Orlando attack - terrorism suspected

woolybug25

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I would not oppose a mental health evaluation. My only question is how do we handle those who properly treat their mental health deficiency? Do we assume the treatment will continue and give them a pass or are they immediately excluded once diagnosed.

That's a good question. I think it would be too difficult to follow up on the evaluations and I think we're toeing the line when we talk about taking firearms someone legally purchased. But it's better than nothing. It gives us more protection from someone under mental duress making an immediate purchase. I also think they should have to pass it every time they want to purchase firearms that require it (handguns, semi auto, etc). But there is only so much we can do and some people in our country don't understand that.
 

wizards8507

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But there is only so much we can do and some people in our country don't understand that.
That's why I think the "slippery slope" argument applies here. We know we'll never prevent everything. So even if we pass what some call "common sense gun reforms," and then the next bad thing happens, they'll want more reforms, which won't prevent everything, and then the next bad thing happens, then they'll want more reforms, and on and on.
 

DomerInHappyValley

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Wooly, to answer your question more directly, I'd be fine with that as long as there was no cost to the purchaser. For example, for a pistol permit in Connecticut:

$70 local authority fee
$17 federal fingerprint / background fee
$50 state fingerprint / background fee
$70 state pistol permit fee
$60 Phase I pistol safety course
$120 Phase II pistol safety course

That's ~$400 in order to practice my constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms before I even think about actually purchasing a gun. People want to talk about corruption at the NRA, guess who's the exclusive provider of the pistol safety courses? Sure, I can afford this, but I shouldn't have to. The Left likes to suggest that requiring folks to spend an hour at the DMV to get a free photo ID is overly burdensome and keeps the poor from voting. What about the burden on the poor if they want to carry a firearm?

Had CT changed the wording of laws yet?
Intimidation is an automatic disqualifier so MA changed the laws from terroristic threats to intimidation and threatening to commit a crime.
So basically saying your gonna kick someones ass at 18 is a life time ban.
 

GoIrish41

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You mean like the same old the founding fathers couldn't imagine the guns we have now argument?
Sure I'll concede that the founding fathers didn't imagine a semi auto rifle.
Are you willing to concede that they couldn't imagine the internet, tv, or radio?
So should we start to curb someones freedom of speech cause loser, loners are self radicalizing using those mediums?
There is a happy medium, but the happy medium will never be reached when the first response is always ban all guns.

Nobody dies from using Facebook, watching the Kardashians or listening to Rush Limbaugh, so your comparrison isn't really very good. People are being killed with far too much frequency by AR-15s (the weapon of choice of mass shooters in the United States). What is this happy medium of which you speak? Even things like expanded background checks and closing the gun show loophole are met with furious opposition from the NRA and gun rights advocates and their dumbass "slippery slope" arguments. Its as if their individual right to own a semi-automatic killing machine is more important than the lives of hundreds of people who are murdered every year at the hands of assholes who got their hands on these dangerous weapons.


Mentally unstable people are already prohibited from owning a fire arm.
But unless they were committed by a court it will never show up on a background check.
As far as the FBI watch list since they run NICS I always assumed that if someone was trying to buy one who was on their list they'd just return a more information needed and delay the purchase.

In Pennsylvania, the law is that no person shall possess a firearm if he or she is "a person who has been adjudicated as incompetent or involuntarily committed to a mental institution." That bar is fairly low.

I have a newphew who was born with mental deficiencies. I just ran into him this weekend at his youngest brother's HS graduation. Not only does he have a sidearm, but he has a licence to open carry it. I've known this kid his whole life, and I love him, but he has absolutely no business carrying a gun. He is extremely easy to convince of anything, and he's impulsive and quick tempered as hell. And, sadly, as with many people in his condition, he was relentlessly teased by ignorant kids his whole life ... and he never really handled it well. This is a recipe for disaster.

These background checks need to include more than just checking someone's criminal record and a rubber stamp. But, the "slippery slopers" go off the rails if anyone suggests that. At one point, polling indicated that 90% of the population wanted these laws expanded and the bought-and-paid-for politicians blocked a vote on a bill to do just that.
 

woolybug25

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That's why I think the "slippery slope" argument applies here. We know we'll never prevent everything. So even if we pass what some call "common sense gun reforms," and then the next bad thing happens, they'll want more reforms, which won't prevent everything, and then the next bad thing happens, then they'll want more reforms, and on and on.

Yeah, but we can't simply ignore common sense changes because we fear people may want more. That is the case with anything. If we took that path with all laws, then we would never have improvements or get anything done. We elect representatives to take or not take action on our behalf. It's their job to do that. They are responsible for not only taking action, but also purposely not taking action as well.

We can't be afraid of making positive change. Just in the same manner as not being afraid to take inaction when appropriate. That's how democracy is supposed to work.
 

woolybug25

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I do think it's clearly a problem when you can buy an AR-15 in 7 minutes.

I bought an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle in Philly in 7 minutes

*I'm taking this article as fact.

They sell AR-15's at hardware stores in MI.

EB8643DB-867B-4AA6-A17D-6F01F1B1E21D_zpsbm1i3zuj.jpg


You know... Get a little fertilizer, some porch flowers, a couple tarps and your AR-15 of course.
 

Monk

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Wooly, to answer your question more directly, I'd be fine with that as long as there was no cost to the purchaser. For example, for a pistol permit in Connecticut:

$70 local authority fee
$17 federal fingerprint / background fee
$50 state fingerprint / background fee
$70 state pistol permit fee
$60 Phase I pistol safety course
$120 Phase II pistol safety course

That's ~$400 in order to practice my constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms before I even think about actually purchasing a gun. People want to talk about corruption at the NRA, guess who's the exclusive provider of the pistol safety courses? Sure, I can afford this, but I shouldn't have to. The Left likes to suggest that requiring folks to spend an hour at the DMV to get a free photo ID is overly burdensome and keeps the poor from voting. What about the burden on the poor if they want to carry a firearm?

That is because MA has strict laws pertaining to pistol permits. In NY it is also expensive, but not quite as expensive as MA. I had to take a pistol course, then apply with 4 references that live in my county for the permit. I then had to call to schedule an appointment to hand in my paperwork. This appointment I received was 15 months from the time I scheduled it. I turned in my paperwork on my appointment date, then my application goes to a judge in that county. They pull my record and do a full background check on me and also check in on my references and their background. This process took another 3 months. Many people do not receive a permit to carry conceal in my county, but because of my description of work and my concerns I was issued one.

Florida on the other hand does not have a strict policy for a pistol permit. I know of a person who went on vacation in Florida so he setup a day to take a pistol permit class. This class consisted of a few hours of classroom training then some range shooting. By the end of the class he received his pistol permit. The Florida pistol permit for non-residents is good in 30 other states.

I also know of a person who wanted a pistol permit for many states so he went online and took a pistol permit course for the state of Utah. He passes the online course and was issued his pistol permit.

I believe the biggest problem is not a more uniform criteria for gun ownership. I believe it is to easy in some states to obtain a firearm.

Here is a link that shows concealed carry permit reciprocity maps

Concealed Carry Permit Reciprocity Maps - USA Carry

Edit: I also believe you should have to take a course and have a background check to own any firearm.
 
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Ndaccountant

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Hippa is a bitch and would need to factored in to any and all guns and mental health discussions. ACLU would have a fit.
 

dshans

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Well those damn neighbor kids won't run through your azaleas anymore...

Azaleas don't really grow in the northern tier. Rhododendrons, yes. I know, I know – azaleas ARE rhododendrons, but the bloom is not nearly as compact and dense.



Just thought you'd like to know.
 

woolybug25

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Hippa is a bitch and would need to factored in to any and all guns and mental health discussions. ACLU would have a fit.

I really don't see the issue. The patient is voluntarily giving the health information to the government in this sense. Nobody is forcing them to provide it, they are choosing to provide this health info. The government has the responsibility of not sharing it, but that's obviously assumed under hippa.

Not to mention, most law enforcement agencies and state agencies (like cps) aren't subject to hippa.

Your Rights Under HIPAA | HHS.gov
 

Bubbles

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Nobody dies from using Facebook, watching the Kardashians or listening to Rush Limbaugh, so your comparrison isn't really very good. People are being killed with far too much frequency by AR-15s (the weapon of choice of mass shooters in the United States). What is this happy medium of which you speak? Even things like expanded background checks and closing the gun show loophole are met with furious opposition from the NRA and gun rights advocates and their dumbass "slippery slope" arguments. Its as if their individual right to own a semi-automatic killing machine is more important than the lives of hundreds of people who are murdered every year at the hands of assholes who got their hands on these dangerous weapons.

Killings using rifles are barely a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme, ranking well behind handguns (by a factor of about 15), knives, blunt objects and hands/fists/feet. While mass killings definitely spark fear and anxiety, people are the problem. The slippery slope argument may seem dumbass to you and me, but the problem is you won't have a chance to pump the brakes before its too late.

As a simple example, let's say we do ban AR-15/10 rifles. Will that stop the terrorist attacks, or will it simply drive them to other types of semi-automatic rifles? So the next logical step is to ban all semi-automatic rifles. Then the crazies start using handguns. Mass killings may go down in severity, but I'm guessing they won't stop. So then we decide that any mass killings are unacceptable and ban all semi-automatic handguns because those killings have been on the rise (since we took away everything else).

None of the above is particularly hard to imagine. Firearm murders are on the decline, but we keep using sensationalism and the depraved acts of lunatics and terrorists to keep pushing the goal post. You want a solution? Enforcement and severe punishment. Caught trying to purchase a weapon illegally? Enjoy 10 years in prison with no chance of parole. Felon trying to circumvent a background check? Here's 20. We keep decriminalizing everything (because everyone is a victim in some way, right?) and wonder why evil people do evil things.

In Pennsylvania, the law is that no person shall possess a firearm if he or she is "a person who has been adjudicated as incompetent or involuntarily committed to a mental institution." That bar is fairly low.

I have a newphew who was born with mental deficiencies. I just ran into him this weekend at his youngest brother's HS graduation. Not only does he have a sidearm, but he has a licence to open carry it. I've known this kid his whole life, and I love him, but he has absolutely no business carrying a gun. He is extremely easy to convince of anything, and he's impulsive and quick tempered as hell. And, sadly, as with many people in his condition, he was relentlessly teased by ignorant kids his whole life ... and he never really handled it well. This is a recipe for disaster.

These background checks need to include more than just checking someone's criminal record and a rubber stamp. But, the "slippery slopers" go off the rails if anyone suggests that. At one point, polling indicated that 90% of the population wanted these laws expanded and the bought-and-paid-for politicians blocked a vote on a bill to do just that.

This is scary, and I honestly think you should have (if you haven't already) a serious conversation with his parents, and failing that, if you genuinely think he's a danger to himself or others, this might be a case of see something say something....or would that be considered bigotry/oppression? I've lost track....
 

DomerInHappyValley

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Nobody dies from using Facebook, watching the Kardashians or listening to Rush Limbaugh, so your comparrison isn't really very good. People are being killed with far too much frequency by AR-15s (the weapon of choice of mass shooters in the United States). What is this happy medium of which you speak? Even things like expanded background checks and closing the gun show loophole are met with furious opposition from the NRA and gun rights advocates and their dumbass "slippery slope" arguments. Its as if their individual right to own a semi-automatic killing machine is more important than the lives of hundreds of people who are murdered every year at the hands of assholes who got their hands on these dangerous weapons.




In Pennsylvania, the law is that no person shall possess a firearm if he or she is "a person who has been adjudicated as incompetent or involuntarily committed to a mental institution." That bar is fairly low.

I have a newphew who was born with mental deficiencies. I just ran into him this weekend at his youngest brother's HS graduation. Not only does he have a sidearm, but he has a licence to open carry it. I've known this kid his whole life, and I love him, but he has absolutely no business carrying a gun. He is extremely easy to convince of anything, and he's impulsive and quick tempered as hell. And, sadly, as with many people in his condition, he was relentlessly teased by ignorant kids his whole life ... and he never really handled it well. This is a recipe for disaster.

These background checks need to include more than just checking someone's criminal record and a rubber stamp. But, the "slippery slopers" go off the rails if anyone suggests that. At one point, polling indicated that 90% of the population wanted these laws expanded and the bought-and-paid-for politicians blocked a vote on a bill to do just that.
You realize isis is well known for their recruiting tatics on twitter. That the people watching the Kardashians are probably those trying to keep up with their friends and less likely to feel left out.
And well Rush is Rush find a way to pin something on him
And I'll help you google bomb it. Can't stand that guy.
But those are the 90% I'm not worried about. The ones who use it to promote their ideas of Islam or to glorify Harris and Klebold those are the ones I'm worried about because those are the ones speaking to the kids who feel left out, who feel alone and looking for some way to make life stand out cause those are the people willing to do these things.

PA is an OC state unless you're in a city of the first class (Philly).
If you're that concerned about your nephew you can petition the courts to have his rights removed, but good luck with that.
I went through a situation with my mother in law and having her moved to a group home and according to her case worker it's very rare the courts will take such a drastic step unless they can be shown to be an immediate threat to themselves or others. Plus there's the issues that will start within the family.

There's the start though find a way to attach a voluntary commit to a background check without violating HiPPA, but there will have to be a way to remove that from a check. Something like 4 or 5 years with a documented history with a therapist.

We can both agree that there's true psycho's out there and we'll never be able to stop them, but the problem is you want to blame the tool while I blame the asshole.
Blaming the gun though does nothing, so let's ban all guns then what happens when another Bath School disaster or Boston marathon bombing happens or France or Belgium?
That's why most people against a ban want to start with mental health issues first. Get at the root cause if you will and negate this shit before it turns into a tragedy. Will that stop every criminal mass shooting? No, but this indiscriminate bullshit that always hits the news it will hopefully put a damper on that, at least the school zone ones.
Then make the act of crime have some serious modifiers on it like they did with drugs. Rob a store with a firearm that's an automatic 25 year sentence no chance of parole.
Attack someone with a gun that's life, that will hopefully start getting the common criminal to stop using them.
 

Rack Em

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Azaleas don't really grow in the northern tier. Rhododendrons, yes. I know, I know – azaleas ARE rhododendrons, but the bloom is not nearly as compact and dense.



Just thought you'd like to know.

I really didn't.
 

Irish#1

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That's why I think the "slippery slope" argument applies here. We know we'll never prevent everything. So even if we pass what some call "common sense gun reforms," and then the next bad thing happens, they'll want more reforms, which won't prevent everything, and then the next bad thing happens, then they'll want more reforms, and on and on.

Not an apples to apples comparison, but that's how gambling has evolved in many states. First it was one riverboat only. Then there were two and three. Then the riverboat didn't have to cruise, it could stay docked to increase traffic and revenue. Then it was you could build a casino as long as it was part of a horse track.

That is exactly why I posted early about the NRA's staunch position.
 

GoIrish41

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Killings using rifles are barely a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme, ranking well behind handguns (by a factor of about 15), knives, blunt objects and hands/fists/feet. While mass killings definitely spark fear and anxiety, people are the problem. The slippery slope argument may seem dumbass to you and me, but the problem is you won't have a chance to pump the brakes before its too late.

As a simple example, let's say we do ban AR-15/10 rifles. Will that stop the terrorist attacks, or will it simply drive them to other types of semi-automatic rifles? So the next logical step is to ban all semi-automatic rifles. Then the crazies start using handguns. Mass killings may go down in severity, but I'm guessing they won't stop. So then we decide that any mass killings are unacceptable and ban all semi-automatic handguns because those killings have been on the rise (since we took away everything else).

None of the above is particularly hard to imagine. Firearm murders are on the decline, but we keep using sensationalism and the depraved acts of lunatics and terrorists to keep pushing the goal post. You want a solution? Enforcement and severe punishment. Caught trying to purchase a weapon illegally? Enjoy 10 years in prison with no chance of parole. Felon trying to circumvent a background check? Here's 20. We keep decriminalizing everything (because everyone is a victim in some way, right?) and wonder why evil people do evil things.



This is scary, and I honestly think you should have (if you haven't already) a serious conversation with his parents, and failing that, if you genuinely think he's a danger to himself or others, this might be a case of see something say something....or would that be considered bigotry/oppression? I've lost track....

On the bolded: You just described America coming to its senses ... Keep removing the things that people use for mass killings until they stop, or at least slow down to less than an average of one per day. That makes sense, does it not?

I'm also for the underlined portion. Lets do it.

Finally, I've had the conversation with the parents (former police officer and a nurse) but they support his constitutional right to carry (read, crazy Trump supporting uncle), and have alerted his county law enforcement of my concerns. But, he's a legal adult who has legally acquired a licence to carry a firearm. He does not have a criminal record. What do you think they are going to do about my concerns? My guess is nothing at all.
 

NorthDakota

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On the bolded: You just described America coming to its senses ... Keep removing the things that people use for mass killings until they stop, or at least slow down to less than an average of one per day. That makes sense, does it not?

No that sounds like an awful place.
 

Irish#1

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Even things like expanded background checks and closing the gun show loophole are met with furious opposition from the NRA and gun rights advocates and their dumbass "slippery slope" arguments. Its as if their individual right to own a semi-automatic killing machine is more important than the lives of hundreds of people who are murdered every year at the hands of assholes who got their hands on these dangerous weapons.

The problem here is it doesn't matter how strict you make the law or how many laws you pass this type of thing is still going to happen. Take away the AR-15 and anyone who wants to kill a large number of people will find another way to get a gun or another means for doing it, like a bomb.
 
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Irish#1

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They sell AR-15's at hardware stores in MI.

EB8643DB-867B-4AA6-A17D-6F01F1B1E21D_zpsbm1i3zuj.jpg


You know... Get a little fertilizer, some porch flowers, a couple tarps and your AR-15 of course.

Hell they sell food at Menards now. I remember when groceries stores only sold groceries. What's this world coming to?

Wait, am I onto something?
 

Ndaccountant

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I really don't see the issue. The patient is voluntarily giving the health information to the government in this sense. Nobody is forcing them to provide it, they are choosing to provide this health info. The government has the responsibility of not sharing it, but that's obviously assumed under hippa.

Not to mention, most law enforcement agencies and state agencies (like cps) aren't subject to hippa.

Your Rights Under HIPAA | HHS.gov

The head of the 2.2-million member American Legion has joined a number of organizations that worry a tweak to the federal privacy rule for gun control will stop veterans from seeking mental health treatment for fear it will violate their Second Amendment rights.

Others, however, hope HHS' expansion of access to behavioral-health information will lead to revisions in another key Code of Federal Regulations privacy rule, 42 CFR Part 2, which could further facilitate the sharing of some medical records. That 1970s-era law covers federally funded drug and alcohol treatment organizations, and by inference, the medical records of many behavioral-health patients.

The Obama administration this week announced a package of executive orders to prevent individuals from buying guns who legally shouldn't be allowed to do so.

Among the orders was HHS' release of a final rule that allows a select group of entities covered by the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act to disclose certain information about behavioral-health patients without their consent to the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). Under federal law, patients who have been committed to a mental institution or deemed "mentally defective" can be denied the right to purchase, carry or own a gun. Commercial gun dealers must do a background check on prospective gun purchasers through the NICS or similar state-run systems.

The revision affects only a small number of HIPAA-covered entities, such as “some state agencies, boards, commissions, or other lawful authorities outside the court system that are involved in some involuntary commitments of mental health adjudications,” the order states.

In a statement regarding the rule, Dale Barnett, the American Legion's national commander, said, “Nobody wants violent criminals or those with extreme mental disorders to have firearms.” But he added, “The American Legion strongly believes that treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder or depression by itself, which a number of wartime veterans experience, should not be the sole factor in denying a veteran the right to purchase a firearm. Barring some additional circumstances that would indicate that a veteran represents a dangerous threat, veterans should not have to forfeit their Second Amendment rights."

A fair reading to the 56-page rule, however, would indicate that neither a diagnosis of PTSD, nor of depression, by themselves, would trigger the court actions required to deprive an individual of gun ownership under federal gun laws. Still, the mere perception of a liberalization of HIPAA could have an impact, some commenters suggest.

Those who drafted the HHS rule said they have received similar concerns about its application within the Veterans Health Administration, the healthcare arm of the Veteran Affairs Department, and from others about the potential “chilling effect on individuals' willingness to discuss issues in treatment.”

A number of comments stated the rule might perpetuate stereotypes about behavioral-health patients “by sending a message to the public that (HHS) perceives mental illness as inextricably linked with violence.” The HHS rule said those concerns should be trumped by “an important public safety interest” in facilitating better reporting to the NICS.

Under existing law, the VA already is required to report information about troubled individuals to the U.S. Office of the Attorney General, which oversees the NICS. Thus, the rule change, “does not affect that requirement or change the procedures” relating to mental-disability determinations or reporting, HHS said.

However, the recent final HHS rule has renewed interest in changes to another federal privacy rule involving behavioral-health records—42 CFR Part 2. Under that law, providers of drug and alcohol abuse treatment are obligated to obtain a patient's consent before disclosing that patient's medical records to another general healthcare provider. The requirement to obtain the patient's prior consent stays with the record and must be met each time the record is moved.

“This isn't just a HIPAA issue,” said Angela Rose, director of health information management practice at the American Health Information Management Association, referring to the push to facilitate broader behavioral-health record exchanges between providers.

Matt Salo, executive director of the National Association of Medicaid Directors, agreed. “We're pushing pretty hard for exemptions for the existing guidelines around privacy. The 42 CFR stuff does need to happen, because there are a lot of people suffering because of it.”

Opponents, however, say the current rule should be maintained to protect the patient-clinician relationship and to assure patients fearful of being stigmatized that their records will be kept secure.

The Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration is still considering possible amendments to 42 CFR Part 2.

http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20160108/NEWS/160109918

This already has come up once this year.

Where are the results stored? Who has access to those results? How are they secured? Who administers the tests? What mental health issues prevent gun ownership and which ones don't? There are loads of questions and lots of details in a discussion like this. It can quickly spiral out of control. I am not saying it would be bad to offer up a screening that is suggested. I am just pointing out that there will be other groups that would have some serious concerns about the specifics of it.
 

ND-North

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I really don't see the issue. The patient is voluntarily giving the health information to the government in this sense. Nobody is forcing them to provide it, they are choosing to provide this health info. The government has the responsibility of not sharing it, but that's obviously assumed under hippa.

Not to mention, most law enforcement agencies and state agencies (like cps) aren't subject to hippa.

Your Rights Under HIPAA | HHS.gov

The problem with this argument is that it would further stigmatize mental health and deter people from seeking help if they think the consequence might limit their access to firearms. Mental health is already too stigmatized in this country and we don't want to give people more reasons to avoid therapists. Who knows, this might have been prevented if this guy had regular therapy.
 

Bubbles

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On the bolded: You just described America coming to its senses ... Keep removing the things that people use for mass killings until they stop, or at least slow down to less than an average of one per day. That makes sense, does it not?

I'm also for the underlined portion. Lets do it.

Finally, I've had the conversation with the parents (former police officer and a nurse) but they support his constitutional right to carry (read, crazy Trump supporting uncle), and have alerted his county law enforcement of my concerns. But, he's a legal adult who has legally acquired a licence to carry a firearm. He does not have a criminal record. What do you think they are going to do about my concerns? My guess is nothing at all.

I fail to see how not addressing the root of the problem is 'America coming to its senses'. In the hypothetical I posed, the number of murders doesn't change, simply the tool. If you really want what you propose, simply call for an outright ban on all firearms and stop beating around the bush. Let's just go all out authoritarian and be done with it.

There were some ~60 murders in Chicago in May....that's 2 per day. By what measure are mass killings more of a problem?

Since you agree on enforcement, I would propose we start there....give it a few years and reevaluate.
 

woolybug25

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http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20160108/NEWS/160109918

This already has come up once this year.

Where are the results stored? Who has access to those results? How are they secured? Who administers the tests? What mental health issues prevent gun ownership and which ones don't? There are loads of questions and lots of details in a discussion like this. It can quickly spiral out of control. I am not saying it would be bad to offer up a screening that is suggested. I am just pointing out that there will be other groups that would have some serious concerns about the specifics of it.

The American Legion can complain if they want, there's always someone complaining with any law change. But the rules are pretty clear, there are already state agencies exempt from hippa, so there really isn't anything they can do without changing laws themselves. They could go on debating whether ptsd should make people unable to purchase certain firearms, but I highly doubt they would have much luck convincing the American public that ptsd doesn't make people more apt to violence and/or unstable actions.

Bottom line, if people think the Feds are unable to get something like this done (which I find amusing, since they had no problem taking over healthcare in whole), then I would be interested in how they could remove said power from state agencies that currently already have that power.
 
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