Oversigning Recruits

[SoInIrishFan]

elliot porter signed with kentucky a few weeks ago...

and les miles played that situation horribly (no surprise, les is an idiot) however, all these kids know (or should know) what they are getting into when they sign with a class of 28 kids.

les wanted porter to grey shirt for a semester and then he would get his scholarship in the spring. he decided not to do, which is fine, i dont blame him.

les could have told his entire 2010 class back in february that this situation was a possibility due to the amount of people signed, but he waited til august, that is where i find the issue...

The university should NOT be allowed to sign kids unless they have room for them. That's the whole point. If they promise the kid a scholly, they should honor that.

I'm not trying to razz you, Rocket. I just hate that schools can do this!

 

[Legacy]

many things in life and in college are one year contracts... a job for instance?

also, my academic scholarship is a one year contract as well, if i dont *make the grade*, i lose my scholarship for the next year...

Except that at Notre Dame and the other schools lowest on the Oversigning ranking a football scholarship is a commitment from the university for four years of education. They don't show you your office and kick you out a couple of months later.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Folks, this is slightly off topic but I believe closely related. I recently had an opportunity to talk with the coaching staff at a top ten university [I'm not going to name them as the talk was a bit confidential, but I'll tell the details to BGIF privately if he thinks it's important to check my story.] Anyway, one of the conversations was about recruiting practices.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------The point of interest was that one of the [very] veteran assistants was remarking about recruiting against certain "legendary" southern recruiters. The individual in question was/is at UNC and goes in the trade by the not-meant-to-flatter nickname of "Black Jesus". Forgive me for not being socially blunt enough to get the coach to tell me the guy's exact name, but my brother [an ex-ballplayer at the University I was visiting] knew the UNC assistant's reputation well---which is why the conversation was so frank. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------The assistant coach told how this rival coach had essentially no regard whatever for NCAA rules about promises and pay-offs to recruits' families. And he oozed hypocrisy. The exact phrase was that "He comes in your house with a Bible in one hand and a sack of money in the other". It was no wonder to them that this guy is tough to recruit against in certain environments. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------The reason why I've included this in this thread is that this is far more egregious than the over-signing thing, though I'm in total agreement on the immorality of both. If college staffs, and whole Universities, happily look the other way on in-your-face violation of all the rules, we have no wonder that a practice like over-signing will get little enthusiasm from institutions who just don't give a damn.

 

[rocket31]

Except that at Notre Dame and the other schools lowest on the Oversigning ranking a football scholarship is a commitment from the university for four years of education..

no its not, it is a one year commitment.

many players from ND have been released from their scholarships over the years...

 

[Legacy]

no its not, it is a one year commitment.

many players from ND have been released from their scholarships over the years...

We all understand that the scholarships are one year and renewed annually. In actuality, ND has, of course, released players due to transfers (with limitations that they not go to an opponent we will be playing) and for disciplinary reasons.

Outside of those, it is my understanding the University commits to a four year education (five in some cases) to players and their families when the player as SIIF puts it "holds up their end of the bargain".

But, perhaps, you are aware of situations that I am not.

 

[Blue N Gold]

The university should NOT be allowed to sign kids unless they have room for them. That's the whole point. If they promise the kid a scholly, they should honor that.

I'm not trying to razz you, Rocket. I just hate that schools can do this!

Then hate on the NCAA. It is perfectly within the rules. Many players in the SEC have to over recruit simply because every year they have multiple players who do not pass clearinghouse or some other reason where they cannot join the team.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Then hate on the NCAA. It is perfectly within the rules. Many players in the SEC have to over recruit simply because every year they have multiple players who do not pass clearinghouse or some other reason where they cannot join the team.

Then don't recruit those guys! Do some homework on them. Make sure they can get through Clearinghouse. Make sure they are high character guys. Yes, some guys make mistakes and you get screwed. But multiple guys, year after year after year? That's not an NCAA problem, that's the school's problem.

 

[Blue N Gold]

The NCAA could easily make a rule or penalty to detract this type of activity. They simply look the other way.

 

[BGIF]

...

many players from ND have been released from their scholarships over the years. ...

They REQUESTED a release, unlike the student athletes discussed in the article. They were NOT kicked out so another could occupy their slot, were they?

A distinction that someone on an academic scholarship should be able to grasp.

And please, don't go down the ResLife/Academics road. At ND, the coaches don't get to decide who violated school rules nor who is academically ineligible.

 

[Legacy]

Possible NCAA Rule Changes

Possible NCAA Rule Changes

The NCAA could easily make a rule or penalty to detract this type of activity. They simply look the other way.

I could see some rule changes that would help.

1. An early signing period - time for the NCAA Clearinghouse to come to a decision on
those players instead of the backlog that makes coaches unsure of who will clear on
National Signing Day.

2. A binding agreement in the LOI a recruit signs that obligates the university for one full
year of a football scholarship.

3. Designated players over 25, who did not count towards the previous year, could be
offered and sign non-binding agreements. They could be released without penalty if a
class fills up. Players could list second and third choices who will agree to a
scholarship if first choice recinds. This would effectively make some schools take
smaller classes to keep room for possible qualifying athletes.

4. Freshman ineligible - with a set amount of exemptions (<5). Time for most players on
a team to devote to academics, bulk up and learn the schemes and playbook. A
by-product might be that schools who skirt the law and the law wins, restricting their
scholarships, would be a bit more careful in the future. The exemptions allow for a
limited influx of talent. NCAA Clearinghouse standards would be for those players who
would be on the fall roster, plenty of time to get those non-playing freshman on team
in the spring up to standards.

5. No team who does not have a graduation rate in excess of 60% can play in the
post-season. Isn't this all about accepting football players with marginal academics?
With freshmen (for the most part) ineligible, these players could go to JC, qualify,
and come in with the next class.

 

[ACamp1900]

sorry rocket and whoever else... if you accept a scholly from a school it is not and never was intended to be, a "Well as long as you crack to depth chart to our liking you're cool, but if we find someone better, then fuck you" situation... that is an absolute perversion... which is what Bama and others have made it...

you sign to a program it is a four year committment on the school's part... Grades? committment? that's something different ENTIRELY... if s player breaks his end then so be it... but no scholly in history had "Must sit number two or higher in the depth chart" in the fine print... what this is, is finding a loop hole so you can play with 25 more players per year than your opponent just in the interest of winnig football games all while possibly destroying these kids lives and or livelihood, and spitting on the "college" part of college football... the fact that anyone would make a case otherwise as if Bama has a right to just cut people the minute someone better comes along is one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard on this site in regards to cfb...

 

[mgriff]

sorry rocket and whoever else... if you accept a scholly from a school it is not and never was intended to be, a "Well as long as you crack to depth chart to our liking you're cool, but if we find someone better, then fuck you" situation... that is an absolute perversion... which is what Bama and others have made it...

you sign to a program it is a four year committment on the school's part... Grades? committment? that's something different ENTIRELY... if s player breaks his end then so be it... but no scholly in history had "Must sit number two or higher in the depth chart" in the fine print... what this is, is finding a loop hole so you can play with 25 more players per year than your opponent just in the interest of winnig football games all while possibly destroying these kids lives and or livelihood, and spitting on the "college" part of college football... the fact that anyone would make a case otherwise as if Bama has a right to just cut people the minute someone better comes along is one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard on this site in regards to cfb...

I agree with your sentiment wholeheartedly, but it's become all about the money now. The only reason they don't pay these kids is because they would lose more money to the athletes and in taxes. The state of collegiate athletics disgusts me. Education has long been lost in this process. It's a microcosm of a major issue affecting our country.

 

[BGIF]

... if you accept a scholly from a school it is not and never was intended to be, a "Well as long as you crack to depth chart to our liking you're cool, but if we find someone better, then fuck you" situation... that is an absolute perversion... which is what Bama and others have made it...

you sign to a program it is a four year committment on the school's part...

Wrong. Regardless of the ethics of financial aid to play sports on a one year renewal basis that's how the NCAA MEMBERS chose to do it.

Here's are the applicable words from the National Letter of Intent Website FAQs

National Letter of Intent

Q. Do I sign a National Letter of Intent every year?

A. No. Although under NCAA rules you must be notified annually regarding whether your athletics aid has been renewed, you only sign an NLI when you first enroll in a four-year institution or if you are a four-two-four (4-2-4) transfer student.

Q. By signing a National Letter of Intent am I guaranteed that I will play on a team?

No. Signing a National Letter of Intent does not guarantee you playing time or a spot on the team. Rather, by signing a National Letter of Intent, the institution with which you signed agrees to provide you athletics financial aid for the academic year.

Q. What is "Grayshirting?"

“Grayshirting” is a term used in the recruiting process to describe situations in which a student-athlete delays initial enrollment in a collegiate institution to the winter or spring term after the traditional academic year begins. Students who “grayshirt” often use the fall to take classes part time or choose not to enroll in college at all. “Grayshirting” is not a formal designation by the NCAA or the National Letter of Intent program. If you are interested in “grayshirting” and signing a National Letter of Intent, it is important to review the applicable NLI provisions and to be aware of the informal nature of this commitment

There are other situations addressed in the FAQs. I added "Grayshirting" specifically because the NCAA notes it is not formal designation but they address it - "allowing" the practice. They could say, "Student-athletes must be enrolled by the Fall semester following graduation". They don't. The rules are voted on by the member institutions of the NCAA. The actual voters, I believe, are the University Presidents not the coaches. If enough Presidents want it changed, the practice will be changed.

 

[ACamp1900]

No. Not wrong. and absolutely nothing you added has changed that... NOTHING anyone from this "bama has every right" camp that you seem to now belong to, has addressed the fact that these schools are cutting someone lose from the school's commitment for "undisclosed reasons" when everyone on this planet knows the kid in question did nothing wrong other than get beat on the depth chart... and that when a kid signs a scholly as long as he lives up to his commitment he should and always freaking has until now had a renewal waiting for him... it's a four year commitment... I personally find it shameful that ND fans would defend this.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Both of you guys are correct in your different ways of addressing the topic. BGIF is trying to be helpful by addressing the "legal" position as had been set forth by the NCAA rules. In that sense, the schools have a legal "right" to do immoral things to an individual human being. BGIF specifically stated that his information was not a comment on the Ethics of these institutional behaviors. You ACamp are correct on the "moral" issue of treating people as cannon-fodder for personal or financial and institutional gains. We are a country which is mired in hundreds of laws which allow people to be disregarded for gains by large institutions where such disregard does not meet muster on any system of morality. Why don't we try harder to understand what the "other guy" is actually saying on this forum before blasting out at him? I assume that both of you are fine moral fellows who know right from wrong. Our country has brought the word "right" into a profound confusion, where some people will go about using it habitually as a legal term [which it has largely become, sadly] and some people habitually use it in its older right-vs-wrong moral sense. The only thing that can keep us communicating well together in this sort of world is to listen to the "other guy" very closely with a sense of brotherhood and benefit of the doubt that each of us probably has a reason for what we say. End of rant.

 

[TerryTate]

This may have larger ramifications:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/26/sports/ncaafootball/26ncaa.html?_r=1&ref=ncaafootball

 

[IrishLax]

Great find TT. I personally think the scholarship cap is ridiculous. As is Title IX. The NCAA becomes more antiquated every year.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Terry: very interesting. When the courts get involved, many organizations [especially those associated with universities] tend to bail. If this guy has a good legal case, it sounds to me like he would not only win it, but set legal precedent for any athlete who retains ACADEMIC eligibility to be retained in some way on University scholarship.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ THAT however would not necessarily mean that such shuffling of monies would create a situation wherein the non-player would count against the 85 scholarship limit for playing athletes. Something else would have to go on to affect that. Unless the aggrieved player could successfully contest the health [or whatever it was] criterion which allowed the coaches to turn him into "just" another student, I can't see how this would affect practices like we've read about in the SEC. In fact, by creating a legal norm for shuttling players off football scholarship and onto academic scholarship, it could even encourage staffs to do this, as an expected risk in running a football team. [i.e., now you don't have to explain yourself as much, as "everybody knows" when someone can't play we put him off the team, give him an academic replacement scholarship, and open up a slot]. No crystal ball here. But it will interesting to see just what the point of law is, and how it shakes out.

 

[Irish Man3]

Oversigning Recruits

There is an awesome Outside the Lines episode on right now on ESPN. It shows what oversigning recruits does to players that are let go. On average the SEC signs 108 players for their 85 man roster whereas the Big10 signs on average of 86. The SEC makes me sick and the coaches and athletic depts show no remorse for an one individual. Randy Shannon, Les Miles, Houston Nut, and Nick Saban all refused to interview for this show.

If any of you get a chance to go back and watch this episode, its well worth it.

 

[Rocket's Rocket Fan]

I saw this too. It was a really interesting show to watch. We all knew it was going on, but maybe this will start a ball moving in the right direction to stop it. It really makes you feel bad for the kids that got cut loose. I hope some of our recruits (Stephon) saw that.

 

[Irish Man3]

I also think it's ridiculous that the Big10 has laid down some very strict rules for oversigning recruits and the SEC has done nothing. How is that in any way ok? Why has the NCAA not stepped in cleaned this up?

One of the most interesting interviews in this show was with the young man that had been a part of Miami's football team for four years and was let go to make room for the one and only.... Seantrel Henderson. They forced a student athlete out of his scholarship that had been there for four years for a transfer that had given the Hurricanes nothing.

 

[Irish Insanity]

I didn't get a chance to see the show, but wish i would have. Most schools have no regaurd for these recruits past them perfoming well for their team. Another one of the many reasons i'm happy to be a ND fan. We care about our student atheletes. Because they are STUDENT atheletes!

 

[phillyirish]

Yeah, and that's why the SEC is so dominate (yet maybe overrated). It is a lot easier to create quality depth and find diamonds in the rough when you have a talent pool of 30+ guys to choose from on your roster over most teams in the country. They can also just throw away overrated/over hyped prospects that don't pan out.

 

[NDinMich]

Here's a link to ESPN's OTL page and the video of the oversigning piece they did.

OTL: Over The Limit - ESPN Video - ESPN

 

[jonesman]

This is one of the major things wrong with college football and yet the NCAA turns it head because the SEC means $$$$$$$$$ and lots of it.

 

[IrishLax]

Just watched the piece. Wow. Someone needs to go post that on every SEC recruit's Facebook wall. This info needs to get out to the parents.

 

[TexasNDFan]

Actually posted the link to this video on the SEC's facebook page.

 

[irishandy]

Wow, I feel sorry for those kids. Going through the recruiting process they get a relationship with their coaches and this happens.

 

[kmoose]

The thing is... I think most fans would be ok with it, as long as it was done openly and honestly. Every summer, the coach gathers the team and tells them, "Well boys, we have 92 of you here, and only 85 scholarships to hand out. So work your asses off, to make sure you are one of the lucky 85." If the kids were aware of this possibility, when they made their commitment, and the coaches had a deadline for trimming their rosters, then I think most fans would just chalk it up to life being life.

 

[Irish Man3]

The thing is... I think most fans would be ok with it, as long as it was done openly and honestly. Every summer, the coach gathers the team and tells them, "Well boys, we have 92 of you here, and only 85 scholarships to hand out. So work your asses off, to make sure you are one of the lucky 85." If the kids were aware of this possibility, when they made their commitment, and the coaches had a deadline for trimming their rosters, then I think most fans would just chalk it up to life being life.

What??? What makes you think the coaches gathers the team together and let's them know? Miami released two players before Seantrell even stepped on campus and that was before the season started. They don't hold tryouts and release players based on performance. Miami knew nothing about Seantrell in the college ranks because he hadn't played in college. Tryouts are for professional teams not college football. These kids are told and sold on a bunch of bull**** to get them on campus, so they change their whole lives and move and enroll in classes and then are told they wont be on scholarship like they were promised. There is a reason the Big10 has rules against this. They are student athletes.