Offensive Line Thread

[D-BOE34]

Addazio for Quinn?

 

[NDdomer2]

The SI article is interesting because it never mentions Quinn by name but certainly places the blame on his shoulders. Curious to see if Kelly tries to get out front of this or just doesn’t acknowledge it

Has he ever addressed an article before? He knows his team's issues, & an opinion piece from SI certainly isn't anything to "get out in front of"

 

[IrishLax]

I'll say it again... there is no way to know whether Quinn sucks or not. He doesn't call the blocking scheme, he was being asked to execute Long's playcalls. You could have the greatest DB coach in the country and if you were asked to coach within BVG's scheme you'd probably look like a clown because of what it asks your position group to do.

So I'm very ambivalent on him being replaced.

 

[Irish YJ]

I'll say it again... there is no way to know whether Quinn sucks or not. He doesn't call the blocking scheme, he was being asked to execute Long's playcalls. You could have the greatest DB coach in the country and if you were asked to coach within BVG's scheme you'd probably look like a clown because of what it asks your position group to do.

So I'm very ambivalent on him being replaced.

Haven't looked at the comparison, but HH coached under Long in 2017 and had a pretty good OL IIRC. The last 2 years not so much. Was Long's scheme in 2017 substantially different in 2017 than 2018 and 2019?

 

[Ndaccountant]

I'll say it again... there is no way to know whether Quinn sucks or not. He doesn't call the blocking scheme, he was being asked to execute Long's playcalls. You could have the greatest DB coach in the country and if you were asked to coach within BVG's scheme you'd probably look like a clown because of what it asks your position group to do.

So I'm very ambivalent on him being replaced.

Be that as it may, I am personally a bit suspicious of the article. From what I can tell with ND beats, critical pieces like this are not done in the shadows. So there is probably an angle here. Is it an early indication of Quinn being replaced? Is it something Long floated to place the blame somewhere else? I know that Coach D was never the biggest supporter of Quinn, but my guess is there is someone (or group of people) on staff that think the same way.

 

[IrishLax]

Be that as it may, I am personally a bit suspicious of the article. From what I can tell with ND beats, critical pieces like this are not done in the shadows. So there is probably an angle here. Is it an early indication of Quinn being replaced? Is it something Long floated to place the blame somewhere else? I know that Coach D was never the biggest supporter of Quinn, but my guess is there is someone (or group of people) on staff that think the same way.

IMO, that's all you need to know. The dude has never had sources, doesn't have sources now, and was the laughing stock of the internet for some of the crap pieces originally published on his corner of "Sports Illustrated." He's also simply wrong about a lot of stuff. I put no stock in anything Maven, the recently just got more egg on their face with the USC Helton thing.

Replacing Quinn could be good, or it could be bad. We'll see. Regardless, I think you will see the OL block much better in the run game next year.

 

[IrishLax]

Haven't looked at the comparison, but HH coached under Long in 2017 and had a pretty good OL IIRC. The last 2 years not so much. Was Long's scheme in 2017 substantially different in 2017 than 2018 and 2019?

Some thoughts on that:
1. Having two top ten picks allows you to succeed in stuff that other players might not be able to do. Quenton Nelson, especially, was insanely good as a pulling guard.
2. I do believe there were differences in how the run game was coordinated in 2017 as in 2019. If you go watch what they did with Wimbush versus what they did this year it is not apples to apples. I don't remember 2017 well enough thought to get into specifics, maybe someone can help me out. But they definitely ran more QB draws and other designed runs for Wimbush, and the zone read was incredibly dangerous.
3. Even with the insane talent on the OL in 2017, really good teams like Georgia shut down the running game because they shot gaps and otherwise found ways to get penetration. There were a lot of negative plays and a lot of stuffs that should not happen that frequently with the talent they had. This is the same issue we saw rear its ugly head multiple times this year.

 

[BobbyMac]

Haven't looked at the comparison, but HH coached under Long in 2017 and had a pretty good OL IIRC. The last 2 years not so much. Was Long's scheme in 2017 substantially different in 2017 than 2018 and 2019?

You would have won the Joe Moore Award coaching ND is 2017. Come on man.

HH was a serial underachiever at ND most years. And I can't tell you if it was him not being able to develop anyone past his handful of All American's or if he too suffered from schemes that stressed cuteness over effectiveness.

 

[ThePiombino]

Apart from the recruiting bit Quinn is starting to look like BVG

#hottake Koon, dat you?

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Irish YJ]

Some thoughts on that:
1. Having two top ten picks allows you to succeed in stuff that other players might not be able to do. Quenton Nelson, especially, was insanely good as a pulling guard.
2. I do believe there were differences in how the run game was coordinated in 2017 as in 2019. If you go watch what they did with Wimbush versus what they did this year it is not apples to apples. I don't remember 2017 well enough thought to get into specifics, maybe someone can help me out. But they definitely ran more QB draws and other designed runs for Wimbush, and the zone read was incredibly dangerous.
3. Even with the insane talent on the OL in 2017, really good teams like Georgia shut down the running game because they shot gaps and otherwise found ways to get penetration. There were a lot of negative plays and a lot of stuffs that should not happen that frequently with the talent they had. This is the same issue we saw rear its ugly head multiple times this year.

I agree on the two top 10 picks in 17, but is that developing? I'm going to have to look at recruiting closer tomorrow.

I think Book is running enough QB designed runs, and probably coached to bail more than folks think.

On 2017 UGA, I think the Dawgs concentrated on our run, and didn't respect our passing to be honest. Wimbush's 3 fumbles didn't help. Adams had more catching yards than our WRs.

I don't totally rule out scheme being a factor, but I don't totally buy it yet either.

You would have won the Joe Moore Award coaching ND is 2017. Come on man.

HH was a serial underachiever at ND most years. And I can't tell you if it was him not being able to develop anyone past his handful of All American's or if he too suffered from schemes that stressed cuteness over effectiveness.

So we had like 3 or 4 1st round picks during his 6 year tenure with 2 or 3 additional in 2nd and 3rd rounds. Before that, how many? Do you see any OL currently playing at ND that will go 1st round or 2nd? You think Quinn would even get sniffed by the NFL? He's getting questioned at his first and only P5 stop where he's been the recipient of some very nice OL recruits. I just don't feel any nastiness from our OL like I used to going back to Wild Bill's post.

I don't disagree with LAX in that it may be scheme, but it's an unknown, not a definite.

 

[NDdomer2]

Some thoughts on that:
1. Having two top ten picks allows you to succeed in stuff that other players might not be able to do. Quenton Nelson, especially, was insanely good as a pulling guard.
2. I do believe there were differences in how the run game was coordinated in 2017 as in 2019. If you go watch what they did with Wimbush versus what they did this year it is not apples to apples. I don't remember 2017 well enough thought to get into specifics, maybe someone can help me out. But they definitely ran more QB draws and other designed runs for Wimbush, and the zone read was incredibly dangerous.
3. Even with the insane talent on the OL in 2017, really good teams like Georgia shut down the running game because they shot gaps and otherwise found ways to get penetration. There were a lot of negative plays and a lot of stuffs that should not happen that frequently with the talent they had. This is the same issue we saw rear its ugly head multiple times this year.

1. Also included are a drafted RB, and a RB who went undrafted but actually started a few NFL games, starting center was a senior who started for 3 years (iirc), and a right tackle who is currently a back up on NFL team after some serious knee injuries.

1a. Colts still use Q on pulling schemes like crazy. Dude is amazing.

2. Not only does Wimbush make a difference here, but when in doubt we just went power run game to the left and said someone beat our two future NFL starters.

3. Exactly, Shooting gaps is a direct result of the scheme's our OL are asked to do.

Further - As NDCrus has pointed out, even with some unbelievable talent, HH didn't quite have our oline performing at an overall top 10 level. See the chart posted before - there are some individual stats where they would rank in the top 10, but then have some metrics fall in the 80-130 range.

As there isnt any great way to come up with some sort of "final" grade of our oline. I took the rankings from the chart I put together earlier and came up with a final average ranking.

Using this, 2017 was our clear best year of oline play from 14-19, with an average ranking of 35.3. Next best two were 14 and 15 (42, 44 respectively). our 2016 oline that had all the same starters as 2017 and two guys who chose to come back from NFL performed at the 51st best level in football (our 2019 oline performed at the 50.5 level).

2018 was the clear outlier here at 77.9, the first year after losing two NFL first rounders and losing our starting LT early in season. 2019 oline played within 7 spots of HH's average oline from the period of 14-17 of 43.3.

Quinn returns every starter next year. If the oline performs around the 35th overall ranking then he will have almost identical two year progression as HH's oline with two first round OL (that Quinn doesnt have)

 

[BobbyMac]

1. Also included are a drafted RB, and a RB who went undrafted but actually started a few NFL games, starting center was a senior who started for 3 years (iirc), and a right tackle who is currently a back up on NFL team after some serious knee injuries.

1a. Colts still use Q on pulling schemes like crazy. Dude is amazing.

2. Not only does Wimbush make a difference here, but when in doubt we just went power run game to the left and said someone beat our two future NFL starters.

3. Exactly, Shooting gaps is a direct result of the scheme's our OL are asked to do.

Further - As NDCrus has pointed out, even with some unbelievable talent, HH didn't quite have our oline performing at an overall top 10 level. See the chart posted before - there are some individual stats where they would rank in the top 10, but then have some metrics fall in the 80-130 range.

As there isnt any great way to come up with some sort of "final" grade of our oline. I took the rankings from the chart I put together earlier and came up with a final average ranking.

Using this, 2017 was our clear best year of oline play from 14-19, with an average ranking of 35.3. Next best two were 14 and 15 (42, 44 respectively). our 2016 oline that had all the same starters and two guys who chose to come back from NFL performed at the 51st best level in football (our 2019 oline performed at the 50.5 level).

2018 was the clear outlier here at 77.9, the first year after losing two NFL first rounders and losing our starting LT early. 2019 oline played within 7 spots of HH's average oline from the period of 14-17 of 43.3.

He returns every starter next year. If the oline performs around the 35th overall ranking then he will have almost identical two year progression as HH's oline with two first round OL.

This is why I think him and Rees would make a good Co-OC tandem. He's in charge of the run game, Tommy's in charge of passing. Then we'll have apples to apples to know where the line is at. If you bring in "innovative" mind at OC, you are essentially starting over with an OL roster that wasn't recruited for what the new guy wants to do.

 

[NDdomer2]

This is why I think him and Rees would make a good Co-OC tandem. He's in charge of the run game, Tommy's in charge of passing. Then we'll have apples to apples to know where the line is at. If you bring in "innovative" mind at OC, you are essentially starting over with an OL roster that wasn't recruited for what the new guy wants to do.

Pass protection has been very good under Quinn and as it looks like the future of the offense isnt going to be so based on having a zone read QB, I think this plays well into the Quinn/Rees combo.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

I appreciate that they're pretty limited with the data available but the FO offensive line rankings are kind of pointless. They do not adjust for opponent; do not make any distinction between rushing plays of 8 vs. 80 yards; and do not make any distinction between QB runs and QB scrambles.

The system will systematically overrate downhill rushing teams with lead footed quarterbacks. A team with a scrambling QB who designs plays to run horizontally in the hope of hitting big plays will be systematically underrated.

It's build from an NFL rating system where running the football takes on a different role because there are fewer big plays at that level.

 

[china423]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Bears?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Bears</a> are firing offensive coordinator Mark Helfrich and offensive line coach Harry Hiestand.</p>— Adam Jahns (@adamjahns) <a href="https://twitter.com/adamjahns/status/1212075318099554305?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 31, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[condoms SUCk]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Bears?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Bears</a> are firing offensive coordinator Mark Helfrich and offensive line coach Harry Hiestand.</p>— Adam Jahns (@adamjahns) <a href="https://twitter.com/adamjahns/status/1212075318099554305?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 31, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Go get him, keep Quinn on staff for OL recruiting. Best of both worlds.

 

[greyhammer90]

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmm.

 

[Irish#1]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Bears?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Bears</a> are firing offensive coordinator Mark Helfrich and offensive line coach Harry Hiestand.</p>— Adam Jahns (@adamjahns) <a href="https://twitter.com/adamjahns/status/1212075318099554305?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 31, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Go get him, keep Quinn on staff for OL recruiting. Best of both worlds.

Make the call BK.

Amazing how many coaches can go from the apex to getting canned even though they have shown they know what they are doing.

 

[317Irish]

Go get him, keep Quinn on staff for OL recruiting. Best of both worlds.

Just to be clear, which one are you asking BK to go after? Would you consider either one to be beneficial to our team?

 

[IrishLax]

Go get him, keep Quinn on staff for OL recruiting. Best of both worlds.

Quinn as TE coach and maybe add some other responsibilities.

 

[notredomer23]

Just to be clear, which one are you asking BK to go after? Would you consider either one to be beneficial to our team?

Heistand is the best OL coach we have had since Holtz, maybe ever. Bringing him back in any capacity would be huge.

 

[KizerWilhelm]

Move Quinn to TE coach, hire Harry, badda bing badda boom

 

[condoms SUCk]

Just to be clear, which one are you asking BK to go after? Would you consider either one to be beneficial to our team?

Go after Coach Hiestand, move Coach Quinn to TE Coach or move him to another role where he can recruit. Coach H can coach the OL and Coach Q can do the recruiting. (Best of both worlds)

 

[Whiskeyjack]

[webm]https://i.imgur.com/TB5clix.mp4[/webm]

Move Quinn to TE coach, hire Harry, badda bing badda boom

 

[rtrn2glory]

Helfrich has connections to BK too I think

Bring both??

 

[koonja]

I have no idea if it'd be the right move, but if you told me:



- Helfirch at OC

- Harry at OL

- Quinn moved to TEs

Talk about continuity. You keep Quinn and fill a void. You bring in Harry who recruited all of the starters besides Patterson, and Helfrich and Harry know how to work together.

I'd be very excited by the prospect of that.

 

[Irish#1]

You could hire HH and move Quinn to QB coach after Tommy gets promoted.

 

[EvilleIrish]

I have no idea if it'd be the right move, but if you told me:



- Helfirch at OC

- Harry at OL

- Quinn moved to TEs

Talk about continuity. You keep Quinn and fill a void. You bring in Harry who recruited all of the starters besides Patterson, and Helfrich and Harry know how to work together.

I'd be very excited by the prospect of that.

What position would Helfrich coach though?

 

[Irishize]

Hiestand’s family still living in South Bend

 

[koonja]

What position would Helfrich coach though?

OC.

I'm not in love with the Tommy Rees as OC concept. If he shined in the bowl game against an inferior opponent, maybe I'd be open to it.

But 3 weeks to prepare, inferior opponent, coaching for a promotion... and my only thought after watching was "if that was Chip Long's play calling I'd be disappointed".