Offensive Line Thread

[irishff1014]

Now that the regular season is over, let's take a look at how the OL performed: the usual borderline elite stats in pass protection (15th in unadjusted sack rate), but a middling 56th in ALY.

Even with the injuries, it still feels like we're significantly underperforming our talent level. My skepticism of Quinn as Hiestand's successor hasn't changed.

I think Quinn puts more effort on the recruiting trail than HH did. But I don’t think they played as well.

 

[Luckylucci]

I wonder if there are some accountability issues with the OL. I can’t get over how sloppy Banks looks, for example. Makes me wonder about the talk about HH was wearing thin on some of his players and if that pendulum has now swung too far in the other direction.

 

[zelezo vlk]

I wonder if there are some accountability issues with the OL. I can’t get over how sloppy Banks looks, for example. Makes me wonder about the talk about HH was wearing thin on some of his players and if that pendulum has now swung too far in the other direction.

The silver lining to the Hainsey and Kramer injuries would be at the least Lugg getting a ton of reps and looking good to an extent. Perhaps he could push for playing time in the spring and provide competition for either Banks or Hainsey (who could then compete at LG with Banks).

 

[NDdomer2]

I am not sure what changed with metrics for line yards and sack rates after 2017 - they dotn appear to be in the same format. We are missing two years of Hiestand's time with ND as data only went to 2014.

Overall, we ran the ball much better during Hiestand's time, but appear to be protecting the QB better with Quinn (all on average).

Interested to see how much these are impacted by WHO the running backs are.

Our power success rates with Adams and Williams have been by far the best 3 of any of the charted years.

Moving away from the zone blocking scheme has also appeared to negatively impacted our stuff rate. Not sure if we can put this on Quinn or not.

 

[deise mike]

I am not sure what changed with metrics for line yards and sack rates after 2017 - they dotn appear to be in the same format. We are missing two years of Hiestand's time with ND as data only went to 2014.

Overall, we ran the ball much better during Hiestand's time, but appear to be protecting the QB better with Quinn (all on average).

Interested to see how much these are impacted by WHO the running backs are.

Our power success rates with Adams and Williams have been by far the best 3 of any of the charted years.

Moving away from the zone blocking scheme has also appeared to negatively impacted our stuff rate. Not sure if we can put this on Quinn or not.

As an Englishman living in Ireland my technical knowledge of OL line play is limited. I watch between 4and 6 college games a week and am able to see when things go wrong, obvious double teams etc but not the intricacies.

My first question about run blocking recently is whether the holes are just not being created or the running backs are not finding them or they are not talented enough to exploit them fully when they get there.

As for the above table? Someone simplify or highlight the most important detail. I don’t know if it’s my lack of football knowledge or my lack of statistical knowledge that’s letting me down. Probably both!

 

[NDdomer2]

As an Englishman living in Ireland my technical knowledge of OL line play is limited. I watch between 4and 6 college games a week and am able to see when things go wrong, obvious double teams etc but not the intricacies.

My first question about run blocking recently is whether the holes are just not being created or the running backs are not finding them or they are not talented enough to exploit them fully when they get there.

As for the above table? Someone simplify or highlight the most important detail. I don’t know if it’s my lack of football knowledge or my lack of statistical knowledge that’s letting me down. Probably both!

running success is never typically a 1 issue thing. Its a combination of items of which maybe there is usually 1 more glaring. So not creating holes, not finding them, lack of talent is all mixed in to some degree.

I would say our biggest issue is RB talent, second is most likely scheme fit. There are others here who are much more into offensive line play than I (i can talk WR play and coverages all day).

As for the table. each category has a Rank column immediately after which shows where ND ranked in that category for the year compared to all D1 teams. What is most important probably depends on what we are asking our offensive line to do (and spend the most time on in practice). While creating huge chunks of yardage is always desirable, in my experience eliminating bad or negative plays has always been harped on more than getting 3 yards vs 5. So i would say stuff rates and sack rates are things I tend to look at the most.

 

[Wild Bill]

I wonder if there are some accountability issues with the OL. I can’t get over how sloppy Banks looks, for example. Makes me wonder about the talk about HH was wearing thin on some of his players and if that pendulum has now swung too far in the other direction.

It is not in the nature of offensive linemen to work hard. Most are lazy by nature, tend to be soft, and get by in high school with superior size and strength. They're like lumps of clay that must be formed. IMO, the best way to form them is with absolute authority, intense coaching and tough love.

What makes the position even more difficult to coach is that 1. you are almost always at a disadvantage during one on one drills with defensive linemen and 2. monotonous repetition is the key factor in making them better, both individually and as a unit. Regarding the first point - you learn a whole lot by getting your ass kicked by defensive linemen. The coach has to walk a fine line of being critical and demanding while simultaneously building their confidence. This is especially true with young linemen. Regarding the second point, it's so easy to just go through the motions when you're doing footwork drills and hand drills, i.e., coming off the ball or getting in a pass drop. While the rest of the team is playing catch and having fun, the oline is all alone somewhere in the distance doing tedious work on their technique. Without a demanding coach, most units just begin to graze and talk about what they had for lunch. I prefer a coach that demands perfection on every rep and is simply unwilling to accept a lazy half ass rep. They may talk shit about their coach after practice but they'll be better and their mutual dislike for their coach's demeanor may bring them closer together as a unit.

Just one man's opinion. Maybe I'm being overly harsh but I played on the oline or with the oline for over a decade and in my experience, the hard ass coach always got more out of his linemen than the player's coach. If my son plays oline one day, I'd want him to play for a demanding coach. He'll be better off in the end.

 

[NDMIA]

Football Outsiders
2019 College Football Offensive Line Stats
Thru Week 14

Here are the combined rankings of offensive lines that spits out the overall offensive lines in the country. Usually a pretty good metric at portraying OLines in college football. Joe Moore Award usually goes to a top 5 Power 5 team. Here is the list of only Power 5 schools ranked 1-65.

1. Clemson
2. Boston College
3. Georgia
4. Colorado
5. Texas Tech
6. Alabama
7. Oklahoma
8. Washington State
9. Wisconsin
10. Ohio State
11. Auburn
12. Oregon
13. Utah
14. Kentucky
15. LSU
16. TCU
17. Washington
18. Arkansas
19. Mississippi State
20. Oregon State
21. Texas
22. Notre Dame
23. Arizona
24. Wake Forest
25. Iowa State
26. Iowa
27. Oklahoma State
28. Penn State
29. Michigan
30. USC
31. Minnesota
32. Tennessee
33. Baylor
34. Texas A&M
35. South Carolina
36. Stanford
37. Pittsburgh
38. Virginia
39. Nebraska
40. Kansas State
41. Rutgers
42. Arizona State
43. Missouri
44. NC State
45. Ole Miss
46. Indiana
47. Illinois
48. Michigan State
49. Northwestern
50. Duke
51. North Carolina
52. UCLA
53. Vanderbilt
54. Florida
55. West Virginia
56. Kansas
57. Virginia Tech
58. Louisville
59. California
60. Georgia Tech
61. Syracuse
62. Maryland
63. Purdue
64. Miami
65. Florida State

A couple of observations. Notre Dame overall had a solid OLine this year. Last year they finished at 45th in Power 5, so we saw improvement. From a talent perspective, I believe this should've been a top 15 OLine in Power 5 football, but a couple of injuries and inconsistencies hurt their prowess. With everyone outside of Trevor Ruhland expected to return, the OLine should be poised to have a top 10 season in these rankings. I'd be surprised if they didn't. We'll need to see improvements from many of the individuals on this line, but I think they can get to another level! Bringing back 13 experienced players into this coming offseason is huge. They should have tremendous depth along the OLine next season and hopefully that continues for the years to come.

 

[NDMIA]

Also not related to ND's OLine, but Clemson's OLine is crazy good. Like, crazy crazy good. They don't really have much NFL talent there right now other than John Simpson maybe but they are very good as a unit. Also it amazes me how year after year the UM and FSU teams consistently rank towards the bottom of the country in OLine play. This year it is literally bottom 1 and 2 in Power 5 football which is embarrassing for the kind of resources that those programs have. They really need to put an emphasis on recruiting OLineman to those schools because playoff teams and conference champs litter the top of the list of best OLine but not the bottom at all.

 

[TP81989]

Football Outsiders
2019 College Football Offensive Line Stats
Thru Week 14

Here are the combined rankings of offensive lines that spits out the overall offensive lines in the country. Usually a pretty good metric at portraying OLines in college football. Joe Moore Award usually goes to a top 5 Power 5 team. Here is the list of only Power 5 schools ranked 1-65.

1. Clemson
2. Boston College
3. Georgia
4. Colorado
5. Texas Tech
6. Alabama
7. Oklahoma
8. Washington State
9. Wisconsin
10. Ohio State
11. Auburn
12. Oregon
13. Utah
14. Kentucky
15. LSU
16. TCU
17. Washington
18. Arkansas
19. Mississippi State
20. Oregon State
21. Texas
22. Notre Dame
23. Arizona
24. Wake Forest
25. Iowa State
26. Iowa
27. Oklahoma State
28. Penn State
29. Michigan
30. USC
31. Minnesota
32. Tennessee
33. Baylor
34. Texas A&M
35. South Carolina
36. Stanford
37. Pittsburgh
38. Virginia
39. Nebraska
40. Kansas State
41. Rutgers
42. Arizona State
43. Missouri
44. NC State
45. Ole Miss
46. Indiana
47. Illinois
48. Michigan State
49. Northwestern
50. Duke
51. North Carolina
52. UCLA
53. Vanderbilt
54. Florida
55. West Virginia
56. Kansas
57. Virginia Tech
58. Louisville
59. California
60. Georgia Tech
61. Syracuse
62. Maryland
63. Purdue
64. Miami
65. Florida State

A couple of observations. Notre Dame overall had a solid OLine this year. Last year they finished at 45th in Power 5, so we saw improvement. From a talent perspective, I believe this should've been a top 15 OLine in Power 5 football, but a couple of injuries and inconsistencies hurt their prowess. With everyone outside of Trevor Ruhland expected to return, the OLine should be poised to have a top 10 season in these rankings. I'd be surprised if they didn't. We'll need to see improvements from many of the individuals on this line, but I think they can get to another level! Bringing back 13 experienced players into this coming offseason is huge. They should have tremendous depth along the OLine next season and hopefully that continues for the years to come.

I'd like to know how they come up with these rankings. It's hard to believe Colorado had a top 5 O-line when their longest run was 32 yards and averaged 4.1 ypc.

 

[Dizzyphil]

I'd like to know how they come up with these rankings. It's hard to believe Colorado had a top 5 O-line when their longest run was 32 yards and averaged 4.1 ypc.

Allowed 21 sacks too.....

 

[deise mike]

Arkansas at 18?

 

[snoopdog]

Boston College at 2? I watched that game. BC 128 yds rushing, ND 252?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Now that the regular season is over, let's take a look at how the OL performed: the usual borderline elite stats in pass protection (15th in unadjusted sack rate), but a middling 56th in ALY.

Even with the injuries, it still feels like we're significantly underperforming our talent level. My skepticism of Quinn as Hiestand's successor hasn't changed.

I think their ranking in pass pro is somewhat overrated. Book often bails them out with his feet. If you put a QB back there like Jake Fromm or Justin Herbert, those sack numbers go up.

 

[NDRock]

I think their ranking in pass pro is somewhat overrated. Book often bails them out with his feet. If you put a QB back there like Jake Fromm or Justin Herbert, those sack numbers go up.

I actually thought the opposite, Book often wouldn’t pull the trigger. A more decisive QB gets the ball out quicker. I just assume we are always better in pass pro because we emphasize it much more. Most of the practice reports I read seemed indicate more time being spent on the passing game. Pretty typical since Kelly arrived.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

I don’t have 2019 numbers but Pro Football Focus said this about Book’s 2018 season:

As a first-year starter, Book bailed on the pocket far too often and had the most pressures allocated to himself among all college football quarterbacks (29 total). Out of those 29 pressures, 18 ended as a sack which was seven more than any other college quarterback. This type of instinct is as expected from a first-year college starter, and it has been proven that performance under pressure is unstable from year to year, so as a result, if Book trusts the pocket and his offensive line, good things will come.

 

[Irish YJ]

Here's the breakdown for those that asked, and definitions. IMO, Power Success Rate is the most important gauge, and is where we did the poorest. I also think the passing ratings are far too reliant on just sacks as a gauge. I'd say Book's happy feet has bailed them out a lot in that space too. Is some of the running grades due to having a poor crop of RBs, or is it just the opposite?

Overall I'm with Whiskey Jack that they've under performed, and agree with a lot of what Wild Bill said.

Line Yards - 58th
Standard Downs Line Yards - 70th
Pass Downs Line yards - 41st
Opportunity Rank - 73rd
Power Success Rate - 90th
Stuff Rate - 73rd
Sack Rate - 16th
Standard Downs Sack Rate - 28th
Passing Downs Sack Rate - 15th

Line Yards per Carry: For 2018, we are experimenting with a new definition for college line yardage based on film study and generalization. Instead of the ALY figure FO used for the NFL, this one is tighter: the line gets credit for rushing yardage between 0-3 yards (instead of 0-4) and 50% credit for yards 4-8 (instead of 5-10). Anything over 8 yards is quantified as a highlight opportunity, and credit goes to the runner. As with the pro definition, lost yardage still counts for 125%. (Garbage time is filtered out for all line yardage averages.)

Standard Downs Line Yards per Carry: The raw, unadjusted per-carry line yardage for a team on standard downs (first down, second-and-7 or fewer, third-and-4 or fewer, fourth-and-4 or fewer).

Passing Downs Line Yards per Carry: The same unadjusted averages for rushing on passing downs.

Opportunity Rate: The percentage of carries (when four yards are available) that gain at least four yards, i.e. the percentage of carries in which the line does its job, so to speak.

Power Success Rate: This is the same as on the NFL side -- percentage of runs on third or fourth down, two yards or less to go, that achieved a first down or touchdown.

Stuff Rate: Same as STUFFED on the NFL side -- percentage of carries by running backs that are stopped at or before the line of scrimmage.

Sack Rate: Unadjusted sack rate for all non-garbage time pass attempts.

Standard Downs Sack Rate: Unadjusted sack rate for standard downs pass attempts.

Passing Downs Sack Rate: Unadjusted sack rate for passing downs pass attempts.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I really don't want to see year 3 of Quinn. His recruiting has been lights out, but that doesn't mean anything when they fail to produce. Could be scheme, could be RB play. But either way, I have been underwhelmed.

 

[IrishLax]

I really don't want to see year 3 of Quinn. His recruiting has been lights out, but that doesn't mean anything when they fail to produce. Could be scheme, could be RB play. But either way, I have been underwhelmed.

I want him to have a season without Chip Long dictating the blocking scheme with his play calls. I truly have no idea whether he is a good coach or not because he hasn’t really been put in a position to succeed IMO.

 

[greyhammer90]

I want him to have a season without Chip Long dictating the blocking scheme with his play calls. I truly have no idea whether he is a good coach or not because he hasn’t really been put in a position to succeed IMO.

Tbf Allen (when healthy) and Dexter seemed to do ok in the system.

 

[Circa]

I think their ranking in pass pro is somewhat overrated. Book often bails them out with his feet. If you put a QB back there like Jake Fromm or Justin Herbert, those sack numbers go up.

Is this how all schools are ranked? We had a bad run game this year and that's not questionable. Tony Jones was a trooper but he's not the back that'll get us the type of pedigree we have been used to.

 

[Cali_domer]

https://www.si.com/college/notredam...football-run-game-needs-dramatic-improvement/

 

[NDMIA]

The RB’s room is one of the least talented BK has ever had while he’s been at ND. From a recruiting standpoint it’s littered with 3*’s and guys changing positions. From a talent standpoint, there just isn’t any. I’ve got hope for Kyren Williams and Chris Tyree but really nobody else. People are rooting for a Georgia Southern/Tech commit to become the #1 RB when he’s shown absolutely nothing statistically and has actually been the worst one of the RB group this season. People say Tony Jones Jr plays hard and that’s great but has he made a single person miss in 4 years of running the ball??? The ineptitude of the RB is ridiculous at this point. For next year I hope Jafar Armstrong can be fully healthy and give ND a 5-10 carry a game guy along with Tyree and Kyren Williams. After that, maybe bring in C’Bo or Tony Jones Jr for small roles but frankly I don’t really care about anybody other than Kyren, Chris and hopefully the 2021 guy for the 2021 season. I hope they prove me wrong but I think the RB room was the worst position group on the team and it wasn’t close this year.

 

[Irish#1]

I miss Harry.

 

[Valpodoc85]

Apart from the recruiting bit Quinn is starting to look like BVG

 

[NDdomer2]

Apart from the recruiting bit Quinn is starting to look like BVG

Lol no where close

 

[Valpodoc85]

Just seems his loyalty to friends clouds his judgement at times

 

[ND88]

Just seems his loyalty to friends clouds his judgement at times

It’s certainly a curious world being a head coach. I wonder if it’s actually more difficult to hire friends, especially when they don’t quite pan out.

 

[Valpodoc85]

The SI article is interesting because it never mentions Quinn by name but certainly places the blame on his shoulders. Curious to see if Kelly tries to get out front of this or just doesn’t acknowledge it

 

[ND88]

The SI article is interesting because it never mentions Quinn by name but certainly places the blame on his shoulders. Curious to see if Kelly tries to get out front of this or just doesn’t acknowledge it

It seems like the consensus here on the boards for those with some knowledge is that Quinn is coaching the wrong position group. I've read thoughts about making him a joint OC with Kelly and finding an OL coach to replace him, that way he saves face and is unleashed to do what he can do best.