship not renewed"... yet you refuse to provide detail on those cases even though repeatedly asked. And, stating the obvious here, but when someone "transfers" in college sports quite often it's them being forced out. That story is never in the press release, but people know. Like when Davonte Neal "transferred."

You're being intellectually dishonest pretending that all of the attrition magically works out every year such that Alabama can sign what they do with the roster they have, and then lose exactly the right number of people to get to 85 right before fall camp, without direct influence on that attrition by the coaches.

There is no one on this planet that believes Alabama doesn't oversign except fans of the school who choose to be willfully ignorant. I don't know why it is so hard to be honest about it. Again, I have no problem with the practice of oversigning. All I have a problem with is ignorance and stupidity... and this "defense" being presented has it in spades.

 

[IrishLax]

2014 Roster Lookahead: The Number Crunch - Roll 'Bama Roll

Thanks phork. And that's with two transfers already, and five people who declared early. Which means Bama was at one point recruiting for FIFTEEN PEOPLE OVER THEIR AVAILABLE SCHOLARSHIPS.

But right, they don't oversign.

The entire thing here is not why or how Alabama is going to get rid of those 8 guys (almost assuredly a couple transfers, a couple medicals... and problem solved)... it's that right now, they signed substantially more people to LOIs than they have scholarships available. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF OVERSIGNING.

No one will debate that they will find a way to get under 85 by the start of the season... the logical fallacy for T Town Tommy is that apparently as long as these 8 guys transfer, medical, or otherwise leave the roster under whatever guise is presented that it somehow makes it retroactively not oversigning. That is beyond illogical.

 

[NCND]

So they are just telling 8 kids you no longer have a scholarship? I wonder what espn would do if we told one kid that.

Yep, it's really strange that story NEVER gets told. Btw, whatever happen to those players in the SEC over the summer that Yahoo had proof that cheated? F'n shame.

 

[T Town Tommy]

What, you want to quibble over the definition of "cut"? It means not on the roster, regardless of circumstance. Being told you can keep an academic scholarship is irrelevant.

And yes, I know all of the situations. I've read all the articles and all of the "other side of the story." Like I said, it's irrelevant.

No, I do not know all of the "scholarship not renewed"... yet you refuse to provide detail on those cases even though repeatedly asked. And, stating the obvious here, but when someone "transfers" in college sports quite often it's them being forced out. That story is never in the press release, but people know. Like when Davonte Neal "transferred."

You're being intellectually dishonest pretending that all of the attrition magically works out every year such that Alabama can sign what they do with the roster they have, and then lose exactly the right number of people to get to 85 right before fall camp, without direct influence on that attrition by the coaches.

There is no one on this planet that believes Alabama doesn't oversign except fans of the school who choose to be willfully ignorant. I don't know why it is so hard to be honest about it. Again, I have no problem with the practice of oversigning. All I have a problem with is ignorance and stupidity... and this "defense" being presented has it in spades.

I have posted the info in detail on why the three scholarships were not renewed. The inference that a transfer was forced out is a big jump. If a coach tells them they will not likely see any significant playing time in the future, then they usually decide to leave. And several have chosen to transfer. I know first hand Saban tells recruits that he will not offer playing time. I also know first hand that Bama is like almost every other school in America when it comes to athletic scholarships... they are one year commitments. The school retains the right not to renew. Is it fair to the student? Probably not. But it is not a Bama rule... it is an NCAA rule. And I have been on record on this forum in stating I favor four year scholarships, coaches staying through their current contract, and players committing to stay for four years.... EVEN the projected first rounders.

 

[IrishLax]

So they are just telling 8 kids you no longer have a scholarship? I wonder what espn would do if we told one kid that.

ESPN will never, ever report anything that tarnishes the brand of the SEC. They have a HUGE financial investment in the SEC succeeding as things stand right now.

And this article tells you all you need to know about the... umm... "symbiotic" relationship between the conference and the network: SEC asks ESPN for help with college basketball attendance | AL.com

 

[T Town Tommy]

ESPN will never, ever report anything that tarnishes the brand of the SEC. They have a HUGE financial investment in the SEC succeeding as things stand right now.

And this article tells you all you need to know about the... umm... "symbiotic" relationship between the conference and the network: SEC asks ESPN for help with college basketball attendance | AL.com

Can the same be said about ND and their NBC contract?

 

[IrishLax]

I have posted the info in detail on why the three scholarships were not renewed. The inference that a transfer was forced out is a big jump. If a coach tells them they will not likely see any significant playing time in the future, then they usually decide to leave. And several have chosen to transfer. I know first hand Saban tells recruits that he will not offer playing time. I also know first hand that Bama is like almost every other school in America when it comes to athletic scholarships... they are one year commitments. The school retains the right not to renew. Is it fair to the student? Probably not. But it is not a Bama rule... it is an NCAA rule. And I have been on record on this forum in stating I favor four year scholarships, coaches staying through their current contract, and players committing to stay for four years.... EVEN the projected first rounders.

The thing is, I literally agree with everything you said here. I have no problem with oversigning. I have no problem with kids being forced out. I have no problem with scholarships being pulled from those that underperform. It basically happens at every school in every sport. It's the nature of the game.

I just want you to be honest that the class you signed this year when added to players currently on the roster (and expected to participate in spring ball) goes above 85. That is the definition of oversigning... signing more kids to LOIs than you have scholarships available to account for pre-season attrition.

 

[IrishLax]

Can the same be said about ND and their NBC contract?

Yup. NBC has a big-but-not-nearly-as-big financial interest in ND succeeding. They also have nowhere near the leverage of ESPN.

 

[irishfanjho15]

Its pretty bad when your own fans are even questioning it.

2014 Roster Lookahead: The Number Crunch - Roll 'Bama Roll

Also regardless of the ACT score, unless it doesn't meet NCAA standards, whats the point?

Tread lightly son, you are headed into Troll ban hammer status.

The comments by Bama fans on that article are disgusting and disgraceful in relation to student-athletes. They could give a shit less about the player's education, their importance to the team, and their overall well being. Bama is not a team, its a labor organization.

 

[T Town Tommy]

The thing is, I literally agree with everything you said here. I have no problem with oversigning. I have no problem with kids being forced out. I have no problem with scholarships being pulled from those that underperform. It basically happens at every school in every sport. It's the nature of the game.

I just want you to be honest that the class you signed this year when added to players currently on the roster (and expected to participate in spring ball) goes above 85. That is the definition of oversigning... signing more kids to LOIs than you have scholarships available to account for pre-season attrition.

Thanks for you honesty. It will be interesting to see what happens moving forward with the class. I haven't really looked at the numbers but Saban was pretty set on 26 as that number. If he does something that is unethical when it comes to a player, I will know fairly quickly. But there will be transfers no doubt. I already know of a few that will fall in that category... and it revolves around seeing any significant playing time moving forward.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Yup. NBC has a big-but-not-nearly-as-big financial interest in ND succeeding. They also have nowhere near the leverage of ESPN.

I would agree with that. And with the start of the SEC network, hopefully some of the SEC homerism on ESPN will shift to there. Hard to believe for some out here, but I do get tired of all the BS with ESPN when it comes to the SEC. Until the Texas A&Ms and Ole Miss's of the conference win something, I don't really want to hear how effing great they are.

 

[phork]

Thanks for you honesty. It will be interesting to see what happens moving forward with the class. I haven't really looked at the numbers but Saban was pretty set on 26 as that number. If he does something that is unethical when it comes to a player, I will know fairly quickly. But there will be transfers no doubt. I already know of a few that will fall in that category... and it revolves around seeing any significant playing time moving forward.

Wait, what? You haven't looked at the numbers? Try that link I posted. It spells out your numbers pretty well.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I have no problem admitting Bama oversigns. It's not uncommon and is completely within the NCAA rules. My problem with it, as far as the discussions about in here, are the gross distortions and inaccurate blanket statements about why & how, and some of the ND fans essentially saying that since ND has chosen not to oversign, everyone else should refuse to do so, despite it being perfectly legal by NCAA standards.

You may not like the NCAA rules on oversigning, scholarships only being for one year, not renewing scholarships in order to make room on the roster, etc., but as long as a school is staying within those rules, then so what? As Phork said above about ACT scores and qualifying, "unless it doesn't meet NCAA standards, whats the point?"

 

[T Town Tommy]

Wait, what? You haven't looked at the numbers? Try that link I posted. It spells out your numbers pretty well.

And I said if and when Saban does something unethical when dealing with his current roster, then post it. I will be glad to comment then. Just make sure you know the facts when putting it out there. Blanket statements can be made about every program. Fair enough?

 

[Bishop2b5]

As far as numbers go, I believe we had 16 players who used up their eligibility or declared for the draft. We will bring in 25 new players (and a 26th who will gray shirt, but won't join the program until next year and thus will count towards next year's class). 25-16=9 spots to free up by August to get down to 85. We already know Kamara is transferring. He got in Saban's doghouse because of attitude and is buried behind 5 or 6 better running backs on the depth chart. In any given year, most schools will lose 2 or 3 players between Feb & Aug due to injuries, academics, behavior, etc. I expect 1 or 2 more to transfer seeking playing time somewhere else. There are a few 5th year seniors who will probably choose to not come back or who will simply not be invited back.

 

[dad4aa]

The entire thing here is not why or how Alabama is going to get rid of those 8 guys (almost assuredly a couple transfers, a couple medicals... and problem solved)... it's that right now, they signed substantially more people to LOIs than they have scholarships available. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF OVERSIGNING.

I agree 100% that this is oversigning...which is what the original debate was all about but it seems to have trended toward does Saban force people out. I think T Town may be right here. I don't think Saban has to force people out. When student-athletes choose Notre Dame, it is for the degree as well as football. No disrespect intended toward Alabama but I do not believe any of the athletes that choose them are doing it for the degree...they are doing it to play football. If BK told a player they are going to be limited to special teams or nothing, most of them will stay so they can get the ND degree. If Saban tells a player he is going to be limited to special teams at most, they are looking around to see who will take them. While Saban can decide which player hears this message, I can't really say that player is being forced out. jmho

 

[connor_in]

Quick question...where do Alabama's transfers end up? Other major schools...JUCO...community college...Wal-Mart?

 

[IrishLax]

I agree 100% that this is oversigning...which is what the original debate was all about but it seems to have trended toward does Saban force people out. I think T Town may be right here. I don't think Saban has to force people out. When student-athletes choose Notre Dame, it is for the degree as well as football. No disrespect intended toward Alabama but I do not believe any of the athletes that choose them are doing it for the degree...they are doing it to play football. If BK told a player they are going to be limited to special teams or nothing, most of them will stay so they can get the ND degree. If Saban tells a player he is going to be limited to special teams at most, they are looking around to see who will take them. While Saban can decide which player hears this message, I can't really say that player is being forced out. jmho

I agree with basically everything you're saying. It all really depends on what you consider "forcing out." Simply put, in every sport there are a lot of "honest conversations" that coaches have with players where they simply say "you're never going to play." The goal is almost always to force the player out. Most times, it happens when a new coach takes over at a program. Think of Hoke with that kid Posada, Weis with some crappy QB he inherited at Kansas, etc. If you aren't oversigning, then there is no upside to having this conversation as it just puts you down a body you could use in a rash of injuries.

If you are smartly oversigning like Alabama (or at a lacrosse program like Syracuse, or probably literally 100s of programs in a myriad of different sports around the country where you have tough roster or scholarship caps), the way the conversation happens is that you get through spring and you take stock of:
1. Who is healthy, who is hurt, and what the depth chart looks like.
2. Who all qualified from your signing class and will be enrolling.

Then you go to the couple of players at the bottom of the depth chart at their respective positions and you have as many honest conversations as you need to have. You explain that they're not going to play unless there is an apocalypse of injuries, and if they want to play/go pro they're best off transferring, and that you will help them look for a good landing spot if that's the direction you want to go.

99% of the time that is all that is needed... VERY rarely does push come to shove. But we've seen it a couple times, most notably with "grey shirts" (I remember specifically some cases with LSU). When someone just gets straight up cut, it's usually at least partially a disciplinary or academic factor attached. The dirtiest I've seen is coaches looking for any excuse to drop someone and waiting for them to skip a class or show up a minute late to a meeting and then bam... dropped fora "violation of team rules."

Rest assured, a large portion of "transfers" at every program are basically kids that are run off for one reason or another. Does that count as being forced out? I don't know, and I also don't really care. It's not against the rules, happens all over the place, and I don't even think it's necessarily unethical unless the kid was promised he'd have a scholarship for 4 years, etc.

Quick question...where do Alabama's transfers end up? Other major schools...JUCO...community college...Wal-Mart?

Usually a JUCO to play immediately, and then either to another major school or to the pros.

 

[phork]

I have no problem admitting Bama oversigns. It's not uncommon and is completely within the NCAA rules. My problem with it, as far as the discussions about in here, are the gross distortions and inaccurate blanket statements about why & how, and some of the ND fans essentially saying that since ND has chosen not to oversign, everyone else should refuse to do so, despite it being perfectly legal by NCAA standards.

You may not like the NCAA rules on oversigning, scholarships only being for one year, not renewing scholarships in order to make room on the roster, etc., but as long as a school is staying within those rules, then so what? As Phork said above about ACT scores and qualifying, "unless it doesn't meet NCAA standards, whats the point?"

Except that scoring a low ACT is not morally reprehensible. Just because its not a written rule doesn't mean it should be done.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Except that scoring a low ACT is not morally reprehensible. Just because its not a written rule doesn't mean it should be done.

But that's your opinion and how you think rules should be applied.

My whole exception to most of the posts on here about the subject is the fact that many feel Saban is forcing players out. That is not the case. Does Bama oversign? Yes. Does Notre Dame undersign? Yes. Is either violating an NCAA rule? No. Is either one any better than the other? Not in the eyes of the NCAA.

If Saban forces a player out due to not having space then I have issues with that. If he tells the player they won't be seeing the field very much and if they want to play more they may need to look at transferring, then I don't have a problem with that either. Dad4aa's post most describes the current state at Bama in regards to this.

Instead of Irish fans being upset with teams that oversign, they should be asking their current staff why they continue to undersign. Not going into the season with a full 85 on scholarship makes no sense to me.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I agree with basically everything you're saying. It all really depends on what you consider "forcing out." Simply put, in every sport there are a lot of "honest conversations" that coaches have with players where they simply say "you're never going to play." The goal is almost always to force the player out. Most times, it happens when a new coach takes over at a program. Think of Hoke with that kid Posada, Weis with some crappy QB he inherited at Kansas, etc. If you aren't oversigning, then there is no upside to having this conversation as it just puts you down a body you could use in a rash of injuries.

If you are smartly oversigning like Alabama (or at a lacrosse program like Syracuse, or probably literally 100s of programs in a myriad of different sports around the country where you have tough roster or scholarship caps), the way the conversation happens is that you get through spring and you take stock of:
1. Who is healthy, who is hurt, and what the depth chart looks like.
2. Who all qualified from your signing class and will be enrolling.

Then you go to the couple of players at the bottom of the depth chart at their respective positions and you have as many honest conversations as you need to have. You explain that they're not going to play unless there is an apocalypse of injuries, and if they want to play/go pro they're best off transferring, and that you will help them look for a good landing spot if that's the direction you want to go.

99% of the time that is all that is needed... VERY rarely does push come to shove. But we've seen it a couple times, most notably with "grey shirts" (I remember specifically some cases with LSU). When someone just gets straight up cut, it's usually at least partially a disciplinary or academic factor attached. The dirtiest I've seen is coaches looking for any excuse to drop someone and waiting for them to skip a class or show up a minute late to a meeting and then bam... dropped fora "violation of team rules."

Rest assured, a large portion of "transfers" at every program are basically kids that are run off for one reason or another. Does that count as being forced out? I don't know, and I also don't really care. It's not against the rules, happens all over the place, and I don't even think it's necessarily unethical unless the kid was promised he'd have a scholarship for 4 years, etc.



Usually a JUCO to play immediately, and then either to another major school or to the pros.

This. You get it. I know of a few cases also where a player has been with the program a few years and gone as far as he's going to go and isn't going to see any significant playing time. He may just decide he doesn't want to keep playing as a practice squad member or he may have some injuries and not want to keep aggravating them or risk having lifelong issues with them. It's common for the staff to offer him an academic or medical hardship scholarship so he can finish his education.

I'll disagree somewhat with you on our transfers heading to JUCO. Most of the time the JUCO route is taken by incoming freshmen who don't qualify academically, or less often, underclassmen who get in trouble and are looking for a place to make a fresh start. Most of our transfers will end up at smaller D1 schools where they have a shot at significant playing time.

 

[vmgsf]

Are these two Alabama lawyers or possibly the one or two smart Alabama law students posting here getting paid by the word and the post by the Saban machine. I do not believe any of your bullshit. So. Please be CONCISE when spewing your bullshit and limit your posts to no more than 500 a day. "Brevity is not the soul of wit" when you are being paid by the word and the post. The transcendent two - over 2,000 posts in 14 months!!

 

[ThePiombino]

Are these two Alabama lawyers or possibly the one or two smart Alabama law students posting here getting paid by the word and the post by the Saban machine. I do not believe any of your bullshit. So. Please be CONCISE when spewing your bullshit and limit your posts to no more than 500 a day. "Brevity is not the soul of wit" when you are being paid by the word and the post. The transcendent two - over 2,000 posts in 14 months!!

Dafuq just happened?

 

[chubler]

Personally I've come around to think oversigning isn't necessarily good or bad, it just is.

Notre Dame makes an educational commitment to each player we sign that trumps football concerns. We knowingly negatively impact our ability to compete on the field because our priority lies with that student's educational experience, and we don't want it interrupted for athletic reasons unless that student seeks a transfer out themselves. We prefer to keep our students here, and that's our choice.

Alabama, the SEC, and most all of college football do oversign. They make a commitment to the player to ensure a free education at Alabama regardless of how they pan out on the field. Their institutional culture/values/whatever seems to prioritize football more highly than ours does, so they do oversign. In all likelihood, there is significant pressure applied on occasion for a player to transfer. If the player doesn't, maybe they put them on a medical scholarship or something, but I've only heard of one or two instances ever, anywhere, where a scholarship was simply pulled. The commitment made by the school is being met.

TL;DR- Notre Dame freely chooses to go above and beyond because we want to make sure our players to stay and get their degree from Notre Dame. Alabama still wants to make sure their players get a degree, but they're less concerned that it be at Alabama. I think it's clear that ND's approach invests more into each player as a person, but I don't think we can be calling people out for failing to match our voluntary extra effort.

If you want to knock the machine Saban calls "the process" as a whole, or FSU or almost any other major D1 program, I think that's a discussion we can have. There's a fair argument to be made that the education some schools promise and pay for is sacrificed to multimillionaire coaches' career goals. Oversigning might be a part of that (I think it is). But in a vacuum, no, I can't call oversigning morally wrong in and of itself.